UEFA category 3 stadiums

[nr637]

UEFA category 3 stadiums are required to host third round European qualifying games, and unfortunately for Dundalk, Oriel Park doesn't fulfil that requirement.

Tallaght, RDS and Aviva are category 3.

What about Turners Cross & Richmond Park?

I know it probably has a lot more health & safety standards, seating capacity & floodlight lux (SI unit of illuminance and luminous) levels.

But what other league grounds or alternative grounds in Ireland are category 3 and what does it take for a ground to reach this level?

Anyone :confused2:

[brendy_éire]

Thomond, Windsor and Ravenhill would be the only other ones, I'd guess.
Croke Park too, but obviously not for any of them foreign games.

[nigel-harps1954]

I doubt if any League of Ireland grounds meet category 3 outside of Tallaght which possibly only scrapes the criteria itself.
Turners Cross could meet the requirements, but does it have adequate VIP seating and media areas?

[El-Pietro]

Lots of little issues preventing Turners Cross meeting the criteria, things like Parking, Bus Access, Floodlights. I think we might just be able to hold a third round game but Playoffs would probably have to be somewhere else.

[El-Pietro]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_stadium_categories


Astadium must be category four to host games in the playoffs of the qualifying stage for the UEFA Champions League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League) or any game in the main competition.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_stadium_categories#cite_note-2) Category four is also required to host any game in the main competition of the UEFA Europa League (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Europa_League)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_stadium_categories#cite_note-3) or the UEFA European Football Championship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_European_Football_Championship).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_stadium_categories#cite_note-4)I think we must be close enough to meeting Category three going on that wiki page. Things like VIP Parking, Press Box Seats, Minimum number of TV studios would cause us difficulty. But there are some things we don't even have for Category 1 or 2.

[Dodge]

I think Turners Cross would make it. Sligo were allowed use the Showgrounds in 2011 with an early kick off time.

Tallaght (and the Aviva) are the only grounds in Dublin that qualify

[Kingdom]

Is there any alternative venue within the Cork region that would qualify? Would Musgrave Park be good enough since the "redevelopment" - I figure Flower Lodge isn't as close as TC would be at present.

[El-Pietro]

For Round 4 Musgrave would probably meet a lot of the requirements but wouldn't have the capacity. The lodge apparently has seated capacity of 8,000. I don't know if it meets the other requirements.

[Kingdom]

I didn't think the Lodge has UEFA type seating of 8000? Definitely has the GAA definition of 8000 seats (concrete and a painted number).

[El-Pietro]

I didn't think the Lodge has UEFA type seating of 8000? Definitely has the GAA definition of 8000 seats (concrete and a painted number).

Possibly, I've never been there.

[Nesta99]

I'd rather play in Windsor Park than Tallaght - can we cite security risk to UEFA to allow a move for our games, whatever number that might be, to be hosted by the Irish League?

[nigel-harps1954]

Surely Cork would be given special dispensation to use Turners Cross? Musgrave Park has only 3,500 seats and the only stadium nearby even remotely capable of hosting a game. Thomond Park is nearest after that, and would be a nightmare to have to travel to Limerick for home games.

As far as Dundalk are concerned, it's a bit of a nightmare all round.

[pineapple stu]

Special dispensation from whom?

Not UEFA's fault their ground is crap (even if it's the best in the league)

Clubs in Azerbaijan and the likes have had to play their group games in the capital because their own grounds aren't up to scratch I think. Don't see why Cork should be any different.

[Yossarian]

UEFA don't really do special dispensation in these cases. As far as I know clubs have to nominate the grounds in advance of the qualifying rounds that are suitable for the relevant rounds they may get to. I know we had already nominated Tallaght as the home ground for the 3rd round onwards.

[pineapple stu]

They shouldn't give dispensation either. Some of the requirements might be a bit corporate and not overly relevant supporter-wise, but then you look at a nice tidy ground like FH's last night and realise how far behind we are some smaller leagues. The bigger clubs in particular could benefit from getting their grounds up to standard.

Qabala played the Europa League groups last year out of Baku, 150 miles away. Debrecen played their CL and EL group campaigns in 2009-2011 in Budapest, also 150+ miles away. They've since built a new 20,000 seater ground (a bit excessive maybe as they only average 3000 at a game - I don't know what the capacity requirement is for group stage games?)

[ThePrisoner]

Had a quick look at the category 3 details and I don't think OP would qualify. For starters you need 4,500 seats and then there's a load about press facilities, VIP seats................., even a jacks for the ref with a seat. Whatever next?

As Shams played their EL groups games in Tallaght then it must have met all the requirements.

[nigel-harps1954]

There is special dispensation in UEFA rules for clubs regarding stadia in certain cases. Here's the detail from UEFA Champions League Guide 2016-17.

I'd assume Cork could come under 'financial hardship' given that League of Ireland clubs aren't exactly financially secure at any time, and potentially 'reasoned request'.
http://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=2439&stc=1

[paul_oshea]

They shouldn't give dispensation either. Some of the requirements might be a bit corporate and not overly relevant supporter-wise, but then you look at a nice tidy ground like FH's last night and realise how far behind we are some smaller leagues. The bigger clubs in particular could benefit from getting their grounds up to standard.

Qabala played the Europa League groups last year out of Baku, 150 miles away. Debrecen played their CL and EL group campaigns in 2009-2011 in Budapest, also 150+ miles away. They've since built a new 20,000 seater ground (a bit excessive maybe as they only average 3000 at a game - I don't know what the capacity requirement is for group stage games?)

Similar crowds to top LOI teams, but qualified for CL and EL grouup stages? Similarly Iceland team last night, couldn't even fill the ground, maybe 2000 there at most, yet they have a great stadium. I'm begining to wonder about the attendances argument in all of this. Do clubs have 5 year plans, 10 year plans etc?

[pineapple stu]

There is special dispensation in UEFA rules for clubs regarding stadia in certain cases. Here's the detail from UEFA Champions League Guide 2016-17.

I'd assume Cork could come under 'financial hardship' given that League of Ireland clubs aren't exactly financially secure at any time, and potentially 'reasoned request'.
Why would Cork come under "financial hardship"? Azerbaijan and Hungary are hardly wealthy countries. (Actually, Azerbaijan might be with its oil - but Hungary still stands)

LoI grounds are crap; stop making excuses for them.

[ThePrisoner]

Part of the problem with the grounds is the fact that out of the 12 PL clubs, only one actually owns their ground - St Pat's and it's mortgaged in the sum of €22m (clearly stated in the filed accounts for the club and another group company). So there is no incentive to upgrade the grounds.

Three clubs have control of their grounds, Longford through a separate guarantee company, Sligo through the trustees and in the case of Finn H the fixed assets note to the audited accounts details three different leasehold properties. As to what the three relate to is not detailed but a guess would be the new stadium under construction, Finn Park and another property, but specified as leasehold and therefore not owned. However, the terms and conditions of the various leases may well make some of all of the properties 'as good as owned'.

In the FD I would guess UCD (the college and not the club) own the Bowl and I've no idea on the ownership of the grounds in Cabinteely. The other six clubs do not own their grounds.

[pineapple stu]

Stradbrook is presumably owned by Blackrock College Rugby club?

[gael353]

id like to see the category listing for Thomond Park. I don't believe for one second that the stands are anyway safe due to their height and lack of any safety railings

[El-Pietro]

I love the Cross. nights like tonight sre exactly why but were sort of screwed. its so tight that we could never meet all the non supporter stuff uefa look for. TX needs improvements for away fans. but its as close to perfect fot us as you could imagine otherwise. but vip seats, parking, media etc Re impossible. so long term we probably need a new home.

[ger121]

Saw a couple of people post that FHs ground was of a good standard and from the pictures it seems that way. What category would theirs be? You'd also really have to ask the question, if Iceland can build decent stadia, why can't we? Always seems to be done piece meal here and even when done, not up to UEFA standards for later rounds.

[paul_oshea]

It would be good if clubs could have their grounds owned by the council. Long leased, but council owned, then any upgrades required or needing grants would go through the cuoncil and joint funding could be applied for. It also means owners can use them as their own playthings, and guarantees the longevity of the grounds.

I definitely think there is a change in approach required. Not every club will be able to do this, but the likes of Cork should certainly be able have a decent 6-10k stadium with required category for competing at the later qualifying rounds of UEFA competitions.

Have to say though Turners Cross is a lovely compact stadium, which would kinda ruin it by upgrading/changing things around - even if they had the space.

[pineapple stu]

FH played Genk in the 2013/14 Europa League play-off round (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_UEFA_Europa_League_qualifying_phas e_and_play-off_round#FH_v_Genk) in the same ground as they played Dundalk on Wednesday - so presumably category 4 in that case.

[Dodge]

Saw a couple of people post that FHs ground was of a good standard and from the pictures it seems that way. What category would theirs be? You'd also really have to ask the question, if Iceland can build decent stadia, why can't we? Always seems to be done piece meal here and even when done, not up to UEFA standards for later rounds.

It isn't universal that Icelandic grounds are good. Pats played away to IBV twice. One in Reykjavik as their own ground wasn't deemed good enough. Next year it was played at home. but everyone who went said it wouldn't be allowed in our league, never mind UEFA

[ger121]

It isn't universal that Icelandic grounds are good. Pats played away to IBV twice. One in Reykjavik as their own ground wasn't deemed good enough. Next year it was played at home. but everyone who went said it wouldn't be allowed in our league, never mind UEFA

Been to Iceland myself and the ground was of a poor standard. However their top sides have decent grounds but ours don't. PS said above that FH would appear to be a Category 4 Stadium. I'm sure it is not the only one.

We just don't do investment into sporting infrastructure well in Ireland. It's either done in patches, isolation or not at all. We've more field sport stadia than you can shake a stick at but the vast majority are at best, in adequate.

Always plans here to do this and that but they largely remain that, plans!

[pineapple stu]

We just don't do investment into sporting infrastructure well in Ireland. It's either done in patches, isolation or not at all.
This is it. It's criminal that Shels, Drogheda, Bohs and Derry, for all the money they ****ed away in the 2000s, did very little to upgrade their grounds. Between them, since 2000, they've added the Jodi Stand, the Lego Stand in Tolka and that's about it? Then you've the problems with Dundalk not being able to upgrade it seems. Cork in fairness have done a lot of work to Turner's Cross and turned it into a very nice ground, but obviously it's still sub-par.

[vinnie]

Had a quick look at the category 3 details and I don't think OP would qualify. For starters you need 4,500 seats and then there's a load about press facilities, VIP seats................., even a jacks for the ref with a seat. Whatever next?

As Shams played their EL groups games in Tallaght then it must have met all the requirements.

Rovers had to put in a temporary Stand for the Group games though or it wouldn't have met the standard

[White Horse]

Saw a couple of people post that FHs ground was of a good standard and from the pictures it seems that way.

They have a lovely ground. The main stand has the level of facilities you would only get in the Aviva.

However, it was built and paid for by the local municipal authority.

The ground is part of a very large athletic complex, completely funded by government.

On the day of the game, we toured the entire complex in the morning and it is streets ahead of anything we do in Ireland.

[SalvadorSanchez]

We are drowning in sports infrastructure in this country but the issue is we have huge quantity and we have low quality in general.
We also have diversity, politics and sports/competition structures that mean most of our stadia are not inter-operable and are idle / under used far too much... We also have a common feeling of entitlement to have a ground on every crossroads and village so the Govt. is being tapped all them time between GAA, FAI, IRFU, Colleges, Schools etc. the pot is being spread thin and it's delivering very bad value for money..
Regarding the LOI there needs to be some serious investment in getting a few of the Prem. League grounds up to standard and then helping the 1st Div clubs improve over time, Dalyer needs to be redeveloped, Tallaght finished, apart from that I think Drogs, Bray and Wexford need help...
I'd love to see a few proper grounds being built to secure the future of clubs into the future... cant expect people to hand over hard earned money to go into kips... putting people in kips doesn't encourage good behaviour either..
I see the GAA are making noises about a stadium on the M50 to serve Meath, Louth, Kildare and Wicklow (I think) it's not a bad idea and it uses money efficiently... We need some leadership (Heaven help us) to sort this out

[ThePrisoner]

This is it. It's criminal that Shels, Drogheda, Bohs and Derry, for all the money they ****ed away in the 2000s, did very little to upgrade their grounds. Between them, since 2000, they've added the Jodi Stand, the Lego Stand in Tolka and that's about it? Then you've the problems with Dundalk not being able to upgrade it seems. Cork in fairness have done a lot of work to Turner's Cross and turned it into a very nice ground, but obviously it's still sub-par.

You're missing the point. If you were living in a rented property would you spend your hard earned money renovating the landlord's property and pay rent as well? Same principle applies here. Well at least in my mind.

Shels: Tolka Park is owned by DCC but the lease is held by a third party. Apparently DCC want Shels to move to Dalymount and they take back the lease.

Drogheda: United Park owned by the FAI. Enough said.

Bohs: Lost the run of themselves and now owned by DCC.

Derry: Owned by the local council and to be redeveloped.

Dundalk: Owned by the Casey family. Will be interesting to see what happens with the lease and will there be any renovations carried out.

Cork: owned and developed by the Munster FA. Cork are just paying tenants.

In general what sees to happen is a club is successful for a period, money is generated and then spent/wasted on chasing success. The only exception in recent years is the Showgrounds. But then ownership is not a problem for the Bo'R. They sorted it out 40 years ago.

[ThePrisoner]

Rovers had to put in a temporary Stand for the Group games though or it wouldn't have met the standard

A question. Why did you need the temporary seats? Was it a category 4 requirement for the group games - 8,000 seats? Category 3 is 4,500 seats.

[pineapple stu]

You're missing the point. If you were living in a rented property would you spend your hard earned money renovating the landlord's property and pay rent as well? Same principle applies here. Well at least in my mind.
So landlord and club sit down and arrange something of mutual benefit.

Some of the council rents are going to be nominal too. Wasn't it Waterford that were getting their ground for at most a grand a year? So hardly holding them back developing their ground (and in fairness, someone's added a new stand recently)

I still think the clubs mentioned should have had a plan for ground improvements years ago, when they were flashing the cash. Drogheda paying thousands to Ibrahima Thiam and they couldn't clean their jacks like. That's a nonsense priority.

[El-Pietro]

I think we pay the most for our ground and that shows in the development of the stadium over the past 15-20 years.

[ThePrisoner]

So landlord and club sit down and arrange something of mutual benefit.

Some of the council rents are going to be nominal too. Wasn't it Waterford that were getting their ground for at most a grand a year? So hardly holding them back developing their ground (and in fairness, someone's added a new stand recently)

I still think the clubs mentioned should have had a plan for ground improvements years ago, when they were flashing the cash. Drogheda paying thousands to Ibrahima Thiam and they couldn't clean their jacks like. That's a nonsense priority.

You have to apply a bit commercial reality to this. Take Drogheda, would you fancy trying to deal with the FAI? Go out, raise a load of money and pump it into United Park. For what? You'll never own the place and no doubt you'll have security of tenancy problems down the road when the clubs gets into difficulty, as all clubs do every so often.

I don't know what rent Waterford are paying but it's clear from their accounts that they have not spent one € on the RSG. And its not their ground.

Your reference to the 'jacks' is a fair point and is a H&S matter if nothing else.

All these arguments about developing grounds always comes back to money or rather the lack of it within the LOI and the ability to generate sufficient amounts.

And when you're dealing with politicians it's all about votes. There's more votes in redeveloping Pairc Ui Chaoimh than United Park. it's known as cost/vote/benefit analysis.

[ThePrisoner]

I think we pay the most for our ground and that shows in the development of the stadium over the past 15-20 years.

I was told the rent figure by a committee member of the MFA about three years ago and it would go nowhere near the cost of the development gone into TX. That was a conversation I had with an in-law of a very good mate.


And I'm not bitching, I firmly believe that in order for the LOI to develop then LOI supporters have to start looking at the financials of their club, understand them and work within the constraints to develop the club and the LOI.

[Yossarian]

A question. Why did you need the temporary seats? Was it a category 4 requirement for the group games - 8,000 seats? Category 3 is 4,500 seats.

Yes it's 8,000 min capacity for a Cat 4 stadium. I assume Tallaght passes all the other requirements aswell?

[paul_oshea]

Slow day at work, I have been going around a few clubs via wiki, who have rented from their municipality or government. All seem to be taking the approach, at a cheap cost. I'll do up the list when I get time, but here is Partizni who are also in the 3rd round of the CL:
"On 9 March 2016, the Albanian government agreed to a 99-year, €1 lease of the 37,000m2 Military Base 4030, located on Myslym Keta Road on the outskirts of Tiranë, which is where Partizani will build their new training complex as well as their proposed 4,500 seater stadium"

[ger121]

They have a lovely ground. The main stand has the level of facilities you would only get in the Aviva.

However, it was built and paid for by the local municipal authority.

The ground is part of a very large athletic complex, completely funded by government.

On the day of the game, we toured the entire complex in the morning and it is streets ahead of anything we do in Ireland.

Was reading the wiki page on the campus. Some excellent facilities and really puts us to shame.

[vinnie]

A question. Why did you need the temporary seats? Was it a category 4 requirement for the group games - 8,000 seats? Category 3 is 4,500 seats.

Yep, they were needed to host the group games, if they weren't put in the only option was Landsdowne Road

[fionnsci]

Yep, they were needed to host the group games, if they weren't put in the only option was Landsdowne Road

Was the RDS not an option? I can anticipate problems with sharing with Leinster but the pitch could be changed between the Thursday and Friday if Leinster had a home Friday game - it's been done in the Aviva and Croker I think.

I far prefered the RDS Pat's European games to the ones in Tallaght. Much better atmosphere, much cosier. I'd like for Dundalk to choose it over Tallaght if they make the group stage for that reason, it's not too far from Lansdowne Road train station which has trains running to Dundalk I believe. Of course there could be a variety of other factors which make Tallaght more appealing for other reasons.

[KianD]

Was the RDS not an option? I can anticipate problems with sharing with Leinster but the pitch could be changed between the Thursday and Friday if Leinster had a home Friday game - it's been done in the Aviva and Croker I think.

Cost of a relay that would otherwise not be required at another venue is a huge consideration, even with the extra cash around for advancing now.

[redobit]

In general what sees to happen is a club is successful for a period, money is generated and then spent/wasted on chasing success. The only exception in recent years is the Showgrounds. But then ownership is not a problem for the Bo'R. They sorted it out 40 years ago.

Over 1 million invested in the Showgrounds in last 5 or 6 years.

[Nesta99]

Over 1 million invested in the Showgrounds in last 5 or 6 years.

Believe it or not similar was spent on Oriel Park!!

[Kingdom]

Cost of a relay that would otherwise not be required at another venue is a huge consideration, even with the extra cash around for advancing now.

Surely he meant the markings and the goals, rather than the actual sod?

[redobit]

Believe it or not similar was spent on Oriel Park!!

Really. Where has gone to. The Showgrounds has somthing to show for its money - new seated stand, new 4G astro pitch, new CL standard grass pitch, 2 six a side grass pitches,tarmac around the ground, etc.

What has Oriel had done? (genuine question) and dont get me started on that grass hill behind the goals.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Tbh we can only go on what the previous owner said it cost (it was his company that perform the renovations) but yeah the stand was rekitted out to include the front offices, that glass perspex outside stuff on thr stand was put in, the old shed being moved closer to accomdate the white elephant, ground works tarmac of the home and then the later away entrance. From recollection this happened around 2008 or 9. The banded out refit cost 1m.

[colonelwest]

Really. Where has gone to. The Showgrounds has somthing to show for its money - new seated stand, new 4G astro pitch, new CL standard grass pitch, 2 six a side grass pitches,tarmac around the ground, etc.

What has Oriel had done? (genuine question) and dont get me started on that grass hill behind the goals.

Off the top of my head the relaying/ tarmaccing of the entrance and the side entrance into the away end, new board room on top of the bar beside the away end, the upgrade works for the first season we were back in europe getting all the seats in and remedial work done on the carrick road end and 5 min terrace end (a lot of those seats were repurposed from Croker and Landsdowne at the time and are banjaxed now again), the dressing rooms/ facilities inside the main stand and then the roof/ windows on the main stand had to be redone/ refurbished too. That's not getting into Gerrys Entertainment Centre that's now lying idle or the newer version of the pitch which is a different conversation/ can of worms that's been done to death at this stage.

The last few years we're limited to general maintanence and upkeep with the lease situation with the previous owner of the club. I did a mock up a couple of years ago that did the rounds after it was nicked off orielweb of what the stadium would look like if we put in a proper terrace/ stand coming off the YDC that wrapped the whole way around to the main stand, probably could have done it with the money thats been spent on keeping the place barely ticking over at this stage but for the lease situation.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tYaOOv2B59U/VQXIOehxkII/AAAAAAAABr8/6vG4-d-gBbk/s1600/Oriel%2BPArk.jpg