pope debate

[liam88]

Fair play. From your (very reliable) source, it turns out the Pope did indeed apologise for the Church's complaisance over the Holocaust as far back as 2000. Fifty-five years too late, but an apology nonetheless, and one delivered from the appropriate tier of authority.

For my part, I apologise to those of you for whom my statements and stance on this particular point has caused offence.

:ball: PP

Fair play to you PAddy.......it's not quite the same but Blair apologising over the famine was too late but an apolegy none the less-it's the most anyone (including the Pope) could have done and he did it so fair play to John Paul II :D

[anto eile]

Abstinace before marriage is somethign many Catholcis do subscribe to.
The point I was trying to make was that if they are prepared to listen to the Pope on contraception and follow him 100% by never using a condom even when AIDS is rife why do they not listen to him on contraception....
There are holes all over that argument and piled on top is some off the wall theory about Catholcis being in conclusion with the Nazis to massacre Jews. Look I'm not going to change my stance, and I personally find those kind of allegation against my faith and my Pope offensive.....Ive had enough anti-Catholic cr*p growing up why do I need more now especially from someone I got on weel with like PP?

you say theres holes in that argument?try read the catholic bible and youl fins more holes in the "logic" than youd find in a football net. come on be realistic, unless you actually believe youre eating the flesh of a 2000year dead man when you et communion then youre not a true believer.all religion ins rubbish.propaganda to scare a majority of people into doing what an elite minority want.catholic church is a fascist organization.open your eyes you deluded fool

[liam88]

you say theres holes in that argument?try read the catholic bible and youl fins more holes in the "logic" than youd find in a football net. come on be realistic, unless you actually believe youre eating the flesh of a 2000year dead man when you et communion then youre not a true believer.all religion ins rubbish.propaganda to scare a majority of people into doing what an elite minority want.catholic church is a fascist organization.open your eyes you deluded fool
Even thoug your vaguely on the same side as PP I'm sure he will edit your post/give you a warning for your breaking of foot.ie's attack pos not poster rule-i.e. "deluded fool"-this deluded fool has good GCSE results and is the St. John Ambulance Cadet of the year for Surrey :rolleyes:
And I do believe I am eating the body of my Lord at Communion and am tus being forgiven for my sins; and I'm not a fascist :D
Any more issues ya got with me-don't really want to hear 'em!

[eoinh]

Personally I feel at this stage of his pontificate he has the ability to preach to Scottish Premier League supporters but for the more demanding catholic Eircom League supporters hes out of his depth :)

[Jim Smith]

Personally I feel at this stage of his pontificate he has the ability to preach to Scottish Premier League supporters but for the more demanding catholic Eircom League supporters hes out of his depth :)
So by that logic, as a supporter of a Scottish 2nd Division team, who will preach to me? I suppose I'll just have to stick to listening to the voices in my head :eek:

[dcfcsteve]

I'm a bit loathe to stoke this whole debate up again, but to be honest - the concept of blaiming the Pope and the Catholic Church for the spread of Aids in Africa has been bothering me.

Firstly, it's afact that cultural reasons are a greater prohibitor towards condom use in Africa than the preachings of a single Christian church. Two key isses here : firstly, it is well noted that there is a general cultural antagonism towards condom use amongst males in African society in general. This is a cultural issue - not a religious one. Secondly - amongst certain widespread animist sects within Africa it is believed that if an AIDS victim has sex with a virgin, they are actually cured of the disease (it's the same belief that lies behind Muti killings - i.e. that you can absorb someone else's purity for yourself). In reality, these 2 factors (in particular antipathy towards condoms in general) have to-date had a greater impact upon the spread of AIDS than the teachings of the Catholic church. In certain specific cases, such as Rwanda, other issues have also had a greater impact than the church on the spread of AIDS - such as the widespread use of systematic rape as a method of oppression/torture during the Hutu/Tutsi's civil war/genocide.

Also - if you look at the 10 nations in the World with the highest AIDS infection rates (all in Africa) none of them are majority Catholic nations, and the ones with by far the highest infection rates (Zimbabwe and Botswana) have a miniscule Catholic proportion, as indeed does the country with the highest real number of AIDS sufferers in the world (South Africa) :

COUNTRY INFECTION RATE PERCENTAGE OF CATHOLICS IN POPULATION
Zimbabwe 25.8 % 7.7 %
Botswana 25.0 % 4.9 %
Zambia 19.0 % 26.4 %
Malawi 15.0 % 19.6 %
Mozambique 14.2 % 22.2 %
South Africa 13.0 % 6.4 %
Rwanda 12.7 % 47.8 %
Kenya 11.6 % 23.3 %
Cen. African Rep 10.8 % 23.0 %
Djibouti 10.3 % 1.3 %

Either every single Catholic alive in the above nations is HIV+ and working flat-out to spread it throughout the rest of the continent in the name of Papa JP, or the soyrce of the problem is much, much more complex than one than can simply be attributed to Catholic teachings on contraception.

Whilst the Catholic Church/Pope's stance on condoms certainly won't be helping, the above figures show that it is ludicrously sloppy anti-Catholic rhetoric/journalism to blame the church for the spread of a disease that has much deeper cultural causes than the teachings of any single church could ever hope to compete with.

[Neish]

The man should be retired be it voluntary or non-voluntary. How can a man in such a state be the head of one of the biggest religions in the world?

What age is he anyhow?

[dcfcsteve]

The man should be retired be it voluntary or non-voluntary. How can a man in such a state be the head of one of the biggest religions in the world?

What age is he anyhow?

I do agree with you on that. Apparently the Cardinals are planning a compulsory age of retirement at from now on (80yrs of age).

[green goblin]

The man should be retired be it voluntary or non-voluntary. How can a man in such a state be the head of one of the biggest religions in the world?

What age is he anyhow?

In the Anglican church the Archbishop of Canterbury is allowed to retire on a nice pension. Either that or the ruling monarch sends some fellas with swords round to lop their heads off, but that hasn't happened for a while now.

[anto eile]

Even thoug your vaguely on the same side as PP I'm sure he will edit your post/give you a warning for your breaking of foot.ie's attack pos not poster rule-i.e. "deluded fool"-this deluded fool has good GCSE results and is the St. John Ambulance Cadet of the year for Surrey :rolleyes:
And I do believe I am eating the body of my Lord at Communion and am tus being forgiven for my sins; and I'm not a fascist :D
Any more issues ya got with me-don't really want to hear 'em!

re deluded fool;im atacking your view,not you personally.
"im certainly no fascist.fascists dress in black and go around telling people what to do ,whereas priests...." Crilly, Ted. :D

[anto eile]

I'm a bit loathe to stoke this whole debate up again, but to be honest - the concept of blaiming the Pope and the Catholic Church for the spread of Aids in Africa has been bothering me.

Firstly, it's afact that cultural reasons are a greater prohibitor towards condom use in Africa than the preachings of a single Christian church. Two key isses here : firstly, it is well noted that there is a general cultural antagonism towards condom use amongst males in African society in general. This is a cultural issue - not a religious one. Secondly - amongst certain widespread animist sects within Africa it is believed that if an AIDS victim has sex with a virgin, they are actually cured of the disease (it's the same belief that lies behind Muti killings - i.e. that you can absorb someone else's purity for yourself). In reality, these 2 factors (in particular antipathy towards condoms in general) have to-date had a greater impact upon the spread of AIDS than the teachings of the Catholic church. In certain specific cases, such as Rwanda, other issues have also had a greater impact than the church on the spread of AIDS - such as the widespread use of systematic rape as a method of oppression/torture during the Hutu/Tutsi's civil war/genocide.

Also - if you look at the 10 nations in the World with the highest AIDS infection rates (all in Africa) none of them are majority Catholic nations, and the ones with by far the highest infection rates (Zimbabwe and Botswana) have a miniscule Catholic proportion, as indeed does the country with the highest real number of AIDS sufferers in the world (South Africa) :

COUNTRY INFECTION RATE PERCENTAGE OF CATHOLICS IN POPULATION
Zimbabwe 25.8 % 7.7 %
Botswana 25.0 % 4.9 %
Zambia 19.0 % 26.4 %
Malawi 15.0 % 19.6 %
Mozambique 14.2 % 22.2 %
South Africa 13.0 % 6.4 %
Rwanda 12.7 % 47.8 %
Kenya 11.6 % 23.3 %
Cen. African Rep 10.8 % 23.0 %
Djibouti 10.3 % 1.3 %

Either every single Catholic alive in the above nations is HIV+ and working flat-out to spread it throughout the rest of the continent in the name of Papa JP, or the soyrce of the problem is much, much more complex than one than can simply be attributed to Catholic teachings on contraception.

Whilst the Catholic Church/Pope's stance on condoms certainly won't be helping, the above figures show that it is ludicrously sloppy anti-Catholic rhetoric/journalism to blame the church for the spread of a disease that has much deeper cultural causes than the teachings of any single church could ever hope to compete with.

swaziland , hiv 40%.and growing.a cultural thing too.
but the church is entirely irresponsible in its vitriol of condoms.thats reason alone to criticize it. and be honest, karol wojtyla is an arrogant old man totally out of touch with reality

[anto eile]

I do agree with you on that. Apparently the Cardinals are planning a compulsory age of retirement at from now on (80yrs of age).

popes are nearly 80 when they get the cushy job in the first place!

[dcfcsteve]

swaziland , hiv 40%.and growing.a cultural thing too.
but the church is entirely irresponsible in its vitriol of condoms.thats reason alone to criticize it. and be honest, karol wojtyla is an arrogant old man totally out of touch with reality

Good shout. Has just overtaken Botswana as the country with the World's highest HIV infection rate. 38.8% and rising. Percentage of Catholics there = 20%.

I'm no arch-Catholic, haven't even been to mass in 14 years, and think the church's teaching on condoms is severly outdated, but the impact it has upon reproductive health is dramatically overrated. As mentioned before, cultural reasons have a much greater impact upon sexual health than the views of a minority religious faith.

For people to blame the Catholic Church for the spread of AIDS in Africa, as happens regularly in the media and likewise earlier in this thread, is completely unfounded in fact and a very lazy cheap shot at the church.

[piratemousey]

i didnt mean to start this as a treat. DIDNT EVEN KNEW I TYPED THAT STUFF DOWN!!

[Bald Student]

The man should be retired be it voluntary or non-voluntary.I disagree. He is still of sound mind and there is nothing wrong with an elderly and disabled person doing a job which they are still able to do.

[dcfcsteve]

I disagree. He is still of sound mind and there is nothing wrong with an elderly and disabled person doing a job which they are still able to do.

The Pope's job is essentially to be the primary representative of the Catholic Church/God on earth. He's the George W Bush of the Catholic Church, if you like.

Unfortunately, JP II is clearly no longer able to perform that role. A key element for any leader is communication, and sadly the decline in the Pope's health means that he is barely comprehensible in verbal communication. I doubt his writing or typing skills are strong either due to Parkinson's/Alzheimer's disease. Therefore - even if the Pope's brain was fully intact (and I'd question whether it hasn't also been ravaged by illness just like his body), it would be fairly irrelevant, as his ability to communicate it's thoughts is severly restricted.

I'm not being anti-Pope here, but a leader who can no longer communicate is effectively no longer a leader. I agree that elderly/disabled people should not be prevented from doing jobs they are capable of doing, but JP2 is sadly but clearly no longer capable of fulfilling the core remit of his role.

[Bald Student]

The Pope's job is essentially to be the primary representative of the Catholic Church/God on earth
...
but JP2 is sadly but clearly no longer capable of fulfilling the core remit of his role.We'll have to agree to disagree here so. He doesn't need to be able to shout or even speak loudly to communicate his message and I doubt wheather he ever did his own typing. That he continues in his role dispite his disability shows a lot of courage and dignity and is an example in itself. I believe he does more for the cause of elderly and disabled people than any equality legislation.

As to the point about communication being a major part of his role, I agree fully. It must be remembered that more people have seen this Pope than all the previous popes put together. He has certainly been a peoples pope. He has travelled the world visiting his fellow catholics as well as members of all the other large religions. He can't do that any more but he is still communicating his message. He is due to make a broadcast from his bed this Thursday (I think).

[dcfcsteve]

We'll have to agree to disagree here so. He doesn't need to be able to shout or even speak loudly to communicate his message and I doubt wheather he ever did his own typing. That he continues in his role dispite his disability shows a lot of courage and dignity and is an example in itself. I believe he does more for the cause of elderly and disabled people than any equality legislation.

As to the point about communication being a major part of his role, I agree fully. It must be remembered that more people have seen this Pope than all the previous popes put together. He has certainly been a peoples pope. He has travelled the world visiting his fellow catholics as well as members of all the other large religions. He can't do that any more but he is still communicating his message. He is due to make a broadcast from his bed this Thursday (I think).

If you'd be happy with Bertie Ahern representing Ireland as Taoiseach - let alone the current Pope as leader of the world's single biggest religion - even though he was at that advanced a state of poor health then that's your decision I guess.

Without meaning to be rude - I wouldn't hold your breath on expecting a long or particularly coherent statement from his bed-side. But hey - I'm sure he chats away fluidly to the Cardinals about the numerous key issues facing the church (decline in numbers coming forward for the priesthood, sex-abuse allegations in a number of countries, approach to the changing position of other major world faiths etc etc) to get his personal message across on such complex matters when the cameras aren't looking....

[liam88]

We'll have to agree to disagree here so. He doesn't need to be able to shout or even speak loudly to communicate his message and I doubt wheather he ever did his own typing. That he continues in his role dispite his disability shows a lot of courage and dignity and is an example in itself. I believe he does more for the cause of elderly and disabled people than any equality legislation.

As to the point about communication being a major part of his role, I agree fully. It must be remembered that more people have seen this Pope than all the previous popes put together. He has certainly been a peoples pope. He has travelled the world visiting his fellow catholics as well as members of all the other large religions. He can't do that any more but he is still communicating his message. He is due to make a broadcast from his bed this Thursday (I think).

Good call-100% agree! Love the man he is the greatest man alive and God's divine representation on Earth :D

On a side note-anto; I never called you a facist-you called me one-say what you want re. calling me a fool but I'll leave it to the Mods to judge ;)

[finlma]

Good call-100% agree! Love the man he is the greatest man alive and God's divine representation on Earth :D


Thats an opinion Liam and not fact. One thing I dislike about Catholicism is people shoving it down your throat.

I can think of millions of better people in the world than JP. I've a friend living in Malawi helping children with Aids and she wipes the floor with the pope in my opinion.

[liam88]

Thats an opinion Liam and not fact. One thing I dislike about Catholicism is people shoving it down your throat.
Never tried to shove it down ya throat-jsut expressing ma opinion-that's what the board is for :D



I can think of millions of better people in the world than JP. I've a friend living in Malawi helping children with Aids
Fair play to her-I'm not rubbishing the work of people who help the poor both at home and abroad, soldiers, docters etc. All great people....in fact I'm taking a gap year to either work on a hospital boat in Africa or help the poor in India; it's just that in my opinion the Pope is the greatest man alive :)

[green goblin]

.

...she wipes the floor with the pope....

It's nice to see him mucking in and lending a hand, then, even at his age.