Champions League last 16 [Archive] - Page 2

Karlos

23/02/2005, 8:21 AM

Arsenal were really poor tonight and didn't think Bayern were much better to be honest. 3 horrible mistakes at the back cost Arsenal bad tonight and the finishing by Bayern was superb it must be said. I think Bayern only had 4 shots on target in the game with the Frings one being off target.

Arsenal had a lot of possession but didn't really go anywhere with it - at 1-0 down they had a really good 15 minutes on top before half-time and directly after they had the Reyes chance that he should have squared but the defensive errors were killing them.

Defensively we were extreemly poor. It says something when watching the game i felt Cygan was our best defender on the night. Campbell & Cole were a huge loss. The goals we gave away were handed to Bayern, the first two at least were extremely ugly with long balls and big crosses not being dealt with by Toure, the finishing however by Pizarro was clinical on both occasions but they were given to them as opposed to well worked. The third goal was well worked and extremely well finished by Sally-Ham-Sandwich. You could blame Lehmann but I thought the quality of the cross meant he was stretching for it and these things happen.

At 3-0 it was all over. At 3-1 there's a glimmer of hope. In fact on closer inspection, 3-1 is much better than 2-0.

It's possible that Arsenal could beat Bayern 2-0 at Highbury. I certainly didn't feel Bayern were any great shakes without the help of our defenders and they could yet regret not really going for Arsenal last night as we really wobbled after the third goal and I feared it could have been 5 or 6. The team head dropped for a few minutes and Lauren really should have been sent off for a terrible two footed tackle.

Was quite dismayed that Wenger changed the formation for the game playing Freddie Ljungberg up front. I'm all for trying new things and I now that was Freddie's position before joining the club but he seemed so isolated and him and Henry rarely got a decent touch of the ball. I think what was more worrying was Arsene sticking with it for 80 odd minutes - Van Persie seemed to get more ball in the few minutes he played than when Freddie was on.

In the end, it was a disasterous nite with little to take away. The Last Minute goal means we have something to play for at least. The only real positives I can think of is:

1. We surely couldn't play THAT bad again
2. Bayern didn't exactly play us off the park
3. Campbell,Cole & Bergkamp should return

That's my slightly biased but trying to be objective review!

cheers

jockser

23/02/2005, 8:27 AM

Have to agree with most of the above. With the honourable exception of Kewell. I understand that he is coming back from injury but according to El Gaffer he's been training for the last 10 days!
I thought he was muck. He just didn't look bothered. The ref was crap, granted, but all Kewell did was whinge. For a while he reminded me of Robbie. There was no chasing of the ball or get-up-and-go about him. Luis Garcia was at the other end of the spectrum in comparison, imho! I thought he was quite impressive supporting the front man well chasing back and generally putting himself about. Man of the match Arnie without a doubt. Back to his best tonight. Biscan showed why he was bought in the first place. Was signed as the promising central midfield player (which he was) but was subsequently turned into a centre-half ( which he isn't/wasn't) unsuccessfully. Nice to see him repay the faith.

I'm glad that Freier lad is suspended. I thought he was impressive.

I though kewell played very well last night. so did the kop

GK for the Town

23/02/2005, 9:25 AM

I'm sticking with all of my predictions

Thought Arsenal were rubbish, terrible performance. Still have a lifeline though. Real - Juve was poor fare, boring game.

Last 8
Juventus
Inter
Barca
Milan
Arsenal (will overturn to save their season)
Lyon
Liverpool
Monaco

How come you reckon Arsenal will overturn a 3-1 first leg defeat after playing garbage and then you pick Milan over United ? With Shevchenko out tonight i reckon the tie will be over after the first leg. Just Like arsenals is.

jockser

23/02/2005, 9:50 AM

With Shevchenko out tonight i reckon the tie will be over after the first leg.

you obviously dont watch much italian football do you? :rolleyes: i hope man utd are thinking the same as you!!

NeilMcD

23/02/2005, 12:01 PM

Karlos

23/02/2005, 12:34 PM

Once again Wenger has been found out at the highest level. He just does not have the tactical awareness at European Level. I laughed and laughed last night seeing their defence flounder again. A defence of Lauren, Cygan, Toure and Clichy is never going to be enough and Surely Wenger must be blamed for not buying defenders in the summer or January. They have been shocking from set pieces all season.

I can understand and support Wenger going with the same defence that won a championship conceding the fewest goals last season, not losing a single league game and a defence that has been apart of 7 consequtive champions league game without a loss until last night. It makes complete sence to me but doesn't legislate for injuries to key players outside transfer windows..

Some of the players have lost some confidence, good managers don't make that worse by heaping more critisicm on the squad. Some teams don't have the luxury of spending �20 million on a right back or �30 million on a centre back like some of our Champions League Rivals - who could Arsenal have bought who is better than what's there and elligiable for the Champions League, I can't think of any in England with the possible exception of King at Spurs?? The absence of Campbell & Cole (2 experienced top qaulity Internationals) last night was a huge blow but you play with what you have. Apart from the slip-ups for the goals Bayern had only 1 more shot on target and 2 off target.

More important overall however has been the absence of Gilberto for the majority of the season. The player who patrolled in front of the 'best defence' in england last year and protected so well in the air at set pieces and corners. Least we not forget we only started conceding on a regular basis from corners & set pieces in NOVEMBER not the whole season as previously stated. Players don't become bad over night - their confidence is rocked and I feel for sure that the protection in front of them is not at the levels it should be in general.

I don't believe personally that Wenger was found tactically inept last night against a team that was gifted 3 goals and created little else. It was the same tactitian let's remember calling the shots that orchestrated wins and draws against the likes of Lippi's Juventus, Cuper's Inter, Capello's Roma, Benitz's Valencia, Irueta's Deportivo, Hitzfeld's Bayern etc etc. I believe he was right to play four attacking players (i'd question freddie's position in the line up but not the concept) to try and get an away goal and give the team a chance but simply putting it, the players just didn't perform as well as they can and in the end got a good result under the circumstances as had McGath changed his tactics and gone for more goals the tie would well and truly be over as a spectacle.

pineapple stu

23/02/2005, 12:45 PM

Why didn't Liverpool play Scott Carson?
Is he registered for the Champions' League?

NeilMcD

23/02/2005, 12:46 PM

Last season arsenal played very well but It also has to be said Wenger did not get many injuries to his defenders. When that happens a good manager does not go everything is rosey in the garden. They go, "I have been lucky there and will not be so lucky next season so I will get decent back ups in. INjuries are part and parcel of football and every team gets them. Man Utd had terrible injuries at the start of the season and as a result they were poor. Van Nistelroy has been injured for ages however Utd have still gone on a great run beating Arsenal twice during that time. Wenger should never have got rid of Upson and he should have bought 2 centre halves as back up or competition for Campbell and Toure. Cygan is not good enough. Arsenal have never got passed the Quarter finals. They are failures in the Champions League. As long as Wenger is in charge they will never win the Champions League as he is not tactically aware enough to consistantly beat the tops sides in Europe. How many games did they win as part of that 7 match unbeaten record. If I was an Aresenal support i would be very dissappointed with 2 quarter final appearances during his time in charge.

Karlos

23/02/2005, 1:14 PM

Wenger should never have got rid of Upson .

He didn't get rid of him. Wenger asked Upson to stay. The player decided to leave because (as he said) he wasn't prepared to battle it out with Adams, Campbell & Keown for a starting spot anymore. Unfortunetly for Matthew, when he did get into the team - 10 games in 2002 when he picked up a championship medal, he got injured and was out for a long time.

and he should have bought 2 centre halves as back up or competition for Campbell and Toure. Cygan is not good enough. .

Last year he brought in Phillipe Senderos who missed the whole of last year and most of this through injury. This year along with Senderos he's promoted Justin Hoyte (shock horror: an english born player) into the squad. He's said himself, he feels these players are as worthy of a chance and as good as anyone we can afford - both were carrying injuries for last night

Arsenal have never got passed the Quarter finals. They are failures in the Champions League. As long as Wenger is in charge they will never win the Champions League as he is not tactically aware enough to consistantly beat the tops sides in Europe. If I was an Aresenal support i would be very dissappointed with 2 quarter final appearances during his time in charge.

There are 31 failures in the champions league each season - except for fiancial reasons getting beaten in the final or being knocked out in the group stages means little to me. I, like the players and staff of Arsenal FC want to win the thing (full stop). I don't belive that Arsenal would be happy to get to the semi-final, lose and see it as a success. If we were spending over 25 million on individual players each season a la our domestic rivals, I would of course be hugely disappointed and I will be when we have that type of money to throw away in persuit of european glory.

As it is our pockets aren't damaged, we haven't been outside the top 2 in the league, haven't had to have the burden of qualifying for the CL and when all is said and done we've come as close as any of domestic rivals to winning the champions league in the last 5 years i.e. no where near! :D

Disappointed we haven't gone further sure but delighted we haven't sacrifed our finances with our failure and are now able to build a state of the art stadium, complete fiancially for the best players in the world and not have to rely on Arsene turning them into stars each year.

p.s. fantastic to see an Irish player on the bench for Arsenal last night too ;)

NeilMcD

23/02/2005, 1:18 PM

Karlos

23/02/2005, 1:47 PM

So u rather get knocked out in the second round phase than the semi finals then. So if you dont win it there is no point in entering. The ideas is to get as far as possible. The facts are arsenal have only made the last 8 during his time there. for teh quality of players he has at his disposal that is under achieving. Why did you pick the last 5 years is that because Utd won it in 1999 nearly 6 years ago now. Also both Manchester Utd and Chelsea and Leeds have all come closer to winning it thatn Aresenal have. i.e they all got to the semi's in the last 5 years.

Obviously you want to do well in the competition but come May I won't be walking around with a happy smile because we got to a semi-final. It's the one trait I share with Mr. Roy Keane, you shouldn't be happy with losing or getting a draw in professional sport. To explain what I mean, take Leeds as a great example. Leeds and Arsenal are similar clubs in the sence of size and wealth (at least back when Leeds where in the CL). Leeds got further than Arsenal, would have earned significantly more money than Arsenal, and look at where they now find themselves. Leeds spent a lot of money on chasing the european dream and it was without question a contributing factor in their demise. Arsenal have on the other hand improved their squad by our managers development of youth, lacking confience players and the keeping of the strict wage policy at the club.

So if you are asking me if I'd like to spend millions on replacing the squad and be happy with reaching a semi-final and putting the possible future of the club in jeopardy then the answer is no. I'm far more content with winning league titles spending little money, being in a great european competition and winning no less trophies than our big spending rivals. I'm much happier at the prospect of having a new stadium to visit to watch the best Arsenal team I've ever seen than an away game at Brentford or so.

FYI - the reason I said the last 5 years was that I know all the Manchester United fans hate Liverpool fans blabbering on about past glories in past decades and that they wouldn't want to be tarred with the same brush of thinking that past glories make up for present day ineffiicentices in europes top competition.

p.s. Apologies to Leeds fans but it is a good comparision considering the league and fiancial status that both clubs held at the same time

NeilMcD

23/02/2005, 1:57 PM

You can pick whatevers facts suits your argument but in my opinion and if I was an arsenal supporter I would be disappointed with a return of 2 quarter finals during the reign of Wenger. The question is why cant Arsenal transfer their success in the Premiership into the Champions League. My theory is that Wenger is tactically short at that level where Champions League requires you to adapt and change tactics during a game etc. Teams in the premiership role over very easy and as a result utd, Chelsea and Aresenal are so far better than the rest.

Karlos

23/02/2005, 2:06 PM

My theory is that Wenger is tactically short at that level where Champions League requires you to adapt and change tactics during a game etc. Teams in the premiership role over very easy and as a result utd, Chelsea and Aresenal are so far better than the rest.

so what's your theory on Chelsea last year and Ranieri?

Cladio Ranieri's Chelsea went further in Europe and knocked Arsenal out but couldn't get within spitting distance of them in the premiership. Do you think that because Wenger can get the better of him in the premiership but not in a european game that he is worse tactically than Cladio Ranieiri???

This surely makes Ranieri a far better coach regardless of his lack of trohies in the english domestic game.

It's all about the players and what they do on the day, managers can only do so much.

NeilMcD

23/02/2005, 2:09 PM

No I would never be stupid enough to form an opinion on the bases of one match or one season but I tend to base it on a time span of 5 to 10 years s then you can really get an idea of a managers capabilities as luck injuries etc tend to really even themselves out over time. Ranieri has only one trophy to his name Spanish Cup at Valencia. ( I could be wrong he may have won something at Fiorentina) I would not class him as a top class manager. He got the better of Arsenal that night but I dont think he is better than Wenger.

Karlos

23/02/2005, 3:45 PM

The facts are arsenal have only made the last 8 during his time there. for teh quality of players he has at his disposal that is under achieving. Why did you pick the last 5 years is that because Utd won it in 1999 nearly 6 years ago now. Also both Manchester Utd and Chelsea and Leeds have all come closer to winning it thatn Aresenal have. i.e they all got to the semi's in the last 5 years..

later! ;)

No I would never be stupid enough to form an opinion on the bases of one match or one season but I tend to base it on a time span of 5 to 10 years .

So we are agreed now that Chelsea, Liverpool, Leeds are european failures too and if we just use the 10 years as opposed to the more present 5 years then Utd aren't failures! brilliant! I now feel the scoursers have been given a raw deal in the past in light of this!!! :D :D

Of course, without question, I'd love to win the C.L. but regardless of the all the media hype around it, for me it's definetly not the be all and end all. i'm just happy I'll get to watch football at the top end of the premiership in the comfort of my new seat @ Ashburton thanks to our european failure money and our wage bill!

p.s. can't wait for the day when Roman does a Ridsdale!!! :D

NeilMcD

23/02/2005, 3:55 PM

Anybody that has entered the champions League as often as Wenger has without getting past the quarter finals is a failure in Europe. Utd have a decent record in Europe under Ferguson and Ferguson can be a little dissappointed that he has not got to more finals. Chelsea Have not been in the Champions League that much and got to the semis last year. Liverpool have not been great in it either so they are failures. Italian teams are the ones that have had best succes. I dont think the Champions League is about hype. It is far superious then seeing Arsenal beating CHarlton 5-0 or seeing West Brom and Southampton draw 0-0. There is about 10 intriguing mathces a season in the EP. Champions League is quality and maybe the reason you dont like it that much is cause you are pretty used to seeing Arsenal put in performances like they did last night.

Closed Account 2

23/02/2005, 5:47 PM

Is he registered for the Champions' League?

He was on the bench according to soccernet (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/match?id=169919&cc=5739)

Karlos

23/02/2005, 5:53 PM

Anybody that has entered the champions League as often as Wenger has without getting past the quarter finals is a failure in Europe. .

But a semi final appearance would make us not failures??? :confused:

Utd have a decent record in Europe under Ferguson and Ferguson can be a little dissappointed that he has not got to more finals. .

Ridiculous, half of europe can be disappointed by not getting further in the competition. Walking through group games doesn't give you a right to feel you should have gotten to more finals. You can't take the luck one year and then crib about not getting it another year.

I should know, Arsenal used up all their premiership luck in one full sweep last year!

Chelsea Have not been in the Champions League that much and got to the semis last year .

Just like Leeds eh? But of course, that doesn't count as you never judge on one season! :p

Liverpool have not been great in it either so they are failures..

I think if you can go back to the last decade to highlight your point, you could go the extra mile back to the 4 euro cups our scouse friends collected!

Italian teams are the ones that have had best succes. I dont think the Champions League is about hype.

I think there have been more success from spanish clubs in recent times with Valencia and Madrid being in a good few of the last 6 or so finals. There is huge hype surrounding the champions league and the quality isn't always great, the groups stages have some of the most meaningless matches ever seen come week 5 and 6. What about the much hyped tactical classic All-Italian final at Old Trafford between Milan and Juventus in 2003 - pure garbage!

It is far superious then seeing Arsenal beating CHarlton 5-0 or seeing West Brom and Southampton draw 0-0. There is about 10 intriguing mathces a season in the EP. Champions League is quality and maybe the reason you dont like it that much is cause you are pretty used to seeing Arsenal put in performances like they did last night.

Agreed, i never said the quality was superior, I said if european success meant having to whore out the club to players and agents on astonomical wages that result in us having to play first division football because we can barely stay afloat....then you can keep the euro cup.....i'd rather we continue with our policy of staggered payments, youth development and all the above in our brand new stadium and get to watch my team score 5 goals at home in the premiership. I reckon most Leeds fans would throw away that semi-final appearance for a direct route back to the top flight. Caviar is nice but you can't survive without your bread and butter! clear?

Pat O' Banton

23/02/2005, 7:28 PM

No no, don't apologise, I'm only too happy to think back to those days...though it looks like crisis over for the foreseeable future.

The next big meltdown will be another recent CL winner, Borussia Dortmund (ironically the city of Dortmund is twinned with Leeds)

Are Borussia in financial difficulty? They get 70,000+ a week, now that would put Ridsdale in the shade for financial recklessness.

If you are talking about their perilous slide down the table then there is a fair bit of form like this in Germany; Kaiserslautern, Leverkusen and I think Hertha have all been both CL contenders and relagation threatened in the last ten years (I think there may be more than this as well)

Pat O' Banton

23/02/2005, 7:30 PM

another recent CL winner

Admittedly I've not read all the thread but are you associating Leeds with winning the CL :confused: :D Well the idea makes me laugh.

Kingdom

23/02/2005, 8:44 PM

I'll be going for :

Juve
Inter
Chelsea
Bremen
Liverpool
Psv
Milan
Bayern

Oops!! I'll have to re-consider!! Perhaps:

Juve
Inter
Chelsea
Lyon
Liverpool
Psv
Milan
Bayern

Kingdom

23/02/2005, 8:49 PM

Are Borussia in financial difficulty? They get 70,000+ a week, now that would put Ridsdale in the shade for financial recklessness.

If you are talking about their perilous slide down the table then there is a fair bit of form like this in Germany; Kaiserslautern, Leverkusen and I think Hertha have all been both CL contenders and relagation threatened in the last ten years (I think there may be more than this as well)
Dortmund are close to �100m in debt I think. They have the highest average attendence in Germany. I read somewhere else that they got 82,000 for a match against Schalke earlier this season.

redgav

23/02/2005, 9:12 PM

p.s. fantastic to see an Irish player on the bench for Arsenal last night too ;)

Even better to see another Irish player make yet another appearence in The CL for Liverpool last nite

Closed Account 2

23/02/2005, 11:15 PM

Apparantly,Ch*lski to make an 'official' complaint re.some incident that happened @ H-T..........More to follow?

Yeah it was over Anders "Walter Mitty" Frisk. Apparently he went into the Barca dressing room at H/T and was acting all chummy with their players and Rijkjaard (or however its spelt). The guy is a joke, always wants to be the star of the show, he's put out Roma, Valencia and now probably Chelsea single-handedly. The Valencia - Werder game in the Maestella was a classic of how not to ref a match.

4tothefloor

24/02/2005, 12:18 AM

How come you reckon Arsenal will overturn a 3-1 first leg defeat after playing garbage and then you pick Milan over United ? With Shevchenko out tonight i reckon the tie will be over after the first leg. Just Like arsenals is.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Man Ure fans crack me up :D I chose Milan over United my friend, because Milan are a top football side, while Man U are a great big load of over-rated sh*te. You believed the hype, spouted from plonkers like Dunphy and Andy Gray, just like all the other Man U sheep. They had Shevchenko and Stam out, two of their core players, yet they still completely outclassed Utd. Away from home. The words past and sell-by-date spring to mind.

Once again Wenger has been found out at the highest level. He just does not have the tactical awareness at European Level.

Agree completely. I think Wenger struggles when things are tight and physical - he doesn't seem to have any answer, no plan B. They have been shot down this season in the premiership by teams getting stuck into them. You'll notice that Arsenals only answer seems to be aggression of the wrong sort, players getting sent-off and causing near brawls on the pitch (and off of it). They are very bad losers, hardly the hallmark of a great manager. Mourinho is beginning to show signs of being a bad loser as well, he's ranting even when they draw. Must be something in the air in Landan...

p.s. fantastic to see an Irish player on the bench for Arsenal last night too ;)

What's so fantastic about it? He's only there because they were missing a number of regulars and they have to fill a bench of seven players. Liverpool have Finnan starting, while Darran Potter came on for the last 10 minutes. That must be super-dooper fantastic I suppose.

FYI - the reason I said the last 5 years was that I know all the Manchester United fans hate Liverpool fans blabbering on about past glories in past decades and that they wouldn't want to be tarred with the same brush of thinking that past glories make up for present day ineffiicentices in europes top competition.

LOL, an Arsenal fan having a go at Liverpool fans for "present day ineffiicentices in europes top competition". Ye've never gotton further than Liverpool in it! In fact, Arsenal are a joke in europe. I notice the way you said top competition as well - conveniently forgetting that ye lost a UEFA Cup final in recent years, while we won one and the Super Cup? Tut Tut Tut :D

Karlos

24/02/2005, 8:11 AM

Agree completely. I think Wenger struggles when things are tight and physical - he doesn't seem to have any answer, no plan B. They have been shot down this season in the premiership by teams getting stuck into them. You'll notice that Arsenals only answer seems to be aggression of the wrong sort, players getting sent-off and causing near brawls on the pitch (and off of it). They are very bad losers, hardly the hallmark of a great manager. Mourinho is beginning to show signs of being a bad loser as well, he's ranting even when they draw. Must be something in the air in Landan....

I've no problem with Managers being bad losers - Wenger, Mourniho, Ferguson are all bad losers at times and usually when they feel they have beaten unfairly or controversially. I don't remember Wenger complaining on Tuesday Night, or after the Bolton defeat or the recent Man Utd defeat, he talked about his teams poor performance alright. Don't remember any 'real' acts of agression of the wrong sort against Bayern (perhaps Lauren tackle) or Bolton when we were losing this season for example. Your making sweeping generalisations about 'every' time Arsenal lose. Wenger complained after the game away at United all right, and I think he was right too. A manager that is happy losing is worthless. I think it's no surprise that Wenger and Ferguson are the two most successful managers in the premiership and are vocal about defending their teams and players. It could be argued that if Graham Souness, Roy Evans & Gerhard Houiller had been of the same mind Liverpool wouldn't be into their 15th year of waiting for a title.

What's so fantastic about it? He's only there because they were missing a number of regulars and they have to fill a bench of seven players. Liverpool have Finnan starting, while Darran Potter came on for the last 10 minutes. That must be super-dooper fantastic I suppose.

Excuse me for being happy that an Irish Lad is considered worthy of a place on the bench ahead of our young french english or spanish player in our reserve team. As an Irishman, I was delighted to see that and will always be delighted. I wasn't having a go at any other club's lack of irish players!! :rolleyes:

LOL, an Arsenal fan having a go at Liverpool fans for "present day ineffiicentices in europes top competition". Ye've never gotton further than Liverpool in it! In fact, Arsenal are a joke in europe. I notice the way you said top competition as well - conveniently forgetting that ye lost a UEFA Cup final in recent years, while we won one and the Super Cup? Tut Tut Tut :D

Way off the mark mate, it was an Arsenal fan having a go at Man Utd fans having a go at Liverpool fans and being selective about the time frame they use to be considered successful. Was actually defending my liverpool friends and if you actually read the thread again you might see I mention your 4 euro cups! :rolleyes: .

Didn't convienetly forget anything, read the thread again we were talking about the Champions League, not the Super Cup or the Uefa cup!!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Junior

24/02/2005, 8:17 AM

Yeah it was over Anders "Walter Mitty" Frisk. Apparently he went into the Barca dressing room at H/T and was acting all chummy with their players and Rijkjaard (or however its spelt). The guy is a joke, always wants to be the star of the show, he's put out Roma, Valencia and now probably Chelsea single-handedly. The Valencia - Werder game in the Maestella was a classic of how not to ref a match.

Was it not the numpty Roma fan throwing the lighter at Frisk that led to their downfall or am I just being naive. :confused:

Didn't Frisk help The Irish team out on at least one occasion? Right enough the 2 bookings were a joke last night.

NeilMcD

24/02/2005, 1:23 PM

To clarify my point

Liverpool as a club are not a failure in the European Cup to say that woudl be stupid. In recent times they have probably punched above their weight in getting to the European Cup quarter final and winning the Uefa Cup.

Man Utd have been consistantly average in work for the ability that they have at the Squad. They had one year where they were really good and they won it. Another year they did well and were knocked otu at the semi final stage by Leverkeusen.

Arsenal have been consistantly poor in Europe performing well below their ability and not showing the from they have in the Premiership

Leeds utd had one great season where they over achieved.

Chelsea Have had a decent season last season in Europe and if they get to the final this season that would be a decnet record in Europe but with the money behind them it is understandable.

My original point is that Arsenal are the biggest under achievers in Europe. With their resources and the abilty at the club and the form they show in Europe. IN addition you have to take into account to such claims as "Greatest Team Ever" which were made by fans of the club last year and lots of lazy journalists.

gspain

24/02/2005, 1:32 PM

Was it not the numpty Roma fan throwing the lighter at Frisk that led to their downfall or am I just being naive. :confused:

Didn't Frisk help The Irish team out on at least one occasion? Right enough the 2 bookings were a joke last night.

Frisk gave us the 2 pens v Spain in Suwon. Brave to give the 2nd one for attempting to swop shirts before the final whistle as although it was a certain penalty many refs turn a blind eye. Duffer may have been going down a little easily for the first one.

Thought he likes the limelight too much.

He should have let the Roma game continue with the 4th official.

He should not have sent Drogba off. both bookings were a bit harsh - forward's tackle early in the game and then he had every right to go for the ball ofr the 2nd one. You could argue both bookings.

It did totally change the game as Barca never looked like scoring before that although I reckon they would still have made the tactical changes anyway and could possibly have come back v 11 men.

GK for the Town

24/02/2005, 1:58 PM

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Man Ure fans crack me up :D I chose Milan over United my friend, because Milan are a top football side, while Man U are a great big load of over-rated sh*te. You believed the hype, spouted from plonkers like Dunphy and Andy Gray, just like all the other Man U sheep. They had Shevchenko and Stam out, two of their core players, yet they still completely outclassed Utd. Away from home. The words past and sell-by-date spring to mind.

I didnt think they were outclassed at all. They scored from one howler from Carroll (keepers are having a nitemare lately). & I cant remember any guilt edge chances that they missed. However had Scholes(normally reliable) taken his chance and Fortune put away his great chance, then you would not be saying the things your saying. I Never said that Milan were a bad side, i dont think anybody could make that point and have valid reasons to back their arguement. Thay do have quality players even without Stam and Shevchenko. I did think though that United would win and i still do think they'll win over the distance. We've had great results in Italy before when needed. When you think about the possibilities for counter attacking in the team at the moment with the pace and skill of the likes of Rooney, Giggs and Ronaldo, there has to be a chance there. No way is this over yet !!!!

Karlos

24/02/2005, 2:24 PM

My original point is that Arsenal are the biggest under achievers in Europe. With their resources and the abilty at the club and the form they show in Europe. IN addition you have to take into account to such claims as "Greatest Team Ever" which were made by fans of the club last year and lots of lazy journalists.

Agree with most you have said there. Disagree that Arsenal are the biggest under achievers in europe. Sure they haven't been hugely successful in the european cup but while we talk about european history of other clubs we shouldn't forget 3 european final appearances in the 1990's (more than any other UK club in that decade) - two consequtive cup winners finals and a uefa cup final.

You have mentioned resources and abilitys but have neglected to mention financial spend which when compared to some of europe's other yearly bridesmaids in recent champion league campaigns is pittance. I'm thinking of the last five years of so and the likes of Inter Milan, Juventus, Barcelona, Manchester United who have spent 4 or 5 times the amount of clubs like Arsenal and not won the major prize but have gone further - if you take everything else into consideration you must take that the money aspect also.

In relation to the fans, well no matter what club you support you'll get muppets saying stuff like the greatest team ever etc and likewise you'll get opposition saying it meant nothing etc when no one else has mangaged to do it post war. It's the nature of fans of every club not just Arsenal fans.

What I do hate however is the way the media have twisted the words of Arsene Wenger to make headlines. Two examples spring to mind

1. 'I think we could go go the whole season unbeaten' which quickly became 'we will go the whole season unbeaten' in the gutter press and with Richard Keys (of course he was right! Arsene Knows! :D )

2. 'This is the greatest ARSENAL team ever' which became 'this is the greatest team ever' convienently dropping the Arsenal from the line.

It happens all the time in the press it's just annoying when people don't take the time to read the exact quotes. It's pure here'say! (jeez they were a rubbish band - although that Mylenne one would get it! :D )

Macy

24/02/2005, 2:55 PM

we shouldn't forget 3 european final appearances in the 1990's (more than any other UK club in that decade) - two consequtive cup winners finals and a uefa cup final.
Are you sure about that 90's stat? ;)

Coltron

24/02/2005, 2:58 PM

Bayerns first goal was a route one ball which lead to a defensive mistake. Wenger match tactics can't be blamed for this. The second Bayern goal was a set piece, Toure again asleep and his bad marking led to the goal. Again Wengers match tactics can't be critisied here. The third goal was again poor defending from all the defense as a whole but at this point the team were clearly demoralised. Bayern created very litte infact I struggle to remember any clear chances they had except for Frings (?) miss. Arsenal played the better football IMO but struggled to break a very defensive Bayern down. Let me ask Wenger critics why was Ze Reberto taken off early? Was it because he was so ineffective or effective? In reality they cancelled each other out, but some sloppy play and individual errors cost them - not tactical ineptatude.

Karlos

24/02/2005, 3:07 PM

Are you sure about that 90's stat? ;)

From memory - could be wrong

United - Cup Winners Cup final, European Cup final

Chelsea - Cup Winners Cup final

Arsenal - Uefa Cup final, 2 Cup Winners Cup finals

:)

Karlos

24/02/2005, 3:14 PM

Arsenal played the better football IMO but struggled to break a very defensive Bayern down. .

agree with all you said here. I did think Arsenal had a lot of the ball and kept it well for an away game in europe but never really worked it into area's that could hurt Bayern. Bayern's tactics were greatly helped by the early goal which meant they could sit off in blocks of four and it must be said, they were absolutely clinical in their finishing for the goals (apart from Frings - thank god!). Goals definetly change game and you can think back to the Reyes chance directly after halftime when it was 1-0, when he should have squared it and had it gone in Arsenal could have could better, instead they conceded and the heads dropped. Such is football.

4tothefloor

24/02/2005, 3:16 PM

I didnt think they were outclassed at all. They scored from one howler from Carroll (keepers are having a nitemare lately). & I cant remember any guilt edge chances that they missed.

Crespo missed a sitter just before he scored, when he lost his balance. Kaka should have made it 2-0 but shot wide. Seedorf hit the bar in the first half. Utd's only real chance IMO was Fortunes miss. Ye were outclassed, ye hardly had the ball, only Utd fans would say ye weren't. The fact that their goal came from a howler doesn't mean anything, considering they dominated.

At 1-0, the tie is of course still open, but i'm sticking to my prediction of Milan going through, simply because they are better.

Macy

24/02/2005, 3:37 PM

Arsenal - Uefa Cup final, 2 Cup Winners Cup finals
Was the UEFA Cup Final not in 2000?

Karlos

24/02/2005, 3:41 PM

Was the UEFA Cup Final not in 2000?

yep just googled it - 1999/2000 season which mean the final was May 2000. I stand corrected. :o

NeilMcD

24/02/2005, 3:46 PM

By the way I had a bet that all English sides would go out, I am pretty confident that it will happen. English sides do not know how to keep the ball properly. Retention of possession is brutal in every English team when they get in Europe and it will be funny if they all go out.

Another part of me would like to see Irish players go far in Europe though.

Coltron

25/02/2005, 1:10 PM

I backed Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal to qualify for the next round along with Lyon and Inter but I think I've lost this bet. Individual errors cost me, Toure, Drogba/Ref and Carroll I don't care what Ferguson says. Didn't think that Barca would be able to break down Chelsea if they took the lead as they have struggled to break down lesser sides in La Liga and the CL this year. Milan really upped their game for the big matches, I watched them lately and they have been pretty average, I think Utd will score in Italy, not sure if that will be enough though. Arsenal where/are my tip for the CL and altough its looking dodgy I stand by it. Just because they didnt do it doesnt mean they couldn't ala, unbeaton season. They were told it couldnt be done too and look what happened... egg...face.