FIFA disciplinary proceedings over 1916 Easter Rising logo.

[osarusan]

Don't know if this is the right forum for it, but: FIFA has opened disciplinary proceedings because of the 1916 Rising Centenary logo that Ireland had on their shirts for a March friendly against Switzerland.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/37872020


The Republic's players had the years 1916-2016 on their shirts during a friendly against Switzerland in March.

Fifa's decision comes amid discussions with the English and Scottish football associations over wearing poppies for their Armistice Day match.

The most likely punishment will be a fine, the BBC's Richard Conway reports.

A Fifa spokeswoman confirmed proceedings had been opened, adding: "We cannot comment further at this stage nor speculate on any outcome."

[OwlsFan]

A section of law four, which deals specifically with players' equipment, reads: "Equipment must not have any political, religious or personal slogans, statements or images.

"Players must not reveal undergarments that show political, religious, personal slogans, statements or images, or advertising other than the manufacturer's logo.

"For any infringement the player and/or the team will be sanctioned by the competition organiser, national football association or to be justified by Fifa.

The crest of most countries, contains a political statement or image. Don't the Iranians call themselves the Islamic Republic on their badge? I think FIFA, who have enough issues as it is, are digging a hole for themselves.

[Stuttgart88]

If I'm to be critical of the FA over their poppy stance I think I'd have to also side with FIFA over this. Though as OF says, FIFA are digging a hole for themselves by not turning a blind eye, even if I think technically they're right.

[tricky_colour]

This was a 100 year event the poppy thing is every year.

[Stuttgart88]

...but both can be deemed political. For argument's sake I'd say the Rising and the Poppy both appeal to the more nationalistic instincts in each country, even if there's also a totally benign context for each. I think it's fair to say each leaves itself open to be hijacked for political purposes. It's almost a Catch 22. By arguing that neither is political, you make each political. I hope the FAI just takes this on the chin, and our media. I want the FA to make a holy show of themselves. It's been quite gratifying to see several UK broadsheets arguing that football has lost the run of itself over the poppy. A guy in the Guardian wrote that as soon as the poppy becomes de facto compulsory it loses its intended symbolism, specifically citing James McClean.

[BonnieShels]

I watched Sky News yesterday as Damian Collins "ratted" the FAI out. They are comparable, but as TC says we have to put up with this poppycock every year; our celebration of failure was a once-off.

Roll on 2022...

I hope the FAI though as you say, take it on the chin and just go "oops". Watching Theresa May getting worked up about this in the Commons was the most unbelievable thing when you consider the absolute state of the country she is in charge of at present both politically and economically.

"Let's stir the masses against this perfidious foreign denial of our rights as Britons to wear the Poppy with pride. And let's all ignore the sh1it-show that I haven't a clue what I'm doing with, that is Brexit."


Squirming establishment Brits are my favourite. Watching the HC judgement filter through yesterday was the best. Let it continue.

[geysir]

Fifa first have to establish if there is a prima facie case for the FAI to answer. The BBC have already leapt over 4 hurdles and found the FAI guilty.

That law just refers to the players 'equipment'.
I'd presume there were other ways to commemorate the 1916 rising which are not legislated against.
Couldn't the Garda band have paraded around pre match, throwing shapes under a Nuremberg like mass of tricolour flags, playing a rousing medley of A Nation Once Again, The Boys of the Old Brigade, finishing off with the Wolf Tones' You'll Never Beat the Irish?

[geysir]

I see the Easter Rising is 'trending' heavy on the world's media, knocking this poppy nonsense off it's perch.

[Lionel Ritchie]

This was a 100 year event the poppy thing is every year.

It was a 100 year event completely unrelated to football. I take your point on the poppy thing. It's gotten way out of hand and now we (the grand 'we' ...the FAI) have just facilitated it getting worse.

[BonnieShels]

It was a 100 year event completely unrelated to football. I take your point on the poppy thing. It's gotten way out of hand and now we (the grand 'we' ...the FAI) have just facilitated it getting worse.

We didn't. This happened in March and no one gave a shoite. Including the Brittainishers when the game was shown on one of their TV stations. Not an eyelid was batted. Nada. Now all of a sudden they are getting into their annual bombastic huff.

Screw them.

How you can say we "facilitated them" I just don't know.

[The Fly]

Do the same rules apply to friendlies?

[backstothewall]

Do the same rules apply to friendlies?

I don't see how they can. The England v Scotland game very obviously falls under FIFA jurisdiction as a World Cup qualifier. Our game was a friendly. If FIFA have jurisdiction there why don't they have jurisdiction over Everton v West Ham.

This also is supposedly in the laws of the game in the same section that mandates shinguards etc. That's up to the referee to enforce on the day, and those same laws specifically prohibit retroactive punishment.

I don't see how we can be punished.

[DeLorean]

I could have sworn I read about the FAI getting some clearance for the 1916 logo at the time.

Good opportunity for FIFA to fine us €5m to even things up :)

[osarusan]

If I'm to be critical of the FA over their poppy stance I think I'd have to also side with FIFA over this.
Seconded. I doubt FIFA had the Easter Rising in mind when they came up with this rule, but if they are to be consistent, it applies here also.

[backstothewall]

I'm inclined to think that if Argentina put out a shirt with an outline of the country embossed into the fabric that included the Falkland/Malvinas Isles, that the Brits would lose their minds.

[IsMiseSean]

I could have sworn I read about the FAI getting some clearance for the 1916 logo at the time.


I can remember the FAI saying they got permission for the two friendlies but couldn't have it for the Euros.

[paul_oshea]

Go for it!!

Los Malvinas son Argentines

[Lionel Ritchie]

We didn't. This happened in March and no one gave a shoite. Including the Brittainishers when the game was shown on one of their TV stations. Not an eyelid was batted. Nada. Now all of a sudden they are getting into their annual bombastic huff.

Screw them.

How you can say we "facilitated them" I just don't know.

We facilitated them because we've gone and created precedent for them to reference. Now they want to ramp up and show just how respectful and rememberency they are in 2016 -in a fixture they played in 1999 on the same weekend against the same opposition in the same competition and there was no mention of poppys or any other form of commemoration. I doubt the lads in sky sports studio were wearing poppies back then. They want sauce for the goose is all ...and having seen us get away with a breach of the letter and spirit of the rules I can scarcely even blame them. It's a good rule there to prevent exactly this kind of silly-buggers.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I can remember the FAI saying they got permission for the two friendlies but couldn't have it for the Euros.

I hope they have that in writing from someone who isn't John Delaney ...or an imaginary friend of John Delaney.

[DeLorean]

I can remember the FAI saying they got permission for the two friendlies but couldn't have it for the Euros.

So what's the problem? They got permission off the wrong governing body maybe? It looks to me like they tried to do everything above board and if UEFA gave them permission then maybe they're the ones FIFA need to slap down. There's no way the FAI should just take it on the chin if that's the case.

[IsMiseSean]

I'm inclined to think that if Argentina put out a shirt with an outline of the country embossed into the fabric that included the Falkland/Malvinas Isles, that the Brits would lose their minds.

They're already bringing that up.
Daily Mail Outraged (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3905624/Outrage-paltry-fine-handed-Argentina-team-s-Malvinas-flag-England-face-points-deduction-non-political-poppy-display.html)

Scroll to the bottom to see some Rugby team's specially designed jersey :D

[IsMiseSean]

So what's the problem? They got permission off the wrong governing body maybe? It looks to me like they tried to do everything above board and if UEFA gave them permission then maybe they're the ones FIFA need to slap down. There's no way the FAI should just take it on the chin if that's the case.

I've been looking for a quote but can't find much. A few articles mention the FAI have been granted permission but it doesn't say from who.
Did the FAI need to get permission from the government to use the 1916 logo on the shirt too?

[DeLorean]

Me too. It's borderline impossible now because most logical searches just throw up the developments over the past 24 hours. I did find this (http://www.sundayworld.com/sport/soccer/ireland-may-be-kicked-out-of-euro-2016-over-1916-jersey-row) but it's more like a Waterford Whisperers News article rather than something in a newspaper. I guess the date of the article has a lot to do with that but they did mention UEFA regarding the clearance, whether that's based on fact or fiction I don't know.


Uefa had given Ireland the all-clear to wear the one-off badge but it seems some Swiss officials at the game raised the matter with Uefa in recent days as they felt it broke the regulations regarding ‘political messages’ in the game.

[osarusan]

Me too. It's borderline impossible now because most logical searches just throw up the developments over the past 24 hours. I did find this (http://www.sundayworld.com/sport/soccer/ireland-may-be-kicked-out-of-euro-2016-over-1916-jersey-row) but it's more like a Waterford Whisperers News article rather than something in a newspaper. I guess the date of the article has a lot to do with that but they did mention UEFA regarding the clearance, whether that's based on fact or fiction I don't know.

Classic Sunday World headline.

I did my own searching and found some articles about the FAI in negotiations with the Irish government, but not FIFA - it read like FIFA's approval was only needed for competitive games, but I don't know what the story is there.

[DeLorean]

Did the FAI need to get permission from the government to use the 1916 logo on the shirt too?

A little bit about that here. (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/will-this-commemorative-1916-design-be-worn-by-ireland-for-forthcoming-friendlies-34471665.html)

[sparky12345678]

England were able to put it on armbands before in a friendly. I thought this was more a problem cos its not a friendly. the Ireland was a friendly though so therein lies the distinction.

[geysir]

All official A level friendlies fall under Fifa's jurisdiction.
There is no charge yet, I wouldn't sweat over it. The UK press furore and faux outrage over Fifa's position on the poppy is just magnifying the enormity of the FAI's alleged crime by a factor of a thousand. You'd think the FAI had burned an effigy of Infantino in the centre circle.
Even if found guilty, the FAI at worst would just have to pay a petty cash fine.

[Fixer82]

I was sure that the friendlies were under jurisdiction of the FAI and that qualifiers were under the jurisdiction of FIFA, making the issue of the Easter Rising commemoration nothing to do with FIFA.

Here is a debate I took part in yesterday on BBC World Service about the poppy jersey debate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04d8k19

[geysir]

I was sure that the friendlies were under jurisdiction of the FAI and that qualifiers were under the jurisdiction of FIFA, making the issue of the Easter Rising commemoration nothing to do with FIFA.

Here is a debate I took part in yesterday on BBC World Service about the poppy jersey debate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04d8k19


FIFA statute 70
The Council shall compile an international match calendar that shall be binding
upon the confederations, member associations and leagues, after conferring
with the confederations.

Statute 71.
International matches and competitions


1. The Council shall be responsible for issuing regulations for organising international matches and competitions between representative teams and between leagues, club and/or scratch teams. No such match or competition shall take place without the prior permission of FIFA, the confederations and/ or the member associations in accordance with the Regulations Governing International Matches.


2.
The Council may issue further provisions for such matches and competitions.


3
The Council shall determine any criteria for authorising line-ups that are not covered by the Regulations Governing International Matches.


4.
Notwithstanding the authorisation competences as set forth in the Regulations Governing International Matches, FIFA may take the final decision on the authorisation of any international match or competition.

[BonnieShels]

I was sure that the friendlies were under jurisdiction of the FAI and that qualifiers were under the jurisdiction of FIFA, making the issue of the Easter Rising commemoration nothing to do with FIFA.

Here is a debate I took part in yesterday on BBC World Service about the poppy jersey debate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04d8k19

There's nothing like referring to Londonderry in relation to McClean to completely ruin your point. [First Caller]

"It's a tradition like going to your mother's for Sunday dinner." Sap. [Second Caller]

Ah there ya are. [Third Caller]

He redeemed himself. [First Caller]

---

Spoke well. Well done.

[backstothewall]

It's a sensible rule designed to keep a lid on a can of worms. The reaction to the poppy thing is moderate enough in comparison to what else is potentially out there.

If this is allowed it is inevitable that Armenia will want to put a Forget-Me-Not on their shirt for the April matches to mark the genocide there, at which point Turkey will freak. The Balkans are very tricky as well

Why would football want to put itself through that?

[tricky_colour]

It was a 100 year event completely unrelated to football. I take your point on the poppy thing. It's gotten way out of hand and now we (the grand 'we' ...the FAI) have just facilitated it getting worse.

Poppy day is not related to football either, I guess the FAI can take a small fine and do the same thing in 2116. it is a bigger issue for the English FA.

How long before the German team are turning out in Nazi armbands?

[Diggs246]

If the USA team all got Donald Trump hair cuts, would FIFA allow that!

[Lionel Ritchie]

Poppy day is not related to football either, I guess the FAI can take a small fine and do the same thing in 2116. it is a bigger issue for the English FA.

How long before the German team are turning out in Nazi armbands?

I agree Poppy day isn't related to football and made the point in previous that as recently as 1999 the English and Scots playing out the exact same fixture in November didn't think so either.

I'd like to know is there a scale or schedule of punishments that FIFA could seek to put on us because what I initially thought might be a small fine might turn out to be something more substantial if they decide to make an example of us so as to deter others.

Whatever about German teams and Nazi armbands -How long before Russia decide to put, I dunno, a blank headstone motif on their shirts? -which they'll say is merely decorative and has nothing to do with commemorating the unmarked graves of anyones comrades who were killed while getting up to allsorts in Eastern Ukraine this last while?

It's a good rule. We broke it.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Actually just as a measure of how absurd this is getting I earlier read a comment in the indo by someone giving out about FIFA sanctioning UNICEF awareness and charity fixtures and then daring not allow us stick 1916 stuff on our togs.

Yeah -way to stick it to those malnourished, homeless, bombed out kids. If we can't beat our chests to express our pride at events we actually had nothing to do with -well then screw them.

[geysir]

The big irony is that the laws around player dress code were formulated by the 4 UK associations, acting as FIFA's lawmakers.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I tend to blame John Delaney for everything. Certainly for everything that's wrong with the FAI and most definitely for this fiasco. Then RTE go and dig up his predecessor Fran Rooney for his tuppenceworth and he says FIFA have to get with the times. How do we end up with this class of gombeen running the whole show? Surely in their roles they've done a bit of travel, met a few counterparts and maybe learned exactly why it's better to find a formula that unites rather than emphasises difference.

[geysir]

I tend to blame John Delaney for everything. Certainly for everything that's wrong with the FAI and most definitely for this fiasco. Then RTE go and dig up his predecessor Fran Rooney for his tuppenceworth and he says FIFA have to get with the times. How do we end up with this class of gombeen running the whole show? Surely in their roles they've done a bit of travel, met a few counterparts and maybe learned exactly why it's better to find a formula that unites rather than emphasises difference.
What fiasco?
get a grip on reality.

[Stuttgart88]

I watched Sky News yesterday as Damian Collins "ratted" the FAI out. They are comparable, but as TC says we have to put up with this poppycock every year; our celebration of failure was a once-off.

Roll on 2022...

I hope the FAI though as you say, take it on the chin and just go "oops". Watching Theresa May getting worked up about this in the Commons was the most unbelievable thing when you consider the absolute state of the country she is in charge of at present both politically and economically.

"Let's stir the masses against this perfidious foreign denial of our rights as Britons to wear the Poppy with pride. And let's all ignore the sh1it-show that I haven't a clue what I'm doing with, that is Brexit."


Squirming establishment Brits are my favourite. Watching the HC judgement filter through yesterday was the best. Let it continue.my kids' Irish passports arrived today. Nothing like a surge towards fascism to motivate me to stop prevaricating.

[Stuttgart88]

Poppy day is not related to football either, I guess the FAI can take a small fine and do the same thing in 2116. it is a bigger issue for the English FA.

How long before the German team are turning out in Nazi armbands?i reckon England will beat them to it.

[Lionel Ritchie]

What fiasco?
get a grip on reality.

Fair enough. Perhaps today fiasco is a strong word when FIFA are supposedly only looking into it. Soon enough it might not be if FIFA decide this merits something stronger than the five figure fines they've recently doled out to Iran, Kosovo and Croatia. I readily accept that before this week FIFA didn't appear to have given a monkeys about it. But now that it's been highlighted and others are seeking to cite it as precedent for their displays (England & Scotland) while political pressure has been created and placed upon the IFA to follow suit -FIFA might just decide to make an example of us to nip this thing in the bud.

[tetsujin1979]

Dug out the program for that game, strangely it had no mention of the emblem. Checked through the FAI's twitter and instagram accounts, no mention there either. Entirely possible they've all been deleted.

[BonnieShels]

my kids' Irish passports arrived today. Nothing like a surge towards fascism to motivate me to stop prevaricating.

The daughter passes the gut test so? :)

The wee fella was never a doubt.

[bennocelt]

Any reason why the IFA are not getting involved in this? Just curious

[bennocelt]

I was sure that the friendlies were under jurisdiction of the FAI and that qualifiers were under the jurisdiction of FIFA, making the issue of the Easter Rising commemoration nothing to do with FIFA.

Here is a debate I took part in yesterday on BBC World Service about the poppy jersey debate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04d8k19

Excellent, well argued.....good stuff:D

[Lionel Ritchie]

Any reason why the IFA are not getting involved in this? Just curious

I would say the IFA are trying their best NOT to get involved in this. But they now have the bould Nelson McCausland demanding the Northern Ireland team wear poppies as well ...another sauce for the goose argument. It's not like the IFA have to jump at Nelsons behest but it does create pressure and leads to more people joining his cause and indulging their victimhood when the IFA try to explain it's really not a great idea.

[geysir]

Our case is a minor matter in the scheme of things.
I'd say that the FA and SFA will be in much thicker soup if they carry on with their intention to openly defy a public Fifa warning to desist from their path of open dissent.

[Gather round]

Any reason why the IFA are not getting involved in this? Just curious

1 Unlike in England, Scotland, Wales or the Republic, we can hardly pretend that a poppy or lily symbol has close to 100% support

2 Given the fuss started by those needy Paralympians before the San Marino game, it makes sense to keep a low profile

3 It's more dignified anyway


PS if the punishment becomes more severe for open defiance as Geysir suggests, then here's a possible rejigged table:

Lithuania 2-4
---------------
Slovenia 2-4
---------------
Slovakia 1-0
Malta 1-0
---------------
(Scotland DQ)
(England DQ)

[geysir]

Any reason why the IFA are not getting involved in this? Just curious
Contrary to earlier disinformation the IFA did get involved (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/poll-ifa-asks-fifa-if-northern-ireland-team-can-wear-poppy-but-is-it-a-political-symbol-35180649.html)

The Irish FA has written to football's world governing body Fifa to clarify whether Northern Ireland players can wear poppies on their shirts next week in a crucial match.
Officials made the request ahead of the World Cup qualifier against Azerbaijan next Friday, which is Armistice Day.

However, 52% of BT readers agree that the poppy IS a political symbol and 55% agree that the players should NOT wear the poppy.

Amongst many other aspects but when NI politicians get involved in the public criticism of players who choose not to wear the poppy, it becomes a political issue.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Contrary to earlier disinformation the IFA did get involved (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/poll-ifa-asks-fifa-if-northern-ireland-team-can-wear-poppy-but-is-it-a-political-symbol-35180649.html).

Happy to be corrected. Hadn't kept up with developments up there. I'm kind of surprised at them to be honest. But at least they're asking rather than demanding I suppose.