View Full Version : Welsh looking to copy the Eircom League.
See here (http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/sport/football/league/tm_objectid=15075376&method=full&siteid=50142&headline=hunter-gets-behind-summer-campaign-name_page.html) for more details.
Since switching to a summer league, Irish football attendances have improved,
Grand, apart from the fact that the opposite is true.
TG
Slash/ED
17/01/2005, 1:37 PM
The opposiate is not true. Attendences were up alot in the first season and while they decreased in the second season they were still as good if not better than in the days of winter football imo. It certinaly hasn't seen a reduction in attendences.
MariborKev
17/01/2005, 1:54 PM
It certainly has for us, and the board have said as much.
In terms of travelling to away games, I reckon that with a few exceptions the same could be said
I see Jimmy Mcgeough is calling for change in the Irish League as well. see here (http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/sport/story.jsp?story=601796)
pineapple stu
17/01/2005, 2:06 PM
Didn't the league issue a brief overview of the attendances noting that the lowest crowds were in July and August? Seems fairly damning.
I wonder how much up attendances were in 2003. If there's one thing the attendances thread showed, it's that no-one really had much of an idea about attendances across the league... I certainly didn't think they were up a lot - ours were down a lot, though partly to do with being bottom of the league for the whole season. Unfortunately, with no proper stats, we'll never really know...
Slash/ED
17/01/2005, 2:08 PM
Didn't the league issue a brief overview of the attendances noting that the lowest crowds were in July and August? Seems fairly damning.
Well I'd imagine mid season is always the worst for attendences, at the start of the season everybody goes to games then attendences tail off for a bit before the end when it starts getting dramatic the crowds reach their peak, I'd imagine that's how it works for every league at any date.
pineapple stu
17/01/2005, 2:10 PM
Maybe, but it has to be said too that Bank Holidays were particularly bad for attendances. Euro 2004 hit hard as well, and summer holidays...
Overall, I'd still say that the general comment about Irish football attendances improving is more yer man wanting to believe it than him having any hard facts.
Attendances during the summer months were brutal at Harps despite having one of our best runs in Div 1. The crowds came back strongly once the season moved into the autumn. This is fact.
Summer football matches on long evenings, in good weather have been disasterous for attendances, particularly in provincial areas. Many people will not finish work early enough on a Friday while are making use of their weekends with family or outdoor work. This is the casual fan wea re talking about, not the hardcore who would be there if games were on at 11.00am on a Monday!!
Reports we have heard from our league rep would indicate that the story is very similar at most other clubs. I think that the general consensus is that most clubs were down up to 20% in the first full summer season compared to the last winter season.
I'm not arguing against summer football, playing conditions and european results (although this affects only 4 teams from 22) have improved, but it is a myth that it has in any way helped attendances.
TG
Longfordian
17/01/2005, 4:01 PM
Correct, our crowds are significantly down on winter football, many people in rural areas work long hours in summer time and can't take the time off to come in for matches
The opposiate is not true. Attendences were up alot in the first season and while they decreased in the second season they were still as good if not better than in the days of winter football imo. It certinaly hasn't seen a reduction in attendences.
Anyhow, how would a Shels fan notice attendances getting worse....you need to have a crowd to begin with..... :p :D :D :D
sorry couldn't resist...
sullanefc
17/01/2005, 4:28 PM
It may have affected attendances at some clubs but I don't think anyone can argue that summer football is a bad thing. No more waterlogged pitches and better European results (and if this only affects 4 from 22 teams, then surely the rest of the league has to raise standards to match these 4 teams). I think in the bigger picture, summer football is a good thing.
It may have affected attendances at some clubs but I don't think anyone can argue that summer football is a bad thing. No more waterlogged pitches and better European results (and if this only affects 4 from 22 teams, then surely the rest of the league has to raise standards to match these 4 teams). I think in the bigger picture, summer football is a good thing.
As I said it has many positives and is unlikely to be changed any time soon.
However, the benefit to european form can only ever help 4 teams, unless we get some more European places, the counter argument is that the success of these 4 teams does have knock on benefits for the league as a whole.
However, if you are a team sitting at the lower end of Div 1, light years from ever getting into Europe its hard to see how these benefits counter balance your gates being down 20% in the summer.
What is needed is more improvements in facilities and playing standards combined with much better marketing of the league to improve attendances in general, but it is a myth to say that one of the benefits of summer football is improved attendances like the Welsh article claims.
TG
harpskid
17/01/2005, 6:27 PM
Reports we have heard from our league rep would indicate that the story is very similar at most other clubs.
If Derek said it, it must be true :D
paudie
18/01/2005, 1:07 PM
Even if attendances generally seem to be down (based only on guesswork but probably accurate) I still think summer football is a good thing overrall.
Bank holidays and summer holidays don't stop big crowds going to GAA matches.
Therefore the problem not when the games are being played but with the way the league and the clubs are viewed by the public.
The improvement in pitches and European results are positives that can't be ignored and in the long term should help to attract more spectators.
Given the current weather I'm bloody glad I'm not wondering about whether City's next game will be postponed or not.
Part of the problem with the Bank Holidays, is where the games are scheduled. For example the Monday night, rather than the Monday afternoon.
Personally, I find it a lot harder to get away for a friday night in the summer than I do in the winter, and it's only going to get harder....
dcfcsteve
18/01/2005, 2:00 PM
The key to increasing crowds at Eircom League games (and more so Welsh games) is not in itself simply switching from Winter to Summer football. That's akin to merely rearranging the seats on the Titanic. Summer football alone won't save our league.
Seasonal weather is a handy excuse and an easy issue for the FAI to address in attempting to tackle a very complicated problem - namely, the poor appeal of Irish club football. Irish people would turn out in their droves in a force nine gale at 3am on a Monday morning to watch the Celtic first team play their local schoolboy side on a muddy field with no lights. We can't get anywhere near the numbers to turn out to watch their local team even on a glorious Summer's evening.
The key probelm with Irish football is it's appeal - particularly in relation to competitive football products which are viewed as superior, more exciting and more glamorous (Premiership and SPL). Switching to or from Summer football will in itself do no more than add or subtract a couple of hundred at most form an average crowd. Likewise the choice of evening a game is played on is only tinkering around the edges.
The core benefit Summer football will deliver, however, is in having our teams better prepared for European matches. Continually better European results will in turn generate positive media (albeit for a small number of teams), a degree of hype (albeit for a small number of games) and will go a large way towards addressing the perceived gulf in quality between Irish football and that played almost anywhere else. Overtime (and it will be a long-term process) this will eventually erode the idea that Irish football is completely pants.
The other way to tackle the inherent problem of 'appeal' alongside better European results this is through Marketing. That's the FAI's job. Which explains why it's never been done, then....
Improvements to the condition of pitches etc are also not real benefits from Summer football. Freak snowfalls aside, any half decent ground will function regardless of the time of year (they can do it in the English 3rd division...). We just happen to have very few half-decent grounds in our league...
To expect people to suddenly turn up in their thousands to watch our teams just because its July is ridiculous. It suggests there's significant pent-up demand for our league that's been forced to sit at home huddling round a fire in the cold Winter months, when all they really wanted to be doing was watching Eircom League matches. No such demand currently exists.
Therefore - Summer football should be looked at almost entirely as being an exercise in improving our European football results. That is the only way in which it could possibly create the change in 'appeal' required to generate any significant long-term increase in crowds.
The key to increasing crowds at Eircom League games (and more so Welsh games) is not in itself simply switching from Winter to Summer football. That's akin to merely rearranging the seats on the Titanic. Summer football alone won't save our league.
Seasonal weather is a handy excuse and an easy issue for the FAI to address in attempting to tackle a very complicated problem - namely, the poor appeal of Irish club football. Irish people would turn out in their droves in a force nine gale at 3am on a Monday morning to watch the Celtic first team play their local schoolboy side on a muddy field with no lights. We can't get anywhere near the numbers to turn out to watch their local team even on a glorious Summer's evening.
The key probelm with Irish football is it's appeal - particularly in relation to competitive football products which are viewed as superior, more exciting and more glamorous (Premiership and SPL). Switching to or from Summer football will in itself do no more than add or subtract a couple of hundred at most form an average crowd. Likewise the choice of evening a game is played on is only tinkering around the edges.
The core benefit Summer football will deliver, however, is in having our teams better prepared for European matches. Continually better European results will in turn generate positive media (albeit for a small number of teams), a degree of hype (albeit for a small number of games) and will go a large way towards addressing the perceived gulf in quality between Irish football and that played almost anywhere else. Overtime (and it will be a long-term process) this will eventually erode the idea that Irish football is completely pants.
The other way to tackle the inherent problem of 'appeal' alongside better European results this is through Marketing. That's the FAI's job. Which explains why it's never been done, then....
Improvements to the condition of pitches etc are also not real benefits from Summer football. Freak snowfalls aside, any half decent ground will function regardless of the time of year (they can do it in the English 3rd division...). We just happen to have very few half-decent grounds in our league...
To expect people to suddenly turn up in their thousands to watch our teams just because its July is ridiculous. It suggests there's significant pent-up demand for our league that's been forced to sit at home huddling round a fire in the cold Winter months, when all they really wanted to be doing was watching Eircom League matches. No such demand currently exists.
Therefore - Summer football should be looked at almost entirely as being an exercise in improving our European football results. That is the only way in which it could possibly create the change in 'appeal' required to generate any significant long-term increase in crowds.
Well put.
TG
observer
18/01/2005, 4:44 PM
In Longford attendances will always be lower for during the summer and not just because of seasonal work. The fact is that, in view of the small population in the clubs catchment area, you can only have large attendances when traditional GAA supporters attend matches. In the summer there is just too many high profile Gaelic games on to retain this support. Even though in Longford the powers that be (in both codes) have been very sensible as regards avoiding clashes, there is just too many fixtures for fans to attend everything. The expense involved would also make it impossible for the average earner to support both codes during the summer months.
harry crumb
18/01/2005, 5:32 PM
I didnt realise Longford were involved in big GAA matches in the Summer.
Well said DCFC Steve.All your points are correct and I'd imagine the Welsh league suffers from the exact same problems as we do in Ireland with competition from the Premiership,poor crowds and a bad image and shifting to summer soccer won't solve any of these issues.
Slash/ED
18/01/2005, 6:58 PM
Well the Welsh suffer from a bigger problem that moving to the summer may help, the fact that some of their local teams play in England, so even the people who want to support their local clubs end up supporting the English based teams. At least for three months of the year people who follow those teams can get their live football fix in the LOW.
dcfcsteve
19/01/2005, 12:28 AM
Well the Welsh suffer from a bigger problem that moving to the summer may help, the fact that some of their local teams play in England, so even the people who want to support their local clubs end up supporting the English based teams. At least for three months of the year people who follow those teams can get their live football fix in the LOW.
Slash/ED - that's again based on an assumption that they're itching to follow their local LOW club, with only a clash of timings conspiring against them. doing so. A change in season, and the thousands of Cardiff and Swansea fans will suddenly flock to the League of Wales. That simply isn't true.
Firstly - the majority of LOW clubs are in the north and west of the country, whilst the English exile clubs are primarily based in the south (with the obvious exception of Wrexham, but that still leaves Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Ebbw Vale, Merthyr etc in the south). Therefore - most don't have a clear local LOW team to switch their support to, even if they wanted to.
Secondly, there's ample opportunities currently for fans of the English-structure Welsh teams to see LOW games. The vast majority of LOW games are deliberately played at times that do not clash with the traditional Saturday 3pm English-league games. Friday nights are particularly popular. This Sunday sees a top of table LOW clash between TNS and Rhyl in Llantrisant - a town within easy reach of pretty much every south-Wales based English-structure club. Yet I doubt the crowd will be over 1,000 (only 3 LOW games in the whole of last season broke the 1,000 attendance barrier), and I seriously doubt if many of those who do attend will be fans of the FA-based teams. There's therefore in reality very little practical barriers stopping people actively supporting both an FA-based and an LOW team, but it clearly isn't happening in anything close to noticeable numbers.
Again the problem here is the relative appeal of the English-based game versus the Welsh offering. Even English-playing teams like Wrexham can't compete against the appeal of Everton, Liverpool and Tranmere within their own locality. Tinkering around with the timings of the system will not tackle this reality. Only a significant increase in the relative appeal of the Welsh game will achieve this.
paudie
19/01/2005, 8:14 AM
Agree with your points dcfcsteve.
Would you also agree that the biggest single way of increasing the profile and popularity of league soccer in Ireland would be to have an All-Ireland league?
dcfcsteve
19/01/2005, 10:48 AM
Agree with your points dcfcsteve.
Would you also agree that the biggest single way of increasing the profile and popularity of league soccer in Ireland would be to have an All-Ireland league?
I think a team making the Champions League group stages would be the biggest single way of increasing the profile and popularity of league football in Ireland.
An all-island league would certainly do a lot for the game - primarily through the massive increase in media it would generate at the start. However, I'm not sure how much your average bar-stooler cares about Shels vs Glentoran when they currently belive that both teams are sh*te. Games involving Linfield would attract attention, but for primarily sectarian reasons, but beyond that I can't see, for example, Longford v Coleraine being of any more interest than Longford v Drogheda currently is.
I also don't think an all-island league will lead to a huge improvement in the standard of the game -particularly not at the beginning. Only when the league has proven itself is it likely that a significant increase in revenues from TV etc will be generated, and we're not going to be able to raise standards much without more cash coming into our game to enable professional teams etc.
As your question asks - I honestly believe the biggest single way of increasing the league's profile and popularity is for one of our teams (probably best if it was a Dub team as well) to make the CL group stages. That is the only thing I can see that would attract massive media attention in Ireland, generate hype amongst our supposedly soccer-loving public, and publicly state that our teams are as good as those from elsewhere in Europe. I think an all-island league is the way for football to go on this island, but on its own I don't think it will achieve any of the above.
patsh
19/01/2005, 10:58 AM
As your question asks - I honestly believe the biggest single way of increasing the league's profile and popularity is for one of our teams (probably best if it was a Dub team as well) to make the CL group stages. That is the only thing I can see that would attract massive media attention in Ireland, generate hype amongst our supposedly soccer-loving public, and publicly state that our teams are as good as those from elsewhere in Europe.
Well a Dub club had massive media attention, managed to draw 24,000 to one game, yet fell back very quickly to it's usual low attendances. CL qualification in itself won't change barstoolers minds either.
If $hels had got into the league stages, they might have drawn large attendances to the Cl games, but would it really have increased the gates at eL games? If a team from the eL gets into the C league stages, there is a danger that that team would totally dominate the eL, lessening the competition even more.
I realise that this is a very pessimistic view, and probably the worst case scenario, but it does highlight just how difficult, if not impossible, it is to make our league a success, in the face of years of relentless hype and hysteria generated by Murdock. :(
Well a Dub club had massive media attention, managed to draw 24,000 to one game, yet fell back very quickly to it's usual low attendances. CL qualification in itself won't change barstoolers minds either.
If $hels had got into the league stages, they might have drawn large attendances to the Cl games, but would it really have increased the gates at eL games? If a team from the eL gets into the C league stages, there is a danger that that team would totally dominate the eL, lessening the competition even more.
I realise that this is a very pessimistic view, and probably the worst case scenario, but it does highlight just how difficult, if not impossible, it is to make our league a success, in the face of years of relentless hype and hysteria generated by Murdock. :(
In fact judging from reports the games following those games (Harps in the cup for example) the crowds had fallen back below their usual. Not a dig at shels, more the irish sporting public, which is fickle in whatever sport it's "supporting".
An all ireland league won't be the saviour of domestic football on the island, but it will provide the critical mass for sponsorship, and TV. I mean FFS, BBC NI style coverage would be a start for the eL!
dcfcsteve
19/01/2005, 11:35 AM
Well a Dub club had massive media attention, managed to draw 24,000 to one game, yet fell back very quickly to it's usual low attendances. CL qualification in itself won't change barstoolers minds either.
If $hels had got into the league stages, they might have drawn large attendances to the Cl games, but would it really have increased the gates at eL games? If a team from the eL gets into the C league stages, there is a danger that that team would totally dominate the eL, lessening the competition even more.
I realise that this is a very pessimistic view, and probably the worst case scenario, but it does highlight just how difficult, if not impossible, it is to make our league a success, in the face of years of relentless hype and hysteria generated by Murdock. :(
That was a one-off event, and rightly viewed as such by the sporting public.
A team in the group stages would have 6 televised games - 2 or 4 of those against big European teams. They'd also have to knock-out at least one fairly big team to get that far. Therefore, I honestly think that Group qualification is the psychological 'tipping point' - the required seal of approval of a team/league. More than a 'one-off' event, and involving the highest level of football in Europe. If that were to happen across a number of seasons, do you honestly think it would do zero for the appeal of Irish club football ? If so - we may just as well all go home now....
The overwhelming majority of people in Ireland don't fail to support domestic clubs because of a pathological hatred of domestic soccerl. It's primarily because they don't rate our teams, they have easy access to a dramatically higher standard of football than they can embrace as their own, and it's the norm in our society to follow English/Scottish football. Reducing the perception gap between domestic football and the other forms would help address this issue, and the obvious way of doing this is by reaching the pinnacle of European football - the CL group stages. It isn't going to happen over night, but I can't see any other way of substantively addressing the core reasons why people here turn their back on Irish football.
Remember - you couldn't give Ireland international tickets away up to the Jack Charlton era. Celtic were to all extents and purposes viewed as the Irish national team up until then by many people. It's amazing what a dose of success will do to remind people that there's teams of their own to support....
Slash/ED
19/01/2005, 11:39 AM
Well a Dub club had massive media attention, managed to draw 24,000 to one game, yet fell back very quickly to it's usual low attendances. CL qualification in itself won't change barstoolers minds either.
If $hels had got into the league stages, they might have drawn large attendances to the Cl games, but would it really have increased the gates at eL games? If a team from the eL gets into the C league stages, there is a danger that that team would totally dominate the eL, lessening the competition even more.
I realise that this is a very pessimistic view, and probably the worst case scenario, but it does highlight just how difficult, if not impossible, it is to make our league a success, in the face of years of relentless hype and hysteria generated by Murdock. :(
I suppose the trick is to bring in some kind of loyalty system where people who goto the league games get priority on CL games tickets, that could encourage alot of people to start going to the games if the tickets for the CL games are selling out fast which they more than likely would, from there you can just hope that alot will get hooked. Usually alot of people who goto EL games do get hooked quite easily the problem is getting them there in the first place and you could use qualifying for the CL to your advantage this way.
EDIT and yeah basically what Steve said, qualifying for the CL would hopefully have a similar impact to what Euro 88 did for Ireland. Before that we were getting friendlys against teams like Brazil with under 20,000 showing up, the last one sold out in minutes. Okay, Brazil weren't world champions in the first game but still, that's a huge difference. It's the bandwagon effect and it seems alot of Irish sports fans subscribe to the bandwagon mentality.
MariborKev
19/01/2005, 12:07 PM
An all ireland league won't be the saviour of domestic football on the island, but it will provide the critical mass for sponsorship, and TV. I mean FFS, BBC NI style coverage would be a start for the eL!
Macy, go onto the IL Forums and witness the numerous threads moaning about the BBC NI coverage. Indeed a number of them point to the need for TV3 style coverage. It truly does appear "the grass is greener".
Macy, go onto the IL Forums and witness the numerous threads moaning about the BBC NI coverage. Indeed a number of them point to the need for TV3 style coverage. It truly does appear "the grass is greener".
Quite possibly, but at least they have the highlights on the afternoon of the match, not waiting days for crap coverage. With an All Ireland league, we'd probably get the best of both anyway.
paudie
19/01/2005, 1:10 PM
That was a one-off event, and rightly viewed as such by the sporting public.
A team in the group stages would have 6 televised games - 2 or 4 of those against big European teams. They'd also have to knock-out at least one fairly big team to get that far. Therefore, I honestly think that Group qualification is the psychological 'tipping point' - the required seal of approval of a team/league. More than a 'one-off' event, and involving the highest level of football in Europe. If that were to happen across a number of seasons, do you honestly think it would do zero for the appeal of Irish club football ? If so - we may just as well all go home now....
...
not sure I agree with you about CL group stage qualification. If an EL team qualified once and did badly that would be seen "as a one off event" and would have little or no long term effect on attendances. The possibility of an EL team qualifying regularly for the group stages is light years away, the way things stand.
With respect to Shels there are probably the wrong team to well in Europe from a league point of view. They really do have very poor support considering how successful (and good) they are. They had a brilliant run in Europe playing some great football this year and it seemed to have no effect on their crowds. Perhaps if a club with a bigger core support (Bohs, Cork City, Derry) did as well in Europe there would be greater spin offs for the league.
My point about the All Ireland league is that it would mean that the teams qualifying for Europe would be that bit better as the league would be more competitive. Also an All Ireland league could generate (relatively)substantial TV revenue, which is what all the major leagues in Europe rely on for funding.
Also a big TV deal would benefit all the league whereas a team doing well in the CL would only benefit that club.
dougdub
19/01/2005, 1:15 PM
We need to build on the summer theme and market to get more people through the gates up and down the country.
MariborKev
19/01/2005, 1:39 PM
We need to build on the summer theme and market to get more people through the gates up and down the country.
Do you work for the FAI? With a soundbyte like that and no expansion into practical plans or action points surely you would be a shoe in
Slash/ED
19/01/2005, 6:25 PM
With respect to Shels there are probably the wrong team to well in Europe from a league point of view. They really do have very poor support considering how successful (and good) they are. They had a brilliant run in Europe playing some great football this year and it seemed to have no effect on their crowds. Perhaps if a club with a bigger core support (Bohs, Cork City, Derry) did as well in Europe there would be greater spin offs for the league.
b*ll*cks, why would the general public of Dublin start going to games regularly because it's Bohs rather than Shels doing well in Europe? It's an argument without any logic whatsoever, we're not talking about the established fanbase it's about attracting those who don't go regularly, ie the ones who couldn't care less weather it's Shels, Bohs, Pats, Rovers, Dublin Coty or bleedin' UCD. I mean we only had a few hundred, tops, difference between ours and Bohs crowds this season and last.
You may be right about Cork and Derry though because I think it's easier for teams outside Dublin to attract support when doing well because people who don't go regularly but who are from, say Cork, can related to a team called Cork City, representing the whole City (And county) better than someone in Dublin could relate to a team called Shelbourne, or Bohemian, or Shamrock Rovers that doesn't represent the whole City, it doesn't seem like their team. I think I've wored that badly but hopefully you see what I mean.
mypost
20/01/2005, 2:39 AM
The main reasons for changing the season to been played in Spring/Summer/Autumn, was that our European representatives would be better prepared for competition, (as shown by Rovers, Shels, and Cork's European results) and pitches would be in better condition, which they generally are. It was argued that attendances would improve by stuffing the fixture list with Dublin derbies, but with the 4-rounds of matches, high ticket prices, and the inconsistent timing of matches (thurs, fri, sat) attendances haven't improved. Fans get sick of playing the same teams every few weeks, and thankfully the 4-rounds of games has been binned for the coming season.
Marketing of games is almost non-existent. Clubs market their own games, often having to resort to putting ads in local/national newspapers. Tv coverage is bad, ticket prices are expensive, 15 Euro at most clubs, and 20 Euro in Bray, :( to watch games in generally poor grounds, and then you try to entice neutrals from watching their Premiership fix at home/pub?? It's a non-starter.
As regards the competition, where's the glamour in watching Bolton-Fulham, or Kilmarnock-Dunfermline compared to Shels-Cork, or Rovers-Bohs? I know which game I'd rather watch, and it's not on the tele. What Shels must show next season, is that their European results were not a one-off last season, they will have to get a beatable team in the European CL qualifiers to progress to the group stage, and increase the profile of the NL. I still feel however, that if Shels and United were playing on the same night in the CL, RTE wouldn't show Shels' match live, as they show United at every chance they get. :rolleyes:
Also, (and I know I've gone over this before) if the national team manager bothered to pick the league's best players for more international squads and games, instead of relying solely on English-based players regardless of their form, ability, availability, or physical condition at the time, it would shoot up the public profile of the league. The game against the Faroes in June, is the perfect chance to give the NL's best players a chance to show him, and the country what they can do. It would increase awareness of what they are capable of, in the media, which would in turn, increase attendances at games in the league. :)
I still feel however, that if Shels and United were playing on the same night in the CL, RTE wouldn't show Shels' match live, as they show United at every chance they get. :rolleyes:
Much as I hate RTE, last year Shels and United did clash in the CL Qualifiers for at least one of the games - RTE covered the Shels game.
paudie
20/01/2005, 8:12 AM
b*ll*cks, why would the general public of Dublin start going to games regularly because it's Bohs rather than Shels doing well in Europe? It's an argument without any logic whatsoever, we're not talking about the established fanbase it's about attracting those who don't go regularly, ie the ones who couldn't care less weather it's Shels, Bohs, Pats, Rovers, Dublin Coty or bleedin' UCD. I mean we only had a few hundred, tops, difference between ours and Bohs crowds this season and last.
You may be right about Cork and Derry though because I think it's easier for teams outside Dublin to attract support when doing well because people who don't go regularly but who are from, say Cork, can related to a team called Cork City, representing the whole City (And county) better than someone in Dublin could relate to a team called Shelbourne, or Bohemian, or Shamrock Rovers that doesn't represent the whole City, it doesn't seem like their team. I think I've wored that badly but hopefully you see what I mean.
I used Bohs as an example as they seem to have a bigger core support than Shels and therefore bigger potential crowds if they did well in Europe.
Hmmm, DCFC Steve, you talk a hell of a lot of sense!! Are you sure you support Derry?? :p
TG
observer
20/01/2005, 8:48 AM
Crumbs Harry I missed your post. :) For your information regardless of the standing of the inter county team, the attendance at a good inter club championship fixture in Longford would exceed 1500 and at semi final and final stages could be over 4000. Also traditionally GAA followers in Longford will travel to any high profile inter county matches in Clones, Roscommon, Portlaoise or Croke Park. This impacts on attendances at Flancare Park.
dcfcsteve
20/01/2005, 12:49 PM
Hmmm, DCFC Steve, you talk a hell of a lot of sense!! Are you sure you support Derry?? :p
TG
Through and through ! Though being the soft 'North-West of Ireland patriot' that I am, I do have a soft spot for the Harps as well...! :eek:
:)
A perfect example of how the LOW will never catch on is Port Talbot. Right in the middle of Swansea and Cardiff and most either are completely Rugby mad or support Man United! Cardiff or Swansea barely get a mention let alone the LOW clubs!
Port Talbot were top of the league earlier in the year playing on a mud bath partially roped off in front of 95 people. Me included! it was awfull and barely Munster senior league standard
holidaysong
20/01/2005, 3:51 PM
Much as I hate RTE, last year Shels and United did clash in the CL Qualifiers for at least one of the games - RTE covered the Shels game.
Yup it was the home leg vs. Deportivo.
Slash/ED
20/01/2005, 4:01 PM
I used Bohs as an example as they seem to have a bigger core support than Shels and therefore bigger potential crowds if they did well in Europe.
I don't see how core support effects the fair weather fans teams are hopeing to attact through doing well in Europe. There's no more potential for fans in any Dublin team than there is in any other one, bar maybe Rovers if they can really claim Tallaght as their own.
Take the relative point.....why not start a campaign for BK to play 'B'games,which are mainly based around EL clubs.However,because domestic soccer will always be a poor third to GAA & rugby,don't be surprised if these EL players get snapped up by low to mid-ranking Football Lge.clubs,cross-channel!
Mid to lower league teams in England have tried and failed to sign Steve Williams, Wes Hoolahan and a few others before from Shels, they can't afford them with the way they're slashing wages at the moment and the relative little difference in wages, which even favours our teams in certain cases, means it's not worth moving country for. A good first division side or premiership side would be a different story but the rest isn't worth moving for and certain players still with Shels have shown that.
dcfcsteve
21/01/2005, 1:55 PM
Yup it was the home leg vs. Deportivo.
The Shels game actually registered more viewers as well (317,000) than the Man U game.
The Longford v Waterford Cup Final also registered more viewers than the Arsenal v Man Utd game that was on at the same time, though in that instance I suspect the figures are unrepresentative, as a lot of viewers would've been watching the English teams down their local boozer.
holidaysong
21/01/2005, 2:58 PM
The Shels game actually registered more viewers as well (317,000) than the Man U game.
The Longford v Waterford Cup Final also registered more viewers than the Arsenal v Man Utd game that was on at the same time, though in that instance I suspect the figures are unrepresentative, as a lot of viewers would've been watching the English teams down their local boozer.
TV figures really are no more than rough guesses based on a small section of the country - yup shows no real difference from a guy home alone watching a match or 100 people packed into a pub watching the same game.
I was at the International Rules game in Croke Park that day and was in a nearby pub after it. 3 TV's in the pub - 2 with Man Utd vs. Arsenal (one of which was big screen) and 1 with Longford vs. Waterford Utd (A useless wee tv you had to break your neck looking up at)
TV figures really are no more than rough guesses based on a small section of the country - yup shows no real difference from a guy home alone watching a match or 100 people packed into a pub watching the same game.
Statistically it must be accurate, or it wouldn't be used for advertising sales (or rather wouldn't be accepted by the advertising industry).
Remember back to my stats classes, there's very little difference in the accuracy of a relatively small sample compared to one sampling millions.
Besides that only really covers the cup final figures, not the CL Qualifier.
(Incidentally, when I have been out to watch the football, I've really noticed a huge drop off in the numbers watching in pubs over the last few years. I can't remember the last time I was in one packed for it)
dcfcsteve
21/01/2005, 3:35 PM
Statistically it must be accurate, or it wouldn't be used for advertising sales (or rather wouldn't be accepted by the advertising industry).
Remember back to my stats classes, there's very little difference in the accuracy of a relatively small sample compared to one sampling millions.
Besides that only really covers the cup final figures, not the CL Qualifier.
(Incidentally, when I have been out to watch the football, I've really noticed a huge drop off in the numbers watching in pubs over the last few years. I can't remember the last time I was in one packed for it)
True - but without electronically tagging TV's/set-top systems, there's no more accurate way of doing it I'm afraid.
The ratings exist purely for the benefit of advertisers, so the number of people watching down a pub is sadly irrelevant (as the overwhelming majority of them will not be exposed to the ads, unlike someone sitting on their sofa).
mypost
22/01/2005, 2:14 AM
Much as I hate RTE, last year Shels and United did clash in the CL Qualifiers for at least one of the games - RTE covered the Shels game.
That may have something to do with the fact that TV3 were left to cover the Dinamo Bucharest game instead of Shels' game.
I'll put it a different way. If Shels and United were playing in the CL groups on the same night, and RTE could show only one game live, would RTE show Shels' game? You know that English teams' games will always get priority over Irish teams, on RTE. :( RTE's dedication to English football is shown by their showing of 15 live Premiership games (+ a weekly highlights show) a season, compared to a handful of live NL games a season. I would wonder if RTE would show Shels (or another NL team's) game in Europe, if an English club (usually United) were playing in the same competition on the same night. It shouldn't happen, but you know that RTE love showing United when they get the chance. :rolleyes:
Going back to the subject thread, the Welsh League is even worse than ours. Changing the season won't stop their European representatives going out in the first qualifying round. Attendances are poor, and they have team names like Total Network Solutions, FFS :rolleyes: Still trying to look it up on the map!!! :D
anto eile
22/01/2005, 12:33 PM
Quite possibly, but at least they have the highlights on the afternoon of the match, not waiting days for crap coverage. With an All Ireland league, we'd probably get the best of both anyway.
interesting true story:saturday afternoon highlights on either bbc or utv a few years ago. they only managed to show the highlights of the first half, didnt have time to film second half and edit tape for highlights by the 5.30 deadline, so they showed the highlights formt he first half, 0-0 at halftime. imagine then how stupid the presenter must have felt as he announced something along the lines of "and that game finished 4-4"! the camera crew mist 8 goals in the second half!
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