Dundalk's Riches and Euro Riches in General- Implications for the League

[GCdfc]

Synthetic grass is driving people crazy. It's got to peeps in Dundalk, Greenfield sites are every thing that is wrong with modern football. We were in a similar difficult state in the 60s, two landlords, and a co tenant, we bought the ground by public subscription, Dundalk should buy the ground for the people of Dundalk, with their windfall and ensure that the game is played at Oriel until the meteorite hits.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/01/k2-synthetic-marijuana-legal-drug-dangerous

Where would the extra land required to upgrade Oriel a Category or two come from?

[paul_oshea]

Louth GAA eventually turned down this project as Drogheda clubs would not back the county stadium being in Dundalk.

DKIT were asking for €3.5m from Louth GAA.

They still want to proceed with a stadium but it was just a pipedream for ourselves until now.

Here are some details on the original proposal.

https://www.dkit.ie/presidents-office/documents-policies/dkit-gaa-stadium-proposal

https://www.dkit.ie/system/files/DkIT_Stadium_Proposal_1.pdf

4,000 capacity fully covered seated stand, incorporating 4 fully fitted dressing rooms,
2 referees’ rooms, a physio and treatment room, player, official and public toilet blocks
and a 200 seat reception room
• Media facilities
• 5,000 terraced stand constructed to be converted to a 2,500 seated stand in the future
• 3,000 capacity embankments to the ends and sides of the ground
• Stadium fully enclosed with parking for 100 within the enclosed space
• Stadium grade pitch similar to that installed in major professional venues
• Floodlighting to 300Lux (with infrastructure to upgrade to 800Lux if required)
• Electronic scoreboard

[colonelwest]

edit, wrong thread! :D

[mcgonigle]

Louth GAA eventually turned down this project as Drogheda clubs would not back the county stadium being in Dundalk.

DKIT were asking for €3.5m from Louth GAA.

They still want to proceed with a stadium but it was just a pipedream for ourselves until now.

Serious question WH. What makes you think they want to proceed?And what makes you think they would now be happy to build a football stadium instead of a GAA stadium?

[EatYerGreens]

The Euro money makes Dundalk a mark in their custody battle over Oriel, I would say the man cheering the loudest was yer man, the lease guy that all the Dunnies hate.
Great for them though nobody can begrudge it, RTE and the Alickadoo sh1te couldn't care less though, it's like Hereford beating Watford in the cup, nothing to see here.



I'd say yes and no on this one.

Yes, it means he knows the club have money so now is a good time to drive a hard bargain.

But also no - because the sum Dundalk will get will be big enough for them to say 'fcuk you' and look at starting the process of a new stadium somewhere else f he doesn't play ball. He'd then be left with a bit of land that he may or may not be able to monetise in other ways.

So a very interesting game of poker probably awaits.

[White Horse]

Serious question WH. What makes you think they want to proceed?And what makes you think they would now be happy to build a football stadium instead of a GAA stadium?

They wanted to build a multi sports stadium and were seriously p1ssed when Croke Park insisted it would be GAA only.

DKIT want to specialise in sports science and that was the main reason they took over the JJB complex. However, they are limited in not having a stadium. The anger at which they greeted the U-turn by Croke Park was noticeable and unusually strongly stated in public.

I see no evidence to support a contention that DKIT are no longer interested in a stadium. They are the only ones that know for certain. I expect them to be quite coy about it in public as they would want to limit the cost to them and to achieve the biggest investment possible from other parties.

[Partizan]

I know history is a big factor to take in but surely given the legal mess surrounding Oriel, maybe Dundalk would be better off saying Slán and either entering a partnership with DKIT or building their own ground from scratch. The former would be more feasible IMHO. Plenty of clubs here and abroad moved away from their historical home and set up shop elsewhere. Waterford played at Kilcohan from 1934 until 1993. Sure we lost a bit of tradition but it had become apparent by the mid 80s that staying at Kilcohan was going to be a non runner for a variety of reasons. Those millions should be put to better use and not to line some gob****e's pocket holding the Club to ransom over the lease.

[Real ale Madrid]

, and you go out just for a quiet pint, get a bit giddy and before you can say , rolled up fifty, it's cocaine and hookers. We have all been there.

True that! This made me LOL.

[Philosophizer]

The partnership with DKIT could be a very good option all right, presuming DKIT are still interested...

Yes it would involve leaving Oriel, but it's not like they'd be moving way out of the town to the countryside like Longford did. I'm sure the DKIT campus isn't as close to pubs like Oriel is but it's still in the town. Interested to hear the Dundalk lads' opinions...

[RathfarnhamHoop]

Where would the extra land required to upgrade Oriel a Category or two come from?

Who owns the fields behind each goal? I heard something about a school buying them but not sure but if you got your hands on them or even part of them then either levelled that big shed thing of incorporated it somehow you'd have loads of space


They have managed a very good business in the town for many years. So people are judging them on their track record in business.

That is not always a guarantee when it comes to running a football club.

Fair enough but I'd agree with that last line running a football club is a lot harder than running a business from what I've been told

[nigel-harps1954]

The main stand in Oriel is surely still in decent enough condition to necessitate a redevelopment rather than a move? Let's face it, they're not exactly in a position to be going off and building a big stadium in a greenfield site unless they do qualify for the group stage and earn the big big money.

Extending the main stand out to either end of the pitch and putting a smaller 'lower tier' seating in front of that as well as wrap around seating similar to Longford with a roof after that and they'd have easily one of the finest small stadiums in the country. They've a fine main stand, one of my favourites in the league. Moving away from a location like Oriel could hurt them in the long run.

€3m-€4m should go a long way to any redevelopment. You'd be looking at double that at minimum to make any sort of new stadium.

[colonelwest]

The main stand in Oriel is surely still in decent enough condition to necessitate a redevelopment rather than a move? Let's face it, they're not exactly in a position to be going off and building a big stadium in a greenfield site unless they do qualify for the group stage and earn the big big money.

Extending the main stand out to either end of the pitch and putting a smaller 'lower tier' seating in front of that as well as wrap around seating similar to Longford with a roof after that and they'd have easily one of the finest small stadiums in the country. They've a fine main stand, one of my favourites in the league. Moving away from a location like Oriel could hurt them in the long run.

€3m-€4m should go a long way to any redevelopment. You'd be looking at double that at minimum to make any sort of new stadium.

How much is it costing for your new digs Nige? I know it's going on years at this stage but can't remember the cost involved, I know the current ground was part of the deal though.

For comparison of what it would cost; FC Utd built Broadhurst Park from scratch and it cost 6.5m sterling and that was for a 4500 capacity with only a few seats, most of it is terraced. Oriel had an interior refit of the main stand the other year and the roof and side glass replaced also. For me, as Nigel said there, redo the main stand/ away end/ 5 min terrace, put a proper stand in the far side and make the shed go the whole length of the YDC, then possibly tarmac behind the town end goal and can stick another stand there. Bonus points for not having them seperate and having it wrap around.

The Carrick road end is a different kettle of fish as right behind that goal is an access road, though you could probably get a 5-10 row deep terrace/ stand in there and still leave enough room for a road in behind for access to the YDC, which already has an underground car park. That segues into the whole that's owned by the former owner and the pending court case with the lease and him looking for his 30 pieces of silver.

To get Oriel up to a cat 4 stadium we'll need:



150 parking spots
1400 vertical lux to fixed cameras
8,000
500 VIP seats hospitality area
100 VIP seats for the away team
A 400 m2 hospitality area
20m2 referees changing room
200 m2 for 75 people for media
100, 50 with desks for the press box
25 commentary positions
10 m2 for 4 cameras
2 TV studios, 1 with a view of the pitch
1,000m2 for outside broadcast facilities
75 seater press conference room


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_stadium_categories


A lot of that is doable with just a refurb but there's a hell of a lot involved in getting the VIP and media facilities up to snuff and it's debatable on if Oriel and the size of the land it sits on and the layout can handle it. Also then theres the pitch to open up that can of worms as well!

[nigel-harps1954]

Off the top of my head, I believe the original cost of the new Finn Park was to be in the region of €9m. But that was during boom times and including the current ground being worth around 3 or 4 million.

Also was just to be Category 3.

[White Horse]

Who owns the fields behind each goal? I heard something about a school buying them but not sure but if you got your hands on them or even part of them then either levelled that big shed thing of incorporated it somehow you'd have loads of space

The local grammar school owns the land.

Developing Oriel Park to category 4 standard would be very difficult. It is in a residential area and any attempt at creating a much higher capacity ground will run into planning difficulties. Exepct board planeala to be involved. We could still be talking about planning in 10 years, and millions would be spent on legal advice.

The land owned by DKIT that is earmarked for a stadium in in the industral zone right beside the Icedome and the former JJB fitness complex. It has a direct link to the M1 motorway and is beside thousands of car parking spaces. Planning would be a relative formality.

It depends on the ambition of the club. Do they want a fine LOI stadium that will comfortably accommodate 4,000, or do they want a European standard stadium that would accommodate 10,000?

Oriel Park can provide the former, but not the latter.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

The local grammar school owns the land.

Developing Oriel Park to category 4 standard would be very difficult. It is in a residential area and any attempt at creating a much higher capacity ground will run into planning difficulties. Exepct board planeala to be involved. We could still be talking about planning in 10 years, and millions would be spent on legal advice.

The land owned by DKIT that is earmarked for a stadium in in the industral zone right beside the Icedome and the former JJB fitness complex. It has a direct link to the M1 motorway and is beside thousands of car parking spaces. Planning would be a relative formality.

It depends on the ambition of the club. Do they want a fine LOI stadium that will comfortably accommodate 4,000, or do they want a European standard stadium that would accommodate 10,000?

Oriel Park can provide the former, but not the latter.

Would DKIT be interested in a ground that can't host GAA? They seem to be pretty GAA focused going by how many pitches each sport gets anyway.
I suppose you can see the pros and cons of both sides with the massive one for moving being no playing in Dublin. Personally I would try suck up to the council to try get Oriel to be that 8k cat4 stadium but am not a Dundalk support so don't really want to try argue for or against either decision I'll leave that to the people that know the club a lot better than I do.

[White Horse]

Would DKIT be interested in a ground that can't host GAA? They seem to be pretty GAA focused going by how many pitches each sport gets anyway.
I suppose you can see the pros and cons of both sides with the massive one for moving being no playing in Dublin. Personally I would try suck up to the council to try get Oriel to be that 8k cat4 stadium but am not a Dundalk support so don't really want to try argue for or against either decision I'll leave that to the people that know the club a lot better than I do.

I think any stadium with DKIT would have to multi-purpose. The people who have all the information will be the only ones able to weigh up the pros and cons of different options. Dundalk fans will only have limited information as well.

[TheBoss]

For goodness sake, the Dundalk crew are on Miriam's show! :excruciating:

[White Horse]

For goodness sake, the Dundalk crew are on Miriam's show! :excruciating:

Plenty of room on the bandwagon for you too. All welcome, even Drogs.

[nigel-harps1954]

Stephen Kenny got very emotional talking about it all. In all fairness, this bandwagon is great publicity for Dundalk, and I don't care what others say, this can only have a good knock on effect for the league.

[fionnsci]

The DKIT option would seem to be preferable if Oriel is truly limited to the extent stated above. Possible to get everything right from the beginning and wouldn't be going it alone.

I think the principle of sharing grounds between codes is fantastic and something Ireland is really lacking - there's talk on another thread about the failings of Turners Cross and Musgrave down in Cork, to offer a vague hypothetical example. Pooled resources can be far superior. Sydney FC play in a state of the art facility and campus because they share with the rugby codes. However, the pitch size difference between GAA and soccer would be a concern. It was doable in Croke Park (though not ideal) as it was such a large stadium, fans were high up, typically far away from the pitch anyway. What would we think of it in the context of an 8/10k stadium where the stands wouldn't be so large? (I might as well throw out the notion of retractable seating such as in the London Olympic Stadium though I can't see that possibly installed in a small venue like this would be).

[oriel]

The local grammar school owns the land.

Developing Oriel Park to category 4 standard would be very difficult. It is in a residential area and any attempt at creating a much higher capacity ground will run into planning difficulties. Exepct board planeala to be involved. We could still be talking about planning in 10 years, and millions would be spent on legal advice

The land owned by DKIT that is earmarked for a stadium in in the industral zone right beside the Icedome and the former JJB fitness complex. It has a direct link to the M1 motorway and is beside thousands of car parking spaces. Planning would be a relative formality.

It depends on the ambition of the club. Do they want a fine LOI stadium that will comfortably accommodate 4,000, or do they want a European standard stadium that would accommodate 10,000?

Oriel Park can provide the former, but not the latter.

I'd agree with this, I think if the best option is to stay at oriel park and redevelop it, as long as the lease can be resolved, the only option I can see is to go for a category 3 stadium.

I think that's min 4,500 seats, which would be ok to hold up to CL round 3, I think. There should be no issues changing the ground into a 6k seater, but that would probably be the limit.

A new stand could be built behind the town goal, completely re-fit out the shed side, and modify the main stand to have a curve section on both sides, I would also remove the terracing in front of the stand and take the seating right down to the touch line. These are 3 separate projects though and it might mean one per season with considerable disruption so it would effect each playing season. Then we have the pitch, that probably would be job number one, get it up and replaced with grass asap in my view.

Planning will be an issue for any building work as its residential stand side, and access points in other areas, however these are hurdles that any new build would come up against.

Getting the lease issue has to be the priority, without that, none of the above can happen.

[punkrocket]

If that big shed wasn't there, there'd be plenty of space rotate the pitch right angles to where it is now to leave room for development along the new sides.

[jinxy lilywhite]

If that big shed wasn't there, there'd be plenty of space rotate the pitch right angles to where it is now to leave room for development along the new sides.

That was the old format of oriel park back in the 50's. A major complaint was that there was one hell of a slope worst than the brandywell.

My own little dream was to win the euro millions and buy all the land around oriel going back towards the Ardee road including the freight depot from iarnroid eireann and build my oriel arena 12k seater stadia. In time I would hope to sell the naming rights to Oreo or to L'Oreal.

Tbh if the ydc wasn't there then maybe there would be scope for redeveloping op and possibly link traffic to the Ardee road which would give it a shorter link to the m1.

I am not an architect and wouldn't have a clue on costings and greenfield sites but in some cases it can be better all round. I love oriel and it's charm but we need a better venue. Imagine all the joy you lot would have if you didn't complain about the away end or the pitch

[orielabu]

Among the possibilities for an Oriel Park development, the one that is the most difficult to justify is to provide for a Category 4 licence.
How often would such a facility be required? Once every few years?
About as frequently as a Cup final?
And what could possibly justify a 10,000 seater?
No thanks.
An all-seater 4,000 with all mod cons is all that is needed.

[toffeejay]

Have to agree with that, just isn't enough justification for category 4.
I'm sure most Dundalk fans would accept having to travel down to Dublin possibly once every couple of years for a potential european fixture than to have to spend possibly double on a 10k stadium.

[GCdfc]

Among the possibilities for an Oriel Park development, the one that is the most difficult to justify is to provide for a Category 4 licence.
How often would such a facility be required? Once every few years?
About as frequently as a Cup final?
And what could possibly justify a 10,000 seater?
No thanks.
An all-seater 4,000 with all mod cons is all that is needed.

4000 is not enough. A big league match can sometimes get that. There needs to be some room fro growth. 6500-7000 seatch should be the minimum.

[Philosophizer]

4000 is not enough. A big league match can sometimes get that. There needs to be some room fro growth. 6500-7000 seatch should be the minimum.

Oh come on Dundalk's average gate for a league match is about 2.5k, and this is when they've been dominating for the past 2/3 yrs. Imagine what it would be if they were to be a mid/lower table team. Anything more than a nice 4-5k seater would be a total waste of money.

If they built anything in excess of 5k they ground would be mostly empty for the majority of matches, simi9lar to Tallaght which doesn't look great when they're a more empty seats than occupied.

[pineapple stu]

There's no point building 4000 capacity if UEFA Category 3 requires 4500 capacity anyway.

There's an argument that 5000 capacity would mean the ground would be sold out for bigger games - which would be good. People want more what they can't have.

[Philosophizer]

There's no point building 4000 capacity if UEFA Category 3 requires 4500 capacity anyway.

True, the sensible move for Dundalk would be go build/upgrade to a cat3 stadium.

Unless of course they partner with DKIT to build the shared cat4 stadium for the same price as building a cat3 purely for themselves.

[pineapple stu]

The sensible approach is to at least leave space to upgade to a category 4 (8,000 seats, and other items) if it ever comes to it.

Dundalk may spend all their money on a new ground, have a bad year or two and return to a mid-table side, or they may go on to dominate the league and be able to build up a Rosenborg-style club. If the latter, then there's no point moving ground again. At least be prepared for it, even if it isn't needed right now.

[oriel]

A category 3 stadium with 5k seats would be sufficient for Dundalk. That 5k figure was only broken once in the last 4 years, when 5.3k attended the final match of the 2015 season v Cork.

Cat 3 would also allow matches in Europe up to CL round 3, anything past that, fine to move the game to Tallaght.

[RathfarnhamHoop]

I say you could easily get a cat 4 stadium in if you knocked down the shed and rotated the pitch access could be a problem but not an impossible one to get around

[Yossarian]

Cat 3 would also allow matches in Europe up to CL round 3, anything past that, fine to move the game to Tallaght.

Tallaght isn't suitable for anything past round 3, that's why our game is in the Aviva.

[oriel]

Well I meant anything past CL Round 3, move it to Dublin (Aviva), I still say a 5k all seater would suit us fine for 90% of games.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Don't know why we can't consider a venue or ground renovation of the same size as turners cross or tallaght.

[oriel]

I was trying to locate a figure on how much Dundalk have earned so far in the Europe this season, I think the last fig I saw was 6.2m, I could be wrong.

Anyway another tiny 'windfall' today I see, Dlk won the fair play award for least points (bookings), another 4k, it never rains...........

[Charlie Darwin]

Make it £6.2004m then.

[ToberonaTornado]

€6.6m according to Mark McCadden today.

http://buzz.ie/the-cash-keeps-rolling-in-for-champs-dundalk/