Greece!

[Wolfman]

Any thoughts?
And how Ireland could or should be impacted?

[Spudulika]

Woke up to this today, surprised a little as I thought it would be closer. The hipster MinFin left, now it's all to play for.

They'll come to an agreement, it just depends on how good it will be for Greece. The annoying part is the posturing from the UK and US, they're up to their necks in this and need to get involved. Russia has been a bit so-so on it, but when the standard of living in Greece still outstrips Russia.....they have enough issues at home, both with Ukraine and IS!

[GypsyBlackCat]

Credit to the Greeks for standing up for themselves. But I just hope they haven't signed their own death warrant.

[White Horse]

Credit to the Greeks for standing up for themselves. But I just hope they haven't signed their own death warrant.

It one thing to stand up for yourself, it's another to pay your own way.

The Greeks are good at the former, but hopeless at the latter.

[Real ale Madrid]

It one thing to stand up for yourself, it's another to pay your own way.

The Greeks are good at the former, but hopeless at the latter.

That's unfair to the Greek people who have been putting up with Austerity for the past 7 odd years. I think the narrative painted at the Greek people is annoying. You can't employ these sort of measures indefinitely - the IMF have come out and said that this debt is unsustainable. All the Greek people asked for yesterday was a bit of a break.

[GypsyBlackCat]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greece-holds-decisive-referendum-on-christ-knows-what-2015070399871

This is how I feel about Greece.;)

[Mr A]

That's unfair to the Greek people who have been putting up with Austerity for the past 7 odd years. I think the narrative painted at the Greek people is annoying. You can't employ these sort of measures indefinitely - the IMF have come out and said that this debt is unsustainable. All the Greek people asked for yesterday was a bit of a break.

While all this is true, they did elect the governments that cooked the books, tolerated massive corruption and ran the country into the ground. I hope a deal can be done that gets Greece back on its feet, but they seriously need to sort themselves out as well.

[Real ale Madrid]

While all this is true, they did elect the governments that cooked the books, tolerated massive corruption and ran the country into the ground. I hope a deal can be done that gets Greece back on its feet, but they seriously need to sort themselves out as well.

Agreed but it think its time for some common sense in terms of debt write off as well - no country is going to be able to sort themselves out after a wipeout of 25% of its economy and a 25% unemployment rate. Its no harm to see someone fight for the guy on the street for a change. I'm sure the corruption and tax evasion are still taking place there but I suspect not by the majority of the working class who generally end up carrying the can.

[mypost]

When is the second referendum?

[Eminence Grise]

hipster MinFin

Can a hipster be a serious economist? Surely that's an Oxi-moron?

I think the Greek government is in over its heads, wedded to an ideology becase... it's the ideology, stupid. They gambled that they could hardball the economic forces ranged against them and found that their ideological inflexibility was surpassed by a superior inflexibility. It makes you think of the hames Sinn Fein and the hard left would make of this place since it's generally the same guff they've spouted over the last few years. It seems that, not unalike other countries, Tsipras and Vafourakis found it much easier to offer solutions out of government than in it.

The real tragedy is what is going to happen to the Greek people while the politicians phart around looking busy. This picture was in the Guardian last week and more than anything, it made me despondent and angry all at the same time. http://agora-dialogue.com/2015/07/04/crying-greek-pensioner-the-story-behind-the-poignant-photo/

[bennocelt]

Can a hipster be a serious economist? Surely that's an Oxi-moron?

I think the Greek government is in over its heads, wedded to an ideology becase... it's the ideology, stupid. They gambled that they could hardball the economic forces ranged against them and found that their ideological inflexibility was surpassed by a superior inflexibility. It makes you think of the hames Sinn Fein and the hard left would make of this place since it's generally the same guff they've spouted over the last few years. It seems that, not unalike other countries, Tsipras and Vafourakis found it much easier to offer solutions out of government than in it.

The real tragedy is what is going to happen to the Greek people while the politicians phart around looking busy. This picture was in the Guardian last week and more than anything, it made me despondent and angry all at the same time. http://agora-dialogue.com/2015/07/04/crying-greek-pensioner-the-story-behind-the-poignant-photo/

Conveniently forgetting the great politicians that got both Ireland and Greece in the shiss in the first place:rolleyes:

[Eminence Grise]

Conveniently forgetting nothing. It's hard to forget when my pay slip and Mrs Grise's are a reminder of how much we're paying for this mess. Harder still when students ask me if it's alright to pay their fees in instalments (it's less than €300 to do a QQI Level 5 or 6 course) because neither they nor their families have that much money to hand (or little, more accurately), or when they tell me they can't afford their bus fares to come to college, and well up with tears of frustration and shame when they ask if I can get the college to put a few quid credit on their Leap cards. A f***ing tenner means the world to these kids.... These are the faces I see, Benno, far too often - and will remember for a very long time.

I addressed a current facet of the debate, criticised the inflexible ideology on both sides, and pointed to the human tragedy that is unfolding with the link. Rehashing the political ineptitude that has gone before contributes nothing to the points already made on this particular thread.

So, less of the glib rhetorical flourishes, OK?

[bennocelt]

Spare me the sob story!
So whats the solution. The past wasn't great, these lot are not so good, the future doesn't look bright. That's great, thanks!

At least this Greek government are doing something different. It might work, probably wont. But looking at Merkel yesterday chewing a wasp was the highlight of the evening for me. They played it well so far, called Merkels bluff, now thats a first!


See Iceland jailed a few more bankers
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/06/12/iceland-jailed-bankers-and-rejected-austerity-and-its-been-success

[Eminence Grise]

You're welcome. If I had a solution to the Greek economic crisis, do you think I'd be posting here on a wet afternoon in Dublin? Any ideas yourself? (Genuinely asked, not point scoring.)

In a rare case of finding common ground with you, riling Merkel is no bad thing!

[bennocelt]

36 degrees here in central Europe hence my narky levels are quite high:o I literally melted at work the other day

Is there not at least some agreement now that the debt levels for Greece are so high that they will never be paid, ever. That can only lead to some sort of debt forgiveness or at least some attempt at restructuring. (whatever people might think)
To keep up repayments under the present system is ridiculous.
Of course Greece also needs to restructure.
I wonder how much they were lent, and how much was added as interest.

[Eminence Grise]

Feels 36 in Dublin, too - in Fahrenheit, though!

The Greek debt is about 175% of its GDP. Ours is in the110s% I think? Their unemployment is in the mid 20s%; ours will dip under 10% this year. We're coping, but just about and any shock would mean more austerity and a lot of cash out the economy. The differences between us and Greece is that while we had very dodgy tax avoidance, it was among the so-called elite; the Revenue Commissioners' day to day collection of income tax, VAT, excise etc was very efficient - in Greece, it seems that tax evasion was endemic. That will have to be addressed, no matter what the future holds for them. We also took our medicine very early on and while living here was very uncomfortable for the last few years (and we have nothing to be proud of in our treatment of the vulnerable in society) things are gradually improving; the Greeks made a hames of their bail-out. Maybe our politicians were weaker and less principled than the Greeks, but we will suffer for less time it seems.

Anyway, this was on the BBC website today (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33407742):
http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/14DA/production/_84083350_greek_debt_624_block_2.gif

There's no way Greece can repay what it owes, short of a repayment schedule running across three generations. But there's no way debt forgiveness, restructuring, write-down or any or the accepted terms will be written into any agreement; I'm interested to see what term will be agreed on that means 'no concessions on debt, apart from these concessions - and here's the cash'.

[Mr A]

This little snippet is pretty good:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJU9BVkW8AAtmD9.png

From here: https://twitter.com/tomstandage/status/618467618710794240

I think most hear agree- Greece needs help, but it also needs to reform itself in a pretty major way.

[Spudulika]

It is interesting that the US have now gotten their shoes on and started making shapes. I do think that both they and the UK need to take a role in this, and start talking debt forgiveness or at least some sort of assistance. Their own financial institutions and investors are tied up in this mess and casting it as a Eurozone only problem is a nonsense, even the Russians have admitted this - and are severely worried. The EU is still Russia's main trade partner and even though Putin just signed up to take Saudi blood money and wants a bit to love me long time with China, he and his cronies know the EU is their main road to salvation - and this is not hyperbole. Russia is really screwed if Europe cracks.

With this whole Greek mess I'm reminded of the wonderful offer of assistance, in the form of a loan, from the UK when Ireland was in trouble. The irony being that the UK was effectively looking to lend us money to pay debts owed to them, so as to prevent a major economic issue there. And this is the same in Greece. They will get money to pay pay money to keep European institutions from getting a hit.

It was telling when Greece stopped selling passports to Russians as soon as Russia said thanks but no thanks to bailing them out. Greece will be rescued, but it won't be from the people they christianised but from an EU/UK/US mix, I hope.

Benno, where in CEE are you? Poland?

[bennocelt]

Benno, where in CEE are you? Poland?

Eh, Switzerland! All fine and dandy in this country, albeit I do my grocery shopping in France every weekend!

[peadar1987]

Like many situations, I'm kind of on the fence about this one, in spite of it seeming like everyone else sees it as black and white, one way or the other.

On one hand, the Greeks have put themselves in this mess, by voting in corrupt politicians, and living he high life on borrowed money, and it's a bit rich that they're not complaining when they're now expected to pay that back.

On the other hand, the people who lent them the money are equally at fault. They offered risky loans, and didn't anticipate or plan for the fact that they might not be paid back. It's unfair to hold the Greeks wholly responsible for what is essentially somebody else's gambling debt.

Similar situation to Ireland. The Germans have acted like it was a huge favour they did us, lending us the money to bail out the banks. The thing that is only rarely said is that if the Irish banks had gone bust, they wouldn't have been able to pay back their German creditors, leading to the very real possibility of a much more expensive German banking crisis. Taking money from the German taxpayer (to be recouped from the Irish taxpayer) avoided a potentially very severe situation in Germany, and benefits them at least as much as it benefits us.

[Mr A]

While I agree in general, the people who loaned them the money are not equally at fault if Greece lied about their true position- which they did. In any case at this stage the money is owed to other countries and institutions.

[GypsyBlackCat]

I was reading that the retirement age in Greece is 54 and over 50% of the population live on a pension. Only 11% of the country pays taxes and it has the highest amount public servants in Europe. That can't be right?

[jbyrne]

I was reading that the retirement age in Greece is 54 and over 50% of the population live on a pension. Only 11% of the country pays taxes and it has the highest amount public servants in Europe. That can't be right?

cant believe what you hear. I heard the retirement age was 1 year higher than Germany and that the greeks work a longer working week than the germans

[Real ale Madrid]

greeks work a longer working week than the germans

That's not hearsay, but a fact according to Forbes.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danbigman/2015/07/01/greek-debt-crisis-dont-blame-laziness-greeks-work-longest-hours-in-europe-far-more-than-french-or-germans/

Yet Angela and her business leaders will have you think these people are the laziest in Europe.

[DannyInvincible]

I was reading that the retirement age in Greece is 54 and over 50% of the population live on a pension. Only 11% of the country pays taxes and it has the highest amount public servants in Europe. That can't be right?

The average age of retirement for Greek men in 2012 was 61.9. In Germany, it was 62.1. (http://www.oecd.org/els/emp/ageingandemploymentpolicies-statisticsonaverageeffectiveageofretirement.htm) Greeks also work longer hours on average, as demonstrated above. Over a fifth of the Greek population are pensioners (http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tps00028); not 50 per cent.

[GypsyBlackCat]

To be honest the whole thing makes my head hurt!! I don't know what to believe or who is in the right or wrong. So the Greeks got themselves into to this mess. They basically have more going out than they take in and have borrowed beyond their means. They don't wont to pay back the their creditors or at least not at the rates agreed. So they more or less want us to carry the can for their mess.

OR

Greece is crippled and has no way off paying back it's creditors and is looking for a break. Mean while the EU and IMF are applying the squeeze to the Greeks pay back their loans even if they can't. The Greeks are willing to pay but want a fairer deal.

[peadar1987]

To be honest the whole thing makes my head hurt!! I don't know what to believe or who is in the right or wrong. So the Greeks got themselves into to this mess. They basically have more going out than they take in and have borrowed beyond their means. They don't wont to pay back the their creditors or at least not at the rates agreed. So they more or less want us to carry the can for their mess.

OR

Greece is crippled and has no way off paying back it's creditors and is looking for a break. Mean while the EU and IMF are applying the squeeze to the Greeks pay back their loans even if they can't. The Greeks are willing to pay but want a fairer deal.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between. Like 9/11:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/semicontrolled_demolition.png

[Spudulika]

There appears to be a little bit of nose rubbing going in the meeja, the Greeks have caved and all that. Terrible situation for the country.

And maybe it's just me, but everything written in this thread about Greece - corrupt politicians, insider deals, golden circle etc etc - maybe it's just me, but it is Ireland but with sunshine.

[Mr A]

It really isn't. We have our problems, but the country has been far better run than Greece.

[TheBoss]

Former [United States] Labor Secretary Robert Reich: People Seem to Forget that Greek Debt Crisis Engineered by Goldman Sachs (http://www.pappaspost.com/former-labor-secretary-robert-reich-people-seem-to-forget-that-greek-debt-crisis-engineered-by-goldman-sachs/)

[Spudulika]

It really isn't. We have our problems, but the country has been far better run than Greece.

To a degree, but mainly because we're lucky to be english-speaking with solid backers, plus we're more than happy to do what's needed to get ahead. Cronyism, corruption and dodgy deals I'd almost feel sure in saying are on a par with Greece.

[Crosby87]

The NYT said that on one of the Islands, 8 percent of the pop had filed for benefits you get when you are blind, some additional 700 bucks a month or something. This included cab drivers and one guy who was a professional bird photographer. The percentage was something like 700 times the amount of blind people per 1000 people in the rest of europe. Hard to see what things like that have to do with Goldman Sachs.