Club or Country?

[Karlos]

i'd say the many underage coaches in this country who give up many hours of their free time week in / week out may be able to take just a little bit of credit dont you think???!!!!

by the way my vote is for country over club by a million miles


here here, I haven't attended many EL games in my lifetime but give up 3 nights and a saturday morning to coach one underage and one men's amatuer team and make as much contribution to the development of Irish Soccer as they guys who pay the wages of Eircom League players week in week out.

I don't believe that attending every EL game makes you any more of a fan than someone who can't afford to go games, or can't becuase of work life etc but lives and dies for the results of his/her team. I know many people who live like that and others whoose lives revolve around amatuer football in the country. We wouldn't have any players in this country if if wasn't for the coaches and mentors who voluteer their time ar the likes of St. Kevins, Belvedere, Kilbarrack Utd, Ballyfermot FC, Raheny Celtic, Home Farm and every single club involved in developmental and recreational football in this country.

It's my pet hate amongst some football fans - swap the bar stool/terrace for a coaching field and the world of football takes a completely different view!

[Babysis]

As far as Im concerned there is no contest, its country all the way. In my opinion, anyone lucky enough to be allowed to wear that green jersey should be incredibly proud, and feel very lucky, and as long as they respect the shirt, I have no problem with them.

[harps1954]

CLUB - everytime ;)

[eirebhoy]

That's true all over the world, players transfer for money. It's true in England, it doesn't stop fans at Old Trafford chanting 'Argentina' to show their dislike of the English team. Many Leeds fans I know would have no interest in the English team. Club before country is quite common. It has nothing to do with pride in one's country blah blah blah. Is someone seriously suggesting that unless we get all excited over drivel like Oireland -v- Celtic FC (I would watch a La Liga game on telly first tbh, but that's from a footballing perspective) there's something wrong? It just has to be club, unless the Irish game is actually important, like a World Cup final.If Ireland were playing a friendly the same day as the world cup final Its no contest, I'd watch the Ireland match.

[dublinred]

Club - Although would be country if the club won the league every year.

[Slash/ED]

I used to be country all the way, I think it's the attitudes of some Irish fans more than anything else that písses people off. The amount of bandwagon jumping that goes on with the Irish team is a joke and that has led to the poor atmosphere in Lansedown road atm imo. All of this "best fans in the world" rubbish is just that, rubbish. I mean 30,000 travel to France to watch us play, 19,000 go to Dublin to see the Canada game, the debut of one of our most promising and talented youngsters in years. So I think, like I said, I support both equally but I'd rather see Shels qualify for the CL than Ireland make a world cup, probably because it'd have a bigger impact on football in this country.

[Hibs4Ever]

If Ireland were playing a friendly the same day as the world cup final Its no contest, I'd watch the Ireland match.

Me too. Definitely :)

[Paulie]

If Ireland were playing a friendly the same day as the world cup final Its no contest, I'd watch the Ireland match.

Well said that man.

[Slash/ED]

the "fans" that you speak of shouldnt take away or dictate your feelings towards the irish team in any way. its your team

Believe me I haven't missed a home Ireland match I've been able to get a ticket for since I've been old enough to go but I can see why these fans píss people off, and it's probably their attitudes towards the EL which makes me get behind my club even more rather then put me off the Irish team, if that makes sense, which is why I'd love to see Shels make the CL more than Ireland do anything.

[sadloserkid]

Club. I watch Ireland matches and I'm proud as hell of my nationality. I watched Ireland games long before Limerick matches. But I can honestly say that all of my greatest memories of football are club-based.
I should stress though that I'd put Ireland a long way ahead of Aston Villa or Dundee United, British clubs that I 'follow' but Limerick are where the heart is.

[sylvo]

Country.

[Schumi]

Club for me: 40-odd games in a season against 4-odd games in a season.

[dublinred]

Its a lot easier to change country than clubs these days , houghton, Townsend , Morrison etc.

[Dublin12]

:confused:

[eirebhoy]

Its a lot easier to change country than clubs these days , houghton, Townsend , Morrison etc.
95% of premiership players could move if they wanted.

[eoinh]

That should be something to be proud of. I asked an American what's the first thing that comes to mind when she thinks of Ireland and she said golf. Why is that? Because Harrington, Clarke and McGinley rapping themselves in the Ireland flag and singing with the Irish people. I can't wait for the Ryder cup in two years time as the 3rd biggest sporting event is coming to this country. Its all about country, its all about Ireland and I hope that doesn't change.

You probably feel that about only some sports though... that passionatic streak.

For instance, How did Ireland do in the last Crown Green World Championships?

[eirebhoy]

You probably feel that about only some sports though... that passionatic streak.

For instance, How did Ireland do in the last Crown Green World Championships?
Was that the 60 odd year old lady who won it? If so, it was on all the news bulletin's. If not, I haven't a clue. I love to see Ireland do well in absolutely everything, not that I keep an eye on all sports though. I hate cricket, never watched it, but still would love Ireland to have a good team.

[eirebhoy]

Well, I've tried to watch it. Shouldn't have said I hate it. Put it this way, if the biggest match of the year was on every TV in the pub I couldn't see myself watching it. That would probably be one of the few sports I could say that about. Altough, if Ireland were playing in a big enough game I'd watch it.

I love rugby, I was honestly getting palpitations watching England v Ireland.

Anyway, back on topic...

[eoinh]

Ireland play world cup qualifiers in cricket quite a bit i think. Yet where has all this love for ones country gone?

[eirebhoy]

Ireland play world cup qualifiers in cricket quite a bit i think. Yet where has all this love for ones country gone?
Never seen them on telly. Just read about their last year heroics in the papers.

[Éanna]

Roll yer eyes all you want, but saying that it's all non el fans saying 'country', & mainly the brave proud hardy true fans saying 'club' is a bit of a generalisation.
that wasn't what I meant. I meant that more non-eL fans were putting country first, and not club. sorry if I didn't make it clearer.

[Éanna]

Ireland all the way, every time. Loyalty is never called into question when it comes to wearing that shirt.
You Cork people need to go and take a long hard look at yourselves and your boring little city. Or alternatively go and live in Switzerland.
Loyalty ain't in question for eircom League fans either. "little City"? I was gonna say "you can talk" but then I remembered that Bray is sometimes in Dublin and sometimes in Wicklow- depending what suits.


I think if you asked the same question to followers of the English leagues and England I could quarantee almost everybody would support their club all the time over country.
spot on! Most fans who REALLY support a club would say that.


Ireland all the way for me too. Does that disqualify me from being a real fan of Irish football?
It doesn't, no. Its just a matter of opinion really.


sheridan the thing is you could be born in dublin, cork, sligo ( god help ye ) or longford ( even worse again ) but at the end of the day what are ye??? your irish.
yeah, but you're born in that place and you can be proud of it. I'm very proud of being Irish, but I would consider myself more Cork than Irish.


Why should that matter? Whoever plays for the Ireland team are representing us, and that's why they deserve our support. Similarly, when they win, lots of us celebrate. Our investment is emotional, and it's certainly no less real for that.
Thats fair enough. Thats how I feel about City.


To you and the other nay-sayers at this time of good cheer, bah bleedin' humbug. :p To the rest, a happy and holy Christmas. :D
I wouldn't have said its nay-saying as much as a different point of view.



I don't believe that attending every EL game makes you any more of a fan than someone who can't afford to go games, or can't becuase of work life etc but lives and dies for the results of his/her team. I know many people who live like that and others whoose lives revolve around amatuer football in the country.
It certainly doesn't make you more of a fan. Its people who have nothing to do with football at ANY level in this country and just watch Sky all the time that I have a problem with. I know guys who give all their time to junior/under-age football and they are the true football people, just like eL fans. Its the ones who go to landsdowne every couple of months and "support" their team from the comfort of their local that I despise.

[Éanna]

I love rugby, I was honestly getting palpitations watching England v Ireland.
I love rugby as well. And support the irish rugby team. Because IMO the Irish rugby team represents Ireland (in a way that the football team doesn't) and also it represents the 32 counties (another plus over the football team.)

[eirebhoy]

I love rugby as well. And support the irish rugby team. Because IMO the Irish rugby team represents Ireland (in a way that the football team doesn't) and also it represents the 32 counties (another plus over the football team.)
Portugal - Deco (Brazilian)
Italy - Ferrari (Algerian), Camoranesi (Argentinian), Liverani (Somalian)
Germany - Kuranyi (Brazilian), Asamoah (Ghanian)
France - Trezeguet (born and bread in Argentina to Argentinian parents)
Poland - Olisadebe (Nigerian)
Belgium - Mpenza (Congo)
Turkey - Basturk (German), Davala (German)
Japan - Alex (Brazilian)

Those are the names I know with a bit of help from Google. Then you have the hundreds in Africa incuding des Santos of Togo:
"For me, a match against the Brazilian team in the World Cup would be very tough," he told Reuters. "I think I'd ask the coach not to play. Seriously."

At this rate you might aswell give up supporting football. ;)

[Éanna]

Portugal - Deco (Brazilian)
Italy - Ferrari (Algerian), Camoranesi (Argentinian), Liverani (Somalian)
Germany - Kuranyi (Brazilian), Asamoah (Ghanian)
France - Trezeguet (born and bread in Argentina to Argentinian parents)
Poland - Olisadebe (Nigerian)
Belgium - Mpenza (Congo)
Turkey - Basturk (German), Davala (German)
Japan - Alex (Brazilian)

what is your point? I don't agree with ANY footballer chopping and changing nationality like that.

There is one crucial difference between most (if not all) of those players and the likes of Morrison/Holland/Macken though. Those players lived in the countries they switched to. Has Clinton ever lived in Ireland? Or Matt? Or Jon? I'm not some fundamentalist nationalist who believes you have to be born in Ireland to be Irish, but the likes of these guys know nothing about Ireland or what it is to be Irish- gary Breen was born in England, but played for Ireland all the way and he's as irish as you or me. these imposters aren't. Its an easy ticket to a wage rise for them- "hey boss. I'm an international now. I should be on more than this" :rolleyes:

[Éanna]

by the way for france you can add the likes of:
Barthez (Spain)
Thuram (Guadaloupe)
Vieira (senegal)
Desailly (Ghana)

or Hargreaves for England. the list is endless. I know that. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it

[Beavis]

It certainly doesn't make you more of a fan. Its people who have nothing to do with football at ANY level in this country and just watch Sky all the time that I have a problem with. I know guys who give all their time to junior/under-age football and they are the true football people, just like eL fans. Its the ones who go to landsdowne every couple of months and "support" their team from the comfort of their local that I despise.Glad you acknowledge this,I agree with this point of view. :)

My problem with club support is because there is so much migration among counties in Ireland and has been for years, it is rare to find someone whos roots cannot be traced to another part of the country. People wont become overly attached to any particular location. It’s to be expected that so many of us see ourselves Irish first and foremost and our place of birth and parental connections take secondary concern. When eL clubs enter Europe they represent Ireland and then it matters to me. The Hadjuk Split game ant Tolka was the best football memory of the year after Swiss and France.

On the other hand I couldn’t give a toss about the irish rugby team. I just cant stand the irish rugby culture.

[Slash/ED]

On the other hand I couldn’t give a toss about the irish rugby team. I just cant stand the irish rugby culture.

I agree with that, generally I'll cheer for anything Irish, the exceptions are Ronan Keating and the Irish Rugby team.

[Éanna]

My problem with club support is because there is so much migration among counties in Ireland and has been for years, it is rare to find someone whos roots cannot be traced to another part of the country. People wont become overly attached to any particular location. It’s to be expected that so many of us see ourselves Irish first and foremost and our place of birth and parental connections take secondary concern. When eL clubs enter Europe they represent Ireland and then it matters to me. The Hadjuk Split game ant Tolka was the best football memory of the year after Swiss and France.
very good point. As an example- I was born in Cork, but my mother's from Galway. I've lived in Cork most of my life, and am very proud to be from Cork. that said, I always feel at home in Galway, and always look out for GUFC's results.


On the other hand I couldn’t give a toss about the irish rugby team. I just cant stand the irish rugby culture.
I'll support any team in any sport that (REALLY) represents Ireland- cricket, rugby, made-up GAA-thingy....etc..... anything. Agreed on the rugby culture, but its a great game

[Éanna]

Obviously opt for supporting the former,but have a big place in my heart for the other 2,as they represent some part of who & what I am.The same :o applies to many proper sportspeople(& thus people should apply brain,before engaging in bias!)..........
yeah, I agree. But read some of things these guys have said over the years (clinton in particular) and tell me honestly that you think he grew up feeling irish? tony cas is more irish than clinton, passport or no passport.

[Bondvillain]

yeah, I agree. But read some of things these guys have said over the years (clinton in particular) and tell me honestly that you think he grew up feeling irish? tony cas is more irish than clinton, passport or no passport.


Ah come on man. You've made some very good points, but "Paddy X is more of a Paddy than Paddy Y because I reckon He FEELS more Irish"?

this thread, nay, this board, is running out of steam.....

[Pablo]

Ah come on man. You've made some very good points, but "Paddy X is more of a Paddy than Paddy Y because I reckon He FEELS more Irish"?

this thread, nay, this board, is running out of steam.....

i think certain members of this board find it difficult to accept the true feelings of football fans living in Ireland

[Éanna]

Ah come on man. You've made some very good points, but "Paddy X is more of a Paddy than Paddy Y because I reckon He FEELS more Irish"?
thats simplifying it a bit, but thats kind of what it comes down to really. I mean, you could be born in Ireland, to parents from Uzbekistan (as an example) and move to Uzbekistan at the age of 2 months, never have irish citizenship and you might never give ireland a second thought for the rest of your life. The point I was trying to make is that being irish is about your identity. and identity isn't who you're related to, or where you're born (although these things may influence it) Identity is what you feel, what you think, how you act etc

[Pablo]

thats simplifying it a bit, but thats kind of what it comes down to really. I mean, you could be born in Ireland, to parents from Uzbekistan (as an example) and move to Uzbekistan at the age of 2 months, never have irish citizenship and you might never give ireland a second thought for the rest of your life. The point I was trying to make is that being irish is about your identity. and identity isn't who you're related to, or where you're born (although these things may influence it) Identity is what you feel, what you think, how you act etc

well said.

Its when you decide you are Irish out of pure conveinience that i have a problem with

[eirebhoy]

by the way for france you can add the likes of:
Barthez (Spain)
Thuram (Guadaloupe)
Vieira (senegal)
Desailly (Ghana)

or Hargreaves for England. the list is endless. I know that. Doesn't mean I have to agree with it
The players above would choose France as their first choice. The players I mentioned are a lot different. They are playing for the countries they play for because they can't get into their own national team or they feel they have more chance of success with the country they chose. There's a lot more Turkish players that wouldn't have stepped a foot in Turkey than there are Irish players that wouldn't have stepped a foot in Ireland.

Anyway, the point I am making is that there is at least 1 of these type of players playing for the majority of teams worldwide. At this rate you might aswell not take an interest in international football.

[Éanna]

At this rate you might aswell not take an interest in international football.
Being honest I don't really. I watch it, but I have no huge interest in it. Kind of like how I watch English football without having a major interest in it

[1MickCollins]

Ah come on man. You've made some very good points, but "Paddy X is more of a Paddy than Paddy Y because I reckon He FEELS more Irish"?

this thread, nay, this board, is running out of steam.....


I think the concerns about players like Clinton Morrison are very legitimate, on the available evidence Clinton Morrison is not Irish and does not consider himself Irish. But the reality is you do not have to be Irish to play for Ireland, you just have to qualify for an Irish passport pretty much. The vast majority of people in most countries just want their team to win they don't care who plays, they just care about the results, Eireboy's list indicates that.

I think it is great that we have members if the Irish Diaspora playing for Ireland, the like of Gary Breen and Kevin Kilbane and Paddy Kenny add richness to the team and are a true representation of the Irish Family.

The Irish soccer team is not a perfect representation of Ireland and I think the majority accept that but we naturally have misgivings.

[Closed Account 2]

What if there was a semi-national team for the County of Cork, which played other national team. It could be like that Catalan team that sometimes plays Brazil and Argentina. Would there be any value in that ?

How about if the Ireland team was to be made up of players just from the county of Cork ? It neednt be every match but could we get some sort of quota going? Would that work, if say every other match all players were from Cork and the manager was from Cork too? Also ideally all qualifers for the World Cup and Euros would be at TC it could just be when they rebuilt Lansdown but after that we could see if we were able to keep it in Cork (or at the very least have a quota of matches played in Cork). But if there was a clash and City were playing maybe we to move the national matches elsewhere (any ideas ?), we'd still want to keep it in Cork mind, otherwise it would look like we were passing up our oppertunities.

[1MickCollins]

Spiffing idea old boy, inspired! :D

[blobbyblob]

highly ironic isn't it, that its the eircom League fans (mainly) who say club, and the non-eL fans who say country :rolleyes:


Wheres the irony?

[Éanna]

Wheres the irony?
the irony is that eL fans are used to the real business of supporting a club, and not watching them on tv (like MOST premiership/spl fans) and so feel a greater attachment to their club.

[Plastic Paddy]

Get down off your high-horse Éanna and stop being such a sanctimonious old fart. :p

Just think, if the eL was any better, maybe Irish clubs too could begin to attract those all-important barstoolers as a core of their support. Who else will buy 3 kits a season at 60 yo-yos a time? :D

:D PP

[blobbyblob]

the irony is that eL fans are used to the real business of supporting a club, and not watching them on tv (like MOST premiership/spl fans) and so feel a greater attachment to their club.


Surely the FAI should withold tickets for Internationals from EL supporters now that we know why the athmosphere has died at Lansdowne.

[Éanna]

Get down off your high-horse Éanna and stop being such a sanctimonious old fart. :p

Just think, if the eL was any better, maybe Irish clubs too could begin to attract those all-important barstoolers as a core of their support. Who else will buy 3 kits a season at 60 yo-yos a time? :D

:D PP
if it was better? Maybe we should all forget about supporting ireland so and support brazil- they're better :rolleyes:



Surely the FAI should withold tickets for Internationals from EL supporters now that we know why the athmosphere has died at Lansdowne.
What? :confused: Sorry, haven't a clue what you're on about.

[Pat O' Banton]

the irony is that eL fans are used to the real business of supporting a club, and not watching them on tv (like MOST premiership/spl fans) and so feel a greater attachment to their club.


Cheers for putting me right on this, I thought when I was paying money going through a turnstyle and watching 22 men (and in some cases women) chase a ball a ball around a large green area that this was going to football, however your wisdom has prooved that I was wrong and that I wasn't going to a game at all. :rolleyes:

Eanna, really catch yourself on, most of the people on this board will go to football regularly and if they would choose club over country or vice versa its no reason for you to act as some form of moral authority on whose into the 'real business of watching football', cause I think you'll find many non eL fans as committed to following the game as you.

[Éanna]

Eanna, really catch yourself on, most of the people on this board will go to football regularly and if they would choose club over country or vice versa its no reason for you to act as some form of moral authority on whose into the 'real business of watching football', cause I think you'll find many non eL fans as committed to following the game as you.
you're missing my point. I'm not claiming to be better than anyone else. All I'm saying is that those of us who attend matches on a weekly basis have more of a connection with our clubs and therefore tend to put our club first. If anyone wants to support their country first, thats their lookout, I have no problem with that at all. I'm sure there are many non eL fans as committed as me, and maybe even ;) some who are more committed. I was just trying to point out that people who actively support a club seem less likely to interest themselves in the national team.

[Pat O' Banton]

you're missing my point. I'm not claiming to be better than anyone else. All I'm saying is that those of us who attend matches on a weekly basis have more of a connection with our clubs and therefore tend to put our club first. If anyone wants to support their country first, thats their lookout, I have no problem with that at all. I'm sure there are many non eL fans as committed as me, and maybe even ;) some who are more committed. I was just trying to point out that people who actively support a club seem less likely to interest themselves in the national team.

I mean surely you would admit that anyone who is as committed as you would by very definition 'actively' support a club?

And this is my point and perspective, I do actively support a club team and like many others on here we have a very strong connection and identification with our clubs (whoever they maybe) but still put the national team first.

[livehead1]

the irony is that eL fans are used to the real business of supporting a club, and not watching them on tv (like MOST premiership/spl fans) and so feel a greater attachment to their club.


i watch international matches on the Tv yet i prefer them to a club that i see regular..... dont see ya point

[Éanna]

I mean surely you would admit that anyone who is as committed as you would by very definition 'actively' support a club?

And this is my point and perspective, I do actively support a club team and like many others on here we have a very strong connection and identification with our clubs (whoever they maybe) but still put the national team first.
fair enough. like I said, its a matter of opinion.

[Éanna]

i watch international matches on the Tv yet i prefer them to a club that i see regular..... dont see ya point
I don't see yours. I can't see how someone could actively support a club and then favour a national team over them. I can't understand it at all.