View Full Version : Tom Humphries on identity and Irishness
Plastic Paddy
10/01/2005, 9:16 AM
I saw this posted on a Celtic message board and thought it well worth pasting on here. (I assume the article is from Saturday's Irish Times but, since I can't find a web link for it, I may well be wrong.)
:) PP
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Identity is a sense of place not birthplace
Tom Humphries
LockerRoom: Old Firm weekend and it strikes you that there can scarcely be a more curious Irish social phenomenon than our smouldering relationship with Celtic Football Club. I've never been religious apart from this weird, mainly latent, devotion to Parkhead - that observance gives an odd insight into what it must be like to live in a monotheistic culture.
I just assume that everybody I know likes Celtic to thrive, that we all have the same reference point, the same basic world view. Apart, that is, from the odd southside freakshow who'll make an ostentatious point of telling the world that being fully evolved as a post-colonial Irish person means being chuffed to bits when Engerland do well. Yawn. And to be a mature Manchester City fan is to take a delight in Manchester United's spiffing achievements.
It's a touchstone of Irishness that everybody you know has some sort of devotion to Celtic. Lapsed, staunch, casual, fundamentalist. Whatever. Celtic are as reliable a conversational fall back as the weather is. On a day like yesterday everyone you meet will have shared the same views on the Old Firm game.
Which makes the Aiden McGeady business odd and uncomfortable. Certain fans of certain clubs in Scotland have taken to giving Aiden McGeady a hard time because famously, he has declared for Ireland (well he declared back when he was 15, people have just begun to care now) Having been reared in Glasgow, many people would have assumed that McGeady would declare for Scotland.
A few preliminary points.
Firstly, the Scottish youth system is a tangle of silly rules and regulations which practically steered McGeady into a green jersey all on its own.
Secondly the kid has, like so many Scots, a deep affinity with Ireland. As Packie Bonner has explained about the whole thing: "Aiden's family comes from my part of the world, Donegal, and like a lot of Scots boys with roots from there he has a strong link with Ireland." Simple. Well for us it is.
And then there's the fact that if a club produces a great young player, possibly a genius, it is virtually the solemn duty of the fans of other clubs to barrack and belittle that player. The young genius will be well rewarded for enduring the taunting of the masses. That's entertainment.
Those few points should all mean that the Aiden McGeady business is no big deal but somewhere in the heart of Scotland the fact of a young fella choosing his nationality by inclination rather than by accident of birth has caused a wound. All sorts of sly comment sneaks into the Scottish media concerning McGeady. Take the following cuts from recent opinion pieces in the Daily Record: "I actually hope McGeady has a miserable career as an Irish internationalist. In football you reap what you sow and I suspect that McGeady has naively planted the seeds of his own self-destruction . . .
"The word that immediately springs to mind is patriotism - the commitment to the country of your birth - a value McGeady has chosen to throw away like the joke in an old Christmas cracker . . .
"On the day he made the decision to play for Ireland and snub Scotland, I think he made a profound error of judgment."
"What I cannot accept is that playing international football has descended to the level of a Woolworth's pick and mix and that McGeady and his generation have the right to cruise around looking for the strawberry creams . . .
"But I can see the point of those who believe he is nothing more than a self-serving opportunist who has snubbed Scotland at their greatest moment of need . . .
"It's time all Scottish Celtic fans got over their obsession with Ireland.
"The fact that Glasgow sports shops sell as many Ireland football tops as Scotland football tops is both pathetic and ultimately unhelpful. This isn't sectarianism, this is about being Scottish and proud of it."
These are harsh, mean and uncomfortable things to be writing about an 18-year-old footballer who when he was 15 made a decision based on emotion and intuition and love. Again it's worth remembering that Aiden McGeady is going to be a superstar, he'll rise above the clamour of small minds. And yet . . .
The whole business pushes some buttons which we'd rather not see accessed. There's an instinct to retaliate glibly by listing off a ream of English-born players who have represented Scotland and then to ask more saliently why any view of Scottish patriotism or nationalism can't include the huge strand of Irishness which runs through it just as any large-scale view of Irish nationalism is going to have to respect and embrace a dour strand of Scots presbyterianism which seems alien to our beery selves. And what about this business of all patriotic duty being to the country of your birth? Childish nonsense.
Those buttons, though. Aiden McGeady will be a star and he'll be our star and knowing that he has chosen us, doesn't it deliver just the slightest frisson of triumphant pride, that external validation we crave? It's an uncomfortable area and as a nation who boo and barrack opposing international players if they have ever been, as we see it, contaminated by contact with a Rangers jersey we are barred from taking the high moral ground.
Remember Saipan and that vicious and unfounded rumour that Roy Keane, in mid-rant, had questioned Mick McCarthy's Irishness in a rather crude and direct way? It never happened but even the whisper of it sent a shiver of discomfort down the national spine. Mentally we divided the team into two categories. Those who would be uncomfortable with the issue being out there and, well, those who were born here. There was the awful possibility that the rock had been lifted on that whole mess of worms.
We're as inept as the Scots are at understanding the nuances and ramifications of race and nationality issues. Do we love all English-accented players who play for Ireland as steadfastly as we love the home-bred boys? Honestly?
Who do we love more, an Irish player who was raised in England listening to The Clancy Brothers, being dragged to mass every Sunday and being forced to spend long summers with the relatives in Ireland during which time he tried his hand at Gaelic football or the fella who got a few schoolboy caps for England, saw nothing developing and ransacked the attic for his granny's birth cert? Do we cherish them both equally? Or are we just nodding insincerely at this point.
And the Kevin Nolans and Kevin Gallens and others who have dithered about their Irishness and then declined to come on board, do we not have a special cold storage place for them in our resentful hearts? Do we not take a little satisfaction in seeing them struggle in their careers? I know many, many people like me who were born in England of Irish parents. There's always something coming down the track which will make you feel a little less Irish than somebody who first saw the light of day in The Rotunda.
We're not broad and accepting. There are degrees. I remember Mick McCarthy once saying that his late father, Charlie, who hailed from Tallow in Waterford, had tried a few times to teach him how to hurl and thinking to myself happily that made Mick more Irish than he was before I knew that piece of information.
The lesson is that there are no easy lessons. We are coming fast towards a time when there will be kids born and raised beside me here in Marino who will be declaring to play soccer for Latvia or Lithuania or Nigeria.
Good luck to them. We should be as happy for them as we wish Scottish fans and journalists would be for Aiden McGeady. The only universal application of patriotism is what's in a person's heart and head, not where they got their first nappy changed.
i actually havent read what you posted because what i have learned from reading Humphreys articles is that he may have an idea about Gaa or even rugby he hasnt a clue about football.
Whatever he has said abou Glasgow Celtic - good, bad or indifferent its wrong.
I would regard Humphreys as the ultimate barstooler. He reguritates skys coverage in his own jaundiced world weary style.
Tried to emulate Dunphy (whos no great shakes himself) and failed.
Plastic Paddy
10/01/2005, 9:43 AM
I'm a wee bit surprised at you Eoin for dismissing what Humphries says out of hand without even reading it. Are you afraid that he might touch a nerve or what? :confused:
FWIW, I think in this article his view is cogent and balanced, and above all, he's right. Give it a go.
:ball: PP
i actually havent read what you posted because what i have learned from reading Humphreys articles is that he may have an idea about Gaa or even rugby he hasnt a clue about football.
Whatever he has said abou Glasgow Celtic - good, bad or indifferent its wrong.
I would regard Humphreys as the ultimate barstooler. He reguritates skys coverage in his own jaundiced world weary style.
Tried to emulate Dunphy (whos no great shakes himself) and failed.
Thats unfair Eoin. Humphries is no friend of the eL, but he is anything but a Sky clone. He has written many a column on the sheer greed, ridiculous hyping and the manner in which Sky is slowly destroyng football.
You should not comment on articles if you refuse to read them.
Don't see anything that will stir up a hornets nest tbh - the first few don't back up any of the usual celtic arguements (either way), infact call it curious.
The rest of the article is more stating the bleeding obvious than anything else - yes people born in the UK can be irish, no players that decide their nationality at 27 aren't accepted as much as someone who decided to play for Ireland at 15.
It's not ground breaking commentary, just more over hyped meanderings of an over hyped journo.
Strange thing about this Mcgeady character is that in his attempted defence against the scottish boo boys he is quoted in the press as saying he would have liked to, and probably would have declared for Scotland were it not for their cumbersome rules about schoolboy soccer or some such administrative red tape. In other words he was displaying an entirely mercenary and calculated streak to nation choosing, albeit for a 15 year old. I've no problem with this attitude from players as I dont derive any nationalistic pride or Tom Humphries like feelings of well being from the decisions of a spotty glaswegian 15 year old but if he was black, English born and playing for say, Birmingham City I'd wager it would not 'deliver just the slightest frisson of triumphant pride, that external validation we crave?'. Humphries is one of the firm and their holy trinity is The National Team, Celtic and Hurling.
It has to be Hurling, not GAA. Apparently stickball is more pure to these guys. I used to like his writing style, if not always the content but his easy fallback on to his holy trinity makes his columns tough going these days.
MariborKev
10/01/2005, 11:48 AM
Here here WWS,
His column are a lot more literate than many jounos but that merely papers over the cracks in the way his columns have bombed in gneral quality over the last 12 months
patsh
10/01/2005, 11:53 AM
In any discussion about Irishness or Irish Indentity, hurling will always come into it. It is a uniquely Irish game, and disparaging remarks calling it "stickball" or whatever, while maybe your opinion, simply demonstrate ignorance.
An article I read presented the argument as actual quotes from McGeady himself, in fairness to him he was fighting a PR battle as he was taken aback by the level of abuse he was shipping for playing in scotland, ending up a promising prospect and having declared years before this whole thing broke.
In any discussion about Irishness or Irish Indentity, hurling will always come into it. It is a uniquely Irish game, and disparaging remarks calling it "stickball" or whatever, while maybe your opinion, simply demonstrate ignorance.
No it doesnt. Hurling is a stickball game. Get over it. This is typical of the touchy holier than thou attitude to sacred cows that the likes of Humphries peddles. Theres a whole million or so kids in this land who will quite happily never play a game of hurleying in their lives. Deal with it and dont give me some nonsense that we all have to speak in hushed tones and with due reverence for a game of hurling. We dont, I dont. By the way me da played inter county hurling and his da managed an intercounty side, albeit a **** one.
In any discussion about Irishness or Irish Indentity, hurling will always come into it. It is a uniquely Irish game, and disparaging remarks calling it "stickball" or whatever, while maybe your opinion, simply demonstrate ignorance.
Whilst it maybe an Irish sport, it's not a million miles away from Shinty and even Hockey - as close to those as bogball is to proper football, aussie rules etc anyway....
Lionel Ritchie
10/01/2005, 12:23 PM
Whilst it maybe an Irish sport, it's not a million miles away from Shinty and even Hockey - as close to those as bogball is to proper football, aussie rules etc anyway....
Saw a brilliant quote from Eamonn McCann recently in an article where he explored the origins of hurling and "Gaelic" Football. While rightly pointing out that hurling and and Irish culture have been hand in hand for about 2 and a half millenia now "gealic" Football was and is he concluded "a traditional irish sport to pretty much the same extent that the Corrs play traditional irish music" Brilliant!
monutdfc
10/01/2005, 12:24 PM
"It's a touchstone of Irishness that everybody you know has some sort of devotion to Celtic. Lapsed, staunch, casual, fundamentalist. Whatever. Celtic are as reliable a conversational fall back as the weather is. On a day like yesterday everyone you meet will have shared the same views on the Old Firm game."
I don't care where you stand on 'the Celtic debate', that comment is plainly not true. It is lazy, clichéd journalism.
FACT: Nobody in my family has any 'sort of devotion' to Celtic. I know all of them, so that makes that statement incorrect.
A by-line to the main thrust of the discussion, which should not be allowed to descend into another tedious 'Celtic debate', but relevant to the discussion on Humphries merits as a journalist.
I think people give him too much credance because of the way he takes himself so seriously, a much better and more insightful writer of the Irish and Irishness is Declan Lynch in my opinion, he's more my cup of tea cause he uses a lighter touch, which even Humphries used to use before he started taking his kid to hurling training and getting all emotional on us :D . Lynch in the sunday indo yesterday - great stuff about how sport has replaced religion in this country and a great line about our architecture of the age reflecting this quiet shift - the wonder that is Croke Park.
a class act
Aberdonian Stu
10/01/2005, 1:23 PM
Well he wasn't exactly trawling the Scottish media for comments. The Daily Record is hardly a pro-Celtic paper and got mocked by Rangers fans I knew in Scotland for being too pro-Rangers so if he's looking for a fair and balanced opinion on McGeady he went to the wrong place. Did he check the Scotsman? The Press and Journal? or even the Scottish Sun?
It's like using the Daily Mail to get a general British view on asylum seekers!
Plastic Paddy
10/01/2005, 1:24 PM
Thank you people. This is exactly the kind of debate I wanted to stimulate by posting the article. :)
:D PP
dcfcsteve
10/01/2005, 1:58 PM
i actually havent read what you posted because what i have learned from reading Humphreys articles is that he may have an idea about Gaa or even rugby he hasnt a clue about football.
Whatever he has said abou Glasgow Celtic - good, bad or indifferent its wrong.
I would regard Humphreys as the ultimate barstooler. He reguritates skys coverage in his own jaundiced world weary style.
Tried to emulate Dunphy (whos no great shakes himself) and failed.
Eoinh - that's one of the most ridiculous postings I've ever read on here. How can you slate something someone has written whilst refusing to read it ? Outrageously small-minded.
To save your unsulleyed eyes from reading it (and I've no idea who Humphreys is, so no need/intention of defending him unduly) the article is actually more about the issue of identity than it is football or Glasgow Celtic.
But sure, even if that guy told you the time he'd be wrong....
dcfcsteve
10/01/2005, 2:23 PM
As a born and bred Irishman slowly approaching the point in time from which more than half his life will have been spent living OUTSIDE of Ireland, this whole issue of 2nd generation identity is becoming increasingly poignant to me.
There's a high chance I'll end up having kids in England. The thought of one of them bounding home from the shops one day wearing an England football or rugby top fills me with fear. I hope/intend to bring-up any kids I may have outside of Ireland with a very strong sense of their Irishness - even if it is masked behind an English/American/French accent.
But the Irish themselves seem almost obssessed with the concept of passing judgement on someone elses right to claim Irish identity. Have you ever heard of the phrase 'Plastic Jock/Welsman/Englishman' ? Uniquely, huge numbers of people aroung the world take immense pride in an ability to claim Irish ancestry. This is bizarre, perplexing, to a degree heart-warming, and seemingly unique. How many Americans/Australians make a big deal about their Dutch/German/English/Scandinavian ancestry ? Whilst most nations would find it great if large numbers of non-natives elsewhere within the world were openly asserting their connections to it - the Irish being the Irish, anyone who dares lay claim to our identity without actually being born in God's country is only allowed to do so in a very limited way. The English spent 900 years trying to quash the sense of Irishness. Now the Irish people seem intent on carrying on that job for them.
Held a hurley once ? Good so. Know who Gay Byrne is from endless Summers back home at your granney's? Great stuff. Speak more of the Irish language than most of the Irish themselves ? Tremendousc. But you're not and never will be the real deal, and we'll remind you of this regularly in a way that suggests your sense of Irishness is inferior, unpure, and almost 'unwanted'.
Myself and 4 mates from Belfast were over in Paris for the Ireland game in October. Politely making our way through a jammed Irish bar with a smile on our faces and the obligatory 'excuse me's, a couple of fat middle-aged Dublin c*nts heard our Ulster accents and said to each other - and I quote - "here come the Scottish...". (Luckily I didn't hear them and didn't know about it until one of my friends mentioned it later, as my lifelong pacificism would have come to an abrupt and violent end there and then). Not happy with passing scentence on the rights of 2nd generation Irish to a claim on their identity, it seems actually being born and bred within the island isn't even good enough either for some Irish people now. *******. Only amongst the Irish......
oh they of course had to be Dublin c**nts didnt they??!
get up the yard they were probably cork whoers - u exiles just cant differentiate the varied accents of the mother land! :D
if they were sporting scottish club replica shirts they got wot they deserved :p
Eoinh - that's one of the most ridiculous postings I've ever read on here. How can you slate something someone has written whilst refusing to read it ? Outrageously small-minded.
To save your unsulleyed eyes from reading it (and I've no idea who Humphreys is, so no need/intention of defending him unduly) the article is actually more about the issue of identity than it is football or Glasgow Celtic.
But sure, even if that guy told you the time he'd be wrong....
Ive read enough of his stuff to not I dont what to read any more. (A bit lime Camus0. The same stuff endlessly repeated. Its just that IMO his football articles are based on a few simple premises. He doesnt seem take much interest in LOI football - fair enough a good many columnists dont.
But neither does he take an interest in football but will write on it.
To me it seems to be based on a limited view he gets on travelling with Ireland, watching football on TV, reading the writings of dunphy and not knowing anything of the football world outside of England. He seems to go to a few club games a year in England and reads a few books on football. Thats it.
Theres only so much you can read, listen to and watch. Why should I waste my time on him. If i need someone to annoy me I read davros' posts and try and decode them.
The best columnists imo are Brian Glanville and Keir Radnedge
dcfcsteve
10/01/2005, 2:41 PM
oh they of course had to be Dublin c**nts didnt they??!
get up the yard they were probably cork whoers - u exiles just cant differentiate the varied accents of the mother land! :D
They Didn't "have" to be Dubs WWS - they were. A deaf man wearing ear muffs could recognise a Dub accent at 50 paces for feck sake :D A ******land accent is just as easy to recognise.
what are planters davros? peanuts?
SHURELY YOU OF ALL PEOPLE HAVE RESPECT FOR THE MANY STRANDS OF "IRISHNESS"
for shame! lol
dcfcsteve
10/01/2005, 2:45 PM
if they were sporting scottish club replica shirts they got wot they deserved :p
All 5 of us in Ireland football tops WWS. None of us ever wear anything else to Ireland senior games (obviously alongside troosers, nags, socks and shoes. :) I do tend to wear a Derry top to the U21 games, though).
Keep trying..... :D
Plastic Paddy
10/01/2005, 2:45 PM
what are planters davros? peanuts?
:D :D :D
SHURELY YOU OF ALL PEOPLE HAVE RESPECT FOR THE MANY STRANDS OF "IRISHNESS"
for shame! lol
Come on Dav, let's see you wheedle your way out of this one then...
:D PP
Methinks yer taking it a little too literally..........Take the general point,though I would say everyone on this MB has one of those sorts of views on Celtic;from being fundamentally passionate 'pro-' to fundamentally indifferent/'anti-' & then use this relative stance as some form of defining their personal notion of 'Irishness'!
Sigh :rolleyes:
i have nothing against or for glasgow If a number of people kept going on about how Once Caldes were the rallying call for Irishness and it was constantly being portrayed as such yould be forced to respond. Although no doubt they have three more Irish supporters than they used to have.
This country is getting ridiculous. Over christmas i was on a bus to kerry. The driver had a football ring in show with Bobby Gould going on about British football and what makes us different from the "foreigners". No one batted an eyelid on that show. People ringing in from Mayo describing Chelsea as "us".
The article has basically nothing to do with Celtic. The important bits for me were what he said about people born in England to Irish parents. There is something small-minded and ignorant among a lot of people in Ireland (not all) in the way they treat the generations of people and their children who were forced to leave these shores to look for work.
TH asks us to examine if we treat equally those who grew up in England with an Irish identity and those footballers who desperately dug out their granny's birth cert in their mid-twenties. I don't think it is unfair to say that we should rightly value the former over the latter; we shouldn't ostracise those who keep an Irish identity but live in England.
To give some examples - I think I heard a story about Gary Breen, born and bred in England, but always proud to be Irish, so much so that he wore an Ireland shirt into school the day after Ireland beat England in Stutgart (no doubt into a hostile playground). On the other hand, Cascarino had no connections with Ireland until he fancied having an international career - this attitude to team selection belittles what it means to play for your country, but the Breen and McGeedy cases certainly don't. At the same time, I have no problem with someone like Danny Murphy chosing to play for England, if that is where he feels his identity lies. This is not to prejudice either the issue of dual-identity, where it is possible for someone (like McGeedy) to feel equally patriotic to both the country of his parents and the country where he grew up.
Yer obviously unfamiliar with the Eng.language........Btw,have played football v.Brian Glanville,more than 10 yrs.ago & he was a senile,pompous old git even then! ;)
He is a senile pompous old git but hes a good writer. Hes interested in world football and knows his countrys failings and strongpoints in a football sense. Some of his historical stuff is very interesting. The Chelsea casuals is the name of his team isnt it?
No it doesnt. Hurling is a stickball game. Get over it. This is typical of the touchy holier than thou attitude to sacred cows that the likes of Humphries peddles. Theres a whole million or so kids in this land who will quite happily never play a game of hurleying in their lives. Deal with it and dont give me some nonsense that we all have to speak in hushed tones and with due reverence for a game of hurling. We dont, I dont. By the way me da played inter county hurling and his da managed an intercounty side, albeit a **** one.
So because a lot of kids won't play the game, it's just a "stickball" game....:rolleyes:
I have no hushed reverence for the game, it's a great game full stop, enjoyed by many thousands of people and is the highlight of the sporting year in this country, it is distinctly Irish and it is unique.
Interesting to see how you turned a piece in a newspaper about Glasgow Celtic and Ireland into a personal rant about hurling....:rolleyes:
oh they of course had to be Dublin c**nts didnt they??!
get up the yard they were probably cork whoers - u exiles just cant differentiate the varied accents of the mother land! :D
Naw they must have been Dublin c*nts all right, presuming that because they are from little England, the North must be little Scotland.....:)
green goblin
10/01/2005, 4:20 PM
Naw they must have been Dublin c*nts all right, presuming that because they are from little England, the North must be little Scotland.....:)
... so that makes Dingle little Wales? :confused: ;)
Norway likewise has a lot of ties with its emigrant poulation. They just happen to be in parts of america that the Irish arent in. (The brilliant Coen brothers movie set in the snowy north with the female police office had loads of norwegian americans in it - Damn it, the name of it is gone from me).
And lets not mention the welsh speaking Argentinians. :)
i actually havent read what you posted because what i have learned from reading Humphreys articles is that he may have an idea about Gaa or even rugby he hasnt a clue about football.
Whatever he has said abou Glasgow Celtic - good, bad or indifferent its wrong.
I would regard Humphreys as the ultimate barstooler. He reguritates skys coverage in his own jaundiced world weary style.
Tried to emulate Dunphy (whos no great shakes himself) and failed.
Couldn't agree more. The lad is a hyped bum who masks his arogance, ingnorance and narrow minded views with large words etc. :rolleyes: He is no better than Dunphy, actually worse as we expect it to be on RTE not the Irish Times-Ultimate Barstooler is right! :cool: :D
Docboy
10/01/2005, 6:54 PM
Norway likewise has a lot of ties with its emigrant poulation. They just happen to be in parts of america that the Irish arent in. (The brilliant Coen brothers movie set in the snowy north with the female police office had loads of norwegian americans in it - Damn it, the name of it is gone from me).
And lets not mention the welsh speaking Argentinians. :)
Fargo is the name I think you're looking for.
dcfcsteve
10/01/2005, 9:00 PM
Norway likewise has a lot of ties with its emigrant poulation. They just happen to be in parts of america that the Irish arent in. (The brilliant Coen brothers movie set in the snowy north with the female police office had loads of norwegian americans in it - Damn it, the name of it is gone from me).
And lets not mention the welsh speaking Argentinians. :)
Fargo ??
There's plenty of small towns/areas in the US with strong links to certain parts of Europe where large parts of the population initially came from (e.g. the mill towns of New Hampshire; Lancaster County and the other Amish/Dutch counties in Pennsylvania etc etc). But these are usually isolated examples. It wouldn't be correct to say there's a large pan-national ethnic-conscious amongst the American-Dutch people (who actually founded places like New York and gave the US words like Yankee), or any other long-established American ethnic groups bar the Irish and Italian-Americans.
As for Conor74's stat about the reduction in percentage of US residents claiming Irish ancestry - it would be completely wrong to suggest that that in any way shows a reduction in Irish-American consciousness (i.e. that previously self-declared Irish-Americans are turning their back on their ethnic origins). It is in large part due to Americas hugely dynamic demographics. The US population grows by an average 1% per annum - 2.5m new Americans every single year. Thats a 10.5% increase across the last census decade. The majority of this growth comes from amongst the Hispanic and Asians communities, with approx 30% of the total growth due to immigration. Meanwhile, net Irish migration to the US is at its lowest since records began, so the numbers of Irish going to the US is below 'renewal rate' in a rapidly expanding population. Therefore, the actual number of those with/declaring Irish ancestry may not actually be declining in real terms (it might even be increasing !). But expressed as a percentage, Irish-Americans are clearly in decline as an ethnic group. This decline will continue across the 21st Century, with the population of the US predicted to double by 2050.
Other factors may also have some influence on how and why people express their ethnicity in the US census. As the US becomes more and more diverse, and the number of incoming Irish dwindles, American individual's connection to their Irish past becomes more and more distant with generations - in particular if you have a non-Irish name (which is an individual's most obvious and often strongest link to their past). If the last 3 generations of your family were all called Martinez and you all speak Spanish, but beyond that your family was primarily Irish, are you likely to feel more Latino or Irish ?
Anyways - the census returns can not in themselves be used to suggest that Irish-Americans are consciously rejecting their ancestry.
Superhoops
10/01/2005, 9:34 PM
As a born and bred Irishman slowly approaching the point in time from which more than half his life will have been spent living OUTSIDE of Ireland, this whole issue of 2nd generation identity is becoming increasingly poignant to me.
There's a high chance I'll end up having kids in England. The thought of one of them bounding home from the shops one day wearing an England football or rugby top fills me with fear. I hope/intend to bring-up any kids I may have outside of Ireland with a very strong sense of their Irishness - even if it is masked behind an English/American/French accent...
Does that mean you intend to force your Irishness onto them? Surely children born to parents of any nationality in a 'foreign' country have the right to adopt the identity/nationality of their own choosing, be it the nationality of the country they were born in or the nationality of their parent(s).
It a bit like the Catholic religion. How many Irish people have turned away from Catholicism because they had it shoved down their throat when they were young?
Sheridan
10/01/2005, 9:48 PM
How many Irish people have turned away from Catholicism because they had it shoved down their throat when they were young?
Presented without comment.
dcfcsteve
10/01/2005, 9:58 PM
Does that mean you intend to force your Irishness onto them? Surely children born to parents of any nationality in a 'foreign' country have the right to adopt the identity/nationality of their own choosing, be it the nationality of the country they were born in or the nationality of their parent(s).
It a bit like the Catholic religion. How many Irish people have turned away from Catholicism because they had it shoved down their throat when they were young?
I won't 'force' their Irish identity upon them any more than all parents essentially 'force'/imprint a large chunk of their children's character anyways (e.g. manners, broad political beliefs, religion, football team to support etc etc). My enforcement wouldn't involve dragging them to a church that they don't believe in, however, and there's much more to Irishness than religion.
Regular trips 'back home' to stay with the grandparents/see the country, watching a lot of Irish TV with me, stories from Irish folklore/history, travelling to watch Ireland football games. Like I said, I'd like them to be strongly aware of their Irish identity - to be very clear that there is a place called Ireland that is more than 'just another country' to their family, that they should have an understanding of that country, that they are legally entitled to citizernship of it, and that they should be informed and proud of that part of their own and their family's heritage - alongside whatever identity they may or may not naturally develop in the land where they live (coincidentally, I'd also like my kids to be multilingual. But sure that'd only be brainwashing them...)..
If you take/took your kids to Rovers games week-in week-out from a very young age, is that not effectively brain-washing ? (or at least child cruelty... ;) ) Is that not the same essentially as taking them to mass every week ? Would you rather just leave them in a corner and see if they support any football team of their own accord... (God forbid - maybe even Bohs !) ? The hell you would..... :)
This is top stuff, PP. I'm just sooooooo sad that this is past my bed time now to join the fracas. But before I go: Fargo had Swedes in it. Brian Glanville had well and truly lost his marbles when I saw him at Lansdowne Road in 1993 (the person who claimed he was a great writer also thought Hans Christian Andersen's King was fully clothed). Eoin, I nearly had a few words with Humph in Basel in 93 over his role in Saipan but I read this latest. Hit the nail on the head in a lot of ways, but you can always argue he was preaching to the converted. WWS: Tut, tut: Yet another of the Irish schooling population to have been sick the week the 'e' word was discussed in history. :rolleyes:
Superhoops
10/01/2005, 10:26 PM
I won't 'force' their Irish identity upon them..... I was only posing a question not suggesting that you were going to do so.
Without wishing to sound patronising, your approach seems to be well balanced. I am sure that we both are aware of situations where the approach has not been so enlightened!
There is nothing that alienates people, particularly children, more than 'force-feeding' whether it involves nationality, religion, food, politics or following a football team. I was brought up on a diet of Fianna Fail and Shamrock Rovers and both stuck in my craw from an early age. Not sure if I have moved on by voting Labour and following Bray Wanderers, but at least I chose them for myself!
Finally, bonne chance avec enseigner vos enfants à être bilingues!
WWS: Tut, tut: Yet another of the Irish schooling population to have been sick the week the 'e' word was discussed in history. :rolleyes:
Explain the 'e' word please I'm intrigued by this code. Altough its a pity its not a code of silence in some cases.
lopez
11/01/2005, 11:06 AM
Explain the 'e' word please I'm intrigued by this code. Altough its a pity its not a code of silence in some cases.You don't know what the 'e' word is? :rolleyes: I'll leave you to get back to your crayons. Where ignorance is bliss and all that.
lopez
11/01/2005, 11:16 AM
Does that mean you intend to force your Irishness onto them? Surely children born to parents of any nationality in a 'foreign' country have the right to adopt the identity/nationality of their own choosing, be it the nationality of the country they were born in or the nationality of their parent(s).What about the brain-washing that goes on in In-ger-land about supporting the Scum? Even if you are just visiting the country on a booze-cruise your're expected to get behind the 'nation' if they are in the World Cup or EC.
razor
11/01/2005, 11:36 AM
When all Irish people accept that to many being a Celtic fan is a manifestation of their 'Irishness',then I for one will stop banging on about it!
As a holder of opposing beliefs to yourself on this whole topic it looks like we will be stuck with your 'banging on' forever.
I'm sure dcfcsteve's kids will follow DCFC, the same as mine will support CCFC, the same as people who support Celtic well there kids will support Celtic.
Of course you could let them make up their own mind.
Babysis
11/01/2005, 11:41 AM
Im a 2G. It was pretty simple for all of us. We were brought up in England, and we chose to call ourselves irish. Admittedly our parents engouraged us to think of ourselves as Irish, but it was up to us. We all support Ireland, and are very proud to do so. It wasnt brainwashing or any such thing, it was a choice, and one Im very happy about.
green goblin
11/01/2005, 1:04 PM
Im a 2G. It was pretty simple for all of us. We were brought up in England, and we chose to call ourselves irish. Admittedly our parents engouraged us to think of ourselves as Irish, but it was up to us. We all support Ireland, and are very proud to do so. It wasnt brainwashing or any such thing, it was a choice, and one Im very happy about.
Same for me. Always known I was Irish. Hope my own kids chose to acknowledge it as they grow up. Our local school had a "wear something blue" day, for some reason. My wife (Also 2g) sent our 4 year old little girl off in a GAA Waterford shirt. :)
My wife (Also 2g) sent our 4 year old little girl off in a GAA Waterford shirt. :)
That's what I like to see GG, a little gentle encourgement does no harm at all. :D
Jim Smith
12/01/2005, 8:45 AM
What about the brain-washing that goes on in In-ger-land about supporting the Scum? Even if you are just visiting the country on a booze-cruise your're expected to get behind the 'nation' if they are in the World Cup or EC.
Hardly a trait unique to England.
I was in a pub in Dublin watching you play Malta a few years back when I wasn't suitably ecstatic when you won. I simply didn't jump about and shout and the abuse that I got was far from good natured.
Guess myself & :rolleyes: RMK will be on the same side as once! :eek:
I always knew ye were ould pals. ;)
Mind you,they might just choose to support a club side themselves!Not unlike I did myself! ;)
I can just imagine the 6 or 7 year olds telling their Uncle Dav that they wish to support Celtic because they see it as a proper manifestation of their Irishness.
Oh you'll be so proud.
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