Stephen Henderson on the state of Irish football

[nigel-harps1954]

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/league-of-ireland-boss-goes-on-epic-rant-about-irish-football-culture/84666

Posted this on the League of Ireland forum, but equally as topical here. What's the thoughts?

[snowball]

"we have a Dutch man with no clue of Irish culture dictating a plan not suited to our race"

What on earth is he on about?

Embarrassing stuff.

[nigel-harps1954]

I didn't quite get that bit either about the race. Not sure what he's trying to say there.

I agree though with the fundamental point, although he goes on about it in a backwards way.

[tetsujin1979]

don't get the bit about only passing his A license when he pretended to care about what he was being told. Isn't the curriculum set by UEFA, or FIFA, not the FAI?

[Stuttgart88]

I'm pretty sure Dokter has a very good idea of Irish football, its culture, its politics and its obstacles to progress. Unfair to single him out.

Of the Irish-born players in the side, most came through the schoolboy system and/or the LOI (mostly "or"). The key as I always argue is to join up the whole structure but I consistently feel too many vested interests don't want this, and JD's position at the helm is strengthened by appeasing everyone whose interests conflict with the LOI's. The LOI itself isn't a strong stakeholder.

The structure of the FAI itself needs addressing. The Council members (the guys who vote at AGM) are no longer representative of the modern game. I don't see why, for example, the Defence Forces, should have a vote.

We need fewer and more up to date Council members and Non-Exec representation at Board equivalent. We need a President who is proactive, vocal and visible not just on a cushy pre-retirement number. We need a less authoritarian CEO with seats on fewer important committees and with less influence on who gets funding (because of the obvious conflicts of interest that arise).

We need to build on this now and make further inroads into the political and corporate sphere, each important for funding and facilities.

[Stuttgart88]

The next AGM will be telling. We really need a Bretton Woods style conference of all key stakeholders wiping the slate clean and burying old prejudices to forge a strong self-determined future. It sounds like a Gerry Adams / Sylvio Berlusconi / Boris Johnson soundbite but if I can steal the latter charlatan's slogan "Let's Take Control" we can seize this moment.

[nigel-harps1954]

The next AGM will be telling. We really need a Bretton Woods style conference of all key stakeholders wiping the slate clean and burying old prejudices to forge a strong self-determined future. It sounds like a Gerry Adams / Sylvio Berlusconi / Boris Johnson soundbite but if I can steal the latter charlatan's slogan "Let's Take Control" we can seize this moment.

Unfortunately, we're more likely to see 30,000 seater stadiums built in every part of the country than any proper coherent structure put to the FAI and football from top to bottom in Ireland.

[Eminence Grise]

don't get the bit about only passing his A license when he pretended to care about what he was being told. Isn't the curriculum set by UEFA, or FIFA, not the FAI?

'So Mr Henderson, the earth is ...?'
'Flat.'
'Mmm, not quite. Guess again.'
'Flat.'
'Mmm, I think you need to show you care more for facts.
'Round.'
'Technically it's an oblate spheroid, but close enough. Have a badge.'
'Thanks. It's still flat.'

[Olé Olé]

Am I being unfair in suggesting that this tirade would have been completely bottled up if his son was in the Ireland squad? He probably deserves to be closer to it than he is and someone has mentioned before he's had a disagreement with Seamus McDonagh. People are on a high and junior isn't involved...

[nigel-harps1954]

Am I being unfair in suggesting that this tirade would have been completely bottled up if his son was in the Ireland squad? He probably deserves to be closer to it than he is and someone has mentioned before he's had a disagreement with Seamus McDonagh. People are on a high and junior isn't involved...

Doubt it. Henderson has been giving out about the state of Irish football and the lack of direction from the FAI for years now.

[Olé Olé]

Doubt it. Henderson has been giving out about the state of Irish football and the lack of direction from the FAI for years now.

Yeah, true. Interesting timing though.

[nigel-harps1954]

Yeah, true. Interesting timing though.

I think the timing is more down to the lack of interest, attention, attendances, and general disinterest in the full round of fixtures that took place on Friday past.

I haven't completed a round up of attendances yet for the past couple of weeks and compared them properly to previous seasons, but interest in the league is definitely down this year right across the board and attendances have suffered. Clubs are suffering badly this season and nobody in the FAI seems to give a toss.

[Olé Olé]

I think the timing is more down to the lack of interest, attention, attendances, and general disinterest in the full round of fixtures that took place on Friday past.

I haven't completed a round up of attendances yet for the past couple of weeks and compared them properly to previous seasons, but interest in the league is definitely down this year right across the board and attendances have suffered. Clubs are suffering badly this season and nobody in the FAI seems to give a toss.

Fair enough but I'm from Kerry so I haven't been deemed worthy of interest, attention, attendances, or general disinterest.

[Metrostars]

So he complains about the bandwagon fans not supporting LOI and the FAI with no plan. Great. So what is his plan? This isn't like Field of Dreams, build it and they will come.

[nigel-harps1954]

So he complains about the bandwagon fans not supporting LOI and the FAI with no plan. Great. So what is his plan? This isn't like Field of Dreams, build it and they will come.

Did you actually read what he said?

[ForzaHoop]

In fairness he is correct in what he says, the FAI have made millions from the adventure and not one penny will be reinvested into the league, they will use to repay Aviva debt
If the FAI don't invest the league will never improve and we may never produce home grown talent like Long, Wes etc

[tetsujin1979]

there's no evidence anywhere on where the money will be spent

[davidatrb]

I'm not sure if the FAI is the answer to the problems within the League. If I was the FAI I would think long about investing money in the League after watching a string of clubs squander small fortunes and go bust.

I think the League and the clubs have to step up themselves and take their destiny into their own hands. This is in effect what the Premier League did in the early 90's.



At the close of the 1991 season, a proposal was tabled for the establishment of a new league that would bring more money into the game overall. The Founder Members Agreement, signed on 17 July 1991 by the game's top-flight clubs, established the basic principles for setting up the FA Premier League.[17] The newly formed top division would have commercial independence from The Football Association and the Football League, giving the FA Premier League licence to negotiate its own broadcast and sponsorship agreements. The argument given at the time was that the extra income would allow English clubs to compete with teams across Europe.[12]

[nigel-harps1954]

The problems in Irish football stretch far beyond the strength of the League of Ireland.

Football in this country, top to bottom, is wrong.

[Stuttgart88]

In my opinion the separation of the EPL from the FA was a disaster for English football. The FA thought they had pulled off a coup by kicking the Football League into touch, which was the FA's objective all along. But they unleashed a monster in the EPL. Nobody foresaw how much money would come into the game and in one fell swoop the FA disempowered themselves and gave the big clubs effective autonomy. The national body for football lost control of the top tier of the game and has suffered ever since.

For me Irish football needs to be more joined up, not less so.

I think Nigel is OTT. There are good parts and bad parts to Irish football.

[zander1983]

The problems in Irish football stretch far beyond the strength of the League of Ireland.

Football in this country, top to bottom, is wrong.

Has building an academy, like Clairefontaine, ever been mooted? Tyrone GAA have built a fantastic one for just 6.7m

[davidatrb]

I take the point about control. But the league and clubs need to have a bit more responsibility and be a bit more accountable for the state that they are in.

Too many excuses trying to blame the FAI, the barstoolers, the GAA, the Premier League.

I know that alot of ppl dedicate their lives to their clubs. Maybe it just needs to be more directed and smarter. Long term instead of short term.

It's really not an easy solution. Investment always helps but needs to be directed to areas that will give long term value.

Anyway well done to St pats tonight - doing it themselves.

[Stuttgart88]

Anyone with an interest in this stuff simply must buy the UK Times this morning and read the football supplement.

Henry Winter summarises his book on why England perpetually fail, including the star system which cocoons players and removes them from real life at a young age, the academy system, how the game lacks genuinely inspirational coaches.

Another separate column talks about how the govt. is threatening to pull its £30mm annual funding to the FA unless it changes its antiquated governance structures. Like I was saying above about the FAI, its voting council is no longer representative of the game, with only minimal representation of the professional game, women and minorities, yet some members have been on the council since the 1960s.

The inside back page is a case study on Poland, how their domestic game crumbled after the collapse of communism and became a victim of lack of investment, hooliganism, match fixing. Their talent identification system was non-existent. Lewandowski was released by Legia Warsaw at 16 and the B-bloke (Jakub at Dortmund, I won't even try to spell his name!) was also missed. Podolski didn't see the point in playing for Poland as it was a shambles. Only EU membership allowed their players a path to the top, but even then, one of their current midfielders turned down a pro contract in France to stay at home for one more year to learn French before going to Bordeaux where he thrived. Now the Polish FA is implementing a national talent identification and coaching system.

It's all a brilliant read and goes over so much of what is talked about here, and down the years.

Domestic league
Developing good but also smart and grounded players
Governance
Public funding
Coaching, including inspirational coaches from the ex-player ranks
Preparedness to look to continental Europe

All relevant and probably all necessary but none by itself a sufficient factor.

--------

Anyway, I got an email blast from the FAI advertising Rovers' Europa League match tonight.

I'm sure the LOI contingent in the Euros squad would happily put together a TV advertisement with the FAI asking the best fans in the world to come to a LOI game, linking the success of the clubs to future successful finals.

[davidatrb]

Henry Winter summarises his book on why England perpetually fail, including the star system which cocoons players and removes them from real life at a young age, the academy system, how the game lacks genuinely inspirational coaches.



But there is something very specific about how they fail. They are great in qualifying and then on the big stage they don't achieve their potential. It's not that they aren't producing talent (compare their players to ours, Iceland's or most other teams, clearly they are doing something right) it is more that they freeze on the big stage (because they are cocooned from reality they can't handle pressure? - I'm not buying it because they face similar pressure in CL games, title and relegation fights...).

Ppl will say qualifying for them (always a top seed) is easy they don't play the big teams and that's true but Iceland and Slovakia are hardly top tier teams against who they have struggled this time around.

It could be just poor luck.

For years Spain's under achievement in the euros and world cups was put down to a divided nation, some how Galicians or Basques didn't want to give their all for Spain who I guess they didn't identify with. Now nothing much has changed politically in Spain but the team has gone and won 2 euros and a World Cup in the last 10 years.

Ppl always look for a reason but sometimes there is none other than bad luck in a knock out tournament.

Imagine a team so good that they are 80% probability (1/4 odds on favourite) to beat any other team put in front of them. For that team to win 4 rounds (round of 16, quarters, semis and final) all in a row is .8^4 ~= 40% chance of winning a knock out competition like the euros or World Cup.... Sometimes it's just not your day and it really hurts when you have to wait 4 years for your next shot....

[Stuttgart88]

I think poor management and poor selection played a part. Andy Carroll would have buried that late Vardy headed chance.

[osarusan]

But there is something very specific about how they fail. They are great in qualifying and then on the big stage they don't achieve their potential. It's not that they aren't producing talent (compare their players to ours, Iceland's or most other teams, clearly they are doing something right) it is more that they freeze on the big stage (because they are cocooned from reality they can't handle pressure? - I'm not buying it because they face similar pressure in CL games, title and relegation fights...).


I think it is an issue of tactical ability/awareness.

EPL players are quite good technically, but I'm not so sure about tactically. It's a league that's always played at a fast pace, and they're willing to give the ball away easily enough as they know the opposition will give it back to them easily too.

This high-paced play, combined with their technical ability means that they can beat decent teams (club and country), but they tend to lose to teams who are good at keeping the ball. The attitude of 'impose our play on the opposition and make them play our game' goes so far but only goes so far, and when the opposition is good enough to deal with it, there often isn't any effective plan B.

Tactically also, there is less guile about them than other countries. I don't know if it's a coaching issue or goes deeper into footballing culture, but it's there. England were posed a defensive puzzle by Iceland the other night for at least an hour, and they never even came close to unlocking it - I think it is much less likely that a German, Italian, or Spanish team would fail in the same way.

They tried to play possession football this time, but it seemed a bit alien to them, and there was no discernible plan. Whether Hodgson is/was trying to change how they play but the players are slow to get there, i don't know.

I think that Irish football is the same except of lower quality, and without the lofty expectations.

[zander1983]

I'm pretty sure Dokter has a very good idea of Irish football, its culture, its politics and its obstacles to progress. Unfair to single him out.

Of the Irish-born players in the side, most came through the schoolboy system and/or the LOI (mostly "or"). The key as I always argue is to join up the whole structure but I consistently feel too many vested interests don't want this, and JD's position at the helm is strengthened by appeasing everyone whose interests conflict with the LOI's. The LOI itself isn't a strong stakeholder.

The structure of the FAI itself needs addressing. The Council members (the guys who vote at AGM) are no longer representative of the modern game. I don't see why, for example, the Defence Forces, should have a vote.

We need fewer and more up to date Council members and Non-Exec representation at Board equivalent. We need a President who is proactive, vocal and visible not just on a cushy pre-retirement number. We need a less authoritarian CEO with seats on fewer important committees and with less influence on who gets funding (because of the obvious conflicts of interest that arise).

We need to build on this now and make further inroads into the political and corporate sphere, each important for funding and facilities.

When you hear the terms councils, non-exec representatives, president, CEO, committees etc in relation to a sports organization, you know something is seriously seriously wrong. I do not think a corporate structure should be applied to a sports organization. A sports organization is supposed to serve the public good - a corporation only serves to self-preserve and make money. The corporate structure of the FAI has meant we've ended up with a CEO with little or zero interest in football pocketing extraordinary wages while 10, 11, and 12 year old football obsessed kids have to fend for themselves. It is an absolute disgrace. We need a new football association, one with a flat structure. The FAI is beyond repair.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't agree with the first few sentences above.

All organisations need mechanisms to be held accountable to its key stakeholders, and all sports organisations need effective ways of formulating and implement strategy. In corporations this mostly relates to turning a profit but in a sports organisation the end goal is to fulfil the organisation's goals - which should mostly relate to development and promotion of the sport. Regardless of the purpose of an organisation, it must be set up in a way that achieves its goals.

The role of Council is to make sure the concerns and interests of football's stakeholders are heard. Council is the equivalent of corporate shareholders to a large extent. The problem is that Council no longer is made up of the game's key stakeholders, it's made up of people and factions that were relevant 50 years ago.

I have no problem with the FAI having a CEO, but the CEO needs to be held accountable. He/she also needs to be effective in aligning the interests of the key factions.

Committees are necessary in all sports clubs and bodies.

I started a separate thread a few years ago about the governance of the FAI. It doesn't work, but that's not to say it shouldn't have a governance structure that meets good-practice standards in both corporate and large sports organisations.

[nr637]

Anyone got a link to the Stephen Henderson rant on the state of Irish football ! Please N

[DeLorean]

This is over a week old but might fit in well here. A preview for the Linfield v Cork City game that touched on the usual issues. Alan Smith is an Irish guy writing for The Guardian, probably nothing too major in it but the likes of CD might pick some holes if there are any.

Europa League season opens with cross-border showdown in Ireland (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/30/europa-league-season-linfield-cork-city)

[Stuttgart88]

I think it is an issue of tactical ability/awareness.

EPL players are quite good technically, but I'm not so sure about tactically. It's a league that's always played at a fast pace, and they're willing to give the ball away easily enough as they know the opposition will give it back to them easily too.

This high-paced play, combined with their technical ability means that they can beat decent teams (club and country), but they tend to lose to teams who are good at keeping the ball. The attitude of 'impose our play on the opposition and make them play our game' goes so far but only goes so far, and when the opposition is good enough to deal with it, there often isn't any effective plan B.

Tactically also, there is less guile about them than other countries. I don't know if it's a coaching issue or goes deeper into footballing culture, but it's there. England were posed a defensive puzzle by Iceland the other night for at least an hour, and they never even came close to unlocking it - I think it is much less likely that a German, Italian, or Spanish team would fail in the same way.

They tried to play possession football this time, but it seemed a bit alien to them, and there was no discernible plan. Whether Hodgson is/was trying to change how they play but the players are slow to get there, i don't know.

I think that Irish football is the same except of lower quality, and without the lofty expectations.im not sure there's an answer. England reminded me of Arsenal who I watch regularly. Lots of possession but struggled to break down a team who put people behind the ball and who then mugged them they lost concentration.

Who plays for Arsenal? French, Spanish, German and Chilean serial winners at international level. The same players we laud playing for their countries.

In the overall scheme of things England failed to prepare for a routine long throw, their good keeper made a ****** of an OK shot, their manager somehow saw fit to play Kane and Vardy in a 433 abomination and didn't have the courage to pick a big no 9 who would probably be picked by Germany.

For the life of my I can't understand how a player like Harry Kane who is lethal in the EPL couldn't even control the ball against Iceland.

There a lot of "intellectualisation" of England's problems. It used to be ball retention, now it's not doing anything with a monopoly of possession.

It just makes me think that maybe we talk a bit too much sh1te about our own game too!

Lots of countries with better football structures, bigger populations, big professional leagues etc totally bombed in Euro 2016, including some notable countries who didn't even qualify.

I'm not saying I don't believe in doing things properly, but doing things properly seems to be an insufficient condition for success.

[bennocelt]

Or maybe football isnt really that good these days?