pope debate [Archive]

Plastic Paddy

02/02/2005, 9:53 PM

That's harsh-he's been called by God and is respected by millions of Catholics world wide; he's done us a brilliant service and I'm honoured even to share the same lifetime as him.....I say God Bless him

Harsh? Harsh?!? I'll give you harsh, Liam. What about the millions of African Catholics now dying of AIDS because of his refusal to budge on the contraception issue? And what about his refusal to issue an apology to Jews over Catholic collusion with Nazis in wartime Croatia and other parts of eastern Europe? Never mind the continual wealth- and empire-building the Church engages in at the expense of feeding the poor and fighting for social justice. I could go on.

On a human level, I too wish him all the best for a speedy recovery. But don't go talking of "brilliant service". He's managed to keep the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages and in doing so deny God's compassion to millions. "The greatest priest of all". Indeed. :rolleyes:

:ball: PP

Éanna

02/02/2005, 10:02 PM

liam88

02/02/2005, 10:07 PM

Harsh? Harsh?!? I'll give you harsh, Liam. What about the millions of African Catholics now dying of AIDS because of his refusal to budge on the contraception issue?

The Pope preches abstiance until marriage. He also preaches against contraception.
If they followed his teaching on both then it would not be an issue. If they followed his teachings on neither he would be expempt of any blame.

There is no WAY you can pin the AIDS crisis on the Pope because if they poor sufferers only listen to half of his teaching then how is he to blame!

There are also thousdands of evangelical Christians and Muslims in Africa-it is not under control of our Pope.

It's a sad misconception to pin this on the Pope.........go on then "give me harsh"; i thought you were one to respect others opinions without coming out with comments like the "dark ages".

finlma

02/02/2005, 10:15 PM

The Pope preches abstiance until marriage. He also preaches against contraception.

Come on Liam - who is going to subscribe to abstinance in this day and age. Its a very rare and un-natural thing.

liam88

02/02/2005, 10:18 PM

Come on Liam - who is going to subscribe to abstinance in this day and age. Its a very rare and un-natural thing.
Abstinace before marriage is somethign many Catholcis do subscribe to.
The point I was trying to make was that if they are prepared to listen to the Pope on contraception and follow him 100% by never using a condom even when AIDS is rife why do they not listen to him on contraception....
There are holes all over that argument and piled on top is some off the wall theory about Catholcis being in conclusion with the Nazis to massacre Jews. Look I'm not going to change my stance, and I personally find those kind of allegation against my faith and my Pope offensive.....Ive had enough anti-Catholic cr*p growing up why do I need more now especially from someone I got on weel with like PP?

finlma

02/02/2005, 10:24 PM

90% of my friends are Catholic as am I (by birth only). I don't know a single person that has subsribed to abstinance.

I think Catholicism is a bit of a joke and the way the pope is revered as a Godly figure is beyond me.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs but I don't need JP telling me how to lead my life.

Try Buddhism out for size. I'm hoping to come back as an eagle myself.

Éanna

02/02/2005, 10:25 PM

The Pope preches abstiance until marriage. He also preaches against contraception.
If they followed his teaching on both then it would not be an issue. If they followed his teachings on neither he would be expempt of any blame.

absolute and utter bolloks. what about a woman who is a good catholic, who marries her husband and then catches aids from him because she won't wear a condom? Is that her fault? And then its passed on to her kids? is it their fault? We've been thru all this before, but the simple fact is that this man and the organisation he leads are living in the dark ages, and not just on this issue either.

There are also thousdands of evangelical Christians and Muslims in Africa-it is not under control of our Pope.

your pope. not our pope

Abstinace before marriage is somethign many Catholcis do subscribe to.
its something many people subscribe to for various reasons. it should be a personal choice, not a matter of being told what to do by people who have no idea what they're talking about.

some off the wall theory about Catholcis being in conclusion with the Nazis to massacre Jews.
thats not an off-the-wall theory. its a fact. read some history books. its there for everyone to see.

Ive had enough anti-Catholic cr*p its not anti-catholic at all. Its people expressing valid opinions on a matter that (unfortunately) affects most of us to varying degrees. You are adopting the same attitude as the bush administration- "with us or against us" I'm not anti-Catholic. I respect people's right to their beliefs, whether I agree or disagree with them. I just wish that the same people would respect my right to disagree with them, and with aspects of their beliefs without getting hysterical and labelling me.

liam88

02/02/2005, 10:29 PM

absolute and utter bolloks. what about a woman who is a good catholic, who marries her husband and then catches aids from him because she won't wear a condom? Is that her fault? And then its passed on to her kids? is it their fault? We've been thru all this before, but the simple fact is that this man and the organisation he leads are living in the dark ages, and not just on this issue either.

your pope. not our pope

Our as in mine an ma fellow Catholics!
No of course it's not her fault, yes AIDS is a horrible thing but it's naive, closed minded and shallow to blame it all on OUR Pope.

Like I said I'm not going to argue this out because I'm not going to budge, you guys arn't going to budge and I'm just getting offended by these comments.
If people I've known and respected like PP want to fall out over this by making agressive comments then fine (of course the lives of people in Africa are more important than our friendship)-sorry if I'm going over the top on any of this but I've had a relally bad day and probably a worse evening....I'm going to leave it at that.

Éanna

02/02/2005, 10:32 PM

No of course it's not her fault, yes AIDS is a horrible thing but it's naive, closed minded and shallow to blame it all on OUR Pope.
.
right. so she doesn't use a condom because the Church said not to. The pope is head of the church. How is it NOT his fault?

Like I said I'm not going to argue this out because I'm not going to budge, you guys arn't going to budge and I'm just getting offended by these comments.
because its indefensible. thats why. saying you're getting offended is a cop-out.

If people I've known and respected like PP want to fall out over this by making agressive comments then fine (of course the lives of people in Africa are more important than our friendship)-
they are not agressive comments. they're valid questions. again, a cop-out.

Éanna

02/02/2005, 10:35 PM

i've split the thread, as it was gone wildly off topic

Éanna

liam88

02/02/2005, 10:45 PM

right. so she doesn't use a condom because the Church said not to. The pope is head of the church. How is it NOT his fault?

because its indefensible. thats why. saying you're getting offended is a cop-out.

they are not agressive comments. they're valid questions. again, a cop-out.

For goodness sake-I'm notstanding my ground because it's 'indefensible' i'm not budging because it is my BELIEF. She doesn't have to have sex with him if she thinks he has AIDS/I WAS getting offended it wasn't a 'cop-out'/"Harsh? Harsh?!? I'll give you harsh, Liam." I regarded that as offensive coming from a man I hope I'm mates with.....you can come up with whatever reason you like for me leaving it a that.
Mabye the fact I've had a $hite day is a "cop-out" for you, mabye the fact I've had to stand up to racism and religious prejudice at school and don't want to have argue on matters like this here is a "cop-out"......honestly mate it's up to you but I'm not going to argue it anymore-call it what you will...

dancinpants

02/02/2005, 11:59 PM

Éanna

03/02/2005, 12:02 AM

I know he's not telling me what to do, but think of ireland 20/30/40 years ago. What the church said was law. In a lot of poorer countries that is still the case. People are afraid to go against the church. I've no problem with the Church having views in things, but they're so utterly vehement in their opinions, they only just stop short of telling people "condoms send you to hell" :rolleyes:

dancinpants

03/02/2005, 12:05 AM

Well could someone tell me what denomination claims that shagging rings around you is OK?

finlma

03/02/2005, 12:13 AM

Well could someone tell me what denomination claims that shagging rings around you is OK?

Eanna didn't say that any of them did. You're taking his argument, twisting it and coming up with a statement like that. And who shags rings anyway? Cue gay jokes :eek: .

Plastic Paddy

03/02/2005, 12:27 AM

The Pope preches abstiance until marriage. He also preaches against contraception. If they followed his teaching on both then it would not be an issue. If they followed his teachings on neither he would be expempt of any blame.

There is no WAY you can pin the AIDS crisis on the Pope because if they poor sufferers only listen to half of his teaching then how is he to blame!

With respect, Liam, that's the sort of self-righteousness that typifies the Church's approach to this issue. A dose of reality is required. And - dare I say this? - when you yourself have seen a little more of life, then maybe your views will moderate. I don't mean to appear patronising, I really don't, but I was as strident as you at the same age and (often bitter) experience has taught me that the Church's teachings are on occasion way off the mark.

It's a sad misconception to pin this on the Pope.........go on then "give me harsh"; i thought you were one to respect others opinions without coming out with comments like the "dark ages".

The first rule of debate is NEVER take comments made by others personally. Unfortunately, that's exactly what you appear to have done. Look, let's get this straight. Despite your incorrect inference from my post, I'm not anti-Catholic (and nor was my comment "crap", but that's by the by). I am Catholic, and indeed very proud to be so. I just find it very hard to reconcile the notion of a compassionate God with a Church that dehumanises the suffering of millions in the way it has.

I'm sorry that my strong response seems to have caused you particular offence, as that honestly wasn't the intention. But please be clear on one thing. I have the absolute right to challenge you on anything about which I hold different views, just as you do with mine. Sometimes that entails the use of emotive language. But it is not, I repeat NOT, a personal attack on you.

FWIW, If I think you're a c**t, I'll call you a c**t. I don't, so I didn't. Friends now? :)

:ball: PP

Green Tribe

03/02/2005, 3:17 AM

Plastic Paddy

03/02/2005, 5:31 AM

There are holes all over that argument and piled on top is some off the wall theory about Catholcis being in conclusion with the Nazis to massacre Jews.

I've only just spotted this and feel that I deserve the right of reply.

Firstly, I wasn't suggesting that the Church change its views on contraception (even though I personally view those as an outdated means of social control), but that the Church should view with compassion those "weak" enough to succumb to "sins of the flesh". As Eanna made quite plain in the example he used, plenty of married women have contracted HIV and AIDS without ever venturing outwith the Holy Sacraments to consummate relationships. They were just supremely unlucky that they married men who did. By its stance, the Church damned those poor women too.

Secondly - and I'm swallowing hard as I write this - Liam, has the sixtieth Holocaust Memorial Week passed you by? Do you not know the story of Pope Pius XII's refusal to condemn the slaughter of MILLIONS of Jews both at the time and after the event? For every St Maximillian Kolbe (and the thousands of other individual Catholic acts of martyrdom and sainthood) was the refusal - not failure, refusal - of an established and venerated religious institution to defend the weak and the vulnerable. Just like we've seen under the present Pope and the situation with AIDS in Africa.

So, please, don't ever try the "off the wall" line again without first appraising the whole range of facts and views available to you. My arguments are founded in accepted fact, not emotional hyperbole. Please do me the courtesy of remembering that in future. Just think how upset you'd be if I panned one of your views in the same tone. We're still friends, I hope. I just object to your rank dismissal of my views in such a fashion and as you can see I'm not afraid to tell you so.

:ball: PP

fosterdollar

03/02/2005, 8:47 AM

absolute and utter bolloks. what about a woman who is a good catholic, who marries her husband and then catches aids from him because she won't wear a condom?

There's very few people who are going to insist their partners wear condoms after they are married. In all fairness, putting heavy blame on the pope for the AIDS epidemic is all too easy. I would imagine it has far far far more to do with traditions, culture, miseducation, lack of education and so on. Someone mentioned earlier about the possibility of blaming one's over zealous parents for their distaste for the Catholic Church. I think this is a good place to start. We all have our own minds and can make our own decisions from the age of reason onwards. This applies to Africans as well.

What really gets me going on this issue is the African men who are recklessly taking the life from their communities by taking multiple sexual partners when I cannot believe that they don't in some way know what the consequences of their exploits are.

Lionel Ritchie

03/02/2005, 9:29 AM

C'mere a minute - the pope isn't TELLING youse what and what not to do. I'm a Catholic and he's never told me a single thing!!!. Take what the church teaches as "suggestions" and you all mightn't feel so hard done by!!. Maybe its uptight parents (that beat youse up the road to mass every sunday mornin') that youse should be blaming and not the Catholic church. BTW theres whackier and more old fashioned religions out there!!!.

Without wanting to ahem Bare false witness I believe I'm substantially right in stating JPII (get well soon btw Karl ...you too were someones baby once like the rest of us) has threatened with excommunication members of his own clergy who don't spend enough time telling his "flock" how they are expected to behave on any number of matters. He has taken quite an interest in telling Catholics (and non-Catholics for that matter) what and what not to do.

He has canonised murderers and psycopaths. (though the encouragment of obscene behaviour is nothing new here. He's just continuing a grand old tradition that is so obsessed with the evil of sex that it canonises girls who embrace death rather than live through a sexual assault.) No fear they might canonise someone who wasn't so scared sh1tless of what the local clergy, family etc might say that she plucked up the courage to live through it, get the cops and face the cowardly rapist scum across a courtroom. Fat chance.

"Death Rather Than Sin" is the motto of one such misfortune. The pope canonised another one in 1998 who we are told (despite a complete absence of eye witnesses) was strangled by a soldier because she wouldn't "surrender her purity". On that great day for women everywhere JP had this to say ..."What a message of hope for those who are striving to run counter to the spirit of the world! To young people in particular, I hold up this young woman whom the Church is proclaiming blessed today so that they may learn form her clear faith, witnessed to in daily commitment, moral consistency without compromises and the courage of sacrificing even life if necessary, in order not to betray the values that give it meaning."

If I were the parent, relative or friend of a sexual assault victim -and was faced with that little tirade from JP-I'd want to rip his head off and sh1t down his neck.

green goblin

03/02/2005, 9:33 AM

Here we go again... :o
You know, the Old testament is actually full of this kind of thing. The Books of Judges, and Kings are full of times where God calls someone to a task, and that person then makes an utter hash of it, it all ends in tears and bodies piled high in the street, and so God has to try again.
The church is run by fallible, corruptible, weak people. Just as, I dunno, the railways are, or goverments are, or football teams are. The church is no more run by moral superheroes than Bord na Móna is.
As an Anglican, I have an equally difficult job in expressing my faith inside a church that has in the past endorsed slavery, propped up the monarchy, and amassed great wealth for itself. Every time I visit a Cathedral and see battle honours on the wall from regiments of the British Army that fell while looting Africa, India or China, I am reminded of Jesus' words in the temple: "You have made my house a den of thieves".
And that, in essence, is what it's all about. It should be about Jesus. It shouldn't be about churches or bishops or priests. They're just things that are supposed to help you hear God's voice. If they get in the way of doing that... Well, then frankly they're in the way.
I hope JPII makes a full recovery, and along with many many non-Catholics throughout the world pray for him, and for his replacement, whoever that might be, waiting in the wings.

pete

03/02/2005, 9:40 AM

Keep it on topic folks...theres a Catholic church bashing thread around the corner...

The Pope definitely should "retire" as can't see the purpose to his suffering. Unfortunately given the Vatican politics theres only going to a more conservative replacement. (can get odds at most bookies)

eoinh

03/02/2005, 9:47 AM

Our as in mine an ma fellow Catholics!

You mean Roman Catholics i presume. Many Catholic faiths do not see the pope as their leader.

green goblin

03/02/2005, 9:57 AM

The Pope definitely should "retire" as can't see the purpose to his suffering. Unfortunately given the Vatican politics theres only going to a more conservative replacement. (can get odds at most bookies)

Sadly I think you're right. JPII being the first non-Italian for goodness knows how long, guarentees his replacement being Italian, pretty much. Thing is, he's stirred up so much trouble during his time that they'll also want a don't-rock-the-boat conservative. Remember, the Vatican thinks in centuries, not years. Trouble is that some Italian front runners of late have been either too liberal, too outspoken, or politically too awkward. For a real hardline conservative they'd have to look to Africa, and interesting through it'd be, I'm not sure they're ready for that leap just yet.
They'll go for as safe a bet as they can. Mind you, they said that when JPI died after such a short, yet promising time, and look who they ended up with...

corkharps

03/02/2005, 10:04 AM

Does all this mean ,he'll never keep goal again? :ball:

green goblin

03/02/2005, 10:07 AM

Does all this mean ,he'll never keep goal again? :ball:
Tragedy. You know he was assistamt groundsman at Fulham as a student, too?

drinkfeckarse

03/02/2005, 10:38 AM

what about a woman who is a good catholic, who marries her husband and then catches aids from him because she won't wear a condom?

I'd be worried as a husband myself if my "wife" wanted to wear a condom... :eek:

Plastic Paddy

03/02/2005, 10:42 AM

Tragedy. You know he was assistamt groundsman at Fulham as a student, too?

It makes sense. After all, Craven Cottage is built on one corner of Bishops Park... :D

:D PP

SÓC

03/02/2005, 10:49 AM

Éanna comes up with one case where if a woman who married a man with aids catches it. Why do the Catholic Church now INSIST that people who get married in their Church do a pre-maritial course? The course involves such things as full disclosure to each other, talking about previous relationships, even the cermony in the Church involves certain oaths before God about the basis for the relationship. The Church does not people who do not know every relevant detail about each other to get married.

Now if this woman who got married to her husband without knowing that he had had previous sexual relationships how in the name of all that is good is that the Pope's fault? Its the Popes fault that she married someone who did not explain themselves?:rolleyes:

If he does tell her then she can make up her own mind whether she is happy to still have a sexual relationship and then (only THEN) does your point have any validity, even then the Church's teachings warn her strong against it.

Then if (sadly) she does catch AIDS who runs the hospital who treats her? Who funds the programs for medicine? Who put pressure on various Government (especially the US) to allow patents to be putaside for life saving AIDS durgs in the poor countries of the world. One particular AIDS drug which is patented by a US company would cost in the region of $1200 per month to treat a paitent. The Catholic Church (who work on the ground in some of the worst affected parts) were one of the main pressure groups involved in allowing the patent to be put aside. Now in the poor countries of the world the same AIDS drug can be bought for a tiny fraction of the price from India

Lionel Ritchie

03/02/2005, 11:21 AM

Then if (sadly) she does catch AIDS who runs the hospital who treats her? Who funds the programs for medicine? Who put pressure on various Government (especially the US) to allow patents to be putaside for life saving AIDS durgs in the poor countries of the world. One particular AIDS drug which is patented by a US company would cost in the region of $1200 per month to treat a paitent. The Catholic Church (who work on the ground in some of the worst affected parts) were one of the main pressure groups involved in allowing the patent to be put aside. Now in the poor countries of the world the same AIDS drug can be bought for a tiny fraction of the price from India

Kudos to them on that but ...Who puts pressure on many various Goverments to restrict access to contraception? Who opposes non-faith based sex education for pubescents, teens AND adults at virtually every turn?
Who encourages poorly educated youths from Africa and Central/South America to "breed" for the church -when these kids can barely feed themselves?

...and just on the likelyhood of his successor being any better -he has stacked the house of cardinals with conservtives of his own mind.

eoinh

03/02/2005, 11:27 AM

Plastic Paddy

03/02/2005, 11:28 AM

Would those of you that defend the Church's view on sexual intercourse please tell me how the following, very current, news story can be justified? Someone? Anyone? :confused:

:mad: PP

---

http://www.sundayherald.com/47293

Church blocks sex education

By Paul Hutcheon, Scottish Political Editor, Sunday Herald. 23 Jan 2005.

THE Catholic Church last night claimed victory in the ongoing row over sexual health education in schools after insisting that headteachers would be able to block family planning workers from entering classrooms.

A spokesman for the Church said he was “relaxed” about a strategy that would not force faith schools to do anything contrary to their ethos.

He said the long-delayed policy, which is to be unveiled this week by health minister Andy Kerr, will be rendered meaningless because it will not be legally binding.

“ Headteachers can’t be compelled to allow anyone into the schools. I’m not sure the strategy will be anything more than a national template,” he said.

The climbdown will be interpreted as a defeat for liberals who had argued for pupils having an equal right of access to sexual health services.

Last week, the Sunday Herald revealed that the Liberal Democrats refused to sign up to the strategy because Labour ministers were offering concessions to the Catholic Church.

This led to Executive ministers and special advisers making last-minute amendments the following day to prevent a rebellion from the LibDems, who eventually signed up to the strategy on Tuesday.

But the bizarre episode ended with the First Minister confirming on Thursday that rights of headteachers would override the needs of children in the sexual health strategy.

The policy is intended to address Scotland’s poor record on unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases.

According to Health Protection Scotland, Scotland is one of the STD hotspots of Europe.

Macy

03/02/2005, 11:42 AM

Ive done a pre-marraige course and disclosure was not mentioned,hinted at etc.
And I got married last year and doing a pre-marriage course was not mentioned, hinted at etc. And the priest was a traditionalist at that (luckily he'd fooked off 2 weeks before the wedding).

SÓC

03/02/2005, 12:31 PM

Would those of you that defend the Church's view on sexual intercourse please tell me how the following, very current, news story can be justified? Someone? Anyone? :confused:

Justified? Well I dont agree with their motivies but then again would you allow someone into your house to preach to your children about something you did not believe in, something you were very much opposed to infact?

In public non-religious schools Governments should do what they want, teach what they deem fit.

In school runs by the Churches etc (a service which they provide for free btw) they should be allowed maintain control over what goes on.

Lionel Ritchie

03/02/2005, 1:12 PM

Justified? Well I dont agree with their motivies but then again would you allow someone into your house to preach to your children about something you did not believe in, something you were very much opposed to infact?

In public non-religious schools Governments should do what they want, teach what they deem fit.

In school runs by the Churches etc (a service which they provide for free btw) they should be allowed maintain control over what goes on.

not so SOC. first they rarely educate for free. vast vast vast majority either have straight up fees or slight of hand style "voluntary contributions" (which are of course compulsory, obligatory, insisted upon and therefore not voluntary).
Second -schools of any denomination have to teach a national curriculum . They are not allowed to cherry pick the bits they like and dislike to any great degree (beyond the usual neglect and mutilation of arts subjects in favour of science/business subjects that goes on in virtually all schools).
There is a very strong case to be made that anyone operating an institution for instructing young people should be obliged to run comprehensive personal health courses -including modules on sex education and relationships -with said courses designed at department of education level in conjunction with depts of health and Environment.

liam88

03/02/2005, 4:20 PM

ah, how sweet PP :D , are you and liam going to kiss and make-up? Hope you are ok liam, yes don't take it personally, for what it is worth, i too am offended by some of the comments(although i get what some of the things PP is talking about)However he is the only Pope ever to come to Ireland(as far as i know), none of those other bloody italian popes came, even though ireland was a staunch catholic country. He played a significant role in helping Poland out of Communism,he was very active and met so many prominent leaders, i think he has done a lot of good, compared to previous popes.
xx julie

Fair play to ya Julie!
Aye re. PP we're still mates :D
Wouldn't be much of a friend if we fell out over moral reasons.......
No PP Holocaust week didn't pass me by-I preyed for the victims and watched the services; I just don't think the past should be brought up in religous arguments when those who have taken the places i.e. Pope John Paul II have done their best to make ameds i.e. sending an envoy to the holocaust services, stating publicly that the Jews wer enot to be blames for Christs execution (the first Pope to do so).
I apologise to for any offence caused-I never meant it.

dortie

03/02/2005, 5:46 PM

Harsh? Harsh?!? I'll give you harsh, Liam. What about the millions of African Catholics now dying of AIDS because of his refusal to budge on the contraception issue? And what about his refusal to issue an apology to Jews over Catholic collusion with Nazis in wartime Croatia and other parts of eastern Europe? Never mind the continual wealth- and empire-building the Church engages in at the expense of feeding the poor and fighting for social justice. I could go on.

On a human level, I too wish him all the best for a speedy recovery. But don't go talking of "brilliant service". He's managed to keep the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages and in doing so deny God's compassion to millions. "The greatest priest of all". Indeed. :rolleyes:

:ball: PP

Thats right, blame the pope and the catholic church for the spread of Aids. How did the disease start off anyway, and indeed spread, it certainly wasnt due to catholic policy on sex !
You seem to be misguided on the 'riches and selfishness' of the church too !!! they dont have missions all over the world or raise millions on an annual basis for the poor do they ???
As for the Jews ? What in under feck are you on ? Catholics were also the target of the Nazis in Instances. Here why dont you condem the Jews of Israel for their torture and murder of the Palastinians while your at it. Or even Muslims for their role in the murder of Americans recently in New York.

Get off your Anti-Catholic high horse....Im no ultra catholic but I cant read such rubbish without a response.

finlma

03/02/2005, 7:04 PM

Now if this woman who got married to her husband without knowing that he had had previous sexual relationships how in the name of all that is good is that the Pope's fault? Its the Popes fault that she married someone who did not explain themselves?:rolleyes:

AIDS doesn't only come from sexual intercourse.

Who funds the programs for medicine?

Bob Geldoff

Who put pressure on various Government (especially the US) to allow patents to be putaside for life saving AIDS durgs in the poor countries of the world.

Bono

Jim Smith

03/02/2005, 7:46 PM

Well could someone tell me what denomination claims that shagging rings around you is OK?
You just have to look a bit harder :D
http://www.libchrist.com/

liam88

03/02/2005, 8:08 PM

Bono

Bono.....the great lad from U2 who is a dedicated Catholic and met the Pope to give him his respects as he admires him so much before presenting the Pope with his trademark sunglasses (which the Pope put on) and reieving his Rosary from the Pope which he wears and holds on to in U2's new video for 'Vertigo'?

Or another Bono?

Plastic Paddy

03/02/2005, 8:23 PM

Thats right, blame the pope and the catholic church for the spread of Aids. How did the disease start off anyway, and indeed spread, it certainly wasnt due to catholic policy on sex !
You seem to be misguided on the 'riches and selfishness' of the church too !!! they dont have missions all over the world or raise millions on an annual basis for the poor do they ???
As for the Jews ? What in under feck are you on ? Catholics were also the target of the Nazis in Instances. Here why dont you condem the Jews of Israel for their torture and murder of the Palastinians while your at it. Or even Muslims for their role in the murder of Americans recently in New York.

Get off your Anti-Catholic high horse....Im no ultra catholic but I cant read such rubbish without a response.

Now go back and read my posts properly this time. I AM A CATHOLIC! I just hold different views to you on the institution that is the Church and can substantiate each and every one of them.

Where is the Church's apology for its role in respect to Nazi Germany and other states in WWII? From Pius XII onwards, the world still waits. You can read my previous posts for the detail; something you obviously haven't done. :rolleyes:

On to your other point. What about the riches and selfishness of the Church? Who owns the largest collection of pictures by Renaissance masters in the world? The Vatican (and no, you can't just rock up and see them. All well hidden in bank vaults or private galleries, I'm afraid). Which institution's wealth is estimated by independent observers at over one trillion US$? The Catholic Church. Again, I could go on...

If you want to bury your head in the sand over the Church's misdemeanours and failings, that's up to you, but don't go dissing me because you can't face facts.

:ball: PP

liam88

03/02/2005, 8:32 PM

Where is the Church's apology for its role in respect to Nazi Germany and other states in WWII? From Pius XII onwards, the world still waits.

In the form of the Popes envoy to pay it's respects at Auschwitz on his behalf and his beatification of one murdered in Nazi death camps.
As I said in my previous posts our current Pope has also strengthened relations with the Jewish faith through stating publicly that they were not responsible for Christ's death; something that previous Pope's have not stated.

dancinpants

03/02/2005, 8:47 PM

Now go back and read my posts properly this time. I AM A CATHOLIC! I just hold different views to you on the institution that is the Church and can substantiate each and every one of them.

Where is the Church's apology for its role in respect to Nazi Germany and other states in WWII? From Pius XII onwards, the world still waits. You can read my previous posts for the detail; something you obviously haven't done. :rolleyes:

On to your other point. What about the riches and selfishness of the Church? Who owns the largest collection of pictures by Renaissance masters in the world? The Vatican (and no, you can't just rock up and see them. All well hidden in bank vaults or private galleries, I'm afraid). Which institution's wealth is estimated by independent observers at over one trillion US$? The Catholic Church. Again, I could go on...

If you want to bury your head in the sand over the Church's misdemeanours and failings, that's up to you, but don't go dissing me because you can't face facts.

:ball: PP

Polish Church apology over Holocaust,Polish cardinal apologises for church's sins,Pope apologises for church sins,Catholic order apologises publicly for abuse,Vatican apologises over holocaust,Pope sends first e-mail apology,Pope sorrow over Constantinople.

These are news headlines. they're easy to find. Go to bbc.co.uk, then in the search bar, type in "pope apologises", then click the Search BBC News tab, and voila, you get 4 pages with the afore mentioned headlines as links to the relevant stories.

pete

03/02/2005, 8:55 PM

You just have to look a bit harder :D
http://www.libchrist.com/

Jeez you found that a little bit too quick... ;)

Thought the IT survey the other week which said 87% of irish people belived in GOD was funny enough - no clarification on what type of GOD or anything...

Read somewhere recently that 35-40% of the Chech Republic are Atheists.

Éanna

03/02/2005, 9:00 PM

Read somewhere recently that 35-40% of the Chech Republic are Atheists.
i think you'll find that to be the case in many former communist countries

Plastic Paddy

04/02/2005, 5:05 AM

Polish Church apology over Holocaust,Polish cardinal apologises for church's sins,Pope apologises for church sins,Catholic order apologises publicly for abuse,Vatican apologises over holocaust,Pope sends first e-mail apology,Pope sorrow over Constantinople.

These are news headlines. they're easy to find. Go to bbc.co.uk, then in the search bar, type in "pope apologises", then click the Search BBC News tab, and voila, you get 4 pages with the afore mentioned headlines as links to the relevant stories.

Fair play. From your (very reliable) source, it turns out the Pope did indeed apologise for the Church's complaisance over the Holocaust as far back as 2000. Fifty-five years too late, but an apology nonetheless, and one delivered from the appropriate tier of authority.

For my part, I apologise to those of you for whom my statements and stance on this particular point has caused offence.

:ball: PP