Uefa ponders third club competition

[Hitman]

European football leaders have discussed the possibility of creating a third club competition.

At a meeting of the 54 Uefa members on Wednesday, they explored the merits of a new competition for teams who fail to advance from the qualifying rounds of the Champions League or the second-tier Europa League.

They also considered whether the competition could be reserved for teams from smaller countries who never participate in the group stages of the existing cups.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/sep/16/uefa-third-competition-europa-champions-league


It might mean more opportunities for League of Ireland sides, though the way things are going England's co-efficient might be heading towards ours too.

[nigel-harps1954]

The Europa League is already frowned upon by bigger leagues. This would be the most unattractive prospect for them and prize money would be reflected in this. Hardly worth the effort really.

[outspoken]

Would be fantastic for LOI teams but then again would our clubs just settle and be happy to compete in this 3rd tier comp instead of pushing themselves to try and qualify for the Europa and CL. That could be the danger with this.

[D24Saint]

The only way that would happen if the money was better in the new competition compared to progress in the qualifying of the champions league & imo that wouldn't be possible.This proposed competition would only work with TV companies on board & if it wasn't played the same week as other european competitions.

[Real ale Madrid]

I'd rather they brought back the Cup-winners-cup.

[Mr A]

Anything that spreads the money around to smaller nations a bit more is to be welcomed. But will those big nations allow some crumbs to fall to make it worthwhile?

[disgruntled]

It might mean more opportunities for League of Ireland sides, though the way things are going England's co-efficient might be heading towards ours too.

We had three competitions back in the day with the European Cup, Cup Winners Cup & UEFA / Fairs Cup but they decided to change all that. Are they now thinking "What we had back then was better" ?
What has killed European Competitions & made it the annual bore it has become is the seeding they came up with. Hard to believe that the Zagreb team that beat Arsenal last night had to go though two qualifying rounds & a play off to get to last night. Despite all that their stadium was only half full.
Gone for ever are the days when you could be drawn against one of the top European clubs, the gate receipts from which could keep you going for a whole season.
Instead we get the annual trip to outer Mongolia or some such place. The reason for that of course is that the top European clubs got together & decided they would boycott the UEFA competitions unless they got their own way & tv money gave them the power to do it.
This third competition if it comes to pass will no doubt in time become the only European competition where clubs from the smaller countries will be allowed to compete in. They will get the opportunity to share the crumbs which fall from the big table among themselves & let the real money for the big clubs only.
Tv money has changed the European competitions forever & not for the best I might add.

[disgruntled]

Would be fantastic for LOI teams but then again would our clubs just settle and be happy to compete in this 3rd tier comp instead of pushing themselves to try and qualify for the Europa and CL. That could be the danger with this.

No more dangerous that what has happened to various Irish clubs who have gone bust chasing the dream of Champions League group qualification.

[Straightstory]

A knockout Cup Winners Cup (unseeded - like the way it used to be) would surely be attractive. The bigger clubs wouldn't have to play so many matches in group stages and smaller clubs like Irish ones would have the possibility a glamour tie against some of the bigger European teams.

[Nesta99]

The reason for that of course is that the top European clubs got together & decided they would boycott the UEFA competitions unless they got their own way & tv money gave them the power to do it.


It was more to put to bed a European super league that the top clubs would compete in rather than their domestic leagues as proposed by moneymen. So UEFA came up with a watered down version with financial backing that suited the domestic associations, clubs and UEFA, and in the process left us minnows behind without the chance of a marquee draw.

[gufcfan]

I'd rather they brought back the Cup-winners-cup.
I'd rather the Champions League is was the "Champions" League.

[Sean South]

. Despite all that their stadium was only half full.

Their fans are on protest at moment against the owner of the club. Most tickets were freebies given out.

[outspoken]

No more dangerous that what has happened to various Irish clubs who have gone bust chasing the dream of Champions League group qualification.

Fair point but as some are saying on here the money really would have to be worthwhile because as we've seen the travel expenses can almost be on par with what you get in return sometimes.

[Ezeikial]

Fair point but as some are saying on here the money really would have to be worthwhile because as we've seen the travel expenses can almost be on par with what you get in return sometimes.

Not so - there is no away trip that would cost anywhere near the minimum amount currently available in UEFA competitions

[outspoken]

Not so - there is no away trip that would cost anywhere near the minimum amount currently available in UEFA competitions

But the money in this 3rd competition could be total gack that's what I was getting at

[brendy_éire]

It could be a decent idea, as a safety net tournament for leagues like ourselves. Who wouldn't want the chance to go into a competition with the likes of Finland, Albania, Macedonia, Wales, the Irish League, etc.? LoI clubs would actually have a decent chance of winning it. So as long as the money was there, and it was finished by the end of the year, it'd be a nice wee boost for us.
The danger would be if they also allowed teams from the higher leagues in if they didn't qualify for the CL/EL. If a non-Cl/EL qualifying English, German, Italian team got in, they probably wouldn't give it much attention and still win regardless. Though it'd be hard to balance excluding some leageus, whilst still allowing lower ones access to the CL/EL.

[ger121]

Reeks of the Inter two bob Cup to me.

[Acornvilla]

Was thinking about the teams who would qualify. So barring a great day for the parish, we'd have every Irish, Welsh and N.I clubs in the pot, with a load of crap teams from other small nations, and a few clubs from eastern Europe no one has ever heard of.
Lets say they only entered teams who went out in round 1/2 in both CL and EL, the best(most notable) teams I spotted who went out at that round from a quick scan excluding our lot are:

St. Johnstone (SCO)
Litex Lovech (BUL)
Go Ahead Eagles (NED)
Randers (DEN)
Inverness CT (SCO)
Stjarnan (ISL)
Ludogoretz (BUL)
Maribor (SLO)

If you add in 3rd round losers from the EL, I think the quality of the competition would be worryingly strong, from a 'for the small nations' standpoint. Many of these teams would have no interest/still destroy our lot.

FC Zurich (SUI)
Aberdeen (SCO)
Copenhagen (DEN)
Vorskla (UKR)
BASAKSEHIR & Trabzonspor (TUR)
Debrechen (HUN)
Sampdoria (ITA)
Sturn Graz (AUT)
Elfsborg (SWE)
Vitesse (NED)
A Limasoll & Amonia (CYP)
AIK (SWE)
West Ham (ENG)
Guimaraes (POR)

If you added in 4th round losers, you'd be throwing in the likes of Southampton, Young Boys, Brondby, Standard Liege, Steaua Bucharest.

So, I figure it'd have to be strictly only for clubs who went out in the 1st or 2nd round of both comps or it would end up being very bloated, filled with a lot of clubs who have no interest being there and with some bad miss matches.

[legendz]

3rd placed CL teams who miss out on the CL Round of 16 enter the Europa League Round of 32.
CL play-off losers enter the Europa League group stages.
CL Q3 losers enter the Europa League play-offs.
By that logic should UEFA enter the CL Q2 losers into Europa League Q3?

38 league champions enter the Champions League qualifiers before CL Q3.
21 league champions are knocked out of Europe before CL Q3. Should the Europa League safety net should be extended for these teams as well? It would mean the likes of Dundalk last year would get at least 4 games in Europe. League champions in my own humble opinion should be guaranteed more than one round of European action.

An alternative option:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/uefa-considering-third-european-club-6457222

If UEFA are to bring in a third competition, the only teams I would see possibly fitting the criteria of coming from lower leagues and requiring more European experience are the 21 league champions knocked out before CL Q3.

In the article about the mooted competition, it was suggested that the competition could be completed before the end of the respective calendar year without going into the next year. CL Q3, CL play-offs and CL group stage take place of 10 matchdays. 21 league champions could complete a knock-out competition in the same timescale.

I suppose some questions of many are:
Would the 21 league champions be enthused by such a competition? What would be a fair reward for winning such a competition? Should the winner be guaranteed a place in the following season's Champions League Q3 or play-off round? An automatic CL group stage spot would not be appropriate for the level of competition. A CL play-off spot would at least guarantee a Europa group stage place. It could be a decent carrot for teams at that level?


Was thinking about the teams who would qualify. So barring a great day for the parish, we'd have every Irish, Welsh and N.I clubs in the pot, with a load of crap teams from other small nations, and a few clubs from eastern Europe no one has ever heard of.
Lets say they only entered teams who went out in round 1/2 in both CL and EL, the best(most notable) teams I spotted who went out at that round from a quick scan excluding our lot are:

So, I figure it'd have to be strictly only for clubs who went out in the 1st or 2nd round of both comps or it would end up being very bloated, filled with a lot of clubs who have no interest being there and with some bad miss matches.
Expanding on what I have said above, if as you suggest the added EL 1st and 2nd round losers as well, you would be looking at about 105 clubs. In a knock-out format, 105 clubs would equate to 7 two-legged rounds. If they played on the same weeks as CL Q3, CL PO and CL group stage, there would be 5 rounds before Christmas and the semi-finals and final after Christmas. It might be enough to just enter the 21 league champions of the lower nations into a shorter tournament.

[pineapple stu]

This is going ahead so - https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018/1202/1014714-uefa-to-launch-third-tier-european-club-competition/

Europa League third place teams will drop down into the knock-outs, and the winner will get a spot in the Europa League.

Starting in 2021; 32 teams in the groups. No word yet as to whether this means more clubs in Europe - and where they'll come from - or if it just means the CL and EL will be more restricted

[bennocelt]

This is going ahead so - https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2018/1202/1014714-uefa-to-launch-third-tier-european-club-competition/

Europa League third place teams will drop down into the knock-outs, and the winner will get a spot in the Europa League.

Starting in 2021; 32 teams in the groups. No word yet as to whether this means more clubs in Europe - and where they'll come from - or if it just means the CL and EL will be more restricted

This has another epic UCD assault on Europe written all over it, eh p stu? lol

[holidaysong]

Details are here in the access list: https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/General/02/58/61/42/2586142_DOWNLOAD.pdf

Basically good for the champion (as champions now have 2 safety nets).

Terrible for non-champions as no way for them to get into the UEL other than win UEL2.

[Nesta99]

What is far more important is what colour Cork City's 3rd EL2 away shirt might be.......

[seand]

I didn't realise how dramatic the change was.... basically they're kicking everyone from countries like Scotland, Croatia, Sweden and down to Ireland, Finland, NI, Wales etc out of the EL to make it easier for the likes of Ajax, Villarreal and Everton. If, and it's a big if, the new competition is financed as well as the EL qualifying is now it'll not make a huge amount of difference to the LoI qualifiers- indeed it'd make group qualification a realistic target. If it's not financed generously it'll be a disaster for the league (and similar leagues), especially when it looks like there's even more protection (and therefore cold hard cash) for the small countries champions. If Celtic/Bate/Dinamo Zagreb/TNS/HJK Helsinki keep winning titles it has the potential to make it almost impossible for the rest to compete.... and obviously if any LoI club could win 6 or 7 titles in a short period of time they could well disappear over the horizon

[Buller]

So all of our current EL spots will change to EL2?!

[pineapple stu]

Looks that way, yeah.

Is the EL going from 64 teams in the groups to 32?

Would have been nice to be able to use the extra tournament to invite one extra club per country in Europe.

[El-Pietro]

Looks that way, yeah.

Is the EL going from 64 teams in the groups to 32?

Would have been nice to be able to use the extra tournament to invite one extra club per country in Europe.
48 to 32 I think.

[seand]

48 to 32.... 12 groups of 4 down to 8, with the 8 group winners into the Last 16 and the 8 runners-up playing the 8 Champions League third placers to join them, it seems.

But yeh, basically 90% of the current Europa League participants are being fecked out into the new competition

[sbgawa]

I didn't realise how dramatic the change was.... basically they're kicking everyone from countries like Scotland, Croatia, Sweden and down to Ireland, Finland, NI, Wales etc out of the EL to make it easier for the likes of Ajax, Villarreal and Everton. If, and it's a big if, the new competition is financed as well as the EL qualifying is now it'll not make a huge amount of difference to the LoI qualifiers- indeed it'd make group qualification a realistic target. If it's not financed generously it'll be a disaster for the league (and similar leagues), especially when it looks like there's even more protection (and therefore cold hard cash) for the small countries champions. If Celtic/Bate/Dinamo Zagreb/TNS/HJK Helsinki keep winning titles it has the potential to make it almost impossible for the rest to compete.... and obviously if any LoI club could win 6 or 7 titles in a short period of time they could well disappear over the horizon

Jeez could you boys have picked the right time to come I to the money!

[ToberonaTornado]

did i see somewhere a Thursday 3pm or 3.30pm k/o for these games in uel2 ?
Good cash involved but that k/o time is stoopid!

[sbgawa]

Money would have to be good as that kick off time would kill the gate.
Unless it's bohs in Europe as they don't work. Or is Thursday dole day ? Could be a problem :) :)

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

did i see somewhere a Thursday 3pm or 3.30pm k/o for these games in uel2 ?
Good cash involved but that k/o time is stoopid!

4.30 kick off

[bennocelt]

I only noticed this too, that the Europa will be shortened and no extra europe places. Were Uefa slow to publicize this part or what? Dont know what to think of it to be honest, could be great or could be another intertwobob cup.

[Straightstory]

So basically clubs like Valencia and Zenit and Everton (not exactly top ranking, but established and familiar to the bar-stool type supporter) are now literally 'out of our (Europa) league'? Irish clubs will now be playing teams from countries Luxembourg and Lithuania with no prospect at getting at the 'big boys'?? Can't see this going down well withe Dundalk's owners, for example - or any other potential foreign investors. Is this really the future, or have I missed something?

[marinobohs]

Money would have to be good as that kick off time would kill the gate.
Unless it's bohs in Europe as they don't work. Or is Thursday dole day ? Could be a problem :) :)

probably about the right time in Australia, so shams owner can watch the game live ;)

[marinobohs]

I only noticed this too, that the Europa will be shortened and no extra europe places. Were Uefa slow to publicize this part or what? Dont know what to think of it to be honest, could be great or could be another intertwobob cup.

If enough money is put into it the competition could have a good upside for LOI club - further safety net for LOI winners and possibility of further/longer involvement for LOI runner up.But it will probably mean the end of any chance of 'attractive' opposition (i.e. big name clubs). It will all depend on what's its worth to qualify for the UEL2 group stage.

[pineapple stu]

So basically clubs like Valencia and Zenit and Everton (not exactly top ranking, but established and familiar to the bar-stool type supporter) are now literally 'out of our (Europa) league'? Irish clubs will now be playing teams from countries Luxembourg and Lithuania with no prospect at getting at the 'big boys'?? Can't see this going down well withe Dundalk's owners, for example - or any other potential foreign investors. Is this really the future, or have I missed something?
The flip side I suppose is that there's more chance of the Irish side getting out of their group. A last-48 round tie might spark some interest.

Though the reality is Irish clubs have gotten to two group stages in 26 years; we're hardly affected in reality. What big Europa League draws have we had in qualifying? (Leave out Cork v Legia as that was really a CL tie)

I like the idea of smaller countries getting to the group stages; it could turn Europe into more than just a four-week thing in pre-season and could spark local interest.

I would rather more clubs qualified for Europe as a result. Could Dundalk really end up playing in all three competitions? That's daft and just takes a qualifying spot from someone else.

And 4:30 kick-offs - presumably for group stages only? - is obviously mad

[Mr A]

I hate this idea of clubs failing in one competition and parachuting into the other. For example third place teams in EL groups going into Europa League knockouts is just daft. Less against it in the earlier rounds for smaller countries but the die is being loaded more and more in favour of the big clubs all the time.

[sbgawa]

So basically clubs like Valencia and Zenit and Everton (not exactly top ranking, but established and familiar to the bar-stool type supporter) are now literally 'out of our (Europa) league'? Irish clubs will now be playing teams from countries Luxembourg and Lithuania with no prospect at getting at the 'big boys'?? Can't see this going down well withe Dundalk's owners, for example - or any other potential foreign investors. Is this really the future, or have I missed something?

I'd say the Dundalk owners are doing handstands, they have a bigger budget than everyone else and the Champions are only 1 win away from group stages every year...and thanks to the recent run they will probably be seeded for that match....

[EatYerGreens]

I hate this idea of clubs failing in one competition and parachuting into the other. For example third place teams in EL groups going into Europa League knockouts is just daft. Less against it in the earlier rounds for smaller countries but the die is being loaded more and more in favour of the big clubs all the time.

But that's what everything UEFA does is about.

They're fighting a fruitless incremental struggle against a breakaway European Super League. And instead they're introducing one by stealth very very slowly in an attempt to keep the big clubs on board. But I suspect they'll dump UEFA when it suits them any way - hence why it's inevitably fruitless in the longer term for UEFA to struggle to retain relevance in this way.

[EatYerGreens]

I'd say the Dundalk owners are doing handstands, they have a bigger budget than everyone else and the Champions are only 1 win away from group stages every year...and thanks to the recent run they will probably be seeded for that match....

I'd agree with this. The Dundalk owners are only in it for the money, and this new structure is likely to buy their support.

[marinobohs]

But that's what everything UEFA does is about.

They're fighting a fruitless incremental struggle against a breakaway European Super League. And instead they're introducing one by stealth very very slowly in an attempt to keep the big clubs on board. But I suspect they'll dump UEFA when it suits them any way - hence why it's inevitably fruitless in the longer term for UEFA to struggle to retain relevance in this way.

All about T.V. money, and the fact is the 'big clubs' are what attracts the vast bulk of TV revenue.Smaller clubs and the mad FIFA/UEFA policy of recognizing countries that re not even countries (thereby increasing number of clubs further) has led to so many clubs that there is a need to filter them out. Big clubs would rather a friendly against another big (ie money attracting) club than have to turn out against the minnows so the aforementioned minnows have to be removed.Put them in a separate league and throw a few bob at it so TV can have more big/attractive ties that boost viewing figures.
Right now there is enough money floating about to follow this policy (and throw minnows enough to keep them quiet) but if TV even finds another cash cow to milk we might see some real change.

[holidaysong]

I'd say the Dundalk owners are doing handstands, they have a bigger budget than everyone else and the Champions are only 1 win away from group stages every year...and thanks to the recent run they will probably be seeded for that match....

Winning two ties would be required but I agree with your overall point. If a team was to win the league for a few years consecutively, you could easily see them pull away from the rest of the league with the double safety net. Right now Dundalk are best placed to be that team, so this can only be music to the ears of our owners.

[sbgawa]

Winning the league in 2020 will be potentially the biggest bonus ever in Irish football.
Interesting times.
There are 10 clubs (9 excluding the proletariet) who with a big backer might be tempted to have a run at the league.
The boom is back

[marinobohs]

Winning the league in 2020 will be potentially the biggest bonus ever in Irish football.
Interesting times.
There are 10 clubs (9 excluding the proletariet) who with a big backer might be tempted to have a run at the league.
The boom is back
Time for Shams to sell the other half of their 'members owned' :rolleyes: club ?

[sbgawa]

Time for Shams to sell the other half of their 'members owned' :rolleyes: club ?

Do you have any other records ?

On a serious note i do think potential investors will look at the smaller leagues as opportunities to get regular European group stage football.
Leaving us aside look at the TNS in Wales even the Gibraltar league (parachute in a few Spaniards)
Going to be interesting in 2020

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

How much money for making the group stages of EL2 or whatever they’re calling it?

[micls]

How much money for making the group stages of EL2 or whatever they’re calling it?

They haven't announced that yet

[sbgawa]

The UEFA guy was quoted as saying people wouldn't be dissapointed .....means nothing I know but even half of 're Europa league money would be massive

[Nesta99]

The financial gain with the additional potential for progression could make up for a smaller pot of money. Is it possible that there could be a parachute from CL to EL1 and then to EL2 also if a club loses in qualifying rounds. So hypothetically Finn Harps romp to a league win, lose in CLQR1, drop in to EL1QR2 lose and then in to EL2 also. I picked harps as the hypothetical as obviously Dundalk will win the league and be in CL group stages so at minimum 3rd in the group will be in the last 32 or 16 of EL1!!

Seriously though its is getting very like a European Superleague and promotion/relegation is based on a 10 year cycle of results. From a LoI point of view as long as champions go in to CL and have their tie, then at EL would it make that much difference whether its EL1 or EL2 as the chance or progressing in EL2 mitigates against the lesser finncial gain for losing in QR1 of EL1 if that were the case? There will still also be the small chance of drawing a former heavyweight from the likes of Scotland?

This is not going to seem particularly sound thinking but I find the prospect of playing in EL2 almost traditionalist. Like there is a kind of honesty to the competition where teams might be legitimately competative. Not quite like a one off tie where a minnow can prevail like the old EC/UC/CWC but while some might see it as crumbs from the table for leagues like our own it could create a possibility of driving up revenue regardless of the FAI and their indifference.