DCU Masters Project Idea

[sheao]

For my major project/dissertation from my masters in DCU, I have decided to focus on the Soccer Culture In Ireland .

I think this would make a fascinating feature.

I would like to answer questions such as why do thousands and thousands of Irish people flock off in their droves to England every weekend, when there is a League in Ireland which they could support.


Another thing that I could do is see how you once got 30,000-40,000 + going to games in the 60s and 70s, yet games now in 2017 only get 3,000- 4,000 at most, very often less in the case of many clubs.


I want to have a look at when an Irish consortium tried to bring Wimbledon and Premiership soccer to Ireland in the 1990s.


Basically, I also could ask the question, how and why have attendance figures at games dropped so drastically over time.


Finally for now, I could look at the future marketing and promotion of the League Of Ireland as a whole.


The Irish Supporters Network are an organisation I have been in touch with already in that regard.


Their main objectives include promoting the benefits and importance of Ireland's national soccer league.


The Irish Supporters Network have an event on in March , which I will be attending to make initial contact with some of the different League Of Ireland clubs and their supporters.


A link to the event is here:


http://irishsupportersnetwork.ie/index.php/2017/02/23/towards-a-sustainable-league-event/ (http://irishsupportersnetwork.ie/index.php/2017/02/23/towards-a-sustainable-league-event/)


These are just very rough ideas. But based on my reading and research done so far, I think this could work and there are some brilliant areas to discuss.


So, I was just wondering if you would have any ideas for who I could take to on any of the above, or also if have any suggestions for areas I could cover on this topic not mentioned above ?


Or also in relation to the above, is there any people who you would think would be good interviewees ?

[Kingswood Rover]

Yep why its called soccer outside of Dublin AFAIK, growing up in Dublin we played football and or GAA, soccer as far as i knew was the american word for football. lo and behold move 28 miles down the Naas road and football is GAA and soccer is football.

[littlebray]

You'll find "soccer" (and sometimes "Socker") in Irish newspapers as far back as 1901.

[outspoken]

Never will be soccer as far as I'm concerned

[BonnieShels]

Always been soccer for me. I never understand the knicker twisting over this.

[osarusan]

There's a lot of stuff there to cover. Too much I'd say, and I think there are elements that aren't really connected to each other.

I imagine you have some central research question or connected questions - what are they?

One that would cover most of what you've written is 'What has been the impact of British football on the League of Ireland?' but even that is a massive, unwieldy topic.

[nigel-harps1954]

Soccer of football is just personal preference. I don't think there's anything more to it. I find myself saying soccer from time to time, and like Bonnie, don't get why people get so wound up over it.

People flock to England and Scotland down to it being historically embedded in Irish footballing society. People won't support football here until we've regular Champions League and Europa League entrants, bigger more fancy stadia, more widespread marketing, more exotic squad lists and recognisable faces from world football....and really, every club to win the Euromillions.

Attendance figures dropped as a result of the Sky Sports phenomenon. Nothing can compete with a marketing machine like it. The standard of the league dropped dramatically over a twenty year period through the 80's and 90's here too, and didn't grow with the rest of the European game. As Sky leagues grew, the Irish game was hindered. Football was available at the touch of a button on your television. The switch to Friday nights from Sunday afternoons hit young families, and a drastic change that didn't work. English football is full of young families attending. It's harder to take a young child to a game in Ireland kicking off at 8pm when they'd normally be getting ready for bed.

[Philosophizer]

There are numerous reasons why irish ppl support the PL instead of our own league, but I’ll try to briefly cover what I believe to be the main issues:

Style of Irish sporting fandom: Irish ppl are (and have always been) event junkies when it comes to sport. This is probably due to the influence of GAA fandom. GAA teams only have a handful of really big matches each year, so most supporters only go to see their team a handful of times a year. That’s always the way it’s been. This culture has been deeply ingrained for well over a century and influences how most Irish ppl follow most other sports too. Basically, most ppl don’t like the slog of a long season, with a lot of humdrum fixtures. We’d rather just go to a few important, glamorous, high-profile games each year. This trend is probably true in most countries but it’s definitely exaggerated in Ireland, compared to Britain, Germany or Spain for eg, where football/soccer has always been the main sport and following your team through a lengthy season was the natural way to support them.

Media exposure: As media exposure (especially television coverage) of British football teams increased in Ireland from the 60s/70s onwards, this coincided with a decline in the popularity of our own league. Ppl were drawn to the glory and glamour of successful British teams, which they hadn’t much exposure to previously. British teams were invariably richer and better than Irish teams so once Irish ppl had exposure to these British teams through the media they quickly made allegiances to a British side, at the expense of their local LOI side. Understandably, most ppl want to be associated with a team that is successful and glamorous so naturally most Irish football fans latched onto Liverpool, Man Utd, Celtic, Arsenal, Leeds etc. This pattern still rings true to this day, as seen by the boom in Irish kids supporting Chelsea and Man City since they became majorly successful.
It’s a vicious cycle. The more irish ppl are attracted to British football the more they are likely to support it financially, and the less likely they are to support our own league, so it inevitably falls further behind, mainly due to lack of funding. Nowadays, our league is so far behind the British league in terms of stadia, infrastructure, marketing, media exposure, etc, it’s unlikely we’ll ever get back to anything like the popularity that LOI soccer had back in its hay-day.
In fact, we’ve come to a point now where the PL monster has brainwashed so many irish ppl that LOI supporters are looked upon as strange, if not downright ridiculed. I don’t think that Irish football fans hate the LOI though. I think deep down most of them realise that by following a foreign team (mostly through a Tv screen) they’re not experiencing true football fandom. But for a football supporter to give up following the PL so much and focus on the LOI requires a painful realisation that you’ve been wrongly supporting a foreign team for years , if not decades. Most ppl are too proud to admit this to themselves this so it’s easier to just stay on the hype train and ignore the struggling LOI.

[EatYerGreens]

Soccer of football is just personal preference. I don't think there's anything more to it. I find myself saying soccer from time to time, and like Bonnie, don't get why people get so wound up over it.

People flock to England and Scotland down to it being historically embedded in Irish footballing society. People won't support football here until we've regular Champions League and Europa League entrants, bigger more fancy stadia, more widespread marketing, more exotic squad lists and recognisable faces from world football....and really, every club to win the Euromillions.

Attendance figures dropped as a result of the Sky Sports phenomenon. Nothing can compete with a marketing machine like it. The standard of the league dropped dramatically over a twenty year period through the 80's and 90's here too, and didn't grow with the rest of the European game. As Sky leagues grew, the Irish game was hindered. Football was available at the touch of a button on your television. The switch to Friday nights from Sunday afternoons hit young families, and a drastic change that didn't work. English football is full of young families attending. It's harder to take a young child to a game in Ireland kicking off at 8pm when they'd normally be getting ready for bed.

The word 'soccer' has been used to describe the game almost since the game itself began in md-to-late 19th century England. It's an abbreviation of 'association', and was used alongside (and presumably modelled on) the abbreviation of rugby = 'rugger'.

It's somehow since then morphed into a word that is seen as wet and American - chiefly in England, which is where the word was ironically invented and first used. Wouldn't be a bad thing if it as reclaimed as just a normal word to describe the game. There are at least 6 different codes of 'football' around the world.

[EatYerGreens]

Irish ppl are (and have always been) event junkies when it comes to sport.

I'm not sure this is true to be honest. Why was the LOI attracting large crowds to terrible grounds right up to the 1960s ?

As clichéd as it sounds, I think it's hard to separate out how Irish football treat their own league from other facets of our post-colonial mindset. It's the same way that up until U2 no Irish band could really make it outside Ireland without leaving Ireland. There is a sub-conscious belief in Ireland that we're actually not that good really, and that anything in and from Ireland is probably a bit more crap than things from other places are. Hence footballers, actors, musicians etc generally have to make it outside of Ireland for a lot of Irish people to take any notice of them (and then bullsh!t to everyone that they were into them when no-one else was). We need that outside validation before we'll believe that something from Ireland is good.

The Irish have the sort of sub-conscious confidence problem that a lot of countries that were colonies have, and which you don't find amongst other small countries like the Swedish or the Swiss. Thinking out own football clubs and league are crap and that the shiny version in England/Scotland is more worthy of our attention is just a symptom of that. Along with the wall-to-wall presence of English TV shows on Irish TV (particularly TV3), the relatively large sales English newspapers have in Ireland etc etc. Since English football became pumped into our homes regularly via TV from the late 1960s onwards, it's just led us to believe that our own version is inferior. Because, being Irish, it must be.

[nigel-harps1954]

The grounds weren't terrible in the 60's though.

[Eminence Grise]

Sheao,

What's your discipline? Marketing, sports management, sociology...? Have you given any thought to your methodology? I know you've mentioned interviewees but there are many more ways of approaching this kind of research. I think you're going to have to narrow down your inquiry into something more manageable: you're covering a lot of ground there and I guess you have at most 20,000 words to do it in (minus about 7,500 for the intro, lit review and methodology chapters, so in practical terms something less than 10,000 for your original findings and analysis). There's great potential for some really valuable (and publishable) research if you can get a handle on it early doors. Hopefully you have a good supervisor you get on well with.

[ger121]

The grounds weren't terrible in the 60's though.

Technically true. It was just the whole Country was a terrible kip, so the stadia seemed fine in comparison.

[wonder88]

Wishing you good luck with your project, and agree with above that there is potential for very interesting research. Is there any figures for how many 30,000 - 40,000 crowds there were during the golden age of the LoI and which stadiums accommodated these.

[nigel-harps1954]

Wishing you good luck with your project, and agree with above that there is potential for very interesting research. Is there any figures for how many 30,000 - 40,000 crowds there were during the golden age of the LoI and which stadiums accommodated these.

30,000-40,000 is a gross over-exaggeration. Crowds were more like 15,000 around the grounds.

[Titan]

I'm not sure this is true to be honest. Why was the LOI attracting large crowds to terrible grounds right up to the 1960s ?

As clichéd as it sounds, I think it's hard to separate out how Irish football treat their own league from other facets of our post-colonial mindset. It's the same way that up until U2 no Irish band could really make it outside Ireland without leaving Ireland. There is a sub-conscious belief in Ireland that we're actually not that good really, and that anything in and from Ireland is probably a bit more crap than things from other places are. Hence footballers, actors, musicians etc generally have to make it outside of Ireland for a lot of Irish people to take any notice of them (and then bullsh!t to everyone that they were into them when no-one else was). We need that outside validation before we'll believe that something from Ireland is good.

The Irish have the sort of sub-conscious confidence problem that a lot of countries that were colonies have, and which you don't find amongst other small countries like the Swedish or the Swiss. Thinking out own football clubs and league are crap and that the shiny version in England/Scotland is more worthy of our attention is just a symptom of that. Along with the wall-to-wall presence of English TV shows on Irish TV (particularly TV3), the relatively large sales English newspapers have in Ireland etc etc. Since English football became pumped into our homes regularly via TV from the late 1960s onwards, it's just led us to believe that our own version is inferior. Because, being Irish, it must be.

Ah here you can't compare the Ireland of the 60s to now.

There was literally nothing else to do on a Sunday afternoon in the 60s there was no football on tv hell there was barely tv!

Honestly think it is the event junkie culture that means we will never have large attendances consistently over a 33 game season.

If there are end of season title and relegation playoffs I think they would be very well attended but over 33/36 games? No chance I'm afraid 😳

[Philosophizer]

Why was the LOI attracting large crowds to terrible grounds right up to the 1960s ?

As clichéd as it sounds, I think it's hard to separate out how Irish football treat their own league from other facets of our post-colonial mindset. It's the same way that up until U2 no Irish band could really make it outside Ireland without leaving Ireland. There is a sub-conscious belief in Ireland that we're actually not that good really, and that anything in and from Ireland is probably a bit more crap than things from other places are. Hence footballers, actors, musicians etc generally have to make it outside of Ireland for a lot of Irish people to take any notice of them (and then bullsh!t to everyone that they were into them when no-one else was). We need that outside validation before we'll believe that something from Ireland is good.

The Irish have the sort of sub-conscious confidence problem that a lot of countries that were colonies have, and which you don't find amongst other small countries like the Swedish or the Swiss. Thinking out own football clubs and league are crap and that the shiny version in England/Scotland is more worthy of our attention is just a symptom of that. Along with the wall-to-wall presence of English TV shows on Irish TV (particularly TV3), the relatively large sales English newspapers have in Ireland etc etc. Since English football became pumped into our homes regularly via TV from the late 1960s onwards, it's just led us to believe that our own version is inferior. Because, being Irish, it must be.

Excellent point about our post-colonial mindset. I hadn't considered that, but it's definitely a big factor. It's important to note though that that could only take effect once the country had widespread access to British football, which mainly happened through the television boom from the late 60s onwards.

I do still think our "event junkie" mindset plays a part too. Barely 20k showed up to Lansdowne to see us play Georgia (in an important qualifier) a few yrs ago, yet half the lads in the country went to Poland/France for the sesh.

What a great, academic thread this is btw, love it!

Also, have we reliable attendances from the 60s? i can't imagine every team was getting anywhere near 30-40k. Would love to see the average league wide attendance from this time period.

[EatYerGreens]

The grounds weren't terrible in the 60's though.

They were in the 70s though (and onwards), and was part of why most of the expensively paid aging English stars of the time didn't stick around for long.

Once the crowds went down, their was less money or incentive to maintain or improve them.

[EatYerGreens]

Excellent point about our post-colonial mindset. I hadn't considered that, but it's definitely a big factor. It's important to note though that that could only take effect once the country had widespread access to British football, which mainly happened through the television boom from the late 60s onwards.

I do still think our "event junkie" mindset plays a part too. Barely 20k showed up to Lansdowne to see us play Georgia (in an important qualifier) a few yrs ago, yet half the lads in the country went to Poland/France for the sesh.

What a great, academic thread this is btw, love it!

Also, have we reliable attendances from the 60s? i can't imagine every team was getting anywhere near 30-40k. Would love to see the average league wide attendance from this time period.

But WHY are the Irish event junkies ? Just because ?!

Or is it another expression of a national lack of self-confidence - whereby we ignore anything until it's proven to be good (usually through external validation) and then we all charge towards it en masse banging on about how great it is.

Like a good doctor would, I'd encourage you to dig deep to try to unearth the causes of phenomena, not just accept what could be a symptom as the cause itself.

[Mr A]

The rugby provinces show that it is possible to build up a decent following across league games. Ulster had 16483 for their game against Zebre last weekend for example, and Connacht built crowds impressively even while they were still pretty rubbish.

It's not easy, and certainly a complex issue, but the event junkie thing can be overcome. Just keep making small improvements to the product, make people feel part of it and valued and slowly but surely we can build it up.

[EatYerGreens]

The rugby provinces show that it is possible to build up a decent following across league games. Ulster had 16483 for their game against Zebre last weekend for example, and Connacht built crowds impressively even while they were still pretty rubbish.

It's not easy, and certainly a complex issue, but the event junkie thing can be overcome. Just keep making small improvements to the product, make people feel part of it and valued and slowly but surely we can build it up.

Indeed.

I remember going to watch Leinster play Glasgow Caledonian (as they then were) in a European fixture of some sort in 1999 (I think) at a club ground in or around D4 (Old Wesley's ? You can tell I'm not a Dub ! :) )

Anyways - there were no more than about a thousand at it. At that stage Ulster and Munster were getting decent crowds, but Leinster weren't and Connacht were woefully supported.

About a decade after that Leinster were selling out Lansdowne and the RDS for matches, which shows that things can change.

P.S. I'm not trying to be one of those 'I was in the GPO in 1916' bandwagoners I mentioned above with this story :)

[fionnsci]

You should get a copy of and read "Who Stole Our Game?", deals with a lot of these issues addressed.

[Philosophizer]

Came across a brilliant article on this subject on These Football Times. It was published just a few months ago - http://thesefootballtimes.co/2016/02/12/the-declining-history-of-the-league-of-ireland/

It doesn't mention any national lack on confidence due to post-colonialism, but explains many other very valid societal reasons that contributed to the steady decline in attendances once the 50s (the golden age for LOI attendances) ended.

by the way, it seems that only in v rare instances were crowds anywhere near 30k. The big crowds were mainly at the big derby matches.

"Shelbourne and Shamrock Rovers played at Tolka Park in August 1954 in front of over 11,000, earning gate receipts of £850. The 1955 FAI Cup semi-final between Drumcondra and Waterford drew a crowd of 28,504 at Dalymount Park, and a gate of £3,002....

....By the late 1950s, demand to see the games had surpassed stadium capacity. This led to the first all-ticket fixture in Irish club football in January 1958, when 19,053 crammed into Tolka Park."

The main reason cited for the large attendances in the 50s seem to be:
- The absolute lack of other entertainment in 50s ireland
- Overpopulation in Dublin city centre meant that huge populations lived within walking distances of grounds.

In fairness, aside from the big attendances for a few high profile matches the attendances aren't mindblowing - "In January 1953 a game in Cork between Evergreen and Cork Athletic recorded an attendance of 8,317." There were 7 thousand ppl in Turners cross in April 2015 to watch Cork Vs Dundalk, and many were unable to get tickets, and our attendances for FAI Cup finals in the Aviva are usually in excess of 20k these days.

It continues by describing how the 60s saw the birth of contemporary Irish society when we joined the institutions of global capitalism, which yielded major economic improvements for the country, but also contributed to declining LOI attendances due to:
- the advent of television and subsequent latching onto British teams who did v well in Europe, in comparison with irish teams
- ppl had more money and so could afford other past-times, like going boozing in the pub
- government initiatives depopulated the inner city slums and moved ppl to suburban housing estates

it's important to remember though that the attendances of the 50s are an anomaly.

"When one looks at the high attendances in the 1950s it is as though they were something of an oasis on an otherwise desert-like landscape for the league. It required little effort on behalf of the clubs to attract spectators, and the matches offered an escape from the destitute environment of urban life in 1950s Ireland. However, it could be argued the large attendances were merely a product of their time, and times change.

Just as contemporary Irish society was born in the 1960s, the reasons why the league stopped attracting large crowds is the same now as it was 50 years ago. Television, Manchester United and the population shift to the suburbs, in addition to the structural and administrative problems, poor facilities and fractured nature of Irish football, meant the league has never been able to regain the mass following it once had."

[EatYerGreens]

It's a great article, bit I think it lets itself down by viewing Dublin in isolation as if it was an anomaly at that time, when it was just part of a wider shift in Western Europe.

The 1960s had the same impact in every town and city in Britain as well - rising accessibility of TV, shifting populations to suburbs, higher disposable income etc. Yet people didn't stop supporting teams like Scunthorpe, Grimsby and Charlton Athletic there as a result. The working class population of east and south east London was shifted wholesale out to the borders of Essex and Kent, yet they didn't stop supporting the likes of Millwall, West Ham and even Leyton Orient. Same in Glasgow, yet people still supported Partick Thistle and Clydebank.

So why did those factors cause Irish people to desert their own relatively crap teams when English and Scottish people didn't stop supporting their relatively crap teams ? Why was Ireland/Dublin different ? And why did the Irish League retain its decent crowds for about a decade longer than the LOI did - even though both were arguably of similar standard and facilities ?

This touches on another interesting comparison. Why did Scots continue to support their league - despite facing the same socio-economic factors and being located next door to a stronger English alternative - whilst the Irish didn't ?

[nigel-harps1954]

This is all nice information, but what in the feck is a ppl?

[KrisLetang]

"Are a people" you mean.

[Philosophizer]

This touches on another interesting comparison. Why did Scots continue to support their league - despite facing the same socio-economic factors and being located next door to a stronger English alternative - whilst the Irish didn't ?

Maybe they had that validation that their league was v good (and worthwhile following) by Celtic winning the European cup in Lisbon for eg. We on the other hand had confirmation that our league was one of the weakest in Europe by usually getting knocked out in the early rounds.