View Full Version : setup next year
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=94&si=1300991&issue_id=11790
Meanwhile, Athlone's Paddy McCaul looks set to be elected temporary eircom League chairman at a Board of Control meeting this evening. A number of First Division clubs want the Athlone secretary to take the job on an interim basis until the AGM in March following the resignation of Declan Ó Luanaigh.
There are a number of other major issues to be discussed, most importantly, how the League will be run next season. With the reversion to a 12-team Premier Division, it had been expected that there would be a 33-game season.
"A 33-game season is an inequitable system and a club like ours could suffer if there is a reduction on the number of home games," said Shelbourne secretary Ollie Byrne.
It is expected that the 10-team First Division will be run off over a 36-game season with just one automatic promotion spot and one play-off spot available.
Would be good for the three teams that went up, at least two of them, have a very good chance of staying up.i think 33 games is more than enough., its hard to fit all the games in as it is.
Would be good for the three teams that went up, at least two of them, have a very good chance of staying up.i think 33 games is more than enough., its hard to fit all the games in as it is.
It's just w@nk not having the same number of home and away games against each other.....
joeSoap
09/12/2004, 12:00 PM
It's just w@nk not having the same number of home and away games against each other.....
So, the solution would be a 22 game season which is too short, or a 44 game one which is too long. You can't have it every way :ball:
Cosmo
09/12/2004, 12:19 PM
Here, i dont know if this has been mentioned before but does anybody know when the season starts?? (even a rough idea).
Btw I agree with ye Macy on the playing teams 3 times a season thing but as said above unless it was kept as a 10 team premier (which is way too small), the only other option is to dramatically increase the number of teams in the Premier.
I would be in favour of that and would try and bring in some amateur clubs (well amateur in name anyway - theyre probably better run than most EL clubs!!) into the EL to make up the numbers (like some of these clubs seem to have better facilities than the majority of 1st division clubs anyway!!)
A face
09/12/2004, 12:24 PM
Actually ... does anyone know the official side of things ... when with the league give us the fixtures. Have they given any sort of time frame .... they surely wont leave it as late as last year .... would there be any harm in having the fixtures this side of Christmas !! .... i know that is ambitious but what reasons are there for not getting them before that ??
anto eile
09/12/2004, 12:25 PM
play everyone 3 times then split the top and bottom halves in two, so teams play another 5 games.then its 38 games (more revenue) . and it could be fixtured so that teams play an even amount of home and away games
Schumi
09/12/2004, 12:26 PM
Here, i dont know if this has been mentioned before but does anybody know when the season starts?? (even a rough idea).
Last season started on the 19th of March so maybe Friday the 18th next year? That's only 14 weeks away tomorrow! :eek:
Schumi
09/12/2004, 12:27 PM
play everyone 3 times then split the top and bottom halves in two, so teams play another 5 games.then its 38 games (more revenue) . and it could be fixtured so that teams play an even amount of home and away games
The problem with that though is that you could end up playing a team 3 times at home and only once away or vice versa.
paudie
09/12/2004, 12:30 PM
play everyone 3 times then split the top and bottom halves in two, so teams play another 5 games.then its 38 games (more revenue) . and it could be fixtured so that teams play an even amount of home and away games
I was going to say that could happen. Especially if some clubs get together to support it.
Splitting the league near the end isn't ideal, but playing 33 games isn't either.
tomsoc
09/12/2004, 12:30 PM
The official line is nothing is decided until the AGM in Feb. But the league will "probably" start on the same weekend as for 2004 (as Schumi said).
Fixture lists, promotion/relegation won't be known until after the AGM.
holidaysong
09/12/2004, 12:31 PM
play everyone 3 times then split the top and bottom halves in two, so teams play another 5 games.then its 38 games (more revenue) . and it could be fixtured so that teams play an even amount of home and away games
That wouldn't really work because you could still end up with the top six being the teams that played one extra home game and the bottom six being the teams that had one less. Then when the league splits you would be unable to even out the amount of home games played by each club.
You would need to play 22 times and then split into 6 and 6 play 5 home and away and end up with each club having 32 games - 16 home, 16 away. You lose one game in the season but at least it is fair for everyone!
pineapple stu
09/12/2004, 12:33 PM
play everyone 3 times then split the top and bottom halves in two, so teams play another 5 games.then its 38 games (more revenue) . and it could be fixtured so that teams play an even amount of home and away games
They did that for two years back in the mid-90s but it got dropped. I assume (though you can't be sure!) that there was a good reason it was dropped (i.e. that it wasn't working out), and so it won't be back.
Slight variation on that would be play two rounds of matches (i.e. 22 games), then split and play two more rounds, with a total of 32 games and a guarantee that you'd play teams the same number of times home and away. But that gives all the usual problems with the split system - lack of big games for smaller clubs, teams missing out by a small margin on the top half and having nothing to play for, etc. The 33-game system isn't perfect - and having played Dundalk, Kildare, Bray and Harps away twice this season, as well as having one extra away game, we know as well as anyone! - but there doesn't seem to be an alternative (bearing in mind that I don't agree with the ten-team Premier).
pineapple stu
09/12/2004, 12:33 PM
Echo! :D
holidaysong
09/12/2004, 12:39 PM
Echo! :D
Great minds think alike and all that... :D
anto eile
09/12/2004, 12:53 PM
fair enough it has its drawbacks, i was just trying to contribute to the possibilites/alternatives. the top/bottom split is what they do in scotland afaik
Neish
09/12/2004, 12:54 PM
Fixture lists, promotion/relegation won't be known until after the AGM.
Got a txt from the Eircom league service saying that was to be decided on tonight thursday 9/12/04. It satated that a 1 up 1 down and a playoff between 2nd in 1st div and 2nd last in premier was most likely
Although the txts have been wrong on ocassion in the past
pineapple stu
09/12/2004, 12:55 PM
The top/bottom split is what they do in Scotland afaik
Yeah, that's right. Think one year recently Celtic had the title won before the split, which completely defeated the point!
Incidentally, with all the talk about teams who get the extra away game almost never winning the league, and the worry about Shels dominating the league in hte next few years, is the current set-up such a bad thing?
Don't know if I agree with that myself even, but it's an interesting point...
"A 33-game season is an inequitable system and a club like ours could suffer if there is a reduction on the number of home games," said Shelbourne secretary Ollie Byrne.WHat does he mean like a "club like ours"?
Is he implying that there are other clubs who would not suffer because of a reduction in home games?
If $hels get Bray, UCD, Waterford, Derry, Harps and Drogs at home twice next season, gates would not be great for those games and we'd hear the piggie squeal then......
Somehow though, I don't think $hels will have to travel to Dalyer, the Cross, or the Brandywell twice next season.
The other point about this f*ckup of 2 to 1 games is travelling expenses. City, Harps, Derry or Waterford could concieveably have to travel to Dublin 14 times next season (Drogs and Bray included as they are more or less Dublin), yet get only 7 home gates in return to pay for all that travelling.
After the disgraceful fixture arrangements for City last season, I don't trust any of those f*ckers and the list should be circulated to clubs by the first week in January at the latest, so that any complaints/objections can be sorted out well in advance.
It shows just what a total joke the legaue is that we can't have the list before Christmas, we all know which teams are playing in what division
NY Hoop
09/12/2004, 1:04 PM
Muppets should have left it the way it was. 18 home and 18 away in a 10 team competitive league.
One step forward and 2 steps back!
Start it first weekend of march and finish it second last sunday in october with Cup Final the following sunday. But then that makes sense :eek:
KOH
10 team league is a definite no no for me anyway :rolleyes:
Schumi
09/12/2004, 1:19 PM
Muppets should have left it the way it was. 18 home and 18 away in a 10 team competitive league.
One step forward and 2 steps back!
Start it first weekend of march and finish it second last sunday in october with Cup Final the following sunday. But then that makes sense :eek:
Not too keen on a 10-team league but the timing point is dead right. The cup final should be the last game and the season should start earlier to avoid games well into November.
harps1954
09/12/2004, 1:44 PM
The league is due to start in mid March and end in mid November with the Cup Final on the October Bank Holiday weekend.
Personally, I would go the same way as Scotland with a split after the third round of fixtures. So after the third round of fixtures, teams would have five games still to play. Basically the teams you played away from home twice during the 33 game season, you would have at home during this mini-league and vice-versa. That would leave every team with 38 games with 19 home and 19 away. They can do it successfully enough in Scotland, I'm sure the eL could arrange the same here. That would mean five rounds of mid week fixtures during the season or start the season a week or two earlier to avoid too many midweek games.
Also, and I think this was mentioned earlier in the season, I think teams in European should be scheduled to play one another around the times of the European fixtures. This was mean postponements would only effect the teams in Europe and not nearly the entire Premier Division as it did on occassions last season.
Anyway, only my views.
jimhacker
09/12/2004, 1:45 PM
10 team league is a definite no no for me anyway :rolleyes:
Agree fully - playing teams four times a season plus cups etc is ridiculous
NY Hoop
09/12/2004, 1:52 PM
Agree fully - playing teams four times a season plus cups etc is ridiculous
Not really. It has to be 4 or 2 and it simply cannot be 2 because then you would need a 16 team premier and that wont work for several reasons.
The 10 team league was competitive with NO meaningless games. With a 12 team league especially if only the 11th and 12th team going down there will be meaningless games.
Playing each other 3 times IS ridiculous IMO.
KOH
pineapple stu
09/12/2004, 2:01 PM
Personally, I would go the same way as Scotland with a split after the third round of fixtures. So after the third round of fixtures, teams would have five games still to play. Basically the teams you played away from home twice during the 33 game season, you would have at home during this mini-league and vice-versa. That would leave every team with 38 games with 19 home and 19 away.
But what if, say, Shels qualified for the top half having played each of the six teams in the bottom half twice away from home? They would then have played the top five at home twice each and you'd be left with either giving Shels five away games to balance that out (an obvious no-no) or else giving Shels three away games and two home games - which would leave them playing some teams at home three times and away once, which makes matters worse. Obviously, this doesn't need the extreme case I mention to work, I'm just using that to highlight the problem.
pineapple stu
09/12/2004, 2:02 PM
The 10 team league was competitive with NO meaningless games.
What about Dublin City's last game against Rovers? Relegation decided three weeks from the end. Would have happened with the 12-team league as well obviously, but it does kind of negate your point!
What about Dublin City's last game against Rovers? Relegation decided three weeks from the end. Would have happened with the 12-team league as well obviously, but it does kind of negate your point!Meaningless in terms of points, but it was probably the most meaningful game of the season, really.....:D
I'd try and bring 4 more teams into the Eircom League (they're amateur teams/ clubs now but only in name as there are some out there with better facilities/ set ups than some EL clubs!!) and thus having a 16 team premier and 10 team first division would work!!
Obviously couldnt happen over night bringing these teams into the league but I think it should seriously be considered planning on having 4 more teams in the EL over the next 2 or 3 seasons and see how it goes!!
NY Hoop
09/12/2004, 3:06 PM
I'd try and bring 4 more teams into the Eircom League (they're amateur teams/ clubs now but only in name as there are some out there with better facilities/ set ups than some EL clubs!!) and thus having a 16 team premier and 10 team first division would work!!
Obviously couldnt happen over night bringing these teams into the league but I think it should seriously be considered planning on having 4 more teams in the EL over the next 2 or 3 seasons and see how it goes!!
No chance. League can barely afford to have 22 members. Not enough fans or players to go around. Look up north. They have 28 teams :eek:
16 team premier would be dreadful. Too many meaningless games and it would be in effect a two tier division.
2 divisions of 10 teams is the only way forward with proper facilities and more media coverage IMO. I can dream cant I?!!! :D
KOH
fitzknows
09/12/2004, 5:23 PM
Reckon this could easily happen if there was a move to an all-ireland competion. There could also be 2 regional second tiers of say 10 teams a piece. It could happen alot sooner than we think. If the FAI & IFA had any sense they would be already discussing this as a springboard to revitalising the domestic leagues on this island.
kevincronin2000
09/12/2004, 5:37 PM
10 team league is a definite no no for me anyway :rolleyes:
We need a sixteen team premier division but there are not enough teams with the quality to play in the premier the ONLY way forward is an all ireland leauge
The Sheliban
09/12/2004, 7:23 PM
Pat Fenlon asked the league when they were going to start up again, as he needed to plan pre-season training etc, and was told that nobody knew. The more you try to inject some professionalism, the more you get thwarted.
For my tuppence worth, revert back to an 18 team league. This talk about not enough quality teams is a red herring. Just an excuse for bigger clubs, like my own, to maximise their earnings at the expense of the smaller clubs, who must ply their lonely trade in a deserted First Division. Lets have some good old-fashioned Bertie Ahern-style socialism here, and not try to put the Limericks and Monaghans out of business.
typically, a lop-sided league is a load of pants. I remember it worked quite well for Longford when we had two of the top three sides at home, and faired quite well too.
The reason the split league was abandoned was because in the 12 team league of the day, side X was sixth and Y was seventh in the league at the split and team Y finished the league with more wins.
We're goosed either ways and any talk of the North is silly because it means the two partys coming together and sorting it out. It's the future for the game in ireland. and therefore it's not going to happen. QED.
Pat Fenlon asked the league when they were going to start up again, as he needed to plan pre-season training etc, and was told that nobody knew. The more you try to inject some professionalism, the more you get thwarted.
For my tuppence worth, revert back to an 18 team league. This talk about not enough quality teams is a red herring. Just an excuse for bigger clubs, like my own, to maximise their earnings at the expense of the smaller clubs, who must ply their lonely trade in a deserted First Division. Lets have some good old-fashioned Bertie Ahern-style socialism here, and not try to put the Limericks and Monaghans out of business.
I find myself in agreement with a Shels fan - what the hell is happening ? :eek: I think the only answer is to bring more teams in. 16, or even 18. Clubs like Galway, Sligo and Athlone are never going to recapture past glories stuck in the no-mans land of a first Division nobody cares about. The only way to increase quality is to play against better teams, isn't that what we've always been told ? Crowds will come back to the likes of the Clubs mentioned if they are in the top Division, and it would solve the problem of the number of games, the over - familiarity etc. Splitting the league in two half way through is lunacy. If you want to talk about meaningless games there's a perfect example - that's why that experiment was abandoned before. Inclusivity, not exclusivity I say !!
MervilleUnited
09/12/2004, 9:48 PM
Seems like a lot of disatisfaction out there with the current set up!! Anyone thinking outside of the box? ie any radical ideas? off the wall most welcome! ;)
if the prem. was still a ten team league the mighty hoops would be playing in the first div. dont forget last season???????????
Aberdonian Stu
10/12/2004, 8:03 AM
Their simply isn't enough quality or interest to maintain an 18 team league, and unless you're planning on bringing in more clubs (which we can't sustain) the threat of relegation is gone which makes thing meaningless for a lot of clubs for a large chunk of the season.
18 would be the ideal number in an AIL as we could sustain a smaller second tier. I think the It could work along the (wrongly) abandoned Italian as with 4 teams going down (although three would be better) in the previous system they kept it exciting. It also allows for a meaningful playoff system in the second tier.
But an AIL won't happen so here's me dreaming.
NY Hoop
10/12/2004, 3:57 PM
if the prem. was still a ten team league the mighty hoops would be playing in the first div. dont forget last season???????????
Never will as went to all 36 games :eek: :D
No more teams to come in. Not enough players and fans to go around. Cannot emphasis this enough.
The only way a 16 team league would work would be in an All Ireland league. Til then 2 divisons of 10 teams is the way forward.
KOH
The Sheliban
11/12/2004, 6:56 PM
Why wouldn't an eighteen or sixteen team league work? It works in England. All clubs have potential to get good crowds. We all remember Athlone, Dundalk, Limerick, Sligo, Galway being able to generate crowds when they were big clubs. Longford is of course the great example to all sides. A bit of success and an energetic board can draw crowds.
How about having one Premier League of 18 clubs, and a regionalised first division. Winners of say the four regional divisions to play off for promotion.
pineapple stu
11/12/2004, 8:18 PM
Why wouldn't an eighteen or sixteen team league work? It works in England.
How about having one Premier League of 18 clubs, and a regionalised first division. Winners of say the four regional divisions to play off for promotion.
Who'd be in the regional divisions? The top junior/intermediate clubs don't want to be in the league. There were only two teams applied for the last vacancy - Kildare County and Mullingar Town. You're simply not going to have 40 teams (which is the least you'd need for your four regional leagues) looking to enter the league. All those teams would need a UEFA B Licence, which wuold be huge outlay, especially with grants not forthcoming. The newest team in the league - Kildare - had smaller crowds than UCD this season. Obviously if they can get into the Premier for even a year, their crowds could take off, but this is the reality of bringing new clubs into the league - you aren't going to get a new team who'd have an average crowd of 1000 in the regionalised First Division. The fact that a 16-team leauge works in England is meaningless - for starters, they don't have any 16-team leagues (or 18-team leagues), and secondly, they have the clubs and the interest whereas we patently don't. Even with an All-Ireland league, I'd be scepitcal about a Premier of any more than 14 teams.
Ultimately, there are only 22 or so clubs who want to play league football, and that's the structure we've got to work with. Any talk about 16-team leagues is pie in the sky. It has to be either a ten- or a twelve-team Premier, end of story.
CollegeTillIDie
11/12/2004, 8:37 PM
Previous postings have mentioned having a 16-18 team Premier Division and regional First Divisions below that. Where would these teams come from?
There have previously been League of Ireland clubs located in West Limerick
(Newcastlewest) and the rest in the past thirty years were in County Tipperary ( Thurles Town) and Dublin ( St.James's Gate and St. Francis).
Now forget about another Dublin club that leaves West Limerick and maybe Tipperary. Well forget West Limerick as Newcastlewest were not that well supported, and North Kerry would be a much better option anyway, and they are already in the Under 21 League. Then you would have to consider Mayo who also are already in the Under 21 League. So there would be possibly three new clubs in max in the League on that basis. The Tipperary club most likely to make the grade to League level in terms of having a good team would be Peake Villa, where as Clonmel Town would in terms of facilities probably be the best location in the county.
So given Kerry Mayo and Tipperary as the counties most likely along with Mullingar to feature possible future LOI clubs that leaves 4 making a League of 26 clubs.. which would mean two 5 team Divisions or else a 10 team First Division below the 16 team League. That might work. Another possible location would be Navan. But Parkvilla are not that strong at present despite the fact their facilities could reach the required standard with a reasonably modest outlay.
12 Team League is a disaster.
10 Team while having its flaws was at very competitive & very little mismatches.
There is not the quality in the country for a 12 team Premier & will encourage clubs to idle away as they know hard for most of the to be relegated & will be almost no chance of 1st division team winning a playoff. IMO the 10 team league has encouraged the likes of Drogs to invest if they wanted to stay & progress within the premier division.
pineapple stu
13/12/2004, 12:50 PM
12 Team League is a disaster.
10 Team while having its flaws was at very competitive & very few mismatches.
Dublin City were competitive? Only Kilkenny finished further adrift since the Premier was brought in. You could argue that they were competitive as they did take seven points from Bohs, but if they were competitive, then the three promoted teams - two of whom set record points tallies for the First Division - will be even more so. This season will be more competitive than last, I'd say.
And how are the uncompetitive teams going to get competitive by being dumped in the First Division? Very easy for a Cork fan to ignore the First Division, but having been there, clubs simply wither in there. Locking them in isn't going to do any good. Twelve teams gives more clubs the chance to get a season or two in the Premier - to get some money in and get some exposure - still has relegation, which almost everyone seems to accept is needed and is still going to be competitive.
I've always been a supporter of the regional teams having to make it on the pitch to reduce the Dublin ratio of the league, however I'm coming around to expanding the league so that it's a straight 2 series expanded premier (assuming, and it's a big assumption, that teams come into the first).
The whole arguement about the summer season, was to raise the performances of eL clubs in Europe - play a better standard so improve the standard here. Why shouldn't this be done with the top first division teams as well? I'd sure as hell prefer 2 games a season against Athlone or Galway than 3 or 4 against UCD or Bray.
The caveats I would have would be the grounds being up to scratch (but then they don't enforce that now), and as I mentioned before that there are teams to make the first at least 10 teams.
However, I think we need either an all ireland league or a radical reform of the entire league set-up (i.e. not just playing with premier division numbers) to save domestic football in Ireland.
However, I think we need either an all ireland league or a radical reform of the entire league set-up (i.e. not just playing with premier division numbers) to save domestic football in Ireland.
I think the only real chance of a 16 team Premier is through an all-ireland/island top division with probably then regionalised 1st divisions but unfortunately IMO that is at very least 3 years away & that would be very optimistic.
I'm really looking forward to the Setanta Cup until something happens to break that enthuasism. I can't speculate about other clubs but April is good month for it as Premiership interest decreasing as honours decided & locals starved of live football. The cross will look great with at least 5-6k crowd & live tv.
The 10 team league was definately more competitive, and I don't mind playing each side four times.
However, not being in the top ten is killing regional teams like Galway, Sligo, Dundalk, Athlone, which have proven in the past that they have the fans and are capable of sustaining interest (when playing in the division that matters).
12 teams is a step in the right direction, but playing each side three times is daft. I also don't like spliting the league after the third round either.
A 14 team Premier might work for one year as a transition to 16 teams, playing each other team twice (i.e. 26 and then 30 games in total). 18 would be too big. The second tier should then have about ten teams. It shouldn't be too big, and certainly not bigger than the top division. The second tier should be a bridge between amateur football and the top flight, not a place where clubs sit ad infinitum being neither one thing nor the other, as is currently the case.
Promotion / Relegation between the first and second tier should be fluid - 3 or 4 teams going in each direction each year. This means that the teams near the bottom of the Premier don't ever feel too comfortable, but likewise, being relegated isn't the death sentence it currently is with teams having only a slim chance of getting back to the big time.
This would necessitate bringing a few more teams to the league. The argument that there aren't enough fans to go around only holds in the Dublin area. Bringing in teams from counties like Kerry, Mayo, Tipperary, etc, will not eat into the fanbase of existing clubs. Otherwise we could try to poach a few more northern sides like Newry or Omagh ;) . I would love an all-Ireland league, but I honestly don't think we'll see it any time soon.
Dr.Nightdub
13/12/2004, 8:55 PM
I know it's probably not right to expect to be able to make judgements about potential League form based on cup games, but the fact of the Kerry and Mayo Leagues being in next year's League Cup might give an indication as to whether there are options for adding more clubs to the First so as to make a 16-team Premier feasible.
If Kerry and Mayo turn out to be halfway decent, then maybe there's a case for expansion. But if the only benefit they bring is that Limerick get to play someone that's even more ****e than they are, then there's not much point.
mypost
14/12/2004, 4:17 AM
typically, a lop-sided league is a load of pants. I remember it worked quite well for Longford when we had two of the top three sides at home, and faired quite well too.
If there were 4 rounds of games next year in the Premier, every team would have to play a standard 44 games. Throw in Pre-season friendlies, FAI Cup games, League Cup games, replays, and for some clubs, Setanta Cup, and European games too, and you're talking around 60 games a season for clubs, which is simply not suited to what remains a mostly part-time league. Some clubs for various reasons, have little money, small squads, and poor crowds, and it's just too many games.
At least with only 33 games next season, it should free up weeks for clubs to re-schedule games when necessary, so we don't have a situation like last season where with 3 weeks left, Longford had 6 league games left to play. :eek:
I hated the 4 rounds of games. Last season for example, we had to play Longford not 4 times, but 6 times, including 3 times in a month, with 2 games in the Cup. The previous year, we had to play Pats 6 times. Anyway, no disrespect, but do most clubs want to have to play the likes of UCD, Bray, and Drogheda 4 times a season? The 3 rounds will mean that some clubs, will only have to travel to Cork, Derry, Finn Harps, Shels, or Rovers, and so on once, while they get to play them twice at home. Some clubs will get lucky with their fixtures, others won't.
By the way, with only one team certain to go down, plus a play-off (2 more games for that too), Rovers will be scrapping it out for 10th spot, and safety again. :rolleyes:
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