Where are we going wrong in Europe ??

[Kiki Balboa]

Are we as good as we can be in Europe in recent years? This was another overall disappointing year in europe (however, sprinkled with highlights). We see the likes of the Icelandic and Latvian leagues, who surly dont have much more money than us, almost regularly go past our teams and the only ones that we can knock out are teams from Luxembourg. Any suggestions why ?

My 5 cents there is a couple of reasons, all of which are problems within the league not with barstoolers or FAI.

First we have no one team that dominates the league (which is probably good), meaning no team can be our flagship in europe, able to hoard the money needed for progression.

Secondly, some managers are way too cautious and conservative, and don't have belief in their own team to worry the opponents.

Thirdly, fans and teams dont really expect to win. Think of Sligo versus Molde, Sligo where already beaten before the game and never really went at Molde. Their seems no real drive from specific teams to push on in Europe for some strange reason.

On the pitch, I think there is an overall lack of pace in the league, which takes a dimension away from our play. Also not enough space being created up front can be a killer in a lot of games (Dundalk vs BATE)(something rovers could do in their european triumphs)#.

I think the standard of football is higher than our ranking shows (might be rose tinted), especially when you see Irish teams play without fear in europe such as the likes of UCD and Drogheda, who caused problem for opposition despite being only mid table teams or worse here. Im not saying we should be expecting teams to be pushing for eurpa league group stages , just we should be getting through more stages than we are at this moment.

Any thoughts ?

[bennocelt]

I dont think we have the managers really. Same old faces with the same old tired tactics

Edit: I do like Keith Long though, perhaps Bohs might do something next season?

[pineapple stu]

I think it's important to consider who we're playing against. The Luxembourg team we beat, for example, had a budget of €2m per annum. They had three players on €5k a week or more. That's serious stuff, but on the face of it, you'd just think yerrah, sure this is just a small team from Luxembourg (as I did!) Their gates are 500 per game. Slovan's gates are 1,500 a game - but their basic salary for all their players is €1,500 a week (a good wage here and a very good wage in Slovakia)

I presume a large chunk comes from sponsorship; lots of wealthy contacts in Luxembourg for example. Other countries get revenue from local TV deals of course. Slovan got group stage money last season. But I wonder could LoI clubs be doing more to look at other cash streams? Or is that the interest isn't there (which it isn't in TV unfortunately, and maybe wealthy contacts tend towards rugby/golf/other sports)?

In eastern Europe, you can do more with your €200k per round prize money. Not a major issue, but a financial drawback for us nonetheless.

Just another potential factor.

[ger121]

We keep losing matches😉

[Eminence Grise]

Agree about the over-cautious tactics. Far too many negative coaches/managers are using these tactics when the technical and fitness levels of players have improved. I genuinely believe that there is far more ability in the league now than when I first took an interest in it about 15/16 years ago, and that makes me optimistic that a good manager would have the confidence to rely on that, instead of playing hoofball. Kenny, probably, but with all due respect to Dundalk, they're a few key players short of breakthrough. Buckley too.

When you think about it, if it takes a rookie player, say 30-40 games to gain experience at a new level, and 100 to become competent, how many games does it take for a manager to have comparable expertise? If we keep picking from the same group of managers, most of whom have managed only a handful of games in Europe (if any) or the occasional lower league manager from England/Scotland who's on a short sabbatical from League 2, we can hardly expect tactical nous as standard.

And it will come back to money, as PS says. That kind of European experience isn't cheap, whether it's a manager who has 50+ European ties under his belt, or experience of three or more leagues as a player or manager. And this is an expensive country, so average professionals need more money here than elsewhere. The kind of pros who would make the league jump forward if there were two or three in each squad aren't affordable here. If a Slovan's average wage is €80,000pa, what equivalent amount would he have to be paid here to have the same spending power? Twice, three times that?

[Charlie Darwin]

We keep coming up against teams that are better than us. It's the same reason UCD keep getting relegated. Even the bog-standard leagues like Latvia or Moldova or wherever all have at least one team with a budget much bigger than any of our clubs.

[paykanti]

It's just a lack of quality which is from a lack of finances which is from a lack of leadership. I don't believe any of the sides can really feel they massively underachieved, maybe arguably St Pats could have got past Skonto at a push. A kinder draw and Dundalk could easily have got to the third-round and group stage EL but aside from them the other sides simply aren't good enough.

[pineapple stu]

Coincidentally, just found this link (http://kassiesa.nl/uefa/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2201) with info on the budgets of a few of the more mundane European leagues - Poland, Czech Republic, Scotland, Bosnia, Israel.

We simply can't compete with that at all. Bosnia is the nearest (€1.5m for the top), but I would imagine Bosnia being a cheaper country than here helps them.

Hamilton got £875k in prize money for finishing bottom of the 2010/11 SPL. What is it here - €10k?

In the past decade, the FAI's income has grown from €8m to €38m, but LoI prize money has barely increased (and of course, league entry fees exceed overall prize money for most clubs). Give €5m a year in prize money to the LoI and you'd see some improvements in Europe.

[ger121]

Interesting read Stu. Now without opening a can of worms, what (see I didn't say who) would be the biggest annual budgets in the league? Would serve as a benchmark against leagues of similar size budgets.

[Nesta99]

Money is not the be all and end all in relation to European progression. A surplus should really go in to infrastructure and player development rather than inflating wages of the existing player pool. Maybe a few quality imports could happen and some money put in to scouting. But a long term plan of improving the technique of our young players is the only way that I see an improvement. Of course additional cash may help retain some players from moving abroad but the bright lights and the dream of EPL will always lure players away. Being able to get players home rather than going to lower leagues in England/Scotland would be possible.

In the mean time shrewd management and signing players that fit a particular system as SK has done at Dundalk rather than the wealthier clubs going out and trying to sign the top players from other clubs just because they're a POTY regardless whether this player fits in to a squad or not. With the exception of O'Donnell and Towell, Horgan 2014, Finn 2015, Dundalk's squad were not premium sought after players but were signed with particular traits in mind that would compliment each other. Since 2013 other clubs have been approaching the likes of Boyle who was never on a radar of those clubs before and may not be as effective at another club playing a different way and with a different type of player around him.

[pineapple stu]

Money is not the be all and end all in relation to European progression.
I think it's not far off it. But money doesn't have to equate to wages. You list a few other things which would all benefit the league - but all require money. Even coaching badges - and as Eminence hints, I think the coaching in the league has gone way up in the past 10/15 years - require money.

[Nesta99]

Ah I know money is essentia andl in bucket loads too, I suppose what I was saying is it depends on what additional money is spent on whether it make a serious difference. At one time Drogheda and Cork and Shels, for example, were paying players the sort of money that players can only dream of currently. If there is a cash injection from anywhere players will look to push up wages. It would be up to clubs to be careful of wher any additional monies will end up - being absorbed by increased demands of the current player pool rather than investing in future players.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah - basically you need money and to be smart with money

[El-Pietro]

Interesting read Stu. Now without opening a can of worms, what (see I didn't say who) would be the biggest annual budgets in the league? Would serve as a benchmark against leagues of similar size budgets.
I don't know about other clubs but our income/expenditure is almost exactly €1,000,000 a season. Though we have a surprisingly low player salary to total budget, partially due to the rent we have to pay on Turners Cross and Bishopstown.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't know about other clubs but our income/expenditure is almost exactly €1,000,000 a season. Though we have a surprisingly low player salary to total budget, partially due to the rent we have to pay on Turners Cross and Bishopstown.
I'd be surprised if your income was that low. You would have the extra expenditure on the stadium though right enough. Sligo were pulling in more than that when they were second in the league on gates of 2k. Granted, they had European money but you'll have that for this year too.

[El-Pietro]

I'd be surprised if your income was that low. You would have the extra expenditure on the stadium though right enough. Sligo were pulling in more than that when they were second in the league on gates of 2k. Granted, they had European money but you'll have that for this year too.
I've seen the budget, it wasn't far off that last year, even with the larger crowds.

Obviously Europe will help this year.

[Charlie Darwin]

I've seen the budget, it wasn't far off that last year, even with the larger crowds.

Obviously Europe will help this year.
Fair enough, just thought you'd bring in more considering the gates.

[Mr A]

Where are we going wrong in Europe? Same as everywhere else in Irish football- we're not producing enough good players. And that goes back to the shambles of schoolboy football, poor coaching standards, stone age attitudes and an unwillingness to grasp the nettle and force through reforms.

[Dodge]

Why we're that competitive is why we're not successful with the national team

Because no one really cares about Irish football

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Something is not adding up there El-P. Average attendances of around 4k at €15 a head is €60k a game with 17 home games would be over €1m already (I know it's probably not exactly 4k and there's kids etc to be taken into account). Surely you're not relying purely on attendances for your revenue.

(insert token dig at John Caulfield and the great marketing team here)

[redobit]

... or maybe European teams of just better.

[pineapple stu]

Well we know that!

Just for illustration, with €5m in prize money, you could give -

€600k to the LoI champions
€50k less for each place below that, except for 11th and 12th, who both get €100k
€200k for the First Division champions
€25k less for each place below that, except for 5th to 8th, who all get €100k

That wouldn't be a panacea, but I'd be fairly sure you'd see a fair few improvements in the league with that kind of money in it.

The FAI's spending in the past decade has gone up by €30m per annum - on what? Is it all regional coaching staff and Lansdowne Road expenses?

I don't think €5m a year is an unworkable chunk of the FAI's budget to give to the league.

[nigel-harps1954]

Considering the money the FAI take out of the league each season €5m shouldn't be anywhere out of question towards prize money.

[Ezeikial]

Considering the money the FAI take out of the league each season €5m shouldn't be anywhere out of question towards prize money.

Do they take out over €5m ?

[nigel-harps1954]

Do they take out over €5m ?

I didn't say they do.

[Ezeikial]

I didn't say they do.

Help me out - what amount of money should we consider, when we reflect on your comment?


Considering the money the FAI take out of the league each season

[nigel-harps1954]

Commonly known that the FAI almost take in the entire league prize money through affiliation fees and fines each year.

Take sponsorship on top of that, Airtricity alone must be a good chunk of money each year without taking in smaller sponsors of the league, FAI Cup and Irish Daily Mail, League Cup and EA Sports, TV money through RTÉ and FAI deal, you can be also sure Setanta don't show games without paying a few quid. That's only the tip of the iceberg.

The FAI, all in, must take around €2 million in income a year from the League of Ireland at minimum.

If my figure is in any way accurate, is it really out of the question that the FAI should put in a couple million prize money to their own national league, taking the €30 million annual spend they waste anyway on a consistently failing national side amongst other things?

[pineapple stu]

Don't the FAI waive some of their international TV money (a couple of mill?) so MNS/Soccer Republic can screen?

[Sheridan]

Don't the FAI waive some of their international TV money (a couple of mill?) so MNS/Soccer Republic can screen?
That was under the previous deal, though RTÉ always (falsely) denied it.

[Charlie Darwin]

Something is not adding up there El-P. Average attendances of around 4k at €15 a head is €60k a game with 17 home games would be over €1m already (I know it's probably not exactly 4k and there's kids etc to be taken into account). Surely you're not relying purely on attendances for your revenue.

(insert token dig at John Caulfield and the great marketing team here)
I'd say the average paid for a ticket is probably more like €11-12 when you factor in season tickets, children's tickets and OAPs. Plus I get the impression Cork count freebies in their attendances too, which would bump it down again. Still, you're looking at 700k+ for gates, so the €1 million is probably roughly right.

[nigel-harps1954]

The FAI made around €1,000 on cards alone in the First Division this weekend. 22 yellows and 6 red cards dished out among FOUR games. Disgraceful stuff.

[SalvadorSanchez]

There's loads of reasons why we're not doing as well in Europe as we might.. but the main ones are.
We're a semi-pro league that releases players from contracts in close season... we're losing players to poor lower league outfits
in the UK because they offer better contracts and security of employment
there's no decent prize money for the clubs so every penny has to be shaken out of sponsors/fans/fund raising, you quickly get into diminishing return here...
there isn't enough punters paying through the gates (this is related to stadia/facilities, the perception of the quality of the product, and the level of success of the particular club..)
the big name sponsors aren't as interested as they might be, look at AIG, Skoda, Avonmore, Kerry Group.. all putting big money into the GAA...
the underage scene is a complete joke by all accounts,
a few people have mentioned coaching and self belief on here.. I can't disagree..

You'd have to think that there needs to be a section created in the FAI to focus on developing the LOI, it needs a budget of at least €5-10million a year to improve underage structures/player development, coaching, fan facilities, marketing and provide prize money... it also needs to bring in other finance from Government, Sponsors, TV etc. and to help the clubs with their fund raising..
Success has many fathers but if you look at it there's several pieces of the puzzle that need to be addressed... there's a lot of work to be done to get this right... we need to roll up our sleeves... I see no reason why this league can't develop...
the thing is someone has to step up and take overall responsibility for developing the League... the depressing thing is we're actually failing by quite small margins... Dundalk were unlucky against BATE... we're not actually that far from a breakthrough...
if the Danes/Norwegians/Croats/Poles can get teams into the CL, I don't see why we can't work towards that...

[pineapple stu]

The FAI made around €1,000 on cards alone in the First Division this weekend. 22 yellows and 6 red cards dished out among FOUR games. Disgraceful stuff.
There were 9 yellows at the Bowl yesterday, and most of those were deserved.

I don't see why that's the FAI's fault.

[Spudulika]

Everything written so far has merit, from lack of prize money, conservative tactics, the part-time nature of clubs etc. Some of the numbers (for Bosnia for example) given in the link would be questionable, though the poster says as much. I can say for a fact. In 2004 Hajduk Split were on the verge of being ejected from the Poljud and training grounds and being wound up because of a total of 500,000e in debts - accumulated over 2 years. In actuality they should have been in profit, but money was being drained from the club left right and centre - example, the UEFA Cup match against a cracking Roma team was a complete sell-out, yet apparently only 300,000kn (just over 40k euros) in tickets were sold. The average ticket price was 150kn, what wasn't told was that the entire allocation for the northern curve (the ultras) was sold off at a premium and the cash given to local fixers and gangsters.

The club only survived, after being kayoed by Shels, from a dig out from the City of Split, which is normal. Clubs in Eastern Europe get bucks from their local/regional government and assorted business people. If FFP is applied Slovan would not be playing UCD, and Skonto would not have faced Pats. Such clubs are constantly on a cycle of running up big debts then walking away, starting a new club and pretending all is okay, and supporters back it (never happen in Ireland though!).

The BATE model is something any Irish club can do, but it needs a 5+ year plan and sticking to it, I don't see any of our clubs capable of this. It's all about ensuring that there is a good coaching structure in each club, that kids arrive at age 6 and each youth side plays the same formation and tactics the whole way up to the senior side and players are versatile. They began with not a whole lot of money but with ex-players returning and trust put in a decent coaching staff. Of course they could do more with less because of the cost of living, but now they're reaching the limits of their ability by making the knock-out round in the Europa League the odd time.

We can have an MLS model, a pyramid, an inverted pyramid or 15 divisions, but the simple fact is that our coaching is still short term and the goal of any decent player is to get to England or Scotland. The fault, largely, lies with money hungry unaffiliated schoolboy clubs and the backhanders paid to people involved with them. I say unaffiliated in that they have no affiliation with LOI clubs (in a strict sense).

And it's not just in Ireland where schoolboy clubs do this, Russia, Croatia, Bosnia, Ukraine, Latvia - they'll happily flog off a player just for a quick buck (and nice advertisement to parents of potential players) and then claim they owe no loyalty to the national team or league.

[desaintsno.12]

Ah I know money is essentia andl in bucket loads too, I suppose what I was saying is it depends on what additional money is spent on whether it make a serious difference. At one time Drogheda and Cork and Shels, for example, were paying players the sort of money that players can only dream of currently. If there is a cash injection from anywhere players will look to push up wages. It would be up to clubs to be careful of wher any additional monies will end up - being absorbed by increased demands of the current player pool rather than investing in future players.


Yeah - basically you need money and to be smart with money

text book Irish behaviour. Sadly i dont see it changing for a long time anyway

[outspoken]

There were 9 yellows at the Bowl yesterday, and most of those were deserved.

I don't see why that's the FAI's fault.

And the red card in athlone was deserved too

[nigel-harps1954]

There were 9 yellows at the Bowl yesterday, and most of those were deserved.

I don't see why that's the FAI's fault.

Not really my point, it was just backing up my earlier post regarding the amount the FAI lift out of the league.

Besides, they weren't all deserved.

[Real ale Madrid]

I think it's important to consider who we're playing against. The Luxembourg team we beat, for example, had a budget of €2m per annum. They had three players on €5k a week or more. That's serious stuff, but on the face of it, you'd just think yerrah, sure this is just a small team from Luxembourg

Those are mental figures - if Dudelange had 3 guys on 5k a week then for example Richie Towell should just go there - feic the lower leagues in England. In fact any of our top players should go to Luxembourg and get 5k a week!

[SkStu]

I think that the spirit of this thread is off. The league is doing as well as can be expected all things considered. It is not really the fault of the clubs, the players, the managers, the fans etc - each of those gives their all (except Nutsy), especially when it comes to European campaigns. The problems with domestic league football are systemic and the fault lies squarely at the feet of the FAI and league administration. The key to even moderate European success is financial and using finances to invest in facilities/youth systems and attract/produce better players all of which leads to success which attracts more fans which brings more euros and so on and makes the success and attraction sustainable. Most clubs are doing their best to get bums on seats and engage their communities but it is often done on a voluntary basis, off the side of someones desk/life and receives little to no support from any *body*. Its a disgrace. Rather than focus on why we don't win matches in Europe from season to season we need to get back to addressing the root cause. F*ck All Interest.

[pineapple stu]

Not really my point, it was just backing up my earlier post regarding the amount the FAI lift out of the league.

Besides, they weren't all deserved.
Ah, most of them were.

It's just a bugbear of mine that a high number of cards is never the fault of the players - there's always something wrong with the referees (or it's a conspiracy on the part of the FAI) when there's more than 4 players booked in a match.

The FAI have lots of things to answer for, but the number of yellow cards over the weekend isn't one of them.

[White Horse]

Good teams are put together in the LOI, Dundalk at the moment, Pats in 2012, Sligo in 2011.

The problem is that it is very difficult to step up to a much higher standard when European football comes round. Football is mainly an instinctive game and bad habits are formed by playing against poor teams week in week out.

Until the league develops more better teams and improves the general standard, good teams will struggle to make the step up when July comes around.

[SalvadorSanchez]

I think that the spirit of this thread is off. The league is doing as well as can be expected all things considered. It is not really the fault of the clubs, the players, the managers, the fans etc - each of those gives their all (except Nutsy), especially when it comes to European campaigns. The problems with domestic league football are systemic and the fault lies squarely at the feet of the FAI and league administration. The key to even moderate European success is financial and using finances to invest in facilities/youth systems and attract/produce better players all of which leads to success which attracts more fans which brings more euros and so on and makes the success and attraction sustainable. Most clubs are doing their best to get bums on seats and engage their communities but it is often done on a voluntary basis, off the side of someones desk/life and receives little to no support from any *body*. Its a disgrace. Rather than focus on why we don't win matches in Europe from season to season we need to get back to addressing the root cause. F*ck All Interest.
Can't disagree with anything said here, there was a graphic on Soccer Rep. last night showing the win rate has almost doubled in the last few years.. and I believe there is progress and that the standard of the product is starting to improve again...
I happen to believe that this League can grow and develop and that we can do better in Europe and that if we can get a club or two on a decent European campaign every few years that it could be a real shot in the arm for our league...
There's lots of work that needs doing and there needs to be a plan put in place and one person put in overall charge of a programme to develop the league... not the schoolboys, national team etc. just the league...
we need to look at facilities, funding, prizes and also other issues like the types of people who run clubs in our league, we also need to look at the ground licensing... how some clubs keep getting premier licences is beyond me...
we as fans have been putting up with bad grounds, inconsistent quality of the football product, shabby budgets and financial mismanagement, daft chairmen with other agendas (or megalomania) chaos in management, players released in off season, lower league English clubs hoovering up our best players....

Every single one of these issue can dealt with systematically, one by one, if there is a will and the support of the chain of command to make it happen... it's not impossible, it's not easy either, but it needs to be tackled... the new U17 league seems like a positive development... as is the Centre of Excellence in Cork... as is the Dalymount redevelopment plan... as is the success of SDCC building Tallaght Stadium... There are positives, let's use them as a launch pad and drive on...

[pineapple stu]

there was a graphic on Soccer Rep. last night showing the win rate has almost doubled in the last few years
Didn't see that graphic, but have to be careful with stuff like that - if we were seeded for a few years, of course the win rate would increase as we're playing lower opposition.

Also, the increase in qualifying rounds means we're not playing Everton in the first round any more.

Needs a bit more detail than just "we're winning more games now than in the past"

[gufcfan]

The FAI have lots of things to answer for, but the number of yellow cards over the weekend isn't one of them.

The numbers of cards, no. The amount they gather in fines, yes.

[Nesta99]

The graphic was from 2 period 1990-'02 and '02 to '15.

[pineapple stu]

The numbers of cards, no. The amount they gather in fines, yes.
There's a lot of stupid fines alright (STIG used to collate and mock some of them), but I think the bookings one is fairly standard.


The graphic was from 2 period 1990-'02 and '02 to '15.
Figured. That chart is meaningless so. The latter includes a far higher proportion of winnable ties.

Look at the draws in 1990/91 -

Pat's v Dinamo Bucharest (including some of the Romania team that had just played Ireland in the World Cup)
Bray v Trabzonspor - that was the only tie in the preliminary round; Trabzonspor played Barca in the first round proper
Derry v Vitesse Arnhem

In each case, the Irish team drew at home and lost away - quite respectable actually.

Compare that to this year - Luxembourg x 2, Iceland, Latvia and Belarus. BATE are the only ones comparable I would say.

[TheBoss]

Lets settle this mini debate then!, the tables below do not include group stage matches that were played in Intertoto Cup (1995, 1996, 1997) and Europa League (2011) as they were not knockout ties.




1990-2002
P
W
D
L
F
A
W%
D%
L%
Q
NQ


LOI Seeded
6
1
3
2
6
5
17%
50%
33%
1
2


LOI Unseeded
88
10
17
61
52
177
11%
19%
69%
6
42






2003-2015
P
W
D
L
F
A
W%
D%
L%
Q
NQ


LOI Seeded
52
22
14
16
76
58
42%
27%
31%
16
10


LOI Unseeded
128
30
31
67
108
196
23%
24%
52%
20
44



Some may argue that the seeded teams in 1990s were of higher quality than the seeded teams from the 2000s and that would be a reason for the higher win rate against seeded teams in the most recent chart. I could go more indepth with the data but that maybe too much information for one to get to grips with!

[Dodge]

Even game results are pretty irrelevant tbh. Winning the tie is the only barometer that matters

[TheBoss]

Winning the tie is the only barometer that matters

That is on the tables I posted under Q (Qualified for next round) and NQ (Not Qualified for next round)