Epl 2015/2016

[DeLorean]

That's not necessarily bottle though, if it is there are countless other examples where they showed remarkable bottle. Sometimes teams just run out of ideas, it's difficult to dominate for ninety minutes anyway. I remember Man Utd blew a two goal lead at Anfield late in the season that they won the treble. It could have destroyed their whole season. There were never any questions of bottle though the way it's being thrown at Tottenham for a very similar collapse last night.

I don't believe in 'points tally' comparisons either. Some seasons are just different to others, whether it's down to a more competitive league or whatever. This was a crazy season so maybe 80 points this season is a bigger achievement than 90 points another year. I'd prefer to just trust my eyes, and Spurs had clearly a lot more substance about them than in previous seasons.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, who knows, maybe lower points per game is the "new normal"? It'd make sense given that all teams now have big money due to the latest TV rights sales. And yes, Spurs were a far more substantive outfit than in previous seasons. They were hugely impressive for a long period last night and at several times over the season. One thing I noticed is how regularly they had games won long before the end. They'd regularly score in first 20 mins and then at least a second by 60 minutes.

[pineapple stu]

Worth noting that even Spurs, for all that their points tally isn't huge by recent standards, have only lost four times all season. Leicester have only lost three times. Just lots of draws is all - maybe the TV money is levelling things a bit, ironically?

Also interesting that, for all that Leicester eked out a lot of 1-0s and Spurs, as you say, had a tendency to hammer some teams, Leicester have only scored three fewer than Spurs, and have conceded six more.

Also, I like this edit on the "Sport in Leicester" wikipedia page -


Notable former managers include Jimmy Bloomfield, David Pleat, Brian Little, and Martin O'Neill. Notable former players include Gordon Banks (England's World Cup winning goalkeeper in 1966), Peter Shilton, Frank Worthington, Gary Lineker (the third highest goalscorer of all time for the England team with 48 goals between 1984 and 1992), Alan Smith, Emile Heskey, Neil Lennon, and Simon Grayson.
Notable current players include Kasper Schmeichel, Danny Drinkwater, Wes Morgan, Robert Huth, Matty James, Jamie Vardy, Andy King, Marc Albrighton, Ben Hamer, Daniel Amartey, N'Golo Kante, Jeff Schlupp, Danny Simpson, Liam Moore, Shinji Okazaki, Demarai Gray, Leonardo Ulloa, Nathan Dyer, Riyad Mahrez, Marcin Wasilewski, Christian Fuchs, Ben Chilwell, Mark Schwarzer and Gokhan Inler.

[DeLorean]

Also interesting that, for all that Leicester eked out a lot of 1-0s and Spurs, as you say, had a tendency to hammer some teams, Leicester have only scored three fewer than Spurs, and have conceded six more.

Yeah the 'eking out 1-0's Leicester' only applied to the second half of the season really though, they were scoring goals for fun in the first half, while conceding plenty as well. I suppose what they were doing in the first half of the season probably wasn't sustainable, but it was incredible the way they tightened things up with what seemed like a click of a finger, without their attacking play suffering too much, in terms of results anyway.

[pineapple stu]

Another snippet I hadn't realised - Claudio Ranieri has never previously won a top-flight league title, either as a player or a manager.

[geysir]

The 1 nils to the Leicester were mainly a feature in the last third of the season and 3 or 4 of them were against lowly teams who were set up to hold onto a draw, games where Leicester had to break them down.
I think in general Spurs have provided much of the best football played every week.
Their very slim title challenge hopes were dealt a fatal blow against West Brom and what we saw last night was the death rattle. In both games, Spurs looks utterly supreme for 40 or 50 minutes. Ponchartrain has done very well, they are in a very good position to consolidate their London supremacy.
Eriksen is my very best free kick specialist, playing football today.

[CraftyToePoke]

Another snippet I hadn't realised - Claudio Ranieri has never previously won a top-flight league title, either as a player or a manager.

No, and he will take his Leicester side to Stamford Bridge on the last day, which I am sure he will savour after the manner of his exit there.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, he's lethal. Despite Spurs having had a great season and Arsenal by common consensus a pretty poor one, there's only 3 points between them. Between Spurs and Leicester they both avoided injuries pretty well. Arsenal, as usual, had their treatment room full of serial hamstring strainers. Bizarre how Arsenal have so many injured every season. Nearly always the same players too: Walcott, Oxlade, Ramsey, Rosicky (all season this year) & Arteta. Cazorla was a big loss. One source suggested it's because they play a precision passing game with short-ar$es who stretch for the ball a lot.

Man City were a huge disappointment this year.

[Stuttgart88]

Stefan Szymanski's take on the EPL (written 5 weeks ago):

http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=890

[geysir]

Stefan Szymanski's take on the EPL (written 5 weeks ago):

http://www.soccernomics-agency.com/?p=890
I was a bit worried until I read this postscript
"To be clear, I see no other link between Donald Trump, who is a serial liar, rampant xenophobe, racist and misogynist and Leicester City, which is a fine, upstanding football club."

[OwlsFan]

The thing that really gets me is that Varady was let go by Sheffield Wednesday :0 And Cantona as well...

I suppose Forest winning the league around 40 years ago is the nearest similar achievement. They had possibly been only promoted the season before (can't quite remember) and then went on to win the European Cup. I wonder how many people are now putting a bet on Leicester to do that - doubt if you'll get odds of 5000-1 though.

Is it a blip or will normal service of dominance by the big boys resume next season? Probably but for the moment it's great even if the hype is starting to grate just a bit.

[Stuttgart88]

Clough was already a proven winner before Forest though?

[DeLorean]

I agree with Jamie Carragher that as great as the Forest achievements were, those kind of stories weren't quite as rare back then. Derby won a league shortly after being promoted, so did Leeds I think. The English Champions were always going to be one of the favourites for the European Cup too, even if Forest wouldn't have been completely fancied to do what they did in the competition. Leicester didn't double the British record transfer fee in pursuit of glory either, as Forest did with Trevor Francis in their first European Cup winning season. To be fair, they had already achieved domestic success at that stage.

I think Leicester is a more extreme case of the impossible being achieved, I think everybody thought the days of a team with their resources achieving success from nowhere was impossible in the current climate, without a huge injection of cash.

[OwlsFan]

I agree with Jamie Carragher that as great as the Forest achievements were, those kind of stories weren't quite as rare back then. Derby won a league shortly after being promoted, so did Leeds I think. The English Champions were always going to be one of the favourites for the European Cup too, even if Forest wouldn't have been completely fancied to do what they did in the competition. Leicester didn't double the British record transfer fee in pursuit of glory either, as Forest did with Trevor Francis in their first European Cup winning season. To be fair, they had already achieved domestic success at that stage.

I think Leicester is a more extreme case of the impossible being achieved, I think everybody thought the days of a team with their resources achieving success from nowhere was impossible in the current climate, without a huge injection of cash.

Yes, money didn't count as much in those days. I even think that Manchester United spent a season in Division One around then: unthinkable now of course. Without taking away from the Leicester "miracle", they arrived just as Chelsea collapsed, Man U were a shadow of themselves, Liverpool continued their Jekyll and Hyde performances and Arsenal - well they've been doing what they've done over the past 10 seasons. That said, they still had to finish ahead of ALL of the rest of the clubs with greater resources, including Spurs.

They will now be used as a stick to beat every manager of mid-sized clubs for the next 10 years just as Greece and Denmark were used as examples of what Ireland could do.

[BonnieShels]

But Ireland could have won Euro92 and Ireland should have done better in 2002.

[CraftyToePoke]

Clough was already a proven winner before Forest though?

He had previous yes, with Derby.

[CraftyToePoke]

Yes, money didn't count as much in those days. I even think that Manchester United spent a season in Division One around then: unthinkable now of course. Without taking away from the Leicester "miracle", they arrived just as Chelsea collapsed, Man U were a shadow of themselves, Liverpool continued their Jekyll and Hyde performances and Arsenal - well they've been doing what they've done over the past 10 seasons. That said, they still had to finish ahead of ALL of the rest of the clubs with greater resources, including Spurs.

They will now be used as a stick to beat every manager of mid-sized clubs for the next 10 years just as Greece and Denmark were used as examples of what Ireland could do.

I think there is a lot in what you say, definitely, money has always counted, the clubs Leicester have edged are powerful global networks in terms of player recruitment and income streams, as vast as Revie's Leeds were in comparison to Cloughs Derby, it wouldn't compare to the Man City & Co / Leicester resource divide. Its the corner shop somehow outmaneuvering the multinational chain, aspect which gives this its real beauty.

Agree also, there was an opportunity to do this, but they did it, none of the more talented squads stepped up. They were several who could have but were again also rans, and if you see two key interviews with Raneiri, the first about two weeks ago where he for the first time speaks about the possibility of winning it, he said something to the effect of 'we must do it now, this season, it wont happen next year'. And yesterday he cautions that it may be another generation before the big clubs resources can be bested again. A lot of factors have to line up for this opportunity to present, but even then someone has to avail of it.

And yeah, woe betide any manager with a thee year plan to stabilise & establish his newly promoted club at Prem level, that ship has sailed :)

[Hitman]

They will now be used as a stick to beat every manager of mid-sized clubs for the next 10 years just as Greece and Denmark were used as examples of what Ireland could do.

Lose home and away to the Faroes? I'm sure we'll never have a manager that bad, even Stan wasn't that incompetent.

[geysir]

Just before Blackburn embarked on their title winning season they were gazumped by Man U on the signing of Roy Keane.
Probably a rare example of gazumping where the original offer was gazumped by a much lower offer.

That would have been some Blackburn team with Roy Keane on board.

[geysir]

Lose home and away to the Faroes? I'm sure we'll never have a manager that bad, even Stan wasn't that incompetent.
That had nothing to do with Ranieri, Greece intl football had imploded utterly before he came on board, he was there for 4 games and Greece didn't improve afterwards.

[Stuttgart88]

They will now be used as a stick to beat every manager of mid-sized clubs for the next 10 years just as Greece and Denmark were used as examples of what Ireland could do.That's pure sophistry, certainly in the case of Denmark. Greece was simply bizarre, just as bizarre as Leicester, but Denmark certainly have been a useful yardstick for Ireland, and in many ways.

[OwlsFan]

So Newcastle and Norwich are relegated and the Sunderland fans will be treated to another season of being outclassed by most teams they play against and yet celebrate it as if they've won something. Yes, of course it's great for a club to be in the Premiership but that just appears to be the sole ambition of most clubs if they can't qualify for the Champions League. The Europa League doesn't seem to be on anyone's radar unless they get to the semi-finals. Forget about trying to win cups - mere survival is all that matters or getting from 14th to 12th.

Thank heavens for Leicester. Will they open the eyes of the also rans ?

[DeLorean]

Could that have been any sweeter for Sunderland though? Big Sam is some man to be fair. Incredible really that a team that simply couldn't score goals knock six past Chelsea and Everton to secure safety with a game to spare. The dream of mid-table mediocrity is alive and well as long as they keep him. Considering his own history with Newcastle, and indeed Benitez, he must have laughed himself to sleep last night.

As for Rafa, he looked like he'd managed to get Newcastle scrapping pretty well, but that turnaround at the Stadium of Light on Saturday changed everything, and his own conservative ways came back to bite him on the arse when they really needed to beat Aston Villa. He started the league managing Real Madrid and ended it managing a Championship team. Where next?

[OwlsFan]

Quique Sanchez Flores leaving Watford. Martinez sacked by Everton. I heard some Sky commentator saying how "hugely successful" Everton had been under Moyes. 14th or 8th - does it make any difference really other than a few million in to the club's coffers? But for the "miracle" of Leicester, the aim for 75% of Premiership teams seems to be a 10 ten finish and that is mission accomplished. I am beginning to think it might be more fun in the Championship where the aim at the start of the season for every team is to finish in the top 6 but ambitions of course change as the season progresses.

[BonnieShels]

Quique Sanchez Flores leaving Watford. Martinez sacked by Everton. I heard some Sky commentator saying how "hugely successful" Everton had been under Moyes. 14th or 8th - does it make any difference really other than a few million in to the club's coffers? But for the "miracle" of Leicester, the aim for 75% of Premiership teams seems to be a 10 ten finish and that is mission accomplished. I am beginning to think it might be more fun in the Championship where the aim at the start of the season for every team is to finish in the top 6 but ambitions of course change as the season progresses.

There was an article in WSC about this very subject a few years back. And it was written by a Sheffield Wednesday supporter. Interesting...

[OwlsFan]

There was an article in WSC about this very subject a few years back. And it was written by a Sheffield Wednesday supporter. Interesting...

For fear of going OT and getting banned like Crosby, how are Shels getting on? I was a regular LoI supporter (Rovers) for many years but now am only an occasional visitor to Tallaght. I used to make the journey across the City to Tolka to see games against Shels and I always thought they were the best supported of the Dublin teams after Rovers. I always had a soft spot for them as they had a rake of ex-Rovers players as managers for a while. What are the crowds like ? Bigger than Bohs?

[SkStu]

Don't worry Bonnie, I got this...they're getting on terribly OF. Their crowds have shrunk to the low hundreds (the hardcore).

Even so, they were almost always the most poorly supported Dublin team in the league, except when they were attracting a large quantity of bandwagoners in their glory years - and even then there was a big variance in their crowd size from game to game. The young fans from the 00's have mostly dropped off, the oul lads from their other successes in the past have possibly dropped away. There is a lot of in-fighting in the club and between the club and the fans over the future of the club. I truly believe a lot of delusion still attaches itself to the club and its standing in the domestic game today. They were offered and have rejected the opportunity to share a revitalized Dalymount Park with Bohs. It is a very questionable stance for them to take on the matter but they believe they can survive on their own.

Bohs, despite having had a very demoralizing (and deservedly so) spell over the last number of seasons still sees average crowds in the 1400-1600 range over that time. If we were to be relegated I would expect to see that drop to about 1000 or so, possibly 800 or 900.

Good luck to Shels.

[Charlie Darwin]

Shels' issue with the Dalymount offer was that they get nothing for relinquishing Tolka so moving to Dalymount would just accelerate their demise. You can see their point - they're sitting on prime real estate in Drumcondra, even if they lost control of the lease already.

[SkStu]

Shels' issue with the Dalymount offer was that they get nothing for relinquishing Tolka so moving to Dalymount would just accelerate their demise. You can see their point - they're sitting on prime real estate in Drumcondra, even if they lost control of the lease already.

I'm just glad that was all you tried to pick me up on.

No, to be honest I can't see their point. Their demise is inevitable if they stay in Tolka - at some stage. At the whim of a third party. At best they'd roam for a few years and lose any identity they had before going under completely. At least by moving to Dalymount they can rebuild their brand in a custom wing of a brand new stadium within touching distance of their current ground and fan base. They can work on paying and writing down some debts and they'd be in far better control of their own destiny. Stadium shares between city rivals is fairly common across the world and not something to be fearful of.

As for compensation. They're not the primary leaseholder if I recall correctly. They're letting it from the leaseholder developer. Wouldn't it be like someone who is subletting an apartment trying to be compensated for persuading their landlord to sell the main lease off even though they know they have a nicer apartment at better and more secure terms...sure, you might expect some nominal amount but come on...it's a cash grab.

[geysir]

I thought it was a welcome gesture from Swansea to rest their 4 Euro Finals bound players for the last 2 epl games, after a hard fought 2nd half to their season.
Iceman Gylfi Sigursson swept their player of the year awards (getting one more than Richie Keogh).
Supporters' Player of the Year – Players' Player of the Year and Away Player of the Year.

Despite resting their best players, Swansea firmly pooped upon West Ham's CL hopes. I was reminded of Wolves (with McCarthy) getting fined for fielding a weakened team v Man U at Old Trafford. Would they have been fined had they won the game?

[DeLorean]

Richie got three poty awards as well. What the hell is 'Away poty'? Best foreign player or best performer in the away games? Both seem a bit mad so maybe it's something else.

[geysir]

Best performer in away games I presume.
I'd have a goal of the year award instead, even so, Gylfi would have won that as well.

Not much at stake on the last day of the epl, I'll miss those triple split screens and images of fans at their wits end, brokenhearted, ecstatic and sometimes all 3 inside a minute with the same fans.

[DeLorean]

Yeah, Sunderland's revival was very damaging to the last day entertainment levels. Basically the only major thing to be decided is the 4th CL spot and even that appears straight forward enough, you'd never know with Man City though.

Edit - Jaysus... Only saw this (https://www.theguardian.com/football/live/2016/may/15/manchester-city-and-manchester-united-chase-champions-league-place-live-premier-league-swansea-bournemouth) now.

[geysir]

The Swansea equaliser defined the term "it took a wicked deflection",
apart from that the main entertainment for the crowd was jeering at Man City fluffing their chances.

[Stuttgart88]

Funny quote on Twitter: only Spurs could be in a two horse title race and still come third.

[DeLorean]

That must be beyond head wrecking for their fans. They'd have killed for a third place finish in August, now it seems like a bit of a disaster. They be over it by the time the new season starts though I guess.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

West Ham have apparently bid £25m for Callum Wilson & Matt Ritchie. Seriously.

[OwlsFan]

Quite enjoyed the FA Cup Final if not the result. Pardew was a bit stupid saying before the match that Man U intend to fade late in games and as for the dance when Palace scored.....the less said the better. He, and the "experts", seemed to treat the two instances where the ref didn't play the advantage as potentially two cast iron goals when all they would have amounted to as the possibility of two reasonable chances, particularly the first one but there was a lot to do. Man U were probably there for the taking if Palace believed a bit more. Shame for the Palace fans. What is means to a Man U fan I am not sure with a host of similar trophies, league titles and European cups under their belts. Pleasant but not ecstatic ? Just wondering.

[DeLorean]

Well I suppose it puts them level with Arsenal on the roll of honour list, these kind of things are important when it comes to bragging, etc. Probably important that it stopped the rot a little bit too, the longer a side goes without a trophy the more pressure accumulates. Personally I'm happy for Van Gaal, at least he has something to show for his time there and keeps his record going of winning something with all the clubs he's managed. Pardew's dance though?... You really need to finish the job if you're going to do something like that! Not allowing play to develop was really basic stuff from Clattenburg, I'm not sure how he's so highly rated, has some shocking performances. Yeah they weren't certain goals, but infuriating nonetheless.

[OwlsFan]

Well I suppose it puts them level with Arsenal on the roll of honour list, these kind of things are important when it comes to bragging, etc. Probably important that it stopped the rot a little bit too, the longer a side goes without a trophy the more pressure accumulates. Personally I'm happy for Van Gaal, at least he has something to show for his time there and keeps his record going of winning something with all the clubs he's managed. Pardew's dance though?... You really need to finish the job if you're going to do something like that! Not allowing play to develop was really basic stuff from Clattenburg, I'm not sure how he's so highly rated, has some shocking performances. Yeah they weren't certain goals, but infuriating nonetheless.

So their pleasure might be in a statistic rather than the actual joy of winning one of the three major trophies in England ?

Agree re Clattenburg. I am not one to knock refs, unless they ignore a Frenchman handling a ball, but I agree that I have seen much better refs with less showy hairstyles in Europe.

[DeLorean]

So their pleasure might be in a statistic rather than the actual joy of winning one of the three major trophies in England ?

I suppose like everything, it would have varied from supporter to supporter. There were a lot of reasons to be satisfied with it:

-First post-Fergie trophy of any significance
-Record equalling cup win
-First FA Cup win since 2004 despite having a big tradition in the competition
-Rooney/Carrick first FA Cup win (have won everything else at club level)
-Something to show for LVG's time in charge, go out on a high, keep his own personal club record going
-Avoiding the negativity that would have come with losing
-Lots of new players who hadn't won silverware with United previously
-Success often breeds success

I think there's enough there to make it a very good victory, but probably satisfaction and relief more than anything euphoric, given their disappointing season and being generally spoilt rotten in the recent past.