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just in colombia 3 get 17yrs to be served in colombia
from aertel
Three Irish jailed in Colombia after appeal
16 December 2004 17:24
Three Irishmen initially acquitted of training Marxist rebels in Colombia have now been jailed for more than 17 years following an appeal.
The prosecution successfully appealed the acquittal of Niall Connolly, Martin McCauley and James Monaghan.
Arrest warrants have been issued for the three men, who have remained on bail in Colombia.
The three, who had been accused of being IRA members, were found guilty of travelling on false passports.
Amazing that the Prosecution can appeal (though I think there are some suggestions that this could soon be a possibility in this country?), and get a heavy sentence like this. The whole trial seems to have been a joke, with the whole case depending on two "FARC deserters" who contradicted each other. Didn't Jim O'Keeffe TD prove that he was with Connolly at the time Connolly was supposed to be doing this training?
Can't say I blame them if they have gone on the run, but that will probably make it even worse for them, (if thats possible).
I thought only the passport issue remained.My understanding is that the Colombian Supreme Court convicted them on the charge of training the Guerillas. They were found guilty of travelling on false passports in the original trial, and sentenced, but had already served the time for that.
I don't understand this, they were acquitted, but the prosecution appealed. I wonder will the judgement be published, as I'd love to know what evidence the Supreme Court saw that the trial judge either missed or "mis-interpreted"....:rolleyes:
IMO they were not travelling on valid irish passports so irish state doesn't have too many duties towards them.
Harsh sentence is another debate.
Jim Smith
17/12/2004, 10:39 AM
Thankfully the three have made a daring escape from the clutches of 'Colombian justice' and will be home for Christmas please God...
If they do show up here - and I think they would be mad to - I wonder just what line the government will take. The Colombians will almost certainly try to get the US to use some muscle. The question might be what is more important to them, the Colombians in there war against drugs or Shannon in their Middle Eastern adventures?
eoinh
17/12/2004, 10:44 AM
Did any of these three serve time befor they went to Columbia? :confused:
patsh
17/12/2004, 10:49 AM
They were rightly found guilty and punished for the false passports offence.
Surely the point here, however, no matter what politics anyone has, is that a blatently unfair trial, saw 3 people acquitted, but now a different court has decided to sentence them to 17 years in prison.
This is not justice by any definition of the word, and cannot imagine anything like this being tolerated here by anyone.
eoinh
17/12/2004, 10:54 AM
Sorry Patsh i meant before they went to columbia. Had they served time before in Ireland or Britain?
Dublin12
17/12/2004, 10:55 AM
I did a thread on them about a month ago with not one reply funny how everybody is so concerned now
JohnB
17/12/2004, 10:58 AM
Given that the FARQ are using precisely the same methods to blow up civilians that PIRA did (design of bombs etc), I think it's stretching credibility to breaking point to think that information hasn't been passed on. 'Please god' that they're home for Christmas? Well, I suppose the three are still alive, unlike FARQ's victims.
Here's a particularly nasty story.
http://globalization.about.com/library/weekly/aa051800a.htm
dortie
17/12/2004, 11:11 AM
Given that the FARQ are using precisely the same methods to blow up civilians that PIRA did (design of bombs etc), I think it's stretching credibility to breaking point to think that information hasn't been passed on. 'Please god' that they're home for Christmas? Well, I suppose the three are still alive, unlike FARQ's victims.
Here's a particularly nasty story.
http://globalization.about.com/library/weekly/aa051800a.htm
:rolleyes:
And what has FARQs victims got to do with this ?? Have you found them guilty then, in your own mind ?
cullenswood
17/12/2004, 11:25 AM
I suppose you would have hung the Birmingham six aswell...;)
The Birmingham six weren't travelling on false passports! :eek:
They had to have been up to something dodgy. Your normal holidaymaker doosn't carry false passports
eoinh
17/12/2004, 11:31 AM
The Birmingham six weren't travelling on false passports! :eek:
They had to have been up to something dodgy. Your normal holidaymaker doosn't carry false passports
They werent carrying real passports because they had been convicted of something and their right to a passport hab been taken away from them.
What were they covicted of because i dont know.
JohnB
17/12/2004, 11:37 AM
:rolleyes:
And what has FARQs victims got to do with this ?? Have you found them guilty then, in your own mind ?
Are you serious? What have FARQ's victims got to do with this? Just about everything, I think. Weighing up the probabilities, I think only the most naive or one eyed would believe that PIRA have not passed on their expertise in bomb making to FARQ and that these three clowns were involved in doing as much. That expertise has allowed FARQ to kill shoppers and passers by in much the same way that the IRA did in Omagh, Warrington etc etc.
JohnB
17/12/2004, 11:41 AM
I suppose you would have hung the Birmingham six aswell...;)
No, of course not. For a start, I don't believe in capital punishment :p . I've every sympathy for the B6 but none at all for the C3.
dortie
17/12/2004, 11:48 AM
Are you serious? What have FARQ's victims got to do with this? Just about everything, I think. Weighing up the probabilities, I think only the most naive or one eyed would believe that PIRA have not passed on their expertise in bomb making to FARQ and that these three clowns were involved in doing as much. That expertise has allowed FARQ to kill shoppers and passers by in much the same way that the IRA did in Omagh, Warrington etc etc.
You not only have them as 'guilty' but also have their characters summed up as 'Clowns'. It doesnt take a clown to realise you have your own bitter twisted views on Republicans.
And personally I dont for one minute believe the tragedys you outlined above as being intentional.
patsh
17/12/2004, 11:54 AM
The only evidence against them were two deserters, and their evidence contradicted one another. Now I know the IRA never gave anyone a fair trial, but this case seems particularly dodgy. One of these deserters gave the dates when he said Connolly was giving training, but Jim O'Keefe, an FG TD from Cork, swore out an affidavitt that he had met Connolly in Cuba at the time of this supposed training. There were other many instances of "evidence" proving to either of the most flimsy kind or simply downright lies and fabrication.
So we have two choices:
1. Do we sink to the level of the IRA and say unfair trials are perfectly ok, as in IRA "kangaroo courts", or
2. Do we stay civilised and believe that everybody, regardless of objectionable the crime, political affiliation or personal beliefs of the accused are, is entitled to a fair trial?
I know which type of society I prefer.
If they do show up here - and I think they would be mad to - I wonder just what line the government will take.
That will be very interesting alright.
I have no doubt that these guys were up to something very dodgy and sinister but I still believe that if the situation arose that the government should/would refuse to extradite them because they would not be treated fairly in Columbia.
Patsh's point about getting them not getting a fair trial is a very good and relevant one.
Lionel Ritchie
17/12/2004, 12:03 PM
So we have two choices:
1. Do we sink to the level of the IRA and say unfair trials are perfectly ok, as in IRA "kangaroo courts", or
2. Do we stay civilised and believe that everybody, regardless of objectionable the crime, political affiliation or personal beliefs of the accused are, is entitled to a fair trial?
I know which type of society I preferthe world gets stranger and stranger -I find myself in agreement with patsh on this one.
While I think on the balance of probabilities these guys were up to no good -there is a greater issue here -namely that it is a much lesser evil to sometimes let the guilty walk than it is to punish the innocent.
JohnB
17/12/2004, 12:11 PM
You not only have them as 'guilty' but also have their characters summed up as 'Clowns'. It doesnt take a clown to realise you have your own bitter twisted views on Republicans.
And personally I dont for one minute believe the tragedys you outlined above as being intentional.
I'm bitter about republican murderers alright (although not republicans per se). And their loyalist brothers and sisters; because they've more in common with each other than with the rest of us.
PIRA were experts at planting bombs in areas crowded with shoppers and, then killing them unintentionally. Some might say they'd have been better off to blow up some places where there were no shoppers. PIRA employed very cunning tactics. 'Oops we killed twenty, didn't mean it'. But they knew that the effect of killing people was much greater than simply blowing up an inanimate object. Win, win I suppose, especially when there are people as gullible as yourself about.
I'll not bore you or anyone else with a list of deaths attributed to PIRA that even you would find hard to make excuses for.
JohnB
17/12/2004, 12:25 PM
So we have two choices:
1. Do we sink to the level of the IRA and say unfair trials are perfectly ok, as in IRA "kangaroo courts", or
2. Do we stay civilised and believe that everybody, regardless of objectionable the crime, political affiliation or personal beliefs of the accused are, is entitled to a fair trial?
I know which type of society I prefer.
Yip, I agree with that also. But I have no sympathy with the three and, I hope their lives are **** for years to come. Whether they are convicted or not means nothing to me in terms of their guilt. NI is littered with people involved in terrorism but who could not be tried or found guilty. I hope they rot.
The case against was always going to be hard to prove, particularly since republican terrorists are so adept at avoiding detection and FARQ tend to operate out of jungle areas. Whatever the outcome was, there would always be doubts either way.
BUT
FARQ employ PIRA tactics to murder. Three republicans found with FARQ. Sorry, but they deserve whatever they get.
dortie
17/12/2004, 12:43 PM
But they knew that the effect of killing people was much greater than simply blowing up an inanimate object. Win, win I suppose, especially when there are people as gullible as yourself about.
.
Ive never read as much nonsense in my entire life. Every Innocent life lost in an IRA act was seen by all republicans as a tragedy and a 'set-back'. Yeah it makes sense for a movement to lose support with such acts. Think about what you are saying.
Im far from gullible, I made my own mind up from what I heard and seen through my life. Wasnt hard.
Going Off-topic, but sure you have intended to do that no doubt.
But I have no sympathy with the three and, I hope their lives are **** for years to come. Whether they are convicted or not means nothing to me in terms of their guilt. NI is littered with people involved in terrorism but who could not be tried or found guilty. I hope they rot.
The case against was always going to be hard to prove, particularly since republican terrorists are so adept at avoiding detection and FARQ tend to operate out of jungle areas. Whatever the outcome was, there would always be doubts either way.
BUT
FARQ employ PIRA tactics to murder. Three republicans found with FARQ. Sorry, but they deserve whatever they get.So JohnB's Kangaroo Court is all that matters to you. You have your mind made up, and nothing will change it. I really hope you never get called for jury duty.....:rolleyes:
Rovers Fellow!
17/12/2004, 1:10 PM
Colombia is one of the most corrupt places in the world. Never mind Farc. The establisment of that country is rotten to the core. The 3 lads over there have served more than theyre sentence. Theres too many people involved in the case with its own interests, i.e. the Americans and theyre so-called war on 'terror'. They have butted in earlier in the case with evidence claiming the 3 of them were involved with farc on a certain date, a date which has since proven the 3 men werent even in Colombia. Mary Harneys comments today were a disgrace. Her and her party have done absolutely nothing for peace process and 6 counties. She's nearly as bad as Paisley Junior who today claims the men deserve to serve the 17 years. Perhaps Colombia is the place that Unionism got its ideas in running the 6 counites in the discriminative, fascist way they did for so long.
How tolerent of you...:D
True, I could have wished them death to match their victims.
So JohnB's Kangaroo Court is all that matters to you. You have your mind made up, and nothing will change it. I really hope you never get called for jury duty.....:rolleyes:
You're not getting it are you? I'm not on jury duty and I'm not therefore restricted by what is and, what is not beyond reasonable doubt. I can deal in probabilities and, it is extremely probable that the three FARCers were helping FARC to kill.
You're not getting it are you? I'm not on jury duty and I'm not therefore restricted by what is and, what is not beyond reasonable doubt. I can deal in probabilities and, it is extremely probable that the three FARCers were helping FARC to kill.Whose "probabilities"? Yours?
The trial didn't show up any of these probabilities, so it's actually predujice you are dealing in.
Every Innocent life lost in an IRA act was seen by all republicans as a tragedy and a 'set-back'.
The tragedy is that you actually believe that. Even if you think that Omagh, Enniskillen, Warrington, La Mon etc etc are excusable (although how you can is beyond me), the truth is that the IRA in its various guises have murdered hundreds of the people it supposedly protects (about a quarter of its victims according to CAIN).
Now, we're meant to have sympathy for members of this organisation who (lets face it FFS) have been passing on their knowledge?
Whose "probabilities"? Yours?
The trial didn't show up any of these probabilities, so it's actually predujice you are dealing in.
They've just been convicted, but if you prefer the judgement of the trial, be my guest.
So now you're claiming that these three men have victims???
Go finish your paper round son...
Ah good, becoming irritated. Yes, they do have victims. Those people in Bogota and beyond who have died because of PIRA's expertise.
gspain
17/12/2004, 2:45 PM
I find it hard to have any sympathy for them or indeed to think of another reason why they could have been there. I don't think SF/IRA have given any credible reason why they were there. Your average bird watcher does not go to a warzone on a false passport not that I know any bird watchers. :D
I think it is highly probable that they were there to train FARC in bomb making particularly as one is the elading IRA weapons expert.
Was there enough evidence to convict them in a court of law here? Probably not however You visit a country and you are bound by the legal system there.
They deserve a fair trial, whatever reason they had for being there (for which is hard to find a justifable reason for travelling on false passports).
Dortie, has the IRA ever apologised for killing civilians? I can only remember them/ sinn fein saying they "regret" the killings rather than actually apologising....
Yet another sheep lead by the nose by MI6 propaganda...
you must be takin all those drugs the scum fein/ira are takin off all those dealers and selling themselves :rolleyes:
17yrs in a bannana republic jail would be tough lets be honest here if you were in their postion you would do a runner too .
but in saying that these 3 men 1 of whom him and his family live 5 min away are prominent scum fein members in my area
WHAT EXACTLY WERE 3 SCUM FEINERS DOING TRAVELLING ON FALSE PASSPORTS IN COUNTRY KNOWN FOR ITS BRUTAL TERRORISM :confused:
CAN ANYONE ANSWER ME THAT
exile
18/12/2004, 12:05 PM
Well 'tuff guy'. If it walks like and sheep and posts like a sheep then it probably is a sheep...;)
MI6 must be proud...
if it murders tortures and kills like a terrorist then it must be terrorist ;) :rolleyes: well i suppose it could be a nazi too
exile
18/12/2004, 12:55 PM
Are you talking about the reign of death and torture carried out by the Michael Collins on the British forces and its agents during 1921 here...;)
silvio i have had a look through your posts and you have had not one contructive thing to say all you seem to be doing is goading people your obviuosly a person of very limited thinking the people who have argued for pro sinn fein have at least something constructive to say.
so you keyboard warrior why dont you **** off and be an idiot somwhere else
Your floundering in your own twisted, incosistant logic sunshine. i'll leave you alone as its becomming embarassing...
you still here key board warrior yyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnn nnnnn
Partizan
18/12/2004, 9:36 PM
I have the feeling the 3 boys are in Cuba having being smuggled out through Venezuela. However I'd be surprised if they turned up in Ireland since INTERPOL have issued an internatonal arrest for their capture and the political pressure heaped on the Irish government in particular from Dubya would be too much for Bertie.
Thats my ten cents worth, but then again sh1t happens.
liam88
18/12/2004, 9:58 PM
Lads no names mentioned but let's respect each other here-some stuff is getting a bit personal and obviously upsetting to some people.
Hopefully some JUSTICE is going to come out of this-i.e. a proper investigation is going to be carried out and (if necessary) suitable sentance give................heck, the people of Columbia and Northern Ireland have both been denied justice before now :(
Tuff Paddy......I hope none of us ever have to see what you saw, don't really no what else to say-cept you were v. brave being there.
dortie
19/12/2004, 6:27 PM
The tragedy is that you actually believe that.
Yep, I do actually believe that. 100% !
And the likes of you wont change my mind either.
dortie
19/12/2004, 6:31 PM
Ah good, becoming irritated. Yes, they do have victims. Those people in Bogota and beyond who have died because of PIRA's expertise.
Why dont you mention the 100s of Catholic deaths that were caused by Loyalist and British State collusion/expertise
Theres something closer to home for you to study.
CollegeTillIDie
19/12/2004, 6:40 PM
Why dont you mention the 100s of Catholic deaths that were caused by Loyalist and British State collusion/expertise
Theres something closer to home for you to study.
Or the Dublin and Monaghan Bombing victims who seem to be conveniently forgotten by people in this jurisdiction?
Assuming the three boys are innocent of the charges, as one of them has a rock solid alibi. What the FARC were they doing in Colombia in the first place? Especially in bandito held territory... hardly a high spot for tourism
JohnB
20/12/2004, 11:03 AM
Why dont you mention the 100s of Catholic deaths that were caused by Loyalist and British State collusion/expertise
Theres something closer to home for you to study.
I've no problem mentioning it or condemning it and, if someone was defending loyalist or army murderers in the same way that you defend IRA murderers, I'd challenge them. Dortie, you defend republican murders by employing whataboutery. That's because they are indefensible. And I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm challenging you because I've read several of tour posts on this site and you seem to think that because you come from NI that you are somehow the last word on what's what regarding republican murders.
dortie
20/12/2004, 11:13 AM
I'm challenging you because I've read several of tour posts on this site and you seem to think that because you come from NI that you are somehow the last word on what's what regarding republican murders.
Never said that in any of my posts. You have your opinions and I have mine (Along with 55% of the Catholic vote up here).
I simply try to give an alternative to the usual biased anti-republican remarks.
Funny how many people were saying what a great justice system they had when the 3 boys were cleared at first instance. Any Court over there is about as impartial as Lord Denning. The only thing about all of this that surprised me is that they were cleared at first instance.
They deserve the right to a fair trial, if only the ICC could handle these type of case.
In saying that Im fairly confident that they'd be found guilty if they had a fair trial but John B I promise you if you ever get wrongly accused of a crime you'll thank you're lucky stars that we have a fair system of Justice where correct procedure is important.
Take Gilligan. Everyone knows he did it, but it could not be proved and the Judge correctly threw the case out. There simply wasnt the reliable evidence there required to convict him.
patsh
20/12/2004, 11:58 AM
Funny how many people were saying what a great justice system they had when the 3 boys were cleared at first instance.Were there people that said that Sean?
From the very start, there were serious reservations about the Colombian "justice" system. For years, both the UN and Amnesty have continually raised questions and pointed up instances of severe abuses of human rights in that country.
On another point, it have been mentioned many, many times on this thread that FARC are "terrorists". It might be pointed out that ones man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. There is plenty of evidence to show that the Colombian Government is just as bloody, ruthless and utterly corrupt as the FARC.
It has also been mentioned many times that the FARC are funded by the "drugs trade". It might be pointed out that the entire Colombian economic system is virtually dependent on the cocaine business,
1. by being directly involved in growing, harvesting, selling of cocaine, or
2. by being funded by the US to fight the growing, harvesting, selling of cocaine
and therefore, the government and the civil and justice systems of that country are also very much dependent on the "drugs trade".
It is very hard to see a plausible explaination for those guys presence in the country. However, contrary to what some of the more ignorant members of certain parties in our government might say,
a) they have not recieved a fair trial, by any accepted standard of what that means,
b) the appeal was by the Prosecution not something which would be accepted here either, and
c) the decision in that appeal appears to be entirely politically motivated.
Nobody would stand for any of that in this country, so I don't see why we should stand for it in Colombia.
In saying that Im fairly confident that they'd be found guilty if they had a fair trial but John B I promise you if you ever get wrongly accused of a crime you'll thank you're lucky stars that we have a fair system of Justice where correct procedure is important.
I believe that everyone is entitled to justice and a fair trial. However, as I stated before, I'm not a member of a jury and I can therefore have an opinion based on probability. I've no sympathy for anyone who passes on expertise in killing, which I believe these three were doing. The Colombian government is corrupt and needs to be brought to task, but killing shoppers is not the way to go about it.
I read suggestions that these 3 could be granted release under the GF agreement as "on the run volunteer" which would mean the IRA would have to admit they working on their behalf which they have denied so far...
I presume the irish government had legal observers at their trial so any points about unfairness should surely go thru that process.
I presume the irish government had legal observers at their trial so any points about unfairness should surely go thru that process.The following were definitely there:
Senator Mary Henry, from FF, was at most of the trial and wrote six extensive reports on it,
Finian McGrath an independent TD was at the trial,
Amnesty had observers,
the Irish Times had Deaglán De Breadún
and I'm fairly sure there were various visits by cross-party delegation(s).
Again there, seems to be an implicit doubt that there was unfairness in the trial. The trial has been condemned as blatently unfair by all of the above, none of whom have any axe to grind on behalf of Sinn Fein.
Were there people that said that Sean?
Sorry didnt make myself clear. People were more than willing to accept the first instance verdict on the grounds that they were found innocent on the 'evidence'. What Im getting at is that the thing should never had proceeded in the first place based on the poor case and serious lack of "reasonable doubt" evidence. The prosecution didnt bother constructing a proper case because they never the trial would eventually end in a pre determinded way.
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