Ireland v England 1995

[lopez]

I'd be surprised if none of them could speak French (the players that is) but I would not be surprised if many of the new immigrants could not speak French. The number of Moslem immigrants moving to France is significant and will certainly have a profound influence on the future of France. For better or for worse.Of course I meant the players could all speak French. I'd have a guess that it is part of gaining French citizenship. The original post was to me a clear racist dig at France's foreign 2G. As with Asians in Britain and Turks in Germany, those born in the country can often speak the language better than some of the natives.

As for migrants not speaking French, well is speaking the language a prerequisite for residence? Take a look at the English-speaking ghettos that have sprung up along the Spanish costas to see that there are people there that have lived in the country for twenty-five years and can speak as much Spanish as my mother can speak Japanese.

In fact, while many North Africans and their offspring might feel marginalised in France, as dcfcsteve touches on, there are increasing probs with the children - principally teenagers - of the influx of Britons moving in, because of their own inability to learn the language. The Daily Mason ran a two page article about this a couple of months ago - it predicted an inevitible life of low menial work and crime through poor education (or rather the inability to understand French) - and the fact that the springing up of 'Brits Go Home' graffitti comes not from locals but from settled Britons that find these new property speculators are giving them a bad name.

[Junior]

The number of English/English-speaking immigrants moving to certain rural areas of France is also significant, and will also certainly have a profound influence on the future of France. Just like the number of Irish moving to Boston and New York etc etc etc in the mid 1800's did. Significant numbers of any language/culture/race moving anywhere has a profound effect, and has done for literally millenia. So what's your point about Muslims then, and why do you seem determined to associate negative elements to their presence in France ?

My mate was telling me there is a part of Canada (near Toronto somewhere I think) where the whole community speak with Mayo accents!! Obvioulsy an impact of emmigration in the 1800's - unless he's pulling my leg........errmmm...............

[NY Hoop]

Let's say the T*** 'behaviour' just confirmed many peoples worst fears.....though their apologists will describe this as a 'minority'.

Have it on reasonably good authority from Garda connections,that the majority of hoodlums were rounded up by them,after rioting....taken to the ferry terminal & given a good kicking in the Dun Laoghaire ferry terminal by the finest :rolleyes: riot cops in Ireland! :D

Some of the worst offenders were stuck in Mountjoy,with 'RA men........record does not exist whether they still 'refused' to surrender ;) Lastly,edging into 'urban myth' territory......on thug was allegedly stripped naked by the Gards,dumped in the Wicklow Mountains at night & told to make his own way home!

Not a great fan of arbitary 'Polis' justice....in this instance though,think the punishment matched the crime! :D

All common knowledge.

Was on the north terrace and got on the pitch after. Actually we met some of them in the liffey bar afterwards. Were boasting how they had wrecked every city in europe etc etc.

The average plod on the beat is only responding to his superiors, like in any job, so the real blame lies with Garda HQ for putting trainees at lansdowne that night.

KOH

[Éanna]

My mate was telling me there is a part of Canada (near Toronto somewhere I think) where the whole community speak with Mayo accents!! Obvioulsy an impact of emmigration in the 1800's - unless he's pulling my leg........errmmm...............
dunno about that, but there are villages in argentina where irish is spoken. and also, one or two areas in argentina where german has been spoken for the last 60 years or so :eek:

[Junior]

dunno about that, but there are villages in argentina where irish is spoken. and also, one or two areas in argentina where german has been spoken for the last 60 years or so :eek:

And Welsh!! Yer man Heinze from Man U is fluent in it.

[Donal81]

I'd be surprised if none of them could speak French (the players that is) but I would not be surprised if many of the new immigrants could not speak French. The number of Moslem immigrants moving to France is significant and will certainly have a profound influence on the future of France. For better or for worse.

A funny thing happens after of a few hundred years of colonial economic rape of North West Africa. Much of that region now speaks French the same way we speak English.

Another funny thing happens after such oppression. The colonial master leaves but remains the paymaster in many ways. Apparently one or two Irish people went to England during the 20th century.

The French government invited over workers from these countries during the 40s, 50s and 60s who were given passports. Countries such as Tunisia, the Ivory Coast maintain close links with France.

Maybe all this surprises you? Did you ever wonder why France is a global power? There's your reason.

France shafted much of Africa and didn't even leave Algeria until the 60s and only then after a miserable war which saw a few million Algerians killed.

[ken foree]

Has there ever been a riot at any other Irish International Match?

Can't think of any off hand

don't know if there was trouble during the match, but read that some irish were on the rampage after the euro qualifier in moscow?

[lopez]

...The French government invited over workers from these countries during the 40s, 50s and 60s who were given passports...France had a total 'open door' policy to Algeria - 'open door' as in exactly the same way Britain had with Ireland until the Single European Act, or EU countries currently have with other pre-2004 EU countries - at least until the mid 1980's SEA. Don't know what happened after that but any Thomas Cook Railway Timetable of the early 1980s (this listed visa requirements for countries) I read had Algerians as the only nationals granted an unlimited stay in France outside the original nine EEC countries and maybe Switzerland.

[Donal81]

My mate was telling me there is a part of Canada (near Toronto somewhere I think) where the whole community speak with Mayo accents!! Obvioulsy an impact of emmigration in the 1800's - unless he's pulling my leg........errmmm...............

Newfoundland in Canada is a fairly isolated part of the country. Fishing expeditions of the North Atlantic would leave England and pick up fishermen and labourers usually from Waterford and spend the season fishing near Newfoundland. Most of this emigration was seasonal but some stayed and eventually more came over. As it was such an isolated place, the Irish were the only group of people there. It is indeed true that they speak with Irish accents. RTE broadcast a documentary last year called the Irish Empire. It interviewed an old man from Newfoundland. The land itself looks eerily like the western coast of Ireland. The narrator herself says that it's like a part of 'the old country' just floated across the sea. Because it was all Irish, the houses are the same, the fields look the same, the farming methods were the same.

The old man had barely heard of the Famine and said he remembered, as a boy, the old Irishmen outside the church. He was born and raised there and sounded like he was from Tipperary. Look it up, it was an excellent documentary.

[lopez]

don't know if there was trouble during the match, but read that some irish were on the rampage after the euro qualifier in moscow?Only games I've known with trouble aside from the 1995 visit were Belgium 1981, Denmark 1985, the Scum 1985 (as Davros notes) and Switzerland 1985. However, I'd hardly call what happened as riots.

[ken foree]

Only games I've known with trouble aside from the 1995 visit were Belgium 1981, Denmark 1985, the Scum 1985 (as Davros notes) and Switzerland 1985. However, I'd hardly call what happened as riots.

great record, best fans in the world! except when it comes to singing at LR it seems ;)

[Junior]

don't know if there was trouble during the match, but read that some irish were on the rampage after the euro qualifier in moscow?

Wher did you read that? Moscow's Right wing nutters trashed a few hotels with irish fans in it and indeed attacked a few Irish fans (one guy on our coach had been hit over the head with an iron bar) However, this doesn't equate to Ireland fans on the rampage - I guess your taking the mick :confused:

[ken foree]

Wher did you read that? Moscow's Right wing nutters trashed a few hotels with irish fans in it and indeed attacked a few Irish fans (one guy on our coach had been hit over the head with an iron bar) However, this doesn't equate to Ireland fans on the rampage - I guess your taking the mick :confused:

not at all, i actually read that in a few places, been a while so sorry don't remember where. certainly online football sites. mighta been english ones :o

[ken foree]

Wher did you read that? Moscow's Right wing nutters trashed a few hotels with irish fans in it and indeed attacked a few Irish fans (one guy on our coach had been hit over the head with an iron bar) However, this doesn't equate to Ireland fans on the rampage - I guess your taking the mick :confused:

p.s. sorry to hear about your friend, that's sick

[Donal81]

i have heard accents frmo nova scocia ( i know wrong spelling ) and they dont sound anything like irish people, however st johns and newfoundland are supposed to have half canadian/half irish accents.

where can you see that documentary?

Might be tough to get, just ring up RTE and ask for the archives section, see if they'll help you out! I don't think it's out on DVD or anything.

[Cowboy]

Might be tough to get, just ring up RTE and ask for the archives section, see if they'll help you out! I don't think it's out on DVD or anything.

I saw that prog too, definitely sounded Irish

[Éanna]

Reminds me of summers I spent in La Bourgogne. Family I stayed with were great, but always claimed that they weren't racist, they only hated Arabs! It was just the done thing for them, very ingrained. If they spotted me talking to an Algerian at the pool near the town, they would tell me to
reminds me of a south african girl I worked with while living in Germany. "How would you know? You don't have to live with them" was just one of her well-informed reasons for not trusting black people :rolleyes: But, of course, she claimed she wasn't a racist :rolleyes:

[Eire06]

great record, best fans in the world! except when it comes to singing at LR it seems ;)


Ya I think that England match was the only trouble at a home match we ever had....

Were all Angels I tell you Angels..

[anto eile]

Watched it on tv & main memories are that clip of young kid (where is he now?) crying as he standing on the pitch in front of West Stand. :eek:

Was also very embarishing to watch clearly unorganised Gardai. Nothing against the individual guards but there was no coordination & looked like hadn't a clue how to deal with a riot. In fact they beg=haved very similar during those Mayday "riots" i.e. wading into rioters instead of trying to pick them off one by one. :(

that little kid was a mank united fan.poor little fella his great day out watching premier**** heroes ended badly

[anto eile]

They got off lghtly as far as I'm concerned.
If they'd been nationalists in Northern Ireland they'd have been shot at with plastic/rubber bullets.

I would like to see England play Ireland someday where there's a load of banter but only football fans get access to the game.
The only way to organise that would be to sell the tickets through supporters clubs and then check passports and tickets at the turnstiles.

i remember a gam on sports files (rte on saturdays) from wembley about 91ish. 1-1 i think. but england an ireland fans sitting beside each other at the game. seemed fairly ok from the clips on tv

[anto eile]

But that's my point, the UK police wanted to have spotters at the ground (and airports/ports) and the (in your opinion) do no wrong guards went it alone rather than take the help/ accept the intelligence. The dicks wouldn't have got in the ground to cause the problems.

dont underestimate the culpability of the gards in allowing that trouble to start.and the gards still havent learnt a lesson.as proved by their inability to police loi games played in front of a 2500 people

[anto eile]

There's only trouble when Rovers are in town.
Lets face it, we never see trouble any other time.
Rovers seem to bring out a bad element in every club.
"Firms" are nowhere near as organised in Ireland as they are elsewhere and therefore the policing doesn't need to be on the same scale.
It would cause a national outcry if we spent a fraction of the money the police in the UK spend on football. It's multi-millions each year.

more corki nonsense about Rovers troublemakers. when Rovers were in turners x last season it was YOUR moron supporters who started the trouble so cop on to yourself with this "only" Rovers casue trouble

[Éanna]

that little kid was a mank united fan.poor little fella his great day out watching premier**** heroes ended badly
at least he learnt what english football is about before he got too involved in supporting it


dont underestimate the culpability of the gards in allowing that trouble to start.and the gards still havent learnt a lesson.as proved by their inability to police loi games played in front of a 2500 people
what inability is that? I'm no fan of the gardaí but the way you're saying it, you'd swear there was war at eircom League games- which there isn't.

[Peadar]

i remember a gam on sports files (rte on saturdays) from wembley about 91ish. 1-1 i think. but england an ireland fans sitting beside each other at the game.

We have a few people on this forum who were in attendance on that day.


so cop on to yourself with this "only" Rovers casue trouble

I appreciate that you will have difficulty reading, given your unfortunate circumstance in life, but could you ask someone to read my post to you before you make an even greater fool of yourself by flying off the handle?
There's a good little scally.

[gspain]

i remember a gam on sports files (rte on saturdays) from wembley about 91ish. 1-1 i think. but england an ireland fans sitting beside each other at the game. seemed fairly ok from the clips on tv

There was definitely segregation at that game. Some Irish fans i nthe home end all right. England hadn't sold out for a few years so not too hard to get tickets in the England end - ours were difficult to get.

no real trouble on the night. One Irish pub was done I heard o nthe day but never saw it confirmed. however many of the boneheads that follow England away don't go to home games.

Fans were mixed in at Euro88 more so and at Italia 90. Mixed campsites in Stuttgart an dCagliari but no issues in either

[anto eile]

So none of the 5m+ Muslims (note the spelling) in France are French then......?



However - I would say that the Gardai are by and large just a bunch of messers, with no air of authority in general and zero notions on crowd control in particular. Not in any way an impressive police force, and they pale in comparison to any other police force I've experienced in the First World. The Police in England/the US etc leave you in no doubt who's in control, purely by how they handle themselves. The Gardai I always find difficult to take seriously at all.

dont be pedantic with the spelling :)
as for gards theyre absolute morons. no-one takes them serioulsy, saw one real culchie looking potato-head thick looking fooker in town last week, had to crack up laughing at the mere sight of him. then the big thick gombeen satnding at the corner of henry st o'connell st with one leg agaisnt the wall yawning while hands in his pockets,looked like he was catching flies.
gards are incompetent lazy idiots. and thats before you take into accoutn the rampant corruption in the force,which is a whole other issue

[WeAreRovers]

I appreciate that you will have difficulty reading, given your unfortunate circumstance in life, but could you ask someone to read my post to you before you make an even greater fool of yourself by flying off the handle?
There's a good little scally.

What was that about attacking the post and not the poster? :rolleyes:

KOH

[Éanna]

more corki nonsense about Rovers troublemakers. when Rovers were in turners x last season it was YOUR moron supporters who started the trouble so cop on to yourself with this "only" Rovers casue trouble
read what he said again.
Rovers seem to bring out a bad element in every club. ots certainly true that in Cork there are (Cork)people who only turn up for Rovers games at the cross because they're looking for trouble. Thats not Rovers' fans fault, but it is because of Rovers.

[Peadar]

What was that about attacking the post and not the poster? :rolleyes:

KOH

Monkey see, monkey do.

WAR, I'm sure you appreciate I wasn't suggesting that Rovers "start" all the trouble?

[anto eile]

I appreciate that you will have difficulty reading, given your unfortunate circumstance in life, but could you ask someone to read my post to you before you make an even greater fool of yourself by flying off the handle?
There's a good little scally.

you said: ""There's only trouble when Rovers are in town.
Lets face it, we never see trouble any other time.
Rovers seem to bring out a bad element in every club.""

how can you blame Rovers fans "bringing out an element of fans" who want to have a go?
in every club?ther was trouble at three fixtures last year.three. cork away when cork fans started it. longford away when stewards aided by aretired garda started it.and the gypos when both sides looked for it. so your claims that Rovers bring out a thuggish element in every club is wrong.

i can read perfectly fine, not just in english either.
as for scally?what basis have you for that ludicrous claim??i wouldnt be seen dead in a tracksuit in public. never wear caps. dont wear hideous jewelry of any kind.maybe youd like to actually find out waht a scally is before labelling someone it, casue if you call me it you mustnt know what one is
as for unfortuante circumsatnces, cant think of much more unfortunate circumstances that being from cork , (bar being a native of somewhere like mogadishu or pyongyang) :D

[wws]

It would cause a national outcry if we spent a fraction of the money the police in the UK spend on football. It's multi-millions each year.



did you know the brits spent nearly 2 million on their licensing committee this year.......yes, that licensing thing we go on about!

I wonder what in the name of fucck they spend it on, and I though the FAI had junketeering committees down to a fine art

[WeAreRovers]

WAR, I'm sure you appreciate I wasn't suggesting that Rovers "start" all the trouble?

I couldn't give a flying one what you think about our fans I was just pointing out that you resorted to personal abuse in your response to Anto. I was under the impression that sort of post was considered uncool on foot.ie. That's all.

KOH

[anto eile]

My mate was telling me there is a part of Canada (near Toronto somewhere I think) where the whole community speak with Mayo accents!! Obvioulsy an impact of emmigration in the 1800's - unless he's pulling my leg........errmmm...............

newfoundland i think,somewhere round that area has a bizarre irish accent alright

[anto eile]

dunno about that, but there are villages in argentina where irish is spoken. and also, one or two areas in argentina where german has been spoken for the last 60 years or so :eek:

not irish but welsh.thats only a couple of hundred or so people in remote areas that can speak it.not like you go into shops in BA and have bilingual staff selling you goods in welsh!

[Peadar]

how can you blame Rovers fans "bringing out an element of fans" who want to have a go?


I wasn't blaming rovers, merely stating a fact.
There's trouble when they're in town.

I spent enough years in Dublin to know what a scally is, don't you worry about that.

[Peadar]

I was just pointing out that you resorted to personal abuse in your response to Anto.

It was in response to his "personal abuse."

[joeraki]

I wasn't blaming rovers, merely stating a fact.
There's trouble when they're in town.


So if Rovers have an element that come out for trouble for Bohs games

And Cork have an element that only come out for Rovers games

Conclusion: Both are as bad as each other, but Rovers have the reputation. That seems about right

[anto eile]

I wasn't blaming rovers, merely stating a fact.
There's trouble when they're in town.

I spent enough years in Dublin to know what a scally is, don't you worry about that.
and dublin has scallys but cork doesnt? anyway dont call me it.theres penty of names id rather be called than scally. i consider it highly offensive. and btw i dont like the use of scally itself, the correct hiberno-english term is skanger.im certainly no skanger.

btw isnt "attack-the-poster-not-the-post" stuff meant to get deleted on here??
nb i told you to cop on- thats not abuse, its advice ;)

as for me "flying off the handle", its because cork fans moreso than any other have this crazy chip on the shoulder hyseterical reaction to anything Rovers fans do. i remember one cork fan claiming he had never been ntimidated as mush in his life after one Rovers v cork game at rihmond park, when Rovers fans had the sheer audacity to A: sing abuse at the away fans and B:take the p!ss out of them. many many cork fans hysterically over-react to Rovers fans. thats why i started replying to this thread in the first place,something fairly rare as i dont usually post here

[Eire06]

Look you need your heads banging together...

There is and always will be a few bad eggs in every group but you cannot tar everyone with the one brush...

I'm sure none of you cause any trouble at the matches and that none of you are scallys..

Angels the lot of you

Now kiss\ shake hands (whatever your into) :p and make up please and get back to discussing the beautiful game..

[Peadar]

Conclusion: Both are as bad as each other, but Rovers have the reputation. That seems about right

There's an element which surfaces for the Rovers game.
We're aware of it and not proud of it.



nb i told you to cop on- thats not abuse, its advice ;)

I felt abused! ;)

The term "scally" comes from "scallywag", non???

[anto eile]

There's an element which surfaces for the Rovers game.
We're aware of it and not proud of it.



I felt abused! ;)

The term "scally" comes from "scallywag", non???
yeah. scally is more commonly used in england. as is chav btw.
but the irish hiberno-english word is skanger,which is not something youd hear on the streets of lacostepool or bradford:)

[dcfcsteve]

dunno about that, but there are villages in argentina where irish is spoken. and also, one or two areas in argentina where german has been spoken for the last 60 years or so :eek:

Eanna - there's no Irish speaking communities in Argentina.

Only 2 long-lived Celtic-speaking communities remained in the world following the mass Celtic emigrations that occured between the late 18th and early 20th Century.

The first is in the Chubut Valley of Patagonia in southern Argentina, set-up in 1865 by Welsh emigrants escaping persecution of their language. The colony (it was literally called that in Welsh) was set-up deliberately to preserve the language. They also tried and failed to do similar in Russia and Brazil, as when they'd earlier tried in English-speaking parts of North America they got swamped by English-speakering settlers, so decided instead to focus on non-English speaking countries instead. A small but significant Welsh-speaking community remains in Patagonia. They hold an annual Eisteddfod, and Welsh-speaking employers in Wales have started recruiting amongst them for jobs they can't fill in Welsh-speaking Cymru.

The other area is Nova Scotia/Newfoundland in Canada, which received large numbers of Scottish Highlander emigrants during the Highland Clearances. A few thousand Scottish Gaidhlig speakers still remain there - primarily on Cape Breton island - but they are slowly dying out.

No Irish-speaking communities remain outside of Ireland (although, for example, there were an estimated 200,000 Irish-speakers in New York alone in 1850).

The Irish-sounding accent in Canada is in the extreme East of Labrador, within fishing communities that are physically cut-off from the rest of Canada. They do indeed have Irish accents, which is truly wacky when you hear it.

There is also an island in the Pacific (can't recall it's name) where the natives speak English with an Irish accent, thanks to an Irish priest who brought them Christianity and the English language.

Ireland - over the centuries the world's greatest provider of emigrants and asylum seekers. How times change.....

[Donal81]

No Irish-speaking communities remain outside of Ireland (although, for example, there were an estimated 200,000 Irish-speakers in New York alone in 1850).

Was there not a small community in Springfield in Massachussets?

[dcfcsteve]

Was there not a small community in Springfield in Massachussets?

No - that's the Simpsons...... :D

Irish speaking 'communities' existed for a shortwhile in various parts of North-East America, through sheer weight of numbers.

They didn't last long though, and assimilated into English-speakers pretty much within a generation.

[Fergie's Son]

Immigration is a necessary fact of life for Western Europe Fergies's Son - particularly those with ageing populations like France. The likes of France and Germany will econimically wither without immigration, and that is an accepted fact.

I think you'll find the majority of Muslim (why did you insist on ignoring the conventional spelling of the word ?) immigrants into France are actually from French-speaking North Africa. Algerians, Moroccans and Tunisians in the main, and the vast majority of them already speak French. Sorry to have facts get in the way of your poorly-cloaked xenophobic "immigrants can't speak the feckin' lingo" stereotyping...

The number of English/English-speaking immigrants moving to certain rural areas of France is also significant, and will also certainly have a profound influence on the future of France. Just like the number of Irish moving to Boston and New York etc etc etc in the mid 1800's did. Significant numbers of any language/culture/race moving anywhere has a profound effect, and has done for literally millenia. So what's your point about Muslims then, and why do you seem determined to associate negative elements to their presence in France ?

No, it is not an "accepted fact". Economists are wholly divided about the benefits of immigration. George Bjoras, Chariman of the Department of Economics at the Kennedy School of Business in Harvard has come out quite clearly against mass-immigration as a economic panacea. He rightly notes that real wages in California have fallen significantly due to Mexican immigration. Large-scale immigration has a deflationary affect on wages. Even the Economist, the ultimate flag waver for open borders, admits that there is almost no benefit to letting in massive amounts of unskilled labour. Moreover, the indirect costs of immigrants more than outweighs any benefits they might add to the tax base. This indirect costs include education, health services and housing. So no, Europe will survive without massive immigration. Further, if you let in enough citizens from another country is it still that country? France will be majority Moslem by 2045, is it still France?

The number of English moving to France is de minimis by comparison. They also tend to be pensioners so they are not having kids and they are not deflating wages.

Also, Moslem is the correct term and is the term used by Moslem's themselves.

[dcfcsteve]

No, it is not an "accepted fact". Economists are wholly divided about the benefits of immigration. George Bjoras, Chariman of the Department of Economics at the Kennedy School of Business in Harvard has come out quite clearly against mass-immigration as a economic panacea. He rightly notes that real wages in California have fallen significantly due to Mexican immigration. Large-scale immigration has a deflationary affect on wages. Even the Economist, the ultimate flag waver for open borders, admits that there is almost no benefit to letting in massive amounts of unskilled labour. Moreover, the indirect costs of immigrants more than outweighs any benefits they might add to the tax base. This indirect costs include education, health services and housing. So no, Europe will survive without massive immigration. Further, if you let in enough citizens from another country is it still that country? France will be majority Moslem by 2045, is it still France?

The number of English moving to France is de minimis by comparison. They also tend to be pensioners so they are not having kids and they are not deflating wages.

Also, Moslem is the correct term and is the term used by Moslem's themselves.


Fergie - your points above relate to immigration in general. My point related to immigration in Western Europe alone, and was not talking about letting any aul fecker in. My post related to Western Europe. The US is in no way comparable to W. Europe on this issue, as the fundamentals are completely different (America has a rapidly expanding population that is maintaining it's balance between the ages, whereas the root of Europe's problem is that it doesn't). Europe will indeed 'survive' without immigration - but it won't prosper - and certainly not along the lines that it currently does. The facts are as follows :

- The 5 Major Western European nations have an ageing population and a low birthrate. Their pool of economically-active individuals is therefore declining at the same time that their number of economic dependents is increasing significantly.
- This therefore places a much greater economic burden upon the increasingly smaller numbers within employment, as they have to fund (directly or indirectly) the increasingly aging population.
- Lower productivity due to a declining workforce, combined with a larger number of dependents within a state to soak-up resources, leads to lower growth. Economic fact.

- A reduction in growth - particularly ongoing - effectively means a reduction in the wealth of a nation. Economic fact.
- A very recent study states that total household financial wealth within ageing countries will be a whopping 36% lower by 2025 than if the age structure were to remain as it is now (Source : McKinsey).
- Growth in household financial wealth in France and Germany will slow from current annual average of 4.5% to 1.3% (source : McKinsey).
- Immigration offers a way round this. (Note - I'm not talking about random or unskilled immigration here. You're the only one again who's talked in such general terms).
- Immigration offers an opportunity to boost the workforce - particularly within vital areas that indigneous workers don't want to be employed in (transport, health, lesiure etc). This is doubly important in the area of Health provision - aging populations will require more and more people to look after them, yet indigenous populations in Western Europe are consistently unwilling to work in the Health sector (hence all the Phillipino nurses, Indian doctors etc).
- Of the Big 5 European economies, it is predicted that only the UK's rate of growth will be relatively unscathed by this demographic change (dropping from 5.1% to 3.2% average). The reason for this ? The UK's rate of immigration means that its median age will have only risen by 3yrs by 2005 (compared to 9 years in Italy, for example).

Would be happy for you to point out the economic inaccuracy in the above Fergie. As mentioned above, I haven't been talking about unskilled immigration - you've decided to focus on such general terms, not me. Western Europe needs people to fill the roles within it's countries that it's locals either won't or can't fill. It really is that simple.

As for wage deflation - you seem to think it can only be a bad thing !? Even when it does occur (and I see no evidence of it having happened in W. Europe to-date) it can also be a positive force economically. The UK could certainly do with a healthy dose of it in certain industries that immigrants gravitate towards (e.g. construction, general building)

And for the record, English immigration to France is NOT primarily pensioners. Far from it - it's predominantly young families and middle-aged couples looking to set-up businesses and take advantage of better schooling. English pensioners almost entirely gravitate towards warmer countries like Spain.

As for your insistence on using the spelling 'Moslem' - I'll take your word that that is how Muslims themselves spell it in the English language, even though I've never once seen it spelt that way even amongst my Muslim friends/colleagues. If you're so insitent on using 'Moslem' words to refer to things, then I suggest you familiarise yourself with the word 'Infidel' as well. Your posts are leading me to the conclusion that you, sir, are indeed an infidel...... :) :p

[OneRedArmy]

Further, if you let in enough citizens from another country is it still that country? France will be majority Moslem by 2045, is it still France?

Are the native Americans still wondering who called it America?!


Also, Moslem is the correct term and is the term used by Moslem's themselves.
There is no "correct" english translation as their alphabet is completely different and is translated phon-et-ic-ally. Note the total confusion over Osama/Usama/Bin Laden/Ben Ladin etc......

[Closed Account 2]

As for your insistence on using the spelling 'Moslem' - I'll take your word that that is how Muslims themselves spell it in the English language, even though I've never once seen it spelt that way even amongst my Muslim friends/colleagues. If you're so insitent on using 'Moslem' words to refer to things, then I suggest you familiarise yourself with the word 'Infidel' as well. Your posts are leading me to the conclusion that you, sir, are indeed an infidel...... :) :p

Well Moslem is listed in Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Moslem) as a variant spelling of Muslim. The variation arises over translating the individual letters from Arabic to English (ie character to character or character to phonetic equivalent) other examples are Quran/Koran, or the names Mohammed/Muhammed/Mahammed. I think there were (at the last count) around 30 different varients of spelling Muammar Gaddafi. A similar thing happens with names which are taken from Cyrillic (eg Ельцин = Eltsin, Ieltsin or Yeltsin), similarly Tsar,Czar and now even Tsar. When writing your name in Cyrillic you have to decide if you want it spelt correctly in terms of letters, or pronounced correctly.

[Fergie's Son]

And for the record, English immigration to France is NOT primarily pensioners. Far from it - it's predominantly young families and middle-aged couples looking to set-up businesses and take advantage of better schooling. English pensioners almost entirely gravitate towards warmer countries like Spain.


I guess I'll respond to your points one by one and as best as I can. The numbers of Enlish emmigrating to France is de minimis when compared with immigration from the middle-east and Africa. It's no where near the same scale and it is a red herring to suggest otherwise.

Most of the immigration to France has been of the unskilled variety. It has been via asylum seekers who then become an "anchor" immigrant attracting additional immigrants through family members, arranged marriages etc. Skilled immigration is not the issue here but unskilled, "mass" immigration.


- - The 5 Major Western European nations have an ageing population and a low birthrate. Their pool of economically-active individuals is therefore declining at the same time that their number of economic dependents is increasing significantly.
- This therefore places a much greater economic burden upon the increasingly smaller numbers within employment, as they have to fund (directly or indirectly) the increasingly aging population.
- Lower productivity due to a declining workforce, combined with a larger number of dependents within a state to soak-up resources, leads to lower growth. Economic fact.
.

There are very few students of the dismal science who would ever say that anything is an economic "fact". I do hope you'll publish. While it is true that the 5 major European countries do indeed have ageing populations that is not irreversible or reason enough to flood the country with citizens of a different country. One of the fundamental flaws in your arguments are that they do not take into account technological developments. Such developments continue to reduce the need for manual labour as a driver of capital. Moreover, by importating large numbers of unskilled labourers it actually retards technoligical development as businesses become dependent on cheap labour and do not invest the necessary R&D or capital in producing or purchasing better tech.

Importing cheap labour, again stick to the real issue, will not solve any alleged pension crisis. Firstly, immigrants age themsleves. They also tend to bring aged parents with them and tend to use disproportionately more services than natives (for a variety of reasons) so the indirect costs are enormous raising doubts about any benefits they may bring. Secondly, with wage deflation they will never make enough money to pay the benefits of the ageing population. So they'll never had enough money to pay for the services for the older population and they'll actually increase the burden on the system through indirect payments.

Thirdly, as immigrants gain political power through sheer weight of numbers who is to say that they'll even agree to continue to pay for these benefits anyways? As the Economist notes, first generation immigrants in Sweden are complaining about paying taxes to support "old white people' Economist: Survey of Scanidnavia, June 2004). That's a comforting thought.


Of the Big 5 European economies, it is predicted that only the UK's rate of growth will be relatively unscathed by this demographic change (dropping from 5.1% to 3.2% average). The reason for this ? The UK's rate of immigration means that its median age will have only risen by 3yrs by 2005 (compared to 9 years in Italy, for example

That's fundamentally untrue. The UK's population actually continues to rise without immigration.

The British population is officially projected to grow by 6.1 million by 2031 of which 5.2 million (84%) will be due to the assumed level of immigration. The population of working age will also increase, partly because women will be working longer. With a fertility rate of 1.73, Britain is in a completely different situation from Italy and Spain whose fertility rate is about 1.2.

From the Financial Times.

Wouldn't it make more sense, both economically and socially, to encourage native citizens to have more children? Make it economically feasible for couples to have kids and raise them? The short-term solution of brining in immigrants doesn't solve the long-term problem.


As for wage deflation - you seem to think it can only be a bad thing !? Even when it does occur (and I see no evidence of it having happened in W. Europe to-date) it can also be a positive force economically. The UK could certainly do with a healthy dose of it in certain industries that immigrants gravitate towards (e.g. construction, general building)

Actually, it is a bad thing. Unless you have an oligarchial situation, wage deflation is bad for all concerned. It diminishes whatever gain achieved by immigrations whilst perpetuating a poverty trap. This cycle continues as each new wave of immigrants is willing to work for even lower wages than their predecessors.


Spot on!WTF any Irish person is doing slagging Immigration is beyond me.....had to go on phone-in recently to correct Sir Andrew Tw*tface of 'Population Watch' that the basic laws of Economics will apply to a capitalist system & the supposed 'native' population were all a minimum of Norman-saxon mutants anyway............

That's utter nonsense. So just because the Irish were once immigrants we can't ever debate the issue now? Those Norman-Saxon mutations you talk about took centuries to develop and was only achieved after intermenal wars. The Saxons were defeated in battle and conqured. The Normans remained distinct from them for centuries. Such emotive nonsense has no place here.

There is a fundamental disconnect in this debate. You can't just take a large group from one culture and then add it to another and expect nothing bad to happen. It's a potential recipe for disastor. Indeed, you think immigration was good for the American Indians? Look at it this way, if I am wrong then we can always correct the situation whereas if you are wrong it'll be far too late.

[Peadar]

yeah. scally is more commonly used in england. as is chav btw.


Thanks for that little gem of wisdom.
My life in England is far more complete now. :rolleyes:



but the irish hiberno-english word is skanger

It's as though you are asking me to call you a "Skanger" or something!?

With a name like "anto" you deserve to be treated as a stereotype.