2017 NI Assembly Election

[Gather round]

SF leader is more important NIFM? That is an interesting statement

SF leader: aspires to lead a national government

DUP leader: can probably take jointly leading a regional assembly (local authority, really) for granted IF it survives.

You're dancing on a pin here. The Unionist and Nationalist hacks (beardy ****** apart) I named are pretty much equivalent in both unimportance and managerial incompetence. You can only run so far with demonising Foster. Either she goes and you move on, or stays and you back down.

[Wolfman]

Except the unionists per se claim the North is a 'country', so any party leader there is a 'national' leader in theory.

And they also could choose to get rid of Foster and move on.

[DannyInvincible]

Conradh na Gaeilge have come up with a detailed and very informative discussion document looking at the potential workings and practicalities of an Irish language act: https://cnag.ie/images/Acht_Gaeilge_%C3%B3_Thuaidh/Pl%C3%A9ch%C3%A1ip%C3%A9is_ar_Acht_Gaeilge_%C3%B3_ Thuaidh_14.03.17_Cost_of_Act_March_2017.pdf

A BBC report on the development: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39272431


Introducing an Irish language act would cost an initial £8.5m, according to an Irish language group.

Conradh na Gaeilge (CnG) has produced an implementation document detailing what an act would entail.

It estimates that such an act would cost £2m a year to run, in addition to the £8.5m one-off cost.

The group said the intention would be to make implementation of an act "as practical and workable as possible".

The document, which has been seen by the BBC, states that an act should gradually be introduced over a five-year period.

The power of words

It proposes 11 different sections as part of an act covering elements such as use of Irish:

In the Northern Ireland Assembly
By local government and public bodies
In the courts
The document estimates that it would cost £100,000 to establish a central translation department at Stormont.

A further £50,000 would be spent installing a simultaneous translation system in the assembly.

CnG has estimated it would then cost £500,000 a year to run the translation department, including the cost of employing 10 staff.

Among other estimated costs, £372,000 per year would be spent training workers in public bodies to speak Irish.

About £750,000 - £1m would initially be spent translating public websites, forms and documents.

A further £1.5m a year would be used to enable bilingual road signs to be provided.

'Reasonable cost'

The document also recommends that a language commissioner is appointed to ensure the act is being complied with.

It says a commissioner's office would cost between £300,000 and £400,000 per year.

"It is a very reasonable cost, especially if the act is implemented properly and willingly," says CnG.

The document also calls for the BBC to spend £10m on Irish language services.

This would ensure that there would be more Irish language included among the services of the BBC and that costs for this would come from the current budget of the BBC," it states.

"The majority of parties and recently elected MLAs support an Irish language act."

"We now have a unique and historical opportunity to settle this long-running issue."

A consultation document on an act produced by the Department for Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL) in February 2015 did not estimate how much it might cost to implement.

Sinn Féin and the DUP have subsequently disagreed over the cost of Irish language legislation.

DUP leader Arlene Foster has previously said the party would never agree to an Irish language act.

Dr Niall Comer, President of Conradh na Gaeilge, said they wanted to inform people of what an act involved.

"Already, five parties alongside a majority 50 of the 90 newly-elected MLAs support protective legislation for the Irish-language in the form of an act, " he said.

"We are calling on the parties now to come together and support these proposals, and to implement Irish language legislation, as recently recommended by both the Council of Europe and the United Nations, and as was promised over ten years ago in the St Andrew's Agreement."

So, the estimated cost of the act will actually be £2 million per year over five years, plus £8.5 million over the same period as a one-off infrastructure investment. That equates to less than £4 million per year; considerably less than the scaremongering £100 million a year plucked out of, erm, thin air by the DUP.

[DannyInvincible]

Brian Feeney's latest cutting column in the Irish News on the utter uselessness of James Brokenshire made me chuckle so much at Brokenshire's expense that I then almost began to feel sorry for the poor fool: http://www.irishnews.com/opinion/columnists/2017/03/15/news/brian-feeney-brokenshire-is-completely-out-of-his-depth-963021/


We’re told our proconsul for the time being is not going to Washington for St Patrick’s Day celebrations.

That news calls to mind Dorothy Parker’s remark on being told in 1933 that US President Calvin Coolidge had died. She asked, ‘How can they tell?’

How will anyone know whether the proconsul is in DC or Stormont or Westminster?

You can hardly dignify him with the description politician. He’s such a lightweight he rose without trace, a man promoted for unthinking loyalty to Theresa May in her silly futile mission to reduce immigration to ‘tens of thousands’ as David Cameron had promised in 2010.

Cameron knew there was no chance but poor Theresa May believed his promise and tried to deliver it while everyone except herself and our proconsul knew it was impossible, just a figure thrown out to destabilise the Labour party.

Now he’s here, way out of his depth, supposedly running negotiations to restore devolution.

Remember, he has no experience or qualifications of any kind for such an enterprise. Occasionally he emerges to stand like a hologram in front of a doorway intoning a paragraph he’s just learnt which says, well, nothing.

His interview in this paper with John Manley (http://www.irishnews.com/news/politicalnews/2017/03/10/news/james-brokenshire-deal-needed-on-all-legacy-issues-before-inquest-cash-released-960356/) last week was a perfect example of what George Orwell wrote about in his famous essay, ‘Politics and the English Language’: ‘lifeless, defending the indefensible, euphemism, question-begging, sheer cloudy vagueness.’

Mangling the language, debasing it, uttering meaningless claptrap instead of answering questions, but above all, saying nothing. A metaphor for the man.

It’s a shambles up at Stormont. It’s difficult to work out whether the proconsul is so partisan that his aim is to protect his friends in the DUP or whether he’s so inept he doesn’t even know he’s offering gifts to them.

For example he told Sinn Féin there’s no money for legacy inquests because the matter of the past has to be agreed as a whole. Is he too stupid to realise that means he’s therefore told the DUP that all they have to do is disagree and they can stop anything? Or is he doing it deliberately because he’s hand in glove with the DUP? Or is he just so inexperienced as a negotiator he hasn’t a clue?

He certainly hasn’t taken control of talks. There are private talks going on between Sinn Féin and the DUP and going nowhere. The proconsul seems to have no agenda, no sense of realising that restoring devolution is not Sinn Féin’s priority and no plan for addressing what are their priorities.

His idiotic threat to call a new election sums up his lack of aims or objectives. Surely some adviser must have told him that after an election it’s groundhog day with another £5 million of public money burned through to get there?

Clearly he’s a player, so closely allied to the DUP he can’t chair talks, unable to accede to any legitimate request from Sinn Féin in case it discomfits his parliamentary allies.

The fact that Sinn Féin has a mandate almost precisely equal to the DUP’s, with only 1,168 votes separating them is disregarded.

The proconsul seems to consider Sinn Féin as somehow illegitimate, uppity, having no right to make demands on behalf of their electorate.

At no time has he indicated either in his language or behaviour that he regards Sinn Féin as a party with equality of status or parity of esteem.

Of course it’s true that the assembly election result profoundly shocked Downing Street and after discussions there behind closed doors they have no idea what to do.

The result called in question the existence of the north as a viable political entity just as rumblings in Scotland after May’s disastrous, hectoring, offensive speech to Scottish Conservatives in Glasgow on March 3 called the union between England and Scotland in question.

The truth obviously is that since May, the most parochial, small-minded home counties Conservative leader there’s ever been, doesn’t know what to do, then there’s no chance her representative here is going to take any decision, propose any policy or line of action until he’s told what to do.

It must be bewildering for him to accept that Sinn Féin has the initiative.

[BonnieShels]

Of course it’s true that the assembly election result profoundly shocked Downing Street and after discussions there behind closed doors they have no idea what to do.

This is May's government in a nutshell. Shocked by everything and no plan at all. Has there ever been a worse PM? Not in my lifetime and I started with Maggie.

[DannyInvincible]

Irish nationalism is badly named. It isn't a nationalist movement at all. For me nationalism is about the impression of superiority of a nation over others. I Don't think I've ever met a genuine Irish nationalist if one defines it as an Irish equivilant of Serbian nationalism for example. On the other hand in the USA almost everyone is a nationalist. Nobody would ever campaign for political office in Ireland talking about us being a "shining house on the hill" or "beacon of freedom".

During a recent interview, Ben Lowry of the Belfast Newsletter asked Yanis Varoufakis about Sinn Féin's nationalism and how it co-exists with their leftist politics: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/yanis-varoufakis-the-ira-was-terrorism-but-so-was-the-campaign-of-the-british-army-1-7872307

I thought his answer was relevant to our prior discussion.


BL: Some people say Sinn Fein is so nationalistic that it is not left wing.

YV: This is a problem that doesn’t only pertain to Sinn Fein. It pertains to every national liberation movement.

Struggles for national self determination whether they are in Ireland, or in Greece in the 19th century, or in – wherever they happened to take place, Latin America – by their very nature they tend to promote, it is very easy when you are part of such a national liberation struggle to lose sight of the border line between patriotism and nationalism.

Now, from my experience of Sinn Fein, they are not nationalist, they are patriotic, like the SNP, the Scottish National Party, it is remarkable in that it is not nationalistic even thought it calls itself a national party, similarly the Catalonians.

What I think Sinn Fein, the SNP and the Catalan separatists have in common, nationalists have in common, is that they are completely internationalist and they do not see independence for their territory or their country as they see it to be part of nationalist international agenda like Le Pen, like Ukip, like Donald Trump and so on. So there’s a profound difference.

[backstothewall]

Yanis Varoufakis is why the EU presidency won't be an elected position for at least 20 years.

He would win in a landslide.

[BonnieShels]

Would he?

I think he's a bit of a clown.

[BonnieShels]

Brokenshire states that "there is a short window" to agree power-sharing.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0327/862796-stormont-talks/

So after his apparent significant statement that was due to be announced today this is what we got?

No wonder SF had enough of him last week.

[backstothewall]

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir tweeted pics tonight of SF in South Belfast out on the doorsteps. A team of them out knocking doors and delivering "thank you letters" that look a lot suspiciously like campaign literature.

They have seemingly rolled straight back onto election footing again and are practically daring Brokenshire to call another one.

[DannyInvincible]

Would another election be of benefit to Sinn Féin and/or nationalism generally? What's the strategy? I'd fear a unionist backlash.

[BonnieShels]

I can't see how SF would be in a more advantageous position than before. I think they would prefer direct rule and blame DUP intransigence for direct rule.

There would be a unionist backlash. As has been discussed, all those "fifth seats" could easily flip back.

They'd be mad to go back to the people and be realistic, there's little appetite for another one.

[DannyInvincible]

Detractors of Ruth Dudley-Edwards will enjoy this one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oub8ik4S9s4

She is a guest to a discussion, which also features Brian Rowan and Eamonn Mallie, hosted by Al Jazeera's 'Inside Story' programme on the present political stalemate in the north.

Dudley-Edwards asserts that Martin McGuinness would have kept power-sharing going (despite him having pulled the plug on it) because "he'd invested quite a lot of personal reputation in " and further claims that Gerry Adams won't have the same interest because he has made no such personal investment. Does she think that McGuinness was carving out his own path and deviating from Sinn Féin policy or something? Everything McGuinness did was obviously in accordance with Sinn Féin party policy, and thus in tune with Adams' wishes by extension.

She also claims that Sinn Féin are "making a crisis out of Brexit"... What planet is she on? Brexit is a crisis and it's hardly of Sinn Féin's making.

Also, as far as I understand their position, Sinn Féin seek equal treatment for all combatants in the northern conflict, or preferably an international and independently-administered truth and reconciliation process, possibly along South African lines (http://www.sinnfein.ie/ga/contents/993); not "a process with state killers being charged and the IRA getting away with it", as Dudley-Edwards suggests. Gerry Kelly also confirmed that the party advocated parity of treatment on 'The View' recently.

Dudley-Edwards really is abysmal. Eamonn Mallie doesn't hold back and ruthlessly tears her guff to shreds in a comprehensive outline of the situation as it is. His opening comment is a gem:


"Y'know, sometimes I wonder whether we're speaking with an historian when I hear Ruth Dudley-Edwards... [I]What is she talking about?! Where has she been all those years?"

:clap:

[DannyInvincible]

Gerry Adams makes an explicit commitment that he would give evidence to a truth and reconciliation commission during an interview with Sky News last Sunday:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiRV8aLHLsk?#t=6m05s


It isn't about getting British soldiers in the dock. It's about the victims of British soldiers being treated exactly the same as the victims of the IRA or any other combatant force. Our position has been for an international, independent truth commission that everybody can make use off, but we compromised on this issue. And, yes, I believe that victims of the IRA, or at least their relatives, have the right to truth and I believe that those who are victims of British army violence or state violence also have the right to truth. And the British government is holding that back [in terms of the refusal of the British government, despite the instruction of the Lord Chief Justice, to issue the necessary and promised/agreed funding for legacy inquest/investigative mechanisms to be put in place].

...

I have said - and Martin [McGuinness] and I have said this together quite a few times - that we would both do our best [to openly discuss the past] and we would also encourage other republicans to come forward if there was a satisfactory [legacy, truth and reconciliation] arrangement put in place, and that's my commitment. Martin's not here, but that's still my commitment.

[Gather round]

Dudley-Edwards really is abysmal. Eamonn Mallie doesn't hold back and ruthlessly tears her guff to shreds

RDE's clearly a bluffer (and admits she's often on a wind-up), but I thought Mallie came across worse. He sounded arrogant and almost hysterical.

Marty as the Great Man of History carrying SF almost single-handed doesn't convince, but nor really does Eamonn's claim to know the parties' strategy inside-out. Let's face it, do they know it themselves? They're all over the place since the election.


I have said - and Martin [McGuinness] and I have said this together quite a few times - that we would both do our best [to openly discuss the past] and we would also encourage other republicans to come forward if there was a satisfactory [legacy, truth and reconciliation] arrangement put in place, and that's my commitment. Martin's not here, but that's still my commitment

Translated: I'll engage in a dialog about [where the bodies are buried], but only if the Brits squeal first [which of course they won't...]

[Wolfman]

Same old, same old.
Anyone would think there was only one bad party in all of this.

Change the record FFS.

[DannyInvincible]

An excellent piece here written by Amnesty International's Patrick Corrigan on the present impasse regarding the dealing with legacy issues in the north: http://eamonnmallie.com/2017/04/solution-gordian-knot-dealing-past-patrick-corrigan/

He also looks at suggestions as to how to move the process forward so as to ensure the UK satisfies its ECHR obligations and truth, justice and reconciliation can be realised as best as possible.

[DannyInvincible]

Sean Swan of the London School of Economics argues that direct rule from Westminster would be "incompatible with parity of esteem": http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/direct-rule-the-implications-of-the-snap-election-for-northern-ireland/


The only form of Direct Rule which is compatible with the spirit of the Agreement is some form of joint rule by London and Dublin, whether the minimalist joint authority or joint sovereignty. Joint authority would be simple to institute and would meet the requirement for parity of esteem. Joint sovereignty would be more convoluted (and would require a referendum in the Republic), but has certain advantages:

It would help disaggregate sovereignty within these islands;
It would be a formal and permanent institutional recognition of the British/Irish nature of Northern Ireland;
It would help ensure a ‘soft’ border between north and south, and
It would help facilitate keeping Northern Ireland within the EU.
Under the joint sovereignty of Dublin and London, parity of esteem would be fulfilled and both communities would have a sovereign power with direct control over Northern Ireland to prevent any form of community-based discrimination. Under such conditions it could prove possible to reframe the Assembly without the consociational elements such as ‘designation’ and the requirement for ‘cross-community consent’. This might, or might not, allow for the emergence of ‘normal’ politics. At least the removal of the consociational elements would satisfy those liberal critics who saw in it the ‘institutionalisation of sectarianism’.

[DannyInvincible]

For what it's worth, here's an interesting list of other condominia (or political territories in or over which two or more sovereign powers formally agree to share equal dominium) around the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condominium_(international_law)

[DannyInvincible]

So, Arlene is now on a "journey" of discovery and visited Our Lady's Grammar School in Newry today to engage with Irish speakers, even saying "go raibh maith agat" as she departed: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-39717243

And, tomorrow, she's to meet with Conradh na Gaeilge: http://www.irishnews.com/news/politicalnews/2017/04/26/news/dup-to-meet-irish-language-group-conradh-na-gaeilge-on-thursday-1007359/

It seems the assembly election results have encouraged her to reflect on matters. Of course, there's another election approaching, and a cynic might point to that, but engagement with and outreach in respect of the Irish language is a very positive development nonetheless, just as was her attendance at Martin McGuinness' funeral. Is this a new approach from Arlene and the DUP? It's very welcome, if so.

[BonnieShels]

Talks suspended til after the UKGE17. Whoop.

http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0427/870855-stormont-talks-suspended/

[DannyInvincible]

The talks deadline for the restoration of power-sharing is set for 4PM tomorrow afternoon, although I don't see much chance of a breakthrough. Brian Rowan summarised what essentially needs to happen here (and it's not very likely it'll all come together): http://eamonnmallie.com/2017/06/heavy-lifting-noses-joint-brian-rowan/

Meanwhile, the DUP have been complaining in knee-jerk fashion about the Irish government's expression of support for a stand-alone Irish language act: https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0628/886087-stormont/


The DUP has questioned the Government's neutrality after it reiterated its commitment to an Irish Language Act in Northern Ireland, a key demand of Sinn Féin in power-sharing negotiations.

Chair of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee Christopher Stalford said: "By publicly declaring its support for Sinn Féin's position in negotiations, the Irish Government has undermined its own credibility as being neutral" and called on Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney to "address this".

:rolleyes:

Is this going to be the tedious DUP's go-to complaint now any time the Irish government makes an utterance on northern affairs, just because they themselves (the DUP) have had the spotlight shone on them after compromising the British government's obligatory impartiality by virtue of their grubby deal with the Tories? If it is, then their understanding of the GFA is somewhat faulty. The GFA obliges that "the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction [over the north of Ireland] shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality". That obviously refers to the UK government at the present moment in time. Considering the Irish government doesn't presently enjoy jurisdiction over the north, it is under no such obligation to maintain neutrality.

Even if the Irish government was duty-bound to remain neutral in its northern dealings, a declaration of support for an Irish language act from the Irish government would not be unreasonable or necessarily partial anyhow, considering the act is not merely a Sinn Féin demand. It's something to which the British government has committed in writing and is also backed by multiple other parties (not just nationalist ones). The Irish government might as well be simply asking the British government to fulfil a promise.

In relation to the duplicitous British government's commitment to the provision of an act, the words of Peter Robinson (published earlier today) are both interesting and troubling: https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/06/28/irish-language-act-dr-paisley-had-been-intensely-displeased-by-the-blair-administrations-trickery/


In his recollection of events during the 2006 St Andrews’ talks, Mr Robinson said that while Sinn Féin genuinely believed an agreement to implement an Irish Language Act had been reached, there had been only “a tongue in cheek” promise by the [British] government. Mr Robinson said the issue was “never raised” with his party during the negotiations. He believes a reference was inserted into the agreement at the very end of the talks.

“We were not informed of any change to the document,” he said. When the DUP noticed the “added section”, it informed the government that it was “unacceptable” to the party. “We were told the section had been carefully and deliberately worded. It was not an issue that should cause us any concern,” Mr Robinson said.

“They informed us that as devolution would be up and running the government would not make good its commitment as the power would be devolved. At no stage did Ian commit the party to accepting an Irish Language Act and indeed we made sure there was no commitment to it in the legislation.”

It appears perfidious Albion has struck again.

[DannyInvincible]

Brian Feeney offers his view as to why he thinks there's a political impasse at present: http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/06/30/news/brian-feeney-opinion-1071681/


[For the DUP to] accept an Irish language act would be the admission that [the unionist policy of culturally cleansing the north of signs of its Irishness], almost a century old, has ended in abject, total failure. It would be an acceptance that the north is part of Ireland and the DUP lives in part of Ireland.

That goes to the heart of the problem here which is identity and allegiance, two versions, one of which has been suppressed.

When Sinn Féin talk about equality it’s not just equality for LGBT people, it’s equality of status and parity of esteem for those with an Irish identity and allegiance. The DUP cannot accept that, which is why they’ve never accepted the thinking behind the Good Friday Agreement. We’re stuck because we’ve reached the nub of the matter.

He's probably not far wrong. The DUP have frequently raised concerns about the potential cost of an Irish language act. In fact, this is supposedly one of the reasons as to why they oppose it. However, now they're asking for the insertion of recognition and provision for Ulster-Scots into any legislation as well. Wouldn't that be likely to increase the cost of any such act?

Clearly, either the "cost" excuse was an insincere red herring or they're demanding the inclusion of Ulster-Scots now as a stalling/disruption tactic (because they know full well that anything other than a stand-alone Irish language act simply isn't happening). It's definitely one or the other, although my suspicion is that both the excuse and demand are disingenuous attempts to obstruct formal legal recognition and support for the Irish language. Why don't they just be honest about it and admit their actual problem with it?

The idea that legal provision for Ulster-Scots might be required in order to put the unionist or British tradition on a par with the nationalist or Gaelic tradition is a suspect one anyway, seeing as we all already speak English and that fact is rooted in the historical domination of unionist or British culture in Ireland, so the unionist or British tradition evidently already enjoys lingua-cultural supremacy.

An Irish language act would thus be a move to elevate the Irish language towards some degree of equilibrium or parity, but if the DUP do still truly want legal support and recognition Ulster-Scots, then get the ball rolling and start working towards an act for that. I don't think any party with political clout in the north would oppose that in principle. I would have no qualms with it. In fact, I'd encourage it for reasons of cultural enrichment. People just fail to see why it should be tagged on to an Irish language act, seeing as they're two totally different languages (or dialects, or however you wish to classify Ulster-Scots) with different histories and different legislative needs on account of differing educational and societal demands.

GR; why exactly is it that you dismiss (http://foot.ie/threads/221573-NI-Westminster-Election-2017/page5?p=1925552#post1925552) the concept of parity of esteem as a "soundbite", "meaningless" and "about as philosophical as apple-pie"? Do you not acknowledge (or accept even) the principle behind the term and the political, legal and cultural necessities of that?

[Gather round]

See answer on parallel GE thread. I've already made clear my own equally low esteem for the DUP and SF...

On the Language Act, I support it as you know- a deal (at St Andrew's) is a deal. Did you hear the DUP's Christopher Stalford on BBC AQ at the weekend? He claimed this as an example of Tony Blair's craftiness, as if TB was to blame for Robinson not bothering to read the small print...

Quick question assuming the Law gets enacted. Will the replacement of street signs etc. be rolled out everywhere, or can local residents vote on it as before?

PS Unsurprisingly Brian Feeney can't resist some purple prose. Culturally cleansing NI of its Irishness? Has he never waded through the Holy Land's rivers of boke on Paddy's Night?

In the 80s, Unionist friends of mine returning from college or jobs in Britain used to moan about how much more 'Irish-looking' Belfast had become. If the DUP are losing the Culture War, their Stalingrad came a long time ago...

[backstothewall]

a deal (at St Andrew's) is a deal.

Of course it is. And it's a deal with the British government. SF know this. The DUP know this.

The first thing SF will do in the event of direct rule is present their IOU to the new proconsul. If the British fail to pass it they'll accuse them of welching on the deal at St. Andrews. Give it 18 months for the RHI enquiry to report and an ILA to be passed by the British and their 2 key demands will be granted without them having to give up a damn thing. As well as that the sunset clause of cross community support for the justice ministry will have expired and the brits will bring gay marriage into line with the western world.

At that time they can get a few more goodies for going back in.

There is no reason for them to go back in now.

[DannyInvincible]

Quick question assuming the Law gets enacted. Will the replacement of street signs etc. be rolled out everywhere, or can local residents vote on it as before?

I'm not sure, but I'd be surprised if it was imposed upon reluctant communities.

Coincidentally, I just happened to be reading about the "Protestant village" of Drum (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/welcome-to-drum-the-only-protestant-village-in-republic-of-ireland-34896902.html) in County Monaghan yesterday evening. Supposedly, it's one of the few villages/towns south of the border that doesn't have the place-name in both Irish and English on the welcome sign at the entrance to the village/town. It just has its name spelled in English.


PS Unsurprisingly Brian Feeney can't resist some purple prose. Culturally cleansing NI of its Irishness? Has he never waded through the Holy Land's rivers of boke on Paddy's Night?

Well, he did say the policy had failed abjectly and totally!


In the 80s, Unionist friends of mine returning from college or jobs in Britain used to moan about how much more 'Irish-looking' Belfast had become.

It is an Irish city, after all. In what sense did they feel it was "more Irish-looking" than it had previously looked?

[DannyInvincible]

Just on the Irish language act and road signs, looking at page 23 of the recommendations document (https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/15ma2017-plechaipeis-ar-acht-gaeilge-o-thuaidh.pdf#page=23) published by Conradh na Gaeilge back in March, they suggest that "road signs should be bilingual" and don't appear to make any exceptions. Perhaps it will apply to all signage then.

[BonnieShels]

I'm not sure, but I'd be surprised if it was imposed upon reluctant communities.

Coincidentally, I just happened to be reading about the "Protestant village" of Drum (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/welcome-to-drum-the-only-protestant-village-in-republic-of-ireland-34896902.html) in County Monaghan yesterday evening. Supposedly, it's one of the few villages/towns south of the border that doesn't have the place-name in both Irish and English on the welcome sign at the entrance to the village/town. It just has its name spelled in English.



Well, he did say the policy had failed abjectly and totally!



It is an Irish city, after all. In what sense did they feel it was "more Irish-looking" than it had previously looked?

Coincidentally while looking for something on RTÉ's archive today I stumbled across this news report from 1971.

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2016/0630/799276-protestants-living-on-the-border/

---

[Eminence Grise]

Drum: no better name for a Protestant town on these shores.

[Gather round]

Bttw:

Agreed, SF will present the shopping list. Don't ye think accusing the Brits of bad faith is a bit passe though? I mean, they'll do it anyway regardless of what actually happens, so it's a bit Boy crying Wolf...

The age-old consensus on equal marriage across the Western World has applied in its leading member since...last Thursday, and even then Angela Merkel voted against. The idea of Shinners as some sort of feminist vanguard is a bit rum- then there's abortion, where the UVF party are rather more down with the sisterhood ;)

DI:

Can't see the bilingual street signs across Carrick or Larne anytime soon. The locals will likely be not reluctant but belligerent, the signs would inevitably be vandalised and there would probably be wider disorder....sorry, I mean 'threats to the peace process'. Whatever Conradh na Gaelige say, 'contracting in' small areas would be more sensible

My mates back in the day were grumbling as far as I remember about marking of territory (ie tricolors around town) and simplistic 'marketing' (ie shops and cafes featuring 'Cead Mille Failte' in Ogham script

[BonnieShels]

You surely mean "Gaelic Type"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_type

[Gather round]

You surely mean "Gaelic Type"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_type

Indeed. A careless error, my apologies.

[DannyInvincible]

Can't see the bilingual street signs across Carrick or Larne anytime soon. The locals will likely be not reluctant but belligerent, the signs would inevitably be vandalised and there would probably be wider disorder....sorry, I mean 'threats to the peace process'. Whatever Conradh na Gaelige say, 'contracting in' small areas would be more sensible

I'd tend to agree. If certain communities wish to opt out, I'd be inclined to favour letting them do so. It's both respectful of their wishes and would diminish the likelihood of provoking animosity or disorder.


My mates back in the day were grumbling as far as I remember about marking of territory (ie tricolors around town) and simplistic 'marketing' (ie shops and cafes featuring 'Cead Mille Failte' in Ogham script

The nationalist community undoubtedly gained in confidence from the late '60s onward, but your mates mustn't know their unionist history (http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.ie/2013_12_01_archive.html) either.

Here's a sketch from 1849 when Queen Victoria and Prince Albert were welcomed to Belfast by unionists with the Irish greeting adorning a constructed "royal triumphal archway" on High Street:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdJTMViWIAAWNqX.jpg

The unionist News Letter also greeted the visitors with a "Céad míle fáilte!" in both headline (it was William Crawley who I heard mentioning that in a BBC NI documentary about the Ulster(-Scots) identity (http://foot.ie/threads/175511-The-Flag-Issue-Cheist-an-Bratach-The-Fleg-Prooblum?p=1809367&viewfull=1#post1809367)) and from an office window.

An interesting related passage from a book called Theorizing Identities and Social Action here (https://books.google.ie/books?id=yx1-DAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA223&ots=j5ZLKz9iH8&dq=%22cead%20mile%20failte%22%20%22newsletter%22%2 01849&pg=PA223#v=onepage&q&f=false) as well:

https://i.imgur.com/VmXvgCl.png

And a photo from the Ulster Unionist Convention of 1892 with a harp and "ERIN GO BRAGH" emblazoned across the front of the building in Botanic Gardens in which the gathering was taking place:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjkK1yPCYAAdt2q.jpg

[Gather round]

I'd tend to agree. If certain communities wish to opt out, I'd be inclined to favour letting them do so. It's both respectful of their wishes and would diminish the likelihood of provoking animosity or disorder

Just to clarify, I meant above that localised areas should decide whether they want this. I wasn't pre-determining how few or many of them would. We can guess, of course. I'm guessing there won't be a Bothar Sean Chill, for example...


The nationalist community undoubtedly gained in confidence from the late '60s onward, but your mates mustn't know their unionist history (http://amgobsmacked.blogspot.ie/2013_12_01_archive.html) either

They probably weren't as interested in it as you or I. Not all Prods are obsessed with events centuries ago ;)

[DannyInvincible]

An excellent piece by Colm Dore on the present impasse in the north and the clarifying reality that Brexit has elicited in terms of the imperious nature of unionism: http://eamonnmallie.com/2017/12/dealing-unavoidable-reality-colm-dore/