Brexit Impact on LOI

[Mr A]

The PFAI think Brexit could benefit the league: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/could-brexit-transform-irish-football-prlnz96kw?shareToken=f324e7a8b02b05167cd88298405fc a3f

[disgruntled]

Interesting article. Thanks Mr A.

I don't agree with everything that McGuinness says but he does make some excellent points.
However he seems to be another who thinks that there's nothing beyond the pale with his reference to Dublin Airport. There's a whole wide world out there Stephen. You should come & visit it sometime.
Another thing is that anyone involved in any way with Soccer in Ireland are only too familiar with players coming back crocked both in body & spirit.
The general public may not know about them but most of the general public aren't interested.

Kenny made a lot of sense when he referred to state of the art Training Complexes & Stadiums. At least he is able to see the big picture beyond his first team squad. Pity there aren't more like him.

On a side note I noticed that there are some on here who hoped that Dundalk would not advance simply because their own little clubs can't keep up. What a sad outlook to have.
This is one of the reasons why the League is in the state it is.

[Mr A]

People are generally far more concerned about their own clubs than the league overall and that's natural. There is also the argument that Dundalk's financial advantage might render the league uncompetitive and thus damage it, which is entirely legitimate also.

[Philosophizer]

That article from the times is v interesting. Would it be worthy of it's own thread??

Does that mean that Championship on League1/2 clubs could still poach our best youngsters though??

[Mr A]

As suggested by Philosophizer I have independently enthreaded this particular discussion.

[nigel-harps1954]

Is it entirely possible we could end up with players on-loan from English clubs while they await UK visas?

[Philosophizer]

Is it entirely possible we could end up with players on-loan from English clubs while they await UK visas?

I'm guessing you're referring to English clubs loaning back young Irish players, as opposed to loaning us other young players they've bought from around the globe?? Sounds like a reasonable possibility if everything pans out according to the article.

Stephen Hunt wrote a piece in the independent last week talking about how Irish clubs should try to make better use of the loan system and loan more players from British clubs. he made some v interesting points - http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/stephen-hunt-young-loanees-from-england-could-light-up-league-of-ireland-34981707.html

[outspoken]

Interesting to note also that it says Tallaght will be the home of Dundalk for the Europa league group stages. I take it that means the temporary stand will be going back up

[Dodge]

On a side note I noticed that there are some on here who hoped that Dundalk would not advance simply because their own little clubs can't keep up. What a sad outlook to have.
This is one of the reasons why the League is in the state it is.

No, it's not. Whatever about supporting/not supporting Dundalk in Europe, that has no effect at all on the state of the LOI.

Unless you think the EPL and La Liga are strong because Liverpool/Barcelona fans back Man Utd/Real Madrid in Europe?

There's ZERO impact on the overall state of the LOI made by the decision of some to hope their rivals lose in Europe. None at all

[Philosophizer]

No, it's not. Whatever about supporting/not supporting Dundalk in Europe, that has no effect at all on the state of the LOI.

Unless you think the EPL and La Liga are strong because Liverpool/Barcelona fans back Man Utd/Real Madrid in Europe?

There's ZERO impact on the overall state of the LOI made by the decision of some to hope their rivals lose in Europe. None at all

The point was that ppl with that type of sad outlook (only seeing things purely in the interests of their own club) can hold the whole league back from progressing. And it's a perfectly valid point. Our league has indeed been hampered by that type of thinking in the past.

[Mr A]

Am pretty sure random fans not wanting other clubs to progress in Europe does not in any material way affect their chances of doing so.

[sbgawa]

Nobody wants a league dominated by one team like rosenberg or malmo. It's a reasonable position for a fan to be happy for dundalk getting Europa league type money which will allow them develop the club facilities and improve standards on and off the pitch but be worried about a situation that qualifying for champions league type money will make our league a procession like some other countries

[sbgawa]

The money in europe is getting so big relatI've to club budgets even for qualifying rounds that it is becoming more important to finish in top 3 or 4 if fai cup won by one of the top 3 then to actually win the league. In our own way our league is turning into a mini version of the epl ...which one of us is Arsenal ��

[Yossarian]

Am pretty sure random fans not wanting other clubs to progress in Europe does not in any material way affect their chances of doing so.

Surely not. Next thing you'll tell us is that shouting at a game on your television has no impact.

[Ashbohs]

The money in europe is getting so big relatI've to club budgets even for qualifying rounds that it is becoming more important to finish in top 3 or 4 if fai cup won by one of the top 3 then to actually win the league. In our own way our league is turning into a mini version of the epl ...which one of us is Arsenal ��

Here is the key to the future of the league if you ask me. Spreading the wealth . Its all about Dundalk at the moment but lets not forget 3 other teams have a crack at the euro money each season.
Most of the smaller Euro leagues Belgium Romania Slovenia to name a few have play offs for some of their Europa spots and i think this should be trialed in the LOI.
Give the Champs

[jinxy lilywhite]

About Rosenborg though but they haven't been the top side in Norway for a number of years and other clubs have caught up with them.
In the short term it may matter but in the course of a number of seasons it balances out.

[pineapple stu]

The Norwegian league is quite competitive these days. I think 8 teams have won in the past 12 years or something. And one of those later got relegated.

[marinobohs]

Nobody wants a league dominated by one team like rosenberg or malmo. It's a reasonable position for a fan to be happy for dundalk getting Europa league type money which will allow them develop the club facilities and improve standards on and off the pitch but be worried about a situation that qualifying for champions league type money will make our league a procession like some other countries

...ah yes, who can forget the 100 year dynasty created at Shels during the Ollie era, or indeed Bohs 20 year domination circa Nutsey. And, of course, Shams total domination of the league following their Europa league season.

Enjoy it now Dundalk fans because fears of the league being dominated due to European largesse is not a problem !

[Dodge]

The point was that ppl with that type of sad outlook (only seeing things purely in the interests of their own club) can hold the whole league back from progressing. And it's a perfectly valid point. Our league has indeed been hampered by that type of thinking in the past.

No, it's completely BS.

The league is absolutely not held back by supporters of our clubs. It's ridiculous to suggest that of all the problems with Irish football, that LOI fans are one of the main ones.

[Philosophizer]

No, it's completely BS.

The league is absolutely not held back by supporters of our clubs. It's ridiculous to suggest that of all the problems with Irish football, that LOI fans are one of the main ones.

I'm mainly referring to ppl involved in running the clubs, not the average punters who just watch the games. If the ppl running clubs have an insular mindset, it can hamper the progression of the league (and football in the country in general) as a whole.

[disgruntled]

No, it's not. Whatever about supporting/not supporting Dundalk in Europe, that has no effect at all on the state of the LOI.

Unless you think the EPL and La Liga are strong because Liverpool/Barcelona fans back Man Utd/Real Madrid in Europe?

There's ZERO impact on the overall state of the LOI made by the decision of some to hope their rivals lose in Europe. None at all

You've completely missed my point.
All I can do is quote Philosophizer who has it exactly right.
"The point was that ppl with that type of sad outlook (only seeing things purely in the interests of their own club) can hold the whole league back from progressing. And it's a perfectly valid point. Our league has indeed been hampered by that type of thinking in the past."

There is strength in numbers. The League of Ireland was founded in 1921 but apart from a few individual efforts here & there has not progressed one little bit in all that time. Its still as disorganized now as it has always been.
At the moment we have people complaining about Dundalks success only because it makes their own clubs look even poorer than before.
If you want your club to be a success then you have to do it yourself. No one is going to do it for you.

A perfect example of this is Cork City who under FORAS have advanced from being dead in the water to probably the most progressive club in the League. City lurched from one disaster to another until a group of Cork soccer followers said "enough is enough" & with the help of the courts took a corpse of a club & turned it into the vibrant progressive club that it is today. This has happened because people were prepared to put aside their own personal agendas & work together for the common good.

Other clubs in Ireland & around Europe have asked FORAS for advice in how they can do it themselves & FORAS members have traveled all over Europe to help fans groups in controlling the destiny of their own clubs. FORAS have even produced a handbook which advises & sets out the steps required.

The League of Ireland can be a great league if people are prepared to put aside their differences & work together.
Help is available but first of all you have to want to help yourselves.

[Mr A]

While FORAS do great stuff, and I have witnessed some of it first hand at ISN gatherings and at the Supporters Direct (am pretty sure they produced the handbook you refer to BTW) gathering in Manchester recently, those involved would acknowledge that other clubs are also fan owned and run and have been for some time. I agree with the thrust of your points, never mind the barstoolers, most LOI fans would rather bitch about John Delaney's salary than volunteer for their clubs and try to make a difference. Clubs should work together more and hopefully both the ISN and the FAI can be part of making that happen. But it still makes absolutely no difference whatsoever whether fans of other clubs want their rivals to progress in Europe.

[Dodge]

I'm mainly referring to ppl involved in running the clubs, not the average punters who just watch the games. If the ppl running clubs have an insular mindset, it can hamper the progression of the league (and football in the country in general) as a whole.

That is a world away from fans not wanting Dundalk to win

[Philosophizer]

Opposition fans wanting Dundalk to lose is still fairly petty too though imho.

Dundalk progressing to the CL group stages could have been invaluable marketing for our league. It might have convinced some barstoolers that the league is actually worthy of their time and money. Your very own club would probably have benefitted by gaining a few new fans.

Irish clubs progressing also improves the leagues co-efficient, which can make European progression (and by extension the promotion and prize-money that comes with that) more likely in the future for other LOI clubs.

And then there's the solidarity payments. If Dundalk had made the group stages this year, UEFA would have given the LOI at least 3.2 million, as a solidarity payment, some of which would have gone to your own club. I'm sure every LOI club would have liked that.

Each person it entitled to shout for whatever side they want when an Irish club is competing in Europe. I won't tell anyone who they should shout for, but if you were really shouting for Legia, I just feel sorry for you.

[Mr A]

The solidarity payments would be the only real benefit to other clubs though. There's a bit of a morale boost to followers of the league and a boost to gates for clubs playing Dundalk but little else. If you support a club that's challenging for the league it's terrible news (although in the short term the fixture pile up may open the door). I wanted Dundalk to get through mostly because of the extra solidarity payments and make no apology for that.

[Dodge]

Each person it entitled to shout for whatever side they want when an Irish club is competing in Europe. I won't tell anyone who they should shout for, but if you were really shouting for Legia, I just feel sorry for you.

I wasn't shouting for anyone.

I wrote this 3 weeks ago. I can see both sides to it. I think anyone who thinks that Dundalk winning helps their club is, well, deluded.

https://www.balls.ie/football/is-dundalks-european-win-good-for-the-league-of-ireland/341513

[Philosophizer]

Fair enough. Each to their own.

Funny you mention the other clubs challenging for the league. At the home match against BATE, after the 3rd goal went in I was hopping around the aisle like a lunatic. When I was retreating back to my seat in the back row, Liam Buckley tipped me on the shoulder and said something along the lines of - "this proves wrong the ppl who knock our league". He was visibly brimming with pride.

Dundalk's progression is obviously going to make his quest for silverware at Pats much more difficult over the coming years, but he was still glad that Dundalk had triumphed.

[Dodge]

Sure, most LOI people were. We'll see if their happiness helps us progress soon enough

[peadar1987]

The solidarity payments would be the only real benefit to other clubs though. There's a bit of a morale boost to followers of the league and a boost to gates for clubs playing Dundalk but little else. If you support a club that's challenging for the league it's terrible news (although in the short term the fixture pile up may open the door). I wanted Dundalk to get through mostly because of the extra solidarity payments and make no apology for that.

Yeah I don't have that problem

[A N Mouse]

Think this needs resurrecting.

There some discussion on the player development thread in the Ireland forum with respect to

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55152637

That seems to just concern English clubs. Don't know that there a lot of facts about direct impact here, but it is silly season so any impact on the LOI is up for discussion.



Northern Ireland is a gray area, and Derry City having a foot in each camp would be a different shade altogether.

Assuming different criteria for work permit for playing top flight NIFL, does Northern Ireland (maybe Wales) become new Belgium (it always seemed to be Belgian clubs that got loaned players) for younger player (u21) to get UK work permits?

Will Northern Ireland count as in the EU? Could we see an influx of investment to academies there, which would be able to sign young (16-18) players from anywhere in the EU. And as Schrodinger's association bypass wp restrictions.

And similarly does DCFC suddenly become attractive for younger Irish players looking to move to English Leagues. You'd think regardless of in/out state they'd be able to sign them, from the jurisdiction they compete in, at 16. Or are they stuck with 50Km into Donegal, or is it debatable they can sign anyone at all without some new exemption?

Who know? who cares?


Does the international ban, on u18 transfers, even apply between UK associations?

[EalingGreen]

There some discussion on the player development thread in the Ireland forum with respect to

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55152637

That seems to just concern English clubs. Don't know that there a lot of facts about direct impact here, but it is silly season so any impact on the LOI is up for discussion.

Northern Ireland is a gray area, and Derry City having a foot in each camp would be a different shade altogether.

Assuming different criteria for work permit for playing top flight NIFL, does Northern Ireland (maybe Wales) become new Belgium (it always seemed to be Belgian clubs that got loaned players) for younger player (u21) to get UK work permits?

Will Northern Ireland count as in the EU? Could we see an influx of investment to academies there, which would be able to sign young (16-18) players from anywhere in the EU. And as Schrodinger's association bypass wp restrictions.

And similarly does DCFC suddenly become attractive for younger Irish players looking to move to English Leagues. You'd think regardless of in/out state they'd be able to sign them, from the jurisdiction they compete in, at 16. Or are they stuck with 50Km into Donegal, or is it debatable they can sign anyone at all without some new exemption?
Don't hold me to any of this, but I think you may be conflating UEFA/FIFA regulations with UK Work Permit Laws.

Prior to Brexit, footballers from outside the EU had to qualify for a UK work permit. Basically the UK's Department of Work and Pensions and the UK footballing authorities got together and agreed minimum requirements for a permit to be granted eg senior caps for a high-ranking country, high transfer fee, minimum wages etc. This reflects that if you're looking to sign eg a Vanuatu footballer for £50k and paying him £250 pw, then he's just "cheap labour" keeping an equally qualified UK player out of a job.

Interestingly, the permit requirements are lower for Scotland/Wales/NI (even the English lower leagues?), on the basis that they cannot reasonably compete with PL clubs for signing top non-EU talent, indeed they need to replace their own best (domestic) players when they are signed by the top English clubs.

So as a general principle, EU players will now be subject to the same work permit requirements. However, it seems certain that this won't apply to players from the ROI, since the Common Travel Area arrangements, dating from 1921(?), which give ROI nationals prefential treatment over other non-British nationals will continue to apply, regardless of either/both being (or not being) in the EU:
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/ireland_and_the_uk/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

Therefore I don't think the transfer of ROI players to the UK will be affected in this respect, if anything it may help, since there may be fewer EU nationals to compete with?

Within that overall framework, you then have to consider the impact on current UEFA/FIFA regulations (transfers, under-18's etc). Tbh, I'm not sure that these will add any increased impediment, at least in the NI/ROI context.

In theory, 16-18 y.o.'s may be able to enter the UK via the NI "backdoor", but none of the IL clubs have an academy which would be attractive to any EU teenager, nor will that change anytime soon.

As for ROI youngsters, even if they are prevented from joining UK Academies until 18 (unsure?) they're v.ulikely to prefer an IL academy over their nearest LOI one. Of course the big exception may be DCFC, but they've always beeen an option up until now anyway.

And as for DCFC's status generally, although they are located in NI, nonetheless for footballing purposes they are an ROI club, thanks to their membership of the LOI. For example, a player signing for them from Coleraine FC (or v.v.) still has to complete an "International Transfer", regardless of whether he is from NI or ROI originally. But if they will have an advantage in selling NI-born players to GB, in practice they've always had that advantage over other LOI clubs who have few, if any, NI-born players. (Makes up for the disadvantage of paying VAT on gate receipts?)

So in conclusion, I don't think the ROI/LOI will lose greatly from all this; if anything, they may now have a (small) relative advantage over the other 26 EU members?



Does the international ban, on u18 transfers, even apply between UK associations?No, it doesn't.

Though in practice, the FA imposes a ban on English Academies signing players from outside their local catchment (100kms? 1 hour travel time? Unsure)

But this is to protect smaller clubs' Academies by stopping the top Academies like Chelsea, Liverpool, MU, hoovering up the best young children from all over the country, as well as protecting the childrens' welfare. (No more Essex lads like Beckham signing for MU)

[EalingGreen]

Update on my above post, where I wrote: "As for ROI youngsters, even if they are prevented from joining UK Academies until 18 (unsure?)..."


A thread in the International thread, quotes a tweet from Seán Ó Conaill, who knows what he's talking about, as follows:

"Once the UK finally completes Brexit unless there is a change to FIFA regulations or some express compromise agreed then the FIFA regulations are clear: UK clubs will be locked out of signing Irish players until they are 18."
https://twitter.com/soconaill/status/1334098595746902017?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1334098595746902017%7Ctwgr% 5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffoot.ie%2Fthreads%2F174697-Debate-Future-of-Youth-Development-in-Irish-Football%2Fpage22

[pineapple stu]

While that is true, the discussion in the Ireland thread looks at the possibility of the player moving to England with his family for *cough* non-footballing reasons. Which might be very conveniently close to the club a player signs for.

Still, at the very least, if signing U18s is still possible by that loophole, it will surely be quite reduced, even allowing for, as you note, the probability that Irish players will have to be competing with fewer others (effectively, the same as the pre Bosman era)

I do think the LoI has to step up (and be helped in that with support from the FAI and the Irish public) or the national team will continue to go backwards.

[A N Mouse]

Don't hold me to any of this, but I think you may be conflating UEFA/FIFA regulations with UK Work Permit Laws.
I don't think I was conflating anything. I was asking hypotheticals on how the two things (re-introduction of work permits for EU citizens and ban on international u18 transfers) would interact given the ambiguity of Northern Ireland's status.



Prior to Brexit, footballers from outside the EU had to qualify for a UK work permit. Basically the UK's Department of Work and Pensions and the UK footballing authorities got together and agreed minimum requirements for a permit to be granted eg senior caps for a high-ranking country, high transfer fee, minimum wages etc. This reflects that if you're looking to sign eg a Vanuatu footballer for £50k and paying him £250 pw, then he's just "cheap labour" keeping an equally qualified UK player out of a job.

Interestingly, the permit requirements are lower for Scotland/Wales/NI (even the English lower leagues?), on the basis that they cannot reasonably compete with PL clubs for signing top non-EU talent, indeed they need to replace their own best (domestic) players when they are signed by the top English clubs.

Obviously I'm not overly familiar with work permits, but I did try to point out I was making this assumption.

Maybe if I tried to rephrase the hypothetical into two parts. SO, similarly to how players unable to get a work permit are loaned out to Belgian clubs in order to become eligible. Could we now see the same happening with players of any age 'loaned out' (by fair means or foul) to Northern Irish or Welsh (or English lower tier) clubs in order to gain a work permit. Ie. how long would they need to work in the Uk before they could just move to any club? Would it be possible that a player win promotion, but is unable to play with his team the following season because of stricter work permit rules?

Now if we accept the above is hypothetically possible. And that Northern Irish clubs, unlike those from the rest of the UK may be able to sign 16yo EU citizens. Then the next hypothetical is what's to stop Arsenal/Man City/Rangers/Celtic whoever want's to keep signing 16yo EU prospects from linking up with Warrenpoint or Ballinamallard or somebody to create the infrastructure required to do so. Allowing the player to freely move to UK based clubs at 18/21/23.

Now the Fifa rules say that you can't have an academy without a club in the jurisdiction. So depending on how strictly that's interpreted and enforced the days of ManUtd/Celtic/Rangers/Swindon Town coming over and holding an 'academy' may be at an end too. Coupled with the underage transfer ban then as Stu says this will be to the detriment of the national teams, with the only remedy being positive investment in LOI/NIFL.



So as a general principle, EU players will now be subject to the same work permit requirements. However, it seems certain that this won't apply to players from the ROI, since the Common Travel Area arrangements, dating from 1921(?), which give ROI nationals prefential treatment over other non-British nationals will continue to apply, regardless of either/both being (or not being) in the EU:
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/ireland_and_the_uk/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

Didn't factor the common travel area, which means DCFC won't suddenly become attractive to underage Irish players looking a work permit loophole, should such exist. Which I suppose leads to the next question, if for the purposes of transfers NI is out of the EU then are DCFC at (a greater) disadvantage in LOI, or would the lower wp bar line up with EU FOM?



And as for DCFC's status generally, although they are located in NI, nonetheless for footballing purposes they are an ROI club, thanks to their membership of the LOI. For example, a player signing for them from Coleraine FC (or v.v.) still has to complete an "International Transfer", regardless of whether he is from NI or ROI originally. But if they will have an advantage in selling NI-born players to GB, in practice they've always had that advantage over other LOI clubs who have few, if any, NI-born players. (Makes up for the disadvantage of paying VAT on gate receipts?)

Signing an NI based player is an international transfer is a disadvantage, as selling/development clubs are entitled to ask for a higher fee (and development money if sold on), and rightly or wrongly the arm has been bogged the arm in a few times. Attracting NI/ROI players from beyond the city's natural hinterland has always been problematic, even when two contracts were on offer. The changes will surely impact availability/quality of English based loanees, or players returning home. And while there a chequered history with players from further afield, any fly in the ointment there would be another blow to recruitment policy.

[sbgawa]

Terrible news for the child slave traders in the DDSL who celebrate their success sending 15/16 year olds over to play in youth set ups in england in low divisions on 150 pounds a week knowing full well that 90%+ of them will be back branded as failures with many of them suffering with mental health problems etc.
Great news for child welfare

[Nesta99]

Terrible news for the child slave traders in the DDSL who celebrate their success sending 15/16 year olds over to play in youth set ups in england in low divisions on 150 pounds a week knowing full well that 90%+ of them will be back branded as failures with many of them suffering with mental health problems etc.
Great news for child welfare

That's the first thing that crossed my mind when FIFA clarified that RoI was not exempted under the CTA or anything eccentricity with Brexit, There will be a flurry of clubs looking at access to national leagues, link ups with current senior clubs and maybe just maybe a greater willingness to participate in new structures, streamlining seasons et al.

It does sound that Derry could be at least partially impacted by not being able to take U18s in from the Donegal hinterland unless the FAI come up with somthing.

Its a good thing, can change the powerbase in Irish football, but only if the opportunity is taken and clubs are ready to pick up the player development baton. Less tangible, but if done properly some kids may see that far away fields in England are not always greener and could be willing to stay beynd 18years especially with a change of picking up caps. The old nugget of proper player contracts are needed to maximise the value of return on development for the elite of the elite that will still be targeted by UK clubs.

It could be another seachange in the game here, plenty are playing catchup but it would be criminal not to use this to show that completing education, support, better emotional maturity while also playing here is better/healthier than being at the youth player farms for stock to be exported as early as possible. It ups the whole B Team potential in the 1st Div though.

[geysir]

That's the first thing that crossed my mind when FIFA clarified that RoI was not exempted under the CTA or anything eccentricity with Brexit, There will be a flurry of clubs looking at access to national leagues, link ups with current senior clubs and maybe just maybe a greater willingness to participate in new structures, streamlining seasons et al.

It does sound that Derry could be at least partially impacted by not being able to take U18s in from the Donegal hinterland unless the FAI come up with somthing.

Its a good thing, can change the powerbase in Irish football, but only if the opportunity is taken and clubs are ready to pick up the player development baton. Less tangible, but if done properly some kids may see that far away fields in England are not always greener and could be willing to stay beynd 18years especially with a change of picking up caps. The old nugget of proper player contracts are needed to maximise the value of return on development for the elite of the elite that will still be targeted by UK clubs.

It could be another seachange in the game here, plenty are playing catchup but it would be criminal not to use this to show that completing education, support, better emotional maturity while also playing here is better/healthier than being at the youth player farms for stock to be exported as early as possible. It ups the whole B Team potential in the 1st Div though.
I think Derry can continue to plough Donegal for ripe youth, with some restrictions though.

One of the exceptions prohibiting the transfer of minors - under 18
is 'The player lives no further than 50km from a national border and the club with which the player wishes to be registered in the neighbouring association is also within 50km of that border. The maximum distance between the player’s domicile and the club’s headquarters shall be 100km.In such cases, the player must continue to live at home and the two associations concerned must give their explicit consent.