Identity is a sense of place not birthplace

[eirebhoy]

Tom Humphries

LockerRoom: Old Firm weekend and it strikes you that there can scarcely be a more curious Irish social phenomenon than our smouldering relationship with Celtic Football Club. I've never been religious apart from this weird, mainly latent, devotion to Parkhead - that observance gives an odd insight into what it must be like to live in a monotheistic culture.

I just assume that everybody I know likes Celtic to thrive, that we all have the same reference point, the same basic world view. Apart, that is, from the odd southside freakshow who'll make an ostentatious point of telling the world that being fully evolved as a post-colonial Irish person means being chuffed to bits when Engerland do well. Yawn. And to be a mature Manchester City fan is to take a delight in Manchester United's spiffing achievements.

It's a touchstone of Irishness that everybody you know has some sort of devotion to Celtic. Lapsed, staunch, casual, fundamentalist. Whatever. Celtic are as reliable a conversational fall back as the weather is. On a day like yesterday everyone you meet will have shared the same views on the Old Firm game.

Which makes the Aiden McGeady business odd and uncomfortable. Certain fans of certain clubs in Scotland have taken to giving Aiden McGeady a hard time because famously, he has declared for Ireland (well he declared back when he was 15, people have just begun to care now) Having been reared in Glasgow, many people would have assumed that McGeady would declare for Scotland.

A few preliminary points.

Firstly, the Scottish youth system is a tangle of silly rules and regulations which practically steered McGeady into a green jersey all on its own.

Secondly the kid has, like so many Scots, a deep affinity with Ireland. As Packie Bonner has explained about the whole thing: "Aiden's family comes from my part of the world, Donegal, and like a lot of Scots boys with roots from there he has a strong link with Ireland." Simple. Well for us it is.

And then there's the fact that if a club produces a great young player, possibly a genius, it is virtually the solemn duty of the fans of other clubs to barrack and belittle that player. The young genius will be well rewarded for enduring the taunting of the masses. That's entertainment.

Those few points should all mean that the Aiden McGeady business is no big deal but somewhere in the heart of Scotland the fact of a young fella choosing his nationality by inclination rather than by accident of birth has caused a wound. All sorts of sly comment sneaks into the Scottish media concerning McGeady. Take the following cuts from recent opinion pieces in the Daily Record: "I actually hope McGeady has a miserable career as an Irish internationalist. In football you reap what you sow and I suspect that McGeady has naively planted the seeds of his own self-destruction . . .

"The word that immediately springs to mind is patriotism - the commitment to the country of your birth - a value McGeady has chosen to throw away like the joke in an old Christmas cracker . . .

"On the day he made the decision to play for Ireland and snub Scotland, I think he made a profound error of judgment."

"What I cannot accept is that playing international football has descended to the level of a Woolworth's pick and mix and that McGeady and his generation have the right to cruise around looking for the strawberry creams . . .

"But I can see the point of those who believe he is nothing more than a self-serving opportunist who has snubbed Scotland at their greatest moment of need . . .

"It's time all Scottish Celtic fans got over their obsession with Ireland.

"The fact that Glasgow sports shops sell as many Ireland football tops as Scotland football tops is both pathetic and ultimately unhelpful. This isn't sectarianism, this is about being Scottish and proud of it."

These are harsh, mean and uncomfortable things to be writing about an 18-year-old footballer who when he was 15 made a decision based on emotion and intuition and love. Again it's worth remembering that Aiden McGeady is going to be a superstar, he'll rise above the clamour of small minds. And yet . . .

The whole business pushes some buttons which we'd rather not see accessed. There's an instinct to retaliate glibly by listing off a ream of English-born players who have represented Scotland and then to ask more saliently why any view of Scottish patriotism or nationalism can't include the huge strand of Irishness which runs through it just as any large-scale view of Irish nationalism is going to have to respect and embrace a dour strand of Scots presbyterianism which seems alien to our beery selves. And what about this business of all patriotic duty being to the country of your birth? Childish nonsense.

Those buttons, though. Aiden McGeady will be a star and he'll be our star and knowing that he has chosen us, doesn't it deliver just the slightest frisson of triumphant pride, that external validation we crave? It's an uncomfortable area and as a nation who boo and barrack opposing international players if they have ever been, as we see it, contaminated by contact with a Rangers jersey we are barred from taking the high moral ground.

Remember Saipan and that vicious and unfounded rumour that Roy Keane, in mid-rant, had questioned Mick McCarthy's Irishness in a rather crude and direct way? It never happened but even the whisper of it sent a shiver of discomfort down the national spine. Mentally we divided the team into two categories. Those who would be uncomfortable with the issue being out there and, well, those who were born here. There was the awful possibility that the rock had been lifted on that whole mess of worms.

We're as inept as the Scots are at understanding the nuances and ramifications of race and nationality issues. Do we love all English-accented players who play for Ireland as steadfastly as we love the home-bred boys? Honestly?

Who do we love more, an Irish player who was raised in England listening to The Clancy Brothers, being dragged to mass every Sunday and being forced to spend long summers with the relatives in Ireland during which time he tried his hand at Gaelic football or the fella who got a few schoolboy caps for England, saw nothing developing and ransacked the attic for his granny's birth cert? Do we cherish them both equally? Or are we just nodding insincerely at this point.

And the Kevin Nolans and Kevin Gallens and others who have dithered about their Irishness and then declined to come on board, do we not have a special cold storage place for them in our resentful hearts? Do we not take a little satisfaction in seeing them struggle in their careers? I know many, many people like me who were born in England of Irish parents. There's always something coming down the track which will make you feel a little less Irish than somebody who first saw the light of day in The Rotunda.

We're not broad and accepting. There are degrees. I remember Mick McCarthy once saying that his late father, Charlie, who hailed from Tallow in Waterford, had tried a few times to teach him how to hurl and thinking to myself happily that made Mick more Irish than he was before I knew that piece of information.

The lesson is that there are no easy lessons. We are coming fast towards a time when there will be kids born and raised beside me here in Marino who will be declaring to play soccer for Latvia or Lithuania or Nigeria.

Good luck to them. We should be as happy for them as we wish Scottish fans and journalists would be for Aiden McGeady. The only universal application of patriotism is what's in a person's heart and head, not where they got their first nappy changed.

------------------

Tom clears another Saipan incident up, 2 and a half years later. We're nearly there now. ;)

[brine3]

I was born in Dublin (twist of fate) but I am a Corkonian.

[holidaysong]

I was born in....Drogheda :o

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

I was born in....Drogheda :o

Sorry to hear that. :D

[Cowboy]

interesting piece

[Donal81]

Very interesting. Humphries can talk a good bit of sh*te at times but when he streamlines it, he's one of the best out there.

[Fergie's Son]

Interesting piece but a puff piece all the same. He didn't actually say anything other than "let's all get along".

[Donal81]

I see what you mean but there aren't too many other things a respectable journalist can say as a conclusion, are there? While he can talk himself into the ground, there isn't enough comment like this in the Irish sports media. Most of it is based around endless match reports and tabloid adoration of overrated players, not enough examination of the game itself.

[lopez]

No disrespect to the man for this IMO good piece of journalism - I've not been a great fan of his since Saipan - but he may well have been born in Britain but it's having an English accent that makes the difference in my opinion to the 'real' Irish these days, not where you were born.

[Kevin77]

Born in Limerick Hospital 1977. Lived in Clare until 1986. Then Dublin til 1988. Then Perth, Australia until 2001. Then Dublin until 2002, then back to Perth until current date.

You can't imagine how my accent sounds!

I still consider myself Irish and if good enough would not even consider playing for any country other than Ireland. Still follow Clare in hurling, Munster in rugby.

[Stuttgart88]

it's having an English accent that makes the difference in my opinion to the 'real' Irish these days, not where you were born.

So where does that leave Ronnie Whelan, with his weird half-scouse half-Dublin accent? Half-Irish? :)


there isn't enough comment like this in the Irish sports media. Most of it is based around endless match reports and tabloid adoration of overrated players, not enough examination of the game itself.

Well said. Couldn't agree more.

[sylvo]

[QUOTE=Stuttgart88]So where does that leave Ronnie Whelan, with his weird half-scouse half-Dublin accent? Half-Irish? :)



I think it's the smart ass coments that fans with inguurlish accents not players get, that he's meaning.

[eoinh]

Today i feel fijian!

Tomorrow i will feel ugandan


Friday i will feel like a Hungarian.



Saturday & Sunday I'll be Irish

[lopez]

So where does that leave Ronnie Whelan, with his weird half-scouse half-Dublin accent? Half-Irish? I was thinking more of Steve Finnan and Gary Doherty. Both came to England very young - part of Brian Lenihan's declaration that Ireland wasn't big enough for 5million people - and both have English accents. If they were to go Ireland matches as spectators rather than footballers, the first thing asked was why they aren't at Wembley? (or wherever). Humphries on the other hand has (I presume) an Irish accent even though by his admission he was born in England. I'd bet he would never be asked such a question, even if he admitted where he was born.

Too many Irish people out there - and sadly on this board too - who haven't heard an Irishman with an English accent. That's the response I give now to why I'm not at Wembley. Bit of a sheltered life we've led haven't we? I mean half the side you're going to see will have English accents - a couple of whom were born in Ireland. You've even had a president (within my lifetime at least) with an English accent, FFS. :rolleyes:

[lopez]

I think it's the smart ass coments that fans with inguurlish accents not players get, that he's meaning.
You mean like this?

Today i feel fijian!

Tomorrow i will feel ugandan

Friday i will feel like a Hungarian.

Saturday & Sunday I'll be Irish

[eoinh]

You mean like this?

Yes, Lopez but thats a joke. I dont need to put up a :) one every time I do one, do I?.


I totally except that people born outside of Ireland with Irish ancestry are Irish (except for Wolf Tone fans, of course).

I do have a problem with poeple like Houghton though who play for Ireland from a pure mercenary position.

BTW on a sidenote Hungarians voted last month to deny citizenship to hungarian speakers born outside of Hungary (there are millions of them apparently).

[fosterdollar]

Btw,so anyone who ever counted themselves as a 'Wolfe Tones' fan is not :confused: Irish..........

sigh... as much as i wish that were true...

[Bluebeard]

Funnily enough we voted last year to deny many people born in Ireland the right to Irish citizenship.

This is going to bite us on the arse in years to come when some young Romanian who started his career with St. Pats scores in a penalty shootout against us.

The article does turn out as "it is good to be nice", but there is a lot of ground being examined before the conclusion, and I cannot really see any other professional sports writer in this country (except possibly Con Houlihan on the odd day) daring to write something that goes beyond mere information and attempts genuine investigation. It is a reasonably well balanced article and it treats of the matter a little finer than it might be by many of the "commentators" on the issue in the political sphere.

[fosterdollar]

:rolleyes: & There'd be a population of under a million.......

and....

[lopez]

I do have a problem with poeple like Houghton though who play for Ireland from a pure mercenary position.
I'm glad to see that your unfunny quip was a joke, because the waking up and feeling a 57 variety of identities is the privilege of just a few people. What is the 'mercenary' position concerning Houghton? People's nationality/identity are gauged on 1. blood; 2. their birthplace; or 3. where they have moved to. Houghton turned down item 2 in favour of item 1. What's mercenary about that? If he chose to play for Qatar I'd think you had a point.

During the World Cup I got collared - along with Sylvo - in Saipan by a Spanish woman and a cameraman doing some vox pops for a US Spanish Language station. I mentioned the fact that I spoke Spanish was down to being half Spanish. She seemed a bit disgusted that I chose to follow Ireland (she didn't ask where I was born) instead of Spain, despite the fact that only in the same year had Spain allowed the maternal offspring born outside the country automatic citizenship.

It's odd that I don't get asked why I'm not at Wembley?, why don't I f*ck off back to where I come from? - or some other stupid question e.g. In a Boston pub by a Corkman that I should be good at Darts being English - when I meet my Spanish relatives. They ask me why I don't speak Galician and why my Spanish isn't perfect. That's the difference with Ireland where emigrants children are often treated like they're the half-cast illegitimate children of a wayward daughter.


BTW on a sidenote Hungarians voted last month to deny citizenship to hungarian speakers born outside of Hungary (there are millions of them apparently).
According to the BBC the vote to grant citizenship to ethnic Hungarians in bordering countries was carried although a low turnout may have made the vote invalid.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4069625.stm

For all the talk about fellow ethnics 'swamping' Hungary and undoubted pressure from the EU (While Slovakia is in the EU, Yugoslavia, Romania and the Ukraine are not) the result was surprisingly positive. BTW, the reason for the large number of Hungarians living outside the state is that the country's area was reduced after its defeat in WW1.

I did laugh at the Romanian PM sticking his two cents in. Is this the same Romania that has irredentist urges to consume Moldova and discriminated heavily against its own Hungarian population for years?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4065095.stm

Funnily enough we voted last year to deny many people born in Ireland the right to Irish citizenship.

This is going to bite us on the arse in years to come when some young Romanian who started his career with St. Pats scores in a penalty shootout against us.Has the Irish government stopped all foreigners from applying for Irish citizenship? AFAIK it hasn't, just the right to automatic citizenship being born in Ireland brings. As for the Romanian, who's to say he'd consider himself Irish in the first place? Another example of being born in a stable means he must be a horse. Either way welcome Ireland to the world of multiculturalism. I hope it doesn't hurt your natives too much. :rolleyes:

[Donal81]

Funnily enough we voted last year to deny many people born in Ireland the right to Irish citizenship.

This is going to bite us on the arse in years to come when some young Romanian who started his career with St. Pats scores in a penalty shootout against us.

Much as I despised that referendum - and I see your point - the legislation under the referendum hasn't been finalised yet. Hopefully, the Irish kid born in the Rotunda to Irish parents will be able to claim citizenship reasonably. The referendum only denied such people automatic citizenship upon birth, thank God. But as Humphries pointed out, this will soon be a country where the kid born and reared in Ireland wants to play for Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Moldova, Czech Rep or Hungary. If things don't get more inclusive and, again as Humphries notes, if we don't understand a greater concept of 'Irishness' than what we have now, what you predict should most definitely happen.

There are thousands of kids in the US with Irish parents and grandparents but has even one ever declared for Ireland? No because he likes being Irish-American. But I think we're getting off the pont, sorry about the rant. :rolleyes:

[Donal81]

the Irish kid born in the Rotunda to Irish parents will be able to claim citizenship reasonably

Sorry, I obviously meant to parents from outside of Ireland.

[eoinh]

Lopez,

Just two points

I know about Hungarys history. The reason there was such a low turnout was because people knew that the vote wasnt going the way of people who were in favour of granting hungarian citizenship to those born outside th country.
having been to Hungary a good few years ago they are without doubt the friendliest people in Europe. (And their women the most beautiful)

About Townsend and Houghton. Clearly there were some players who didnt consider themselves Irish but played for this country. They were only using the national team as a stepping stone to improve their own career not out of any feeling of loyalty.

As for a multi-cultural island - Im all for it!

[lopez]

There are thousands of kids in the US with Irish parents and grandparents but has even one ever declared for Ireland? No because he likes being Irish-American. But I think we're getting off the pont, sorry about the rant. :rolleyes:There's a big difference between the US and Australia on one hand and Britain, France and Germany on the other. No one in the US is a native except those people in wigwams who smoke the peace pipe. Everyone has a prefix (or should have) and quite a good few of these Irish-Americans avail of Irish nationality.

The reason there was such a low turnout was because people knew that the vote wasnt going the way of people who were in favour of granting hungarian citizenship to those born outside th country.
Sounds a poor reason not to vote. Shame Bush's followers didn't think the same.
[QUOTE=eoinh]About Townsend and Houghton. Clearly there were some players who didnt consider themselves Irish but played for this country. They were only using the national team as a stepping stone to improve their own career not out of any feeling of loyalty.In the case of Houghton there is evidence that he feels more Scottish than Irish but not that he doesn't feel Irish at all. As for the other two, you're right (although as I've said ad nauseum, they qualified legally). Townsend lost all my respect when as captain he persuaded the team to wear a black armband in honour of a recently deceased foreign nymphomaniac.

[eoinh]

Townsend lost all my respect when as captain he persuaded the team to wear a black armband in honour of a recently deceased foreign nymphomaniac.

Davros is........ dead! :eek:

[green goblin]

Huh?!Or do you mean in 'Dr.Who'?
Reports of,er,my demise are in fact,untrue............

Everyone else except Davros, please look away now!
Exterminated in the Genesis of the daleks, 1974. Revived in Destiny of the Dalek, 1979, but then frozen in ice. Revived as a disembodied head leading white daleks in Revelation of the Daleks, 1984, taken to Skaro for trial by grey daleks loyal to dalek Supreme. Reappears as Emperor dalek, head of Imperial Dalek faction in Remembrance of the daleks, 1988, presumed dead when mothership destoyed by the Doctor.
New series most likely to start 26th March 2005. First Dalek to be seen in episode 6. episodes 11 and 12 future new dalek army. No sign of Davros as yet. He could well be dead... Although he's appearing onstage over the summer. (http://www.hydefundraisers.co.uk/davros.htm)
Right. Geekiness slot over with.
It's OK, you can all look again. Sorry about that. :o :o

[Fergie's Son]

Funnily enough we voted last year to deny many people born in Ireland the right to Irish citizenship.

This is going to bite us on the arse in years to come when some young Romanian who started his career with St. Pats scores in a penalty shootout against us.

The article does turn out as "it is good to be nice", but there is a lot of ground being examined before the conclusion, and I cannot really see any other professional sports writer in this country (except possibly Con Houlihan on the odd day) daring to write something that goes beyond mere information and attempts genuine investigation. It is a reasonably well balanced article and it treats of the matter a little finer than it might be by many of the "commentators" on the issue in the political sphere.

With all due respece, equating a serious national issue with our footballing prospects is not appropriate. The issue was about numbers and the question of how many are too many. People suddenly appearing in Ireland 8 months pregnant just to get Irish and then EU citizenship isn't right and needed to be stopped.

[mandrake]

hey sylvo clear down you private message box.
Hey man....
whats up,
where u homefor christams...presume not. you didnt ring me.
whats going on.
over for portugal game?
going to isreal? im not.
see martin is putting about in thailand again...
loads of lases...

adj

houghton and townsend are heroes lads
and so is morrison, although i dont think eoinh from cork agrees. are you one of the lads that dont cheer when he scores?

[Donal81]

With all due respece, equating a serious national issue with our footballing prospects is not appropriate. The issue was about numbers and the question of how many are too many. People suddenly appearing in Ireland 8 months pregnant just to get Irish and then EU citizenship isn't right and needed to be stopped.

I could easily argue this point all night long as it's so full of holes but I won't bother, you've already voted and decided what "the issue" was.

[Cowboy]

No disrespect to the man for this IMO good piece of journalism - I've not been a great fan of his since Saipan - but he may well have been born in Britain but it's having an English accent that makes the difference in my opinion to the 'real' Irish these days, not where you were born.

I agree my friend, I only get **** when I tell em where I was born, guys with accents other than Irish get crap when they speak.

[Cowboy]

With all due respece, equating a serious national issue with our footballing prospects is not appropriate. The issue was about numbers and the question of how many are too many. People suddenly appearing in Ireland 8 months pregnant just to get Irish and then EU citizenship isn't right and needed to be stopped.

Talking politics on a football forum is inappropriate surely?

[Donal81]

Talking politics on a football forum is inappropriate surely?

Very true. If the politics being discussed aren't related to footy at all - which it has been on plenty of occasions - then there's no place for it on this particular forum.

[1MickCollins]

Lopez,

Just two points

I know about Hungarys history. The reason there was such a low turnout was because people knew that the vote wasnt going the way of people who were in favour of granting hungarian citizenship to those born outside th country.
having been to Hungary a good few years ago they are without doubt the friendliest people in Europe. (And their women the most beautiful)

About Townsend and Houghton. Clearly there were some players who didnt consider themselves Irish but played for this country. They were only using the national team as a stepping stone to improve their own career not out of any feeling of loyalty.

As for a multi-cultural island - Im all for it!

I don't mind limited immigration as long as the immigrants either return home or assimilate. I have lived in England and the US for 10 years and I don't think we want to have sizeable ethnic enclaves in urban areas in Cork and Dublin - I don't see what we have to gain, and clearly there is much to lose. Multi-cultutalism just doesn't work, you can be PC about it but the facts are clear - as a rule people of different ethic backgrounds do NOT want to live side by side. BTW I am not being hypocritcal being an emmigrant as I intend returning home, but if I stay my kids would be American, and not even Irish-American.

[1MickCollins]

So by your definition,any kids you had in the US would not want to live with you :confused:,as you are now different 'ethnic backgrounds';Am presuming you know people of 'mixed-race'?! Sorry.What you say is relative BS!



Oh my god, my opinion is shot out of the water by one mixed race couple :rolleyes: You're a fcuking genius.

I guess my fear would be the emergence of an economic underclass which is really what is happening already in Ireland with immigrants from Eastern Europe, the challenge is to assimilate and make them Irish and not make them skivvies. It is the mindless lefty "As for a multi-cultural island - Im all for it!" that I find irksome, I have little faith that racism will not become a bigger problem in Ireland than it already is, for Christ's sake we boo Rangers players. It's not like we are ready for multiculturism quite yet is it?

[fosterdollar]

Talking politics on a football forum is inappropriate surely?
Not everyone will agree with you there. (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=21001) However, probably is out of place in the 'Ireland' section.

[Cowboy]

And this has what to do with Irish football ??? If I wanted to debate politics I would go to a political forum



Oh my god, my opinion is shot out of the water by one mixed race couple :rolleyes: You're a fcuking genius.

I guess my fear would be the emergence of an economic underclass which is really what is happening already in Ireland with immigrants from Eastern Europe, the challenge is to assimilate and make them Irish and not make them skivvies. It is the mindless lefty "As for a multi-cultural island - Im all for it!" that I find irksome, I have little faith that racism will not become a bigger problem in Ireland than it already is, for Christ's sake we boo Rangers players. It's not like we are ready for multiculturism quite yet is it?

[Cowboy]

Not everyone will agree with you there. (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=21001) However, probably is out of place in the 'Ireland' section.

Sorry I dont get the relevance of your link?

[fosterdollar]

What did you honestly think you were going to get into when you read the title of the thread? Calm down will ya. Plenty of other threads discussing whatever you want to talk about. You can even start your own if you like. :ball:

[fosterdollar]

Sorry I dont get the relevance of your link?
Sorry mixed it up with this (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=208603#post208603) link - which holds the same sentiments i think.

Check out Green Goblin's post:


Ahh, foot.ie. There's nowhere else quite like it The breadth of topics covered over the past year have been breathtaking. Politics, shampoo, wedding ettiquette, weather forecasting, lifethreatening illnesses, politics, love, death, war, we even found time to talk about football!

[Donal81]

Possibly is that the Mods.could have merged these threads......see 'Off Topic'......as for Politics & sport.....inextricably linked.....

Politics comes into everything and shouldn't be separated for the sake of it, i.e. politics and sport, music, art, culture, etc. I think that if people want to discuss the issues of immigration and the citizenship referendum on their own and not related to sport, though, maybe it should go to another thread? This is an emotive issue and tends to get backs up immediately and drag on and on and on.

[green goblin]

Politics comes into everything and shouldn't be separated for the sake of it, i.e. politics and sport, music, art, culture, etc. I think that if people want to discuss the issues of immigration and the citizenship referendum on their own and not related to sport, though, maybe it should go to another thread? This is an emotive issue and tends to get backs up immediately and drag on and on and on.

I think this thread should be merged with the Humphries national identity one on Off Topic, if at all possible, please? It seems to cover pretty much the same ground, enjoyable as they both are. Especially when people get their backs up :)

[lopez]

I don't mind limited immigration as long as the immigrants either return home or assimilate. I have lived in England and the US for 10 years and I don't think we want to have sizeable ethnic enclaves in urban areas in Cork and Dublin - I don't see what we have to gain, and clearly there is much to lose. Multi-cultutalism just doesn't work, you can be PC about it but the facts are clear - as a rule people of different ethic backgrounds do NOT want to live side by side. BTW I am not being hypocritcal being an emmigrant as I intend returning home, but if I stay my kids would be American, and not even Irish-American.While I don't agree with what you say about multi-culturalism you do provide some valid points. However the fact you live in the US probably shows why it seems such a failure to you. In Britain, people live side by side, not in seperate 'neighbourhoods'. Even the most ghettoised of us will have friends of other races and nationality and unlike in the US, we converse after the sun goes down. I spent NY Eve for the second year running with my Zimbabwean mate and all his friends up from London. Me, Conchita, and a Columbian and his wife the only Honkeys there. Imagine a majority black party and no drugs (a Columbian present also), not even a spliff and no guns and not one of them asked if I had a farm that they could burn down. Why did I go for two years coming? Because the first one was probably the best party I've ever been to.

As for thinking your children are a different nationality to you, well like most people stateside it seems, I'd check into an analyst.

[Plastic Paddy]

I think this thread should be merged with the Humphries national identity one on Off Topic, if at all possible, please? It seems to cover pretty much the same ground, enjoyable as they both are. Especially when people get their backs up :)

That's why I started it, pure badness. I knew it'd stir up a hornet's nest. :eek: ;)


Possibly is that the Mods.could have merged these threads......see 'Off Topic'......as for Politics & sport.....inextricably linked.....

I wanted to merge the threads but I haven't figured it out yet. Bad mod. :o

:D PP

[Cowboy]

What did you honestly think you were going to get into when you read the title of the thread? Calm down will ya. Plenty of other threads discussing whatever you want to talk about. You can even start your own if you like. :ball:

am I right in presuming that your reply was directed to me? (you did not say) In which case I have to say i am very calm and I see no reasaon for you to use this tone. The thread title does not give any indication that the recent referendum is to be discussed in fact it opens with a journalistic piece which makes no mention of such, surely we are here to discuss matters which relate to football which can be divisive enough without bringing politics into it.

[fosterdollar]

The subject of the title is very closely linked to the subject of the referendum would you not agree? Politics is another aspect from which to debate different topics. As long as it is used in the right context and it doesn't get too extremist it is reasonable to allow it enter the debate, in my opinion. Didn't mean to use an offensive tone - on the contrary actually. Though i can see it didn't necessarily read that way. :)

[Cowboy]

Ok no problem, whilst I dont agree that the title in necessarily linked to the referendum my objection is to turning the debate in an inapproriate direction (not saying you did this at all) using comments such as "turning up 8 months pregnant"

Perhaps i'm wrong but I just dont think its appropriate to use a football forum to promote either right or left wing views. Football should bring us together not drive us apart


The subject of the title is very closely linked to the subject of the referendum would you not agree? Politics is another aspect from which to debate different topics. As long as it is used in the right context and it doesn't get too extremist it is reasonable to allow it enter the debate, in my opinion. Didn't mean to use an offensive tone - on the contrary actually. Though i can see it didn't necessarily read that way. :)

[SaucyJack]

I don't mind limited immigration as long as the immigrants either return home or assimilate. I have lived in England and the US for 10 years and I don't think we want to have sizeable ethnic enclaves in urban areas in Cork and Dublin - I don't see what we have to gain, and clearly there is much to lose. Multi-cultutalism just doesn't work, you can be PC about it but the facts are clear - as a rule people of different ethic backgrounds do NOT want to live side by side. BTW I am not being hypocritcal being an emmigrant as I intend returning home, but if I stay my kids would be American, and not even Irish-American.



you're kids will tell you different, bet on it,,,,where in the U.S. are you anyhow?

[Fergie's Son]

While I don't agree with what you say about multi-culturalism you do provide some valid points. However the fact you live in the US probably shows why it seems such a failure to you. In Britain, people live side by side, not in seperate 'neighbourhoods'. Even the most ghettoised of us will have friends of other races and nationality and unlike in the US, we converse after the sun goes down. I spent NY Eve for the second year running with my Zimbabwean mate and all his friends up from London. Me, Conchita, and a Columbian and his wife the only Honkeys there. Imagine a majority black party and no drugs (a Columbian present also), not even a spliff and no guns and not one of them asked if I had a farm that they could burn down. Why did I go for two years coming? Because the first one was probably the best party I've ever been to.

As for thinking your children are a different nationality to you, well like most people stateside it seems, I'd check into an analyst.

Actually most people in England do not live with other races. They tend to stick to their own ethnic/racial group as detailed in the census report. The Economist posted an interesting article about how Indian immigrants to England do not mix with African/Carribean immigrants. Again, there is a legitimate question of how many are too many. If 5 million Americans moved to Ireland would the country still be Ireland? It's legitimate to limit the numbers of people who wish to emmigrate anywhere and parroting catch-phrases of how we can all get along in a mosaic of racial harmony is intellectuall and morally untenable.

[Donal81]

It's legitimate to limit the numbers of people who wish to emmigrate anywhere and parroting catch-phrases of how we can all get along in a mosaic of racial harmony is intellectuall and morally untenable.


The issue was about numbers and the question of how many are too many. People suddenly appearing in Ireland 8 months pregnant just to get Irish and then EU citizenship isn't right and needed to be stopped..

Although I agreed with Cowboy that this was a football thread, I just can't stand your second quote and have to write something.

Did you stop to think for even one second why the referendum took place on the same day as local elections and European elections? For one second, even?

Did you consider for another second why Michael McDowell barely debated the referendum beforehand and used anecdotal evidence to support it?

Did you consider or even search out figures of how many babies were born in Ireland last year? If the issues was "about numbers," what were those numbers? What was the extent of 'citizenship tourism'? Do you know?

[Cowboy]

It's legitimate to limit the numbers of people who wish to emmigrate anywhere

Are you saying its legitimate to limit the number of people who wish to leave a country? Perhaps you mean immigrate?