2017 Fixtures

[ger121]

Surprised nobody has posted about this yet but I thought the League Fixtures were due out today? What good is a brand report if the governing body of Irish Football, can't even deliver the fixtures on the due date. Amateur hour again!

[Mark]

Journalists at the brand launch thing on Thursday were told FAI Council are meeting tomorrow (Tuesday) to 'ratify league structure for 2017'. I assume fix can't be announced until after that. However, some twitter accounts in the know tweeted that it would be today........

[nigel-harps1954]

Where was it announced the fixtures were out today? The banter pages?

[ger121]

Yeah lot of talk on Twitter & FB that they would be out today. Maybe I should stop sourcing my media from these sources!

[cobhlad]

This whole situation would have been avoided if an official date was actually announced in advance, similar to other leagues. Leaving it up to unofficial sources is not good enough from those heading the league.

[nigel-harps1954]

To be honest, I'm more worried that we're set to end up with three teams relegated this season coming.

[ger121]

To be honest, I'm more worried that we're set to end up with three teams relegated this season coming.

You and me both.

[sbgawa]

You and me both.

Not claiming to be in the know in any way but the vibe form the bigger clubs is for a ten team league so that's it imo

[ger121]

Not claiming to be in the know in any way but the vibe form the bigger clubs is for a ten team league so that's it imo

No surprise there really. If it isn't definitely in for 2017, it surely will by 2018.

[nigel-harps1954]

Just had great craic reading the public outcry on the banter pages of the lack of fixtures today. People should really stop believing what they read on those pages.

[EatYerGreens]

Not claiming to be in the know in any way but the vibe form the bigger clubs is for a ten team league so that's it imo

Because tinkering with the size of the divisions is the magic bullet to solve all the League's many challenges, and has never been tried before.

[gufcfan]

tinkering with the size of the divisions is the magic bullet to solve all the League's many challenges

Nobody thinks it is. It's just a handy way for them to appear to be affecting change, when at best, they have done nothing but damage one league in favour of another. The First Division will not benefit from having even more teams with nothing to play for outside playoff sports with no relegation.

[Dodge]

This whole situation would have been avoided if an official date was actually announced in advance, similar to other leagues. Leaving it up to unofficial sources is not good enough from those heading the league.

They usually do let people know in advance

They've said nothing at all this year

[harps1954]

Nobody thinks it is. It's just a handy way for them to appear to be affecting change, when at best, they have done nothing but damage one league in favour of another. The First Division will not benefit from having even more teams with nothing to play for outside playoff sports with no relegation.

I've been told that 5 of the 10 Premier Division clubs (excluding Drogheda and Limerick) are in favour of a 10 team league from 2018. I'd say we could safely guess who the five clubs are. These same clubs are the ones complaining of fixture congestion but are now happy to fit in an extra three league games in 2018 (probably making five rounds of midweek fixtures). A 36 game season instead of a 33 game season. First Division will increase from a 28 game season to a 36 game season also.

What it means is that this season the League will see the bottom three in the Premier Division relegated and the top team in the First promoted. No play-offs. Next season (2018) it will be one up, one down with the potential of 2nd last in Premier playing 2nd in the First (but this is far from a given).

The FAI Board are meeting today to ratify these changes. To make this point again, this is the TOP clubs in the Premier Division pushing for this change. Not the First Division clubs and not the clubs who traditionally would be seen as bottom half Premier Division clubs.

What other League would see a quarter of their clubs relegated in the one season?

It hasn't worked twice before and it won't work again.

[Bray Head]

Who actually gets to vote on the structure of the league. Is it the clubs or FAI Council ?. If its the clubs then 5 for change as opposed to 13 against.

[brendy_éire]

I've been told that 5 of the 10 Premier Division clubs (excluding Drogheda and Limerick) are in favour of a 10 team league from 2018. I'd say we could safely guess who the five clubs are.

Could we? The three Dublin clubs, plus Dundalk and Cork maybe?
And, excuse my ignorance, can five clubs out of 20 effectively decide the structure of the league?
I do get the thinking behind balancing up the number of teams in both divisions, but it's rubbish playing teams four times a year, and that's just in the league. You'll likely be playing a few clubs five times, after you add the FAI and League Cup.

You'd presume that the Premier fixtures will be out some stage this week. Been years since they were released after Christmas. Still don't understand why they can't be announced in November.

[nigel-harps1954]

Who actually gets to vote on the structure of the league. Is it the clubs or FAI Council ?. If its the clubs then 5 for change as opposed to 13 against.

You really think a Cabinteely or Athlone Town are going to have a bigger voice than Shamrock Rovers or Dundalk?

Bigger clubs always have the bigger say, and that's exactly what's happening right now.

Swings and roundabouts here, this is a horrendous decision by the big clubs who only care about having more games against the other bigger clubs rather than working together to improve the league overall. Simple case of looking after themselves again.

Relegation this season could kill Finn Harps I'd fear. And not in a Drogheda/Waterford sort of "could kill us", as in, it could actually kill us.

[El-Pietro]

How do we know any clubs are pushing for it? This was one of the terrible recommendations in the terrible report that the terrible FAI had produced last year.

[harps1954]

FAI Council / Board are meeting today and this is one of the items on the Agenda so they will have make the ultimate decision. However, the top 10 Premier Division clubs at the end of last season were 'consulted' about what they thought was the best set-up for the Division. 5 want a 10 team top flight, 5 want to remain as it it (or even increase the numbers). Drogheda or Limerick weren't asked for their opinion or were the current 8 First Division clubs.

However, the influence of the 'Big Five' along with the Conroy Report will see a 10 Team top flight introduced for the 2018 season. In order for this to happen, 3 teams will be relegated this season with 1 promoted from the First Division.

Because of the FAI running the League, the club's don't have a massive say in the structure of the League - it's certainly not put to a vote of the 20 clubs. But, there has been a 'proposal' tabled (pushed by the Big Five I have no doubt) and this is what the FAI is considering today. If the 20 clubs were asked to vote on it, you can be damn sure that there would not be a minimum of 11 voting to decrease the number from 12 to 10.

The delay in the fixtures being issued is because of the FAI Board / Council meeting taking place today. It will probably be tomorrow before the fixtures are announced at this stage.

At no point so far have the FAI announced any fixture release date - they usually give a 24 hour notice of when they will be released, so expect that today and fixtures released tomorrow.

[El-Pietro]

Where are you getting this information from. Who are the "big 5". Why are they considered "Big", is it because they have finished near the top? Is it because they are pushing for this?

Not a single source has been quoted here, people are taking rumour as fact. If we have a ten team league it will be because the FAI want it.

[Lim till i die]

If relegation could kill finn harps it doesn't say much for the people running finn harps, even with one down and one playoff they're kind of rolling the dice.

As to the "big five" why in the name of jaysus would bohs want three relegated this year. I know as a club they employ admitted sex offenders and sell bits of land more than once but voting to relegate yourself would be extra dumb.

For my own part, I'm in favour of ten teams provided Limerick finish in the top ten. If they don't I think it's a ridiculous idea.

[harps1954]

Where are you getting this information from. Who are the "big 5". Why are they considered "Big", is it because they have finished near the top? Is it because they are pushing for this?

Not a single source has been quoted here, people are taking rumour as fact. If we have a ten team league it will be because the FAI want it.

I'm just using the term 'Big 5' - I don't know the 5 clubs. However, the teams who finished 1-10 in the Premier Division have been meeting about this. Some of those 10 wanted all 20 clubs considered. Five of the 10 want a 10 team top flight. The other 5 don't. That's before the remaining 10 clubs are even asked for their opinion. I don't know if it is the FAI who have asked these 10 clubs for their opinion, or if it is the 10 clubs being brought together. However, the FAI are using the Conroy report and the findings of these 10 Premier clubs in the meeting today in Abbotstown and all indications are that this will be the outcome. And, it has been reported in a number of sources last week (Irish Times on Friday/Saturday) that FAI were meeting on this today.

Whether you want to believe it or not these meetings have happened and it's a split decision of 5 for and 5 against as to a 10 Team League in 2018. However, that's all it it at present - a discussion between the 10 teams that I mentioned. However, the FAI are well aware of the discussions and this is being used today in their meeting. It will be announced that this is one of the findings of the Conroy Report (which it is) but it's the only finding that is being implemented. Remember Conroy also proposed a mid-season split. This is not going to happen.

What I can't understand is that the likes of Cork and Dundalk this season complained about fixture congestion and too many midweek fixtures. Assuming they are two of the 5 that want to decrease from 12 to 10 (nothing to say they are 2 of the 5 though) but they can't then complain about fixture congestion and too many midweek fixtures when they have backed a proposal to increase the number of games from 33 to 36.

And remember, Conroy came out with the 10 team idea based on discussions with clubs / sponsors / key stakeholders. I wonder did the FAI / Conroy consult with the major stakeholder before today's vote - THE SUPPORTERS.

[Ezeikial]

What I can't understand is that the likes of Cork and Dundalk this season complained about fixture congestion and too many midweek fixtures. Assuming they are two of the 5 that want to decrease from 12 to 10 (nothing to say they are 2 of the 5 though) but they can't then complain about fixture congestion and too many midweek fixtures when they have backed a proposal to increase the number of games from 33 to 36.



So, you don't know if Cork and Dundalk are in favour of this change or not?

[El-Pietro]

He still hasn't said where hes getting this information.

[brendy_éire]

I wonder did the FAI / Conroy consult with the major stakeholder before today's vote - THE SUPPORTERS.

We prefer the term 'tribes' now.

[harps1954]

He still hasn't said where hes getting this information.

I know someone that was involved in the 'process' over the last couple of months.

Here's a bit from today's Irish Times on it: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/premier-division-likely-to-be-reduced-to-10-teams-but-contentious-points-remain-1.2912897

[El-Pietro]

I know someone that was involved in the 'process' over the last couple of months.

Here's a bit from today's Irish Times on it: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/national-league/premier-division-likely-to-be-reduced-to-10-teams-but-contentious-points-remain-1.2912897

You know someone involved and yet you don't remember that the Conroy report did seek input from fans through online surveys? You also know that its "5 teams" but you don't know which 5? That sounds odd to me.

Forgive me if I don't take this as gospel. I don't doubt that we may well go to a 10 team league, but there is no evidence to say that any clubs are driving that. The only clubs mentioned in that article are Pats and Rovers but without any quotes.
Several clubs have been key players in the PCA.

[harps1954]

I know it's five clubs, but don't know who they are. A lot of what I have said in this thread is in that report by Emmet Malone who has his ear very much to the ground in all things LOI.

The jist of what I was saying is that a select few clubs want a 10 team league and that a lot of club aren't even been afforded the opportunity to be involved in these discussions - 1st Division clubs in particular.

The 20 clubs in the League should be of equal standing - isn't that what being involved in a League is all about. But they're not. The 10 team league is something that is driven from a handful of clubs who feel they shouldn't have to be playing games against the likes of Harps, Longford, Waterford, Wexford etc. as they see it as bringing the standard of the league down. They think that all games should involve big Dublin derbies with a select few from outside the pale like Cork, Derry and Sligo.

And, just because the Conroy Report suggests a 10 team league doesn't make it the right decision. Why in this country do we constantly change things, realise they are wrong but go and do the same thing again in a few years time. The 10 team league didn't work in the past and all it will do is send more clubs to the graveyard that is the First Division.

[El-Pietro]

I didn't day it was a good idea. I said it was a terrible idea. But the FAI are bought into it.

[harps1954]

10 Team League confirmed for 2018 season. FAI will make official announce shortly.

[NeverFeltBetter]

The FAI have given up on getting new clubs into the league with this. They're just moving pieces around to make it seem better. At least it's not bleak!

A real dogfight in the bottom half next year. Limerick, Galway, Harps, Bohs, Drogs could all be scrambling for 9th depending on how things turn out.

No play-offs in the First could also turn that division into a real bore if one team pulls away.

[legendz]

10 Team League confirmed for 2018 season. FAI will make official announce shortly.
Hmmmm.. the last time they had 10 the decision was taken to revert back to 12.

I hope it doesn't pull up the drawbridge on any teams progressing in the underage leagues who might look to join at senior level.

[Longfordian]

Is there anything to be said for a good DVD?

[sbgawa]

Not good ....diversity is what is good about the league.

[Neish]

If relegation could kill finn harps it doesn't say much for the people running finn harps, even with one down and one playoff they're kind of rolling the dice.


Harps didn't have a Pat O’Sullivan over the past 6-7 years to bring in loads of money or don't a city full of local companies in which to source sponsors, most of the big companies in Donegal are foreign owned and conduct their business outside of Ireland so have little to zero interest in sponsoring a Irish football team. The Harps board and day to day staff(outside of playing staff and team management) are all volunteers who do the work in their free time many after working full time jobs.

They have done tremendous work to keep the club ticking over for past 10 years or so, getting promoted in 2015 and staying up in 2016 on a fraction of the budget the team around them were spending was nothing shorty of miraculous

[bluewhitearmy]

Harps didn't have a Pat O’Sullivan over the past 6-7 years to bring in loads of money or don't a city full of local companies in which to source sponsors, most of the big companies in Donegal are foreign owned and conduct their business outside of Ireland so have little to zero interest in sponsoring a Irish football team. The Harps board and day to day staff(outside of playing staff and team management) are all volunteers who do the work in their free time many after working full time jobs.

They have done tremendous work to keep the club ticking over for past 10 years or so, getting promoted in 2015 and staying up in 2016 on a fraction of the budget the team around them were spending was nothing shorty of miraculous

None of that changes his point though. If the club were banking on staying up even if leagues stayed the same it doesn't say much and they were in trouble anyway.

[Charlie Darwin]

If 10 years in the First Division didn't kill Harps how would relegation after two years do the same? From what I've seen, Harps aren't overspending and they have a good core of local players who can be relied upon to stay unless Derry come calling, plus they have the capability to be one of the top 7 or 8 supported teams in the country. That seems a pretty stable base for a club in either division.

[gufct]

Instead of actually looking at real change where the league would be marketed and financed properly the Fai decide to change the deckchairs on the titanic. 10 team premier didn't work before Won't work now.

We have teams already spending crazy money to ensure survival or of whom Bray has probably the smallest support in the league . The last 2 reports that the fai have published have done nothing bar saying that JD and the fai are brilliant in the way they administer the league and it's all the clubs and supporters fault that the league is struggling.

[Philosophizer]

10 team premier didn't work before Won't work now.

Im not going to get too worked up about this change in structure.
As you said, its basically rearranging deck chairs so the fai can give the appearance of trying to improve the league without actually doing anything drastic.
The underage leagues have been a big success the fai have improved other things like introducing the wage rules, but a blind man can see that the main issues affecting the LOi are that the facilities need improving, clubs need more money, and the league needs to be promoted and marketed better, WAY better.
Changing to a 10 team premier has some benefits though. The premier will become more competitive, and the 1st div can now become a proper division. In fairness, an 8 team division is a complete joke.
The austrian premier has been 10 teams for yrs and they seem to get along ok.

[MattB11]

Any word on the fixtures?

[EatYerGreens]

Im not going to get too worked up about this change in structure.
As you said, its basically rearranging deck chairs so the fai can give the appearance of trying to improve the league without actually doing anything drastic.
The underage leagues have been a big success the fai have improved other things like introducing the wage rules, but a blind man can see that the main issues affecting the LOi are that the facilities need improving, clubs need more money, and the league needs to be promoted and marketed better, WAY better.

Basically, the FAI is only interested in implementing change to the LOI that doesn't cost them money. Their Number 1, 2 and 3 concerns as an organisation are clearly paying down the debt on Lansdowne Road. Until that's done they won't be 'wasting'any money on less important issues like the League. I just hope that by the time they accomplish that objective that a) There s something of a league left for them to consider supporting, and b) that they haven't got wedded to a culture of not funding the LOI.


Changing to a 10 team premier has some benefits though. The premier will become more competitive,

Will it ? Surely it'll only be more competitive at the bottom, as it's not going to magically make mid and lower table teams any better. And will fans not tire of playing the same old teams all the time ?


and the 1st div can now become a proper division. In fairness, an 8 team division is a complete joke.

Maybe if the FAI made entry into the LOI more attractive and less financially punishing, they would've been able to get a 10 team First Division without having to plunder the Prem to do so.


The austrian premier has been 10 teams for yrs and they seem to get along ok.

There is no genuine comparison between the LOI and the Austrian League. Not on attendances, stadiums, popular appeal etc. Leaving aside Dundalk and Rovers' Europa League exploits, our peer group in terms of how the LOI is set up, funded and attended is much closer to the likes of the Irish and Welsh Leagues. Sad but true.

[gufct]

The meeting was last night no official word anywhere on what happened and no Fixtures. FAI only interested in change if its costs them nothing rather than actually spending money and doing their Jobs.



it

[harps1954]

The meeting was last night no official word anywhere on what happened and no Fixtures.

Which actually begs the questions, is there something going on in the background that nobody is aware of? Could there be some sort of legal challenge from a club / group of clubs about the change? Or, it is a case that they just haven't even bothered to draw up the fixture list yet?

[pineapple stu]

The fixture list should be the same regardless of how many are going down surely?

[harps1954]

The fixture list should be the same regardless of how many are going down surely?

You would think so. But it usually includes dates for play-offs, etc. so if it's reducing to 10 they're won't be any play-offs.

[sbgawa]

This is mad Lads. we are all LOI supporters who want to start thinking about next season and it looks like we will be waiting until early January before we know who the hell we are playing in Feb.
Half the craic is planning and thinking about trips and easy or hard starts etc etc....whats keeping them GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Philosophizer]

Will it ? Surely it'll only be more competitive at the bottom, as it's not going to magically make mid and lower table teams any better. And will fans not tire of playing the same old teams all the time ?

What i meant is that the prem div would be minus 2 weaker sides, which means the standard of the div as a whole will be higher, provided there are no major changes in other variables like prize money etc.
Teams already play each other at least 3 (and sometimes as often as 6) times a year. Changing from a minimum of 3 meetings a year to a minimum of 4 meetings a year isn't enormous. For me it's a price worth paying to make the 1st div a 10 team league.


Maybe if the FAI made entry into the LOI more attractive and less financially punishing, they would've been able to get a 10 team First Division without having to plunder the Prem to do so.

That would be the perfect scenario wouldn't it, but as you said yourself, the FAI will be spending sweet F all on the league until the Aviva is paid off so i won't be holding my breath for them to make it less financially challenging for newcomers any time soon. In the meantime, we need to make the best possible structure we can from the current 20 clubs.

[nigel-harps1954]

What i meant is that the prem div would be minus 2 weaker sides, which means the standard of the div as a whole will be higher, provided there are no major changes in other variables like prize money etc.
Teams already play each other at least 3 (and sometimes as often as 6) times a year. Changing from a minimum of 3 meetings a year to a minimum of 4 meetings a year isn't enormous. For me it's a price worth paying to make the 1st div a 10 team league.



That would be the perfect scenario wouldn't it, but as you said yourself, the FAI will be spending sweet F all on the league until the Aviva is paid off so i won't be holding my breath for them to make it less financially challenging for newcomers any time soon. In the meantime, we need to make the best possible structure we can from the current 20 clubs.

So, you're agreeing that this change actually provides no benefit at all other than making the First Division look marginally better off?

[Philosophizer]

So, you're agreeing that this change actually provides no benefit at all other than making the First Division look marginally better off?
Making the prem a higher standard is another benefit imho.
Given we have 20 teams and the fai seem set on having 2 divisions it only makes sense to have 2 10-team divisions.

[bluewhitearmy]

I do actually think it could improve the first division if they keep the play offs better clubs and better standard of player will have to drop down there. First wasn't half as dire when at one stage there was the likes of us Waterford Shels Monaghan with decent teams and the times Derry and Cork were there. I know there won't be a play off this year due to the change like but if it was brought back once it was 10 and 10 then could have some really competitive years in the first.