IRA Withdraw from Disarmament

[finlma]

Not really good news for the peace process. I can't see them returning to violence but its a huge setback.

[exile]

it had nothing to do with the sinn fein/ira criminal acts no :rolleyes:

[Éanna]

no huge surprise in many ways. its a pity unionism couldn't have taken a leap of faith 2 or 3 years ago, when it would have transformed the whole thing. the vacuum thats existed since has really damaged the whole process, and this is the unfortunate result. that said, the republican movement should really have gone the extra mile and given them the bloody photos. this is what happens when you get two extreme, pig-headed movements squaring up to each other

[finlma]

They're too busy working out what to do with all their cash to worry about getting rid of their weapons ;)

[Éanna]

Incidentally,still wondering why the NIPS,If they're that sure,why they've charged no-one........ :rolleyes:
two possible reasons:
1. It was a thoroughly professional job, they covered their tracks well and the RUC knows its them but can't prove it.
2. The RUC made that statement for political reasons, and has no evidence of any kind to prove it.

both equally possible IMO

[dancinpants]

it had nothing to do with the sinn fein/ira criminal acts no :rolleyes:

Are you Ian Paisley Jr in diguise? :rolleyes:

[exile]

Are you Ian Paisley Jr in diguise? :rolleyes:

SO ITS OK FOR A POLITICAL PARTY TO SAY MURDER IS NOT A CRIME :rolleyes:

[dahamsta]

Same warning as usual here: Keep it civil and non-personal or I'll lock it. Exile, turn off your CAPS LOCK please, it just makes you look like Ian Paisley.

adam /who can tick people off and stay on topic

[pete]

I think theres a big difference between knowing that the IRA carried out the robbery & proving which members did it which is probably why the PSNI made their announcement. They also have a Police Board in NI (more than we have here) which i'm sure oversees such announcements.

I think its time for everyone on this isalnd to realise the pariahs that the IRA are. Maybe they had some justification in the past for their acts (don't need to revisit) but what exactly do they need to protect with their weapons in 2005???

I'd be interested to know how many criminals vore for SF...

[lopez]

SO ITS OK FOR A POLITICAL PARTY TO SAY MURDER IS NOT A CRIME :rolleyes:And what about the people they are 'negotiating' with? Illegal invasion of another country, scrapping the Geneva convention whenever it suits them, bombing of civilians.

[Attack the post, not the poster. Any more personal attacks will result in a one week ban. --adam]

[dortie]

SO ITS OK FOR A POLITICAL PARTY TO SAY MURDER IS NOT A CRIME :rolleyes:

Its exactly people like good old exile who will drive Republicans back to full scale war. I mean why bother with politics if with a massive political mandate you are excluded from talks and ignored ?? There is division in Republican circles anyway, the media tend to turn a blind eye on it for political reasons. The SF knockers are simply proving to the Pro Adams/McGuinness republicans that they are banging their heads against a brick wall.

I mean The P.IRA leadership actually surrendered weapons for all this, unthinkable in Republican ideology. But sure that still wasnt enough, they wanted humiliation too. Whilst there was never mention of Loyalist, Unionist or British State weapons.

[exile]

Its exactly people like good old exile who will drive Republicans back to full scale war. I mean why bother with politics if with a massive political mandate you are excluded from talks and ignored ?? There is division in Republican circles anyway, the media tend to turn a blind eye on it for political reasons. The SF knockers are simply proving to the Pro Adams/McGuinness republicans that they are banging their heads against a brick wall.

I mean The P.IRA leadership actually surrendered weapons for all this, unthinkable in Republican ideology. But sure that still wasnt enough, they wanted humiliation too. Whilst there was never mention of Loyalist, Unionist or British State weapons.

dortie the only issue i have is with sinn frein/ira is the fact that they keep commiting crimes and what they see as crime.
any political party that says the murder of a mother of 10 children is not a crime has some serious moral issues

[pete]

Surely the DUP as biggest NI party can talk to whoever they want?

SF may be the biggest Nationalist Party but they only got 30 odd percent of total voters so are still in the minority. The DSLP probably have a lot in common amoung the 70% than the 30% SF vote.

btw the only NI Assembly politicians are the only people who can solve their own problems. There is nothing anyone in the Republic or UK can do about it.

[dancinpants]

Its disconserting to see that alot of people in the south are as ignorant to this situation as the Brits.

[liam88]

Think pulling out of the decommissioning is deffinatley an act to keep those in the IRA who fed up of the peace process, happy. There are deffinatley splits froming in the IRA and vague mumurs of the ceasefire ending which is still (thank you God) a long long way off.
I think that the bank raid was the hardliners showing that they are not going to support talks which get the Republican moevement nowhere (not sanctioned by the army council) and in response the army council have stopped any further splits by taking the deal off the table-keeping the hardliners in line whilst putting the peace process at a stalemate.
As a result this withdrawal may benifit the peace process in the long run as it is a measure of preventing splits which could mean a step toward the ceasefire ending.

I doubt the British are happy about the situation either-they want to pull out their troops, presumably to send to Iraq or even so they are ready for when the murmurs of a US/UK/(Israel?)-Iran war evolve into something more.
(Though effectivly this move can benifit them in the long term-any rise in violence by the IRA may result in moire troops being deployed-seriously stretching the British millatery with their current commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan).

[1 9 2 8]

Its disconserting to see that alot of people in the south are as ignorant to this situation as the Brits.
Yeah the ignorance of a lot of people from the south is unbelievable when it comes to the six counties. There is also the view of guilty until proved innocent when it comes to SF and the Republican movement from these same people

[wakenuppaddy]

dortie the only issue i have is with sinn frein/ira is the fact that they keep commiting crimes and what they see as crime.
any political party that says the murder of a mother of 10 children is not a crime has some serious moral issues
Mr Exile,With regard to your concerns about the murder of Jean mcConville.
As far as I remember as part of the peace process the IRA were asked to apologise for all the hurt and loss of life they had caused in the troubles. They issued this apology a number of years ago with the hope it would help bring the peace process to a positive conclusion.It was accepted at the time by all involved in the process and I would serioulsy question the wisdom of bringing up issues which have been dealt with at this time. The people who who continue to bring up these issues have dealt a mighty blow to hopes of a lasting peace in this country. History I feel won't remember most of the present 26 county politicans kindly.

[pete]

Not directed at any members here but i've got the impression that the further you go from the border that the stronger the support for the IRA "struggle". Like big 'RA support in Kerry & maybe even bigger for some people in the US. Suppose its easy to support a "war" if not living it.

Are the republican community discriminated like the bad days? I doubt it so why the need for a private army?

[dancinpants]

Are the republican community discriminated like the bad days? I doubt it so why the need for a private army?

Thanks for re-iterating my previous point!!! ;)

[exile]

Mr Exile,With regard to your concerns about the murder of Jean mcConville.
As far as I remember as part of the peace process the IRA were asked to apologise for all the hurt and loss of life they had caused in the troubles. They issued this apology a number of years ago with the hope it would help bring the peace process to a positive conclusion.It was accepted at the time by all involved in the process and I would serioulsy question the wisdom of bringing up issues which have been dealt with at this time. The people who who continue to bring up these issues have dealt a mighty blow to hopes of a lasting peace in this country. History I feel won't remember most of the present 26 county politicans kindly.

i see your point they apoligised fair enough they apoligised because they felt they have hurt people fair enough again
But they dont see the whats criminal about the murder people like jean mcconville or the punishment beatings they regulary dish out that is not moraley acceptable of a democratic party

[dancinpants]

i see your point they apoligised fair enough they apoligised because they felt they have hurt people fair enough again
But they dont see the whats criminal about the murder people like jean mcconville or the punishment beatings they regulary dish out that is not moraley acceptable of a democratic party

C'mere a minute theres alot the British goverment haven't apologised for - you don't deem them as criminal. Why is this? Are you also going to try and tell me that the Irish Government isn't corrupt? Ireland is fast becoming "home of the tribunal"!!! - is that morally acceptable?

Its really easy to pick on the easy target and forget everything else isn't it exile?

[exile]

C'mere a minute theres alot the British goverment haven't apologised for - you don't deem them as criminal. Why is this?

you shouldnt make assumptions dancin
ya i do i hold the brits more so responsible for the mess than anyone else and tatcher should be held for war crimes

but tell me dancin why do you think sinn fein /ira dont see the murder of jean mcconville as a criminal act? do you even see it as a criminal act

[dancinpants]

I have a question, and this isn't being smart either - but I'm curious, are you related in some way to the late Jean McConville? If you are, then I'll understand why you constantly bring the ladys name up.

[exile]

[QUOTE=dancinpants]you also going to try and tell me that the Irish Government isn't corrupt? Ireland is fast becoming "home of the tribunal"!!! - is that morally acceptable?
QUOTE]

wow your a shrewd guy your right again :rolleyes: irish politicans are corrupt

but somehow you seem to think its ok to compare walking a mother of 10 up a beach and putting a bullet in her head and taking a bribe :rolleyes:

[exile]

I have a question, and this isn't being smart either - but I'm curious, are you related in some way to the late Jean McConville? If you are, then I'll understand why you constantly bring the ladys name up.

you still havent answered my question :rolleyes:

[dancinpants]

Well, to be honest, what you have just said is a sickening thought I don't dispute that. But (if my memory serves me correctly)she'd still be alive today if the Security Forces didn't put her life in jeopardy TWICE by asking her to spy. She was found out the first time and given a warning then the cops got to her again and forced her to resume spying.

What sort of police force forces a mother of 10 to be an informant in the first place?

[dahamsta]

i see your point they apoligised fair enough they apoligised because they felt they have hurt people fair enough again
But they dont see the whats criminal about the murder people like jean mcconville or the punishment beatings they regulary dish out that is not moraley acceptable of a democratic partyI don't understand this logic tbh. If it's "fair enough" that they apologised, shouldn't that be an end to it? If it's not an end to it - and it seems pretty obvious you feel that it isn't - why say "fair enough"? Isn't that a rough equivalent of the traditional political "with all due respect"?

adam

[exile]

I don't understand this logic tbh. If it's "fair enough" that they apologised, shouldn't that be an end to it? If it's not an end to it - and it seems pretty obvious you feel that it isn't - why say "fair enough"? Isn't that a rough equivalent of the traditional political "with all due respect"?

adam
my apoligise i was being sarcastic should have made it more obvious

[dahamsta]

Ok, so the apology wasn't enough then. What would be enough?

[EDIT: I'm not being smart btw, I just don't get it. Will anything be enough? If not, should we just toss the peace process aside and let these lunatics start killing each other again? Let people like Paisley say "I told you so"?]

adam

[exile]

Ok, so the apology wasn't enough then. What would be enough?

adam

for them to give up criminality, punishment beatings spying on politicians, etc

[dahamsta]

for them to give up criminality, punishment beatings spying on politicians, etcFair enough. Some might say that's what they're trying to do, but the politicians are derailing that process in an attempt to feed their own egos and careers. And what about the loyalists? Why isn't there a comment in your sig about them? Do you support their criminality, their punishments beatings, both of which are far more widespread than on the provo side? As to spying on politicians, well, that cuts both ways, unless you think the bug Gerry Adams held up a while back was a plant or something...

Christ, you're making me sound like an IRA sympathiser, which is a bit much coming from a treehugger like me. I just get ticked off when I see one-sided accusations and commentary being thrown around. It's all a bit Ian Paisley for my liking...

adam

[exile]

Fair enough. Some might say that's what they're trying to do, but the politicians are derailing that process in an attempt to feed their own egos and careers. And what about the loyalists? Why isn't there a comment in your sig about them? Do you support their criminality, their punishments beatings, both of which are far more widespread than on the provo side? As to spying on politicians, well, that cuts both ways, unless you think the bug Gerry Adams held up a while back was a plant or something...

Christ, you're making me sound like an IRA sympathiser, which is a bit much coming from a treehugger like me. I just get ticked off when I see one-sided accusations and commentary being thrown around. It's all a bit Ian Paisley for my liking...

adam

your right i should make it more clear thati feel the same utter contempt for the unionists and british army up there as well as sinn fein/ira but my whole point being is that they are not trying to win votes down here but sinn fein/ira are and political party that condones murder well speaks for itself really.

[Closed Account 2]

By the way they've (IRA) just put out another statement via the television, saying that both British and Irish Governments are to blame, and that it is a serious state of affairs, or words to that effect.

[dortie]

Well, to be honest, what you have just said is a sickening thought I don't dispute that. But (if my memory serves me correctly)she'd still be alive today if the Security Forces didn't put her life in jeopardy TWICE by asking her to spy. She was found out the first time and given a warning then the cops got to her again and forced her to resume spying.

What sort of police force forces a mother of 10 to be an informant in the first place?


Well said !!!

[Lionel Ritchie]

Well, to be honest, what you have just said is a sickening thought I don't dispute that. But (if my memory serves me correctly)she'd still be alive today if the Security Forces didn't put her life in jeopardy TWICE by asking her to spy. She was found out the first time and given a warning then the cops got to her again and forced her to resume spying.

What sort of police force forces a mother of 10 to be an informant in the first place?

Can you quote me one place other than An Phoblacht where those allegations are substantiated? ...or is it one of those "dogs in the street" facts? I have read quite a lot on the troubles/the struggle/whatever -in my time and I've yet to read a single journalist who produced a shred of credible evidence that Jean McConville was a spy.
So the IRA -in it's infinite mercy -gave Jean a yellow card eh? That'd be a first for them then.

Jean McConville was in all likelyhood murdered as a deterent to others who might offer medical assistance, succour or any other petty comfort to a dying member of the security forces. This "spying for the peelers" thing stinks of exactly what it is ...steaming hot horse caca!!!

[Risteard]

What are ya on about here, Eanna?
its a pity unionism couldn't have taken a leap of faith 2 or 3 years ago, when it would have transformed the whole thing.
I think there could be huge divisions in the ira ready to come to the surface.
The DUP can proudly claim responsibility for finally getting rid of the fudge re decommisioning. Fudge and ambiguity in political documents are essential where there are polar opposites but if the GFA was on course all the time, the ira would be gone by now. Its not an ideal world.

I don't get the idea that they know it was the ira without knowing which members it was. I mean they don't go around in tracksuits with ira written on the back. Hugh Ordes statement was very misguided, badly thought out and ill-timed. I mean what did he hope to gain from it like?
Stick to your job.

[pete]

Not wanting to trivialise the issues being debated but thought great Martyn Turner cartoon in the IT today sums up the recent IRA topics.

[Aldini98]

Ah theyre right, that ******* Ahern blamed them straight away for the Northern Bank robbery. Sooner the better theres a General Election so we can get rid of that *****

[Éanna]

What are ya on about here, Eanna?
i mean when trimble had the chance to make a leap of faith, and move the whole thing forward, but gave into the likes of donaldson etc and went off singing no surrender. that was what started all this crap, and its whats left us in the situationthe process is in now.

[Closed Account 2]

Not wanting to trivialise the issues being debated but thought great Martyn Turner cartoon in the IT today sums up the recent IRA topics.

Didnt see it, any chance of scanning and linking it ?

[eoinh]

Well said !!!


You just dont accept that the IRA are responsible for anything do you?

What about the Kingsmill massacre? Was that justified? Was the separating of Protestant and Catholic workmates by the IRA and just shooting the Protestant workers dead some grand republican victory that I am missing?

[dcfcsteve]

As for the IRA, I know they've become all sensitive and for years every time a kid was blown apart they couldn't claim responsibility fast enough whereas now they get all upset when someone suggests they were implicated in a bank job, but this is pretty poor. Another black chapter in their history. What is the imperative to retain guns at this stage of the process and for what purpose do they intend to use them? Why are they so afraid of handing up their illegal weapons?

Have to agree with you. As far as I'm concerned the IRA in the post-1969 phase of its history ceased to exist around 1996/97 when the second ceasefire came into place.

Since then, the organisation has existed in name more than ouvert activity. However, some of its members have since then realised that access to guns, local kudos, and the apparent backing of a large private army opens all sorts of doors and opportunities within the modern criminal world and allows you to throw a bit of weight around if you want. Hence the branching into knocked-off fags, smuggled fuel, drugs, pirated DVD's etc, and an increase in the use of 'punishment attacks' purely as a means of score settling for individuals. There is no doubt that certain senior IRA members are involved in these types of activity, and that the rest of the organisation is aware and tolerates it, regardless of any dismissals stated by Sinn Fein. That's not what the struggle for Irish freedom is or should ever be about. That's straight-forward mafia-style gangsterism.

The problem as I see it is that the balance of power in the relationship between the 2 strands of Republicanism (the Provos and SF) has recently shifted back in favour of the IRA. Up until recently, SF were able to keep the provos in check by-and-large, as pursuit of the 'democratic' aims that they'd all signed-up to was the key Republican objective. However - since SF became the biggest nationalist party, rather than cement the party's ascendency within the Republican relationship it's instead lead the IRA to realise that they can pretty much get away with anything they want these days, as no-one can exclude Sinn Fein from the peace process. And as there's no 'war' any more, the type of things some of the IRA's membership are getting away with are nothing short of gangsterism.

I reckon that the IRA is slowly morphing into a number of underworld criminal gangs that will carve-up certain lines of business/parts of the country between them and clean-up within organised crime activities. Whilst Jamaican yardies, Kosovan/Serbian/Kurdish/Albanian etc gangs rule the underworld in England because they have access to hardware and aren't afraid to use it, there's no criminal organisation in Western Europe that could seriously hope to mount a turf battle against the IRA. It would be suicide. I can therefore see The Provos morphing into self-serving gangs who exploit this fact for personal gain (using chunks of the current IRA arsenal that they've got squirrelled away).

Therefore - how long is it going to be before the former-IRA is involved in lucrative but despicable trades like people smuggling (modern-day slavery).

Not only is the war over, but so to is the modern-day IRA. Patrick Pearse and Michael Colins must be turning in their graves.....

[Docboy]

Not the biggest fan of violence in any form but there seems to be more pressure on the Ra than the other criminal/political factions UDA etc. Even before that robbery it was clear that Paisley et al had no intention of agreeing anything with Sinn Fein. They don't seem to accept that both sides have to give something for this thing to work.

Not sure which way it's going now with the latest staement from P O'Neill. Hopefully not back to the way it was!

[Closed Account 2]

I reckon that the IRA is slowly morphing into a number of underworld criminal gangs that will carve-up certain lines of business/parts of the country between them and clean-up within organised crime activities. Whilst Jamaican yardies, Kosovan/Serbian/Kurdish/Albanian etc gangs rule the underworld in England because they have access to hardware and aren't afraid to use it, there's no criminal organisation in Western Europe that could seriously hope to mount a turf battle against the IRA. It would be suicide. I can therefore see The Provos morphing into self-serving gangs who exploit this fact for personal gain (using chunks of the current IRA arsenal that they've got squirrelled away).


This sort of thing usually does happen once most conflicts begin to end. For example when the Soviet Afghan War ended in 89 the Mujahideen began to branch out in drug peddling, smuggling etc so much so that in 1990-1992 you had a situation where the anti Soviet guerillas split up and launched turf wars against each other instead of trying to topple the DRA (Soviet's Puppet Regieme). Ironically many of the Soviet veterans of that war Afghansti began to slip into occupations within the criminal fraternity, initially working as bouncers, then operating protection rackets. Much of the modern Russian Mafia is made up of Afghansti (Galeotti estimates around 3/4rs of the Russian Mafia in 1994 had seen active service in Afghanistan), this also helped the Russian Mafia develop links with the Army/KGB (many Mafiosi had colleagues still in the Army etc), some alledge that this link (between Russian Organised Crime and the FSB/OMON (new KGB)) is still very active, however I tend to agree with the suggestion that the link dissappeared around mid 1995. Although the elimination of Yanderbiyev (which has all the hallmarks of a Russian Mafia Job) suggests the Russians will go down that path if its a matter of major national security, and if I was Zakayev, or his English Actress benefactor, I dont think I would be getting too much sleep in in Chiswick, or where ever it is they live.

[CollegeTillIDie]

The Minge column in the magazine In Dublin has proposed the following solution to the Northern problem:-

" All the Rangers fans in the six counties should house swap with all the Celtic fans in Scotland thus reversing the plantation of Ulster." Sounds ridiculous...initially but if nothing else works might be worthy of some slight consideration. :D

[dortie]

As for the IRA, I know they've become all sensitive and for years every time a kid was blown apart they couldn't claim responsibility fast enough whereas now they get all upset when someone suggests they were implicated in a bank job, but this is pretty poor. Another black chapter in their history. What is the imperative to retain guns at this stage of the process and for what purpose do they intend to use them? Why are they so afraid of handing up their illegal weapons?

At least they claimed responsibility when they made mistakes unlike the Brits who murdered countless children that nobody seems to remember or highlight, at least 12 in my home town alone. Plastic bullets to the head etc. Not one seen Justice for their acts.

What is their imperative to retain their guns ? Look back to 1969 and the Catholics been run out of their homes by loyalists, it wont ever happen again. I for one hope the IRA dont hand over ONE more weapon.

[dortie]

You just dont accept that the IRA are responsible for anything do you?

What about the Kingsmill massacre? Was that justified? Was the separating of Protestant and Catholic workmates by the IRA and just shooting the Protestant workers dead some grand republican victory that I am missing?

Of course I do, the IRA claimed responsibility when they did carry out activities.

Kingsmill ??? Is this another isolated instance in the troubles you are highlighting ??

What about Loughgal, What about Eamon Bradley in Derry shot in the head as he tried to crawl away, What about Greysteel, What about Pat Finucane, What about Rosemary Nelson, What about Mr Devenney in Derry, What about .....

Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick 40 years, a Catholic priest in Ballymurphy, west Belfast, he was shot dead by British soldiers firing from concealed positions overlooking Ballymurphy, on 9 July 1972. Fr. Fitzpatrick was praying over a wounded man when he was shot. Also killed in the Ballymurphy area that day by British army snipers were, Patrick Butler (39), Margaret Gargan (13), John Dougal (16) and David McCafferty (14).

William Fleming 19 years, Derry City, an IRA activist, he was shot dead by undercover British soldiers at Gransha Hospital, Derry, on 6 December 1984. Another IRA activist, Daniel Doherty (23) was shot dead in the same incident.

James (Jim) Gallagher 20 years, Derry City, shot dead sitting in a bus by a British soldier as it passed an Army barrack in Derry on 17 May 1976. The soldier was in an observation post and shot Mr Gallagher as he sat upstairs at the back of the bus.

Hugh Gilmore 17 years, Derry City, shot dead by British soldiers at an anti-internment march in Derry on 30 January 1972. In total fourteen people, including Mr Doherty were killed or fatally wounded that day, known later as Bloody Sunday. The others killed were; Gerard Donaghy (17), Kevin McElhinney (17), Bernard McGuigan (41), John Duddy (17), William Nash (19), Michael McDaid (20), John Young (17), Michael Kelly (17), James Wray (22), Patrick Doherty (31), Gerald McKinney (35), William McKinney (26) and John Johnston (59).


Do you want me to continue ????

[dortie]

Not only is the war over, but so to is the modern-day IRA. Patrick Pearse and Michael Colins must be turning in their graves.....

Your right there, they wouldnt have handed over weapons.

[eoinh]

.Also,since when did anyone ever decommission anything in Afganistan,Palestine,Iraq,E.Timor,Angola,Vietnam,T he Congo,Rwanda,Nicaragua or even the Montana Militia :eek:



Guns have been decommisioned in E. Timor, Vietnam and Nicaragua

Guns were not decommisioned in Afganistan, Iraq, Angola, The Congo, Rwanda

Funnily enough the countries most at peace are E. Timor, Vietnam and Nicaragua.


Of course I do, the IRA claimed responsibility when they did carry out activities.
No they dont

In kingsmill for instance the group that claimed responsibility was the South Armagh Republican Action Force. This cover name was used on other occassions by the IRA such as at the Tullyvallen massacre.

[lopez]

Not only is the war over, but so to is the modern-day IRA. Patrick Pearse and Michael Colins must be turning in their graves.....

Your right there, they wouldnt have handed over weapons.
Yes, and neither would they have involved themselves in drugs.