if someone breaks into your home........ [Archive]

the 12 th man

07/12/2004, 7:23 AM

exile

07/12/2004, 7:31 AM

ya heard that on newstalk 106 with george hook.
does anyone actual know the law in this country in realation to this ??
because i think and im not sure that your allowed use reasonable force but where is the line drawn???

the 12 th man

07/12/2004, 7:37 AM

does anyone actual know the law in this country in realation to this ??
because i think and im not sure that your allowed use reasonable force but where is the line drawn???

well the high profile "shotgun case" in england is certainly not a runner.
apparantly the guy who used this was disqualified from having a weapon on the grounds that he was known to the police and deemed not suitable to have same.

Macy

07/12/2004, 7:58 AM

If you come into my house uninvited then you deserve the sh�t kicked out of you (and I'll attempt to do it and face the consequences later). Having said that, I don't have a baseball bat, golf club etc beside the bed as I'm not that paranoid about it happening tbh.

However, if we start allowing people to shoot intruders we'll be on a slippery slope to a yank style gun culture...

I do think we should be able to protect our homes in whatever manner we like once it's on our property. I know in England people have had to remove the broken glass on the top of garden walls, as people injured themselves getting in (and in some cases doing a legger out of) houses with that security measure....

carrickharp

07/12/2004, 8:14 AM

After 3 break-ins this past few years (the last being Nov last year when my Playstation, games, DVD/DVD�s etc �2,000 of stuff :( ) our rented house is like a fortress with grills on all the windows (except the front windows God help us if there is a fire :eek: ).

Anyway I now have a Baseball Bat at my bedside and by God if I or one of the other housemates catch an �intruder� in our place things will get nasty, fed up paying taxes for these scum who think they can just take what they want :mad: .

Is there not something in the law that you cannot �tackle� an �intruder� downstairs but if he�s upstairs it�s game on, something about self-defence?

Macy

07/12/2004, 8:16 AM

It's pretty straightforward, one can only use reasonable force to protect oneself or one's property. The law obviously could not permit someone to use unreasonable or disproportional force eg. the farmer in England who shot burglars, when he had carefully lain in wait for them, lined them up and squeezed off a few shots, was correctly imprisoned.
Do you have sympathy for the burglars? I don't think shooting burglars is the way to go (as burglars would then start carrying guns as par for the course and so the spiral continues), however I'd say it put a few scumbags off targetting remote farmhouses for a while....

fosterdollar

07/12/2004, 8:18 AM

Is there not something in the law that you cannot �tackle� an �intruder� downstairs but if he�s upstairs it�s game on, something about self-defence?

Pretty fcuked if you're living in a bungalow then aren't you?

the 12 th man

07/12/2004, 8:20 AM

i think where the law and most people go their separate ways is when the burgular decides he does'nt want to be in your house anymore (cos he just caught sight of you/me and wants out).

you can't chase them up the road and then clobber them.i think the shotgun guy did this.

carrickharp

07/12/2004, 8:21 AM

It's pretty straightforward, one can only use reasonable force to protect oneself or one's property. The law obviously could not permit someone to use unreasonable or disproportional force eg. the farmer in England who shot burglars, when he had carefully lain in wait for them, lined them up and squeezed off a few shots, was correctly imprisoned.

Tony Martin (http://www.tonymartinsupportgroup.org/) was I my view right he was fed up getting Burgled.

Macy

07/12/2004, 8:28 AM

No, none whatsoever. But that doesn't mean they deserve to get a baseball bat across the head for nicking a �60 DVD player...
If they come into my house to nick my DVD player I think they do. Let the intruder beware, not the other way around.

As a matter of interest Conor, have you ever been burgled? As I certainly think the invasion of your private space and relief of your property definitely influences how you feel about this...

Macy

07/12/2004, 8:36 AM

No. But the law should most certainly not be made by victims.
It certainly shouldn't be made in favour of the criminals either...

tiktok

07/12/2004, 8:47 AM

But that doesn't mean they deserve to get a baseball bat across the head for nicking a �60 DVD player...

I agree with whoever said that they'd come out swinging and face the consequences later. I don't see that anyone who breaks into your house and represents a threat to your property and your person should have the right to complain if they get a kicking.

Call it an occupational hazard. :rolleyes:

carrickharp

07/12/2004, 8:49 AM

My point is that these feckers have no right to enter anyone�s property, once it happens to you, it an awful feeling (my DVD also cost more than �60 there was two taken one my housmate also had one)

I arrived home from work that evening to find a table against the front door, to find your bedroom ransacked, your personal items damaged, stuff you bought with your hard-earned money taken by scum, then wait a few hours for the Gards who can�t do nothing as we were just another statistic. I have no time for these types I�m just waiting to get up some morning to find my car gone.. :(

Peadar

07/12/2004, 8:49 AM

No. There is no difference in law depending on your height off the ground...

I don't think it's to do with height off the ground.
I think it's about whether or not you could get out of the house.
If you felt trapped upstairs and were unable to get out via an exit downstairs there could be greater justification for "self defence."

I'm my opinion, if someone enters your home unlawfully they leave their civil rights at the door.

When I was in college some scumbag climbed 3 stories up and got in through a window while we slept. Took around IR�1,500 of stuff.
The garda� said they couldn't get clean fingerprints and there was nothing more that we could do. They said we were lucky because in some cases the scumbags smear their faeces on the wall and trash the place.
I consider myself very lucky indeed! :rolleyes:

Some advice though, golf clubs aren't great in confined spaces because you can't get a decent swing. A police baton is handy if you can get one.

Call it an occupational hazard. :rolleyes:

Excellent! :D

Macy

07/12/2004, 8:52 AM

It's not in favour of the criminals though. What so wrong with the idea that a reasonable response is allowed? If it were any other way, we should start looking for Judge Dredd...
What do you propose then? Cower in a bedroom while it takes the Guards hours to respond to your emergency call? As sure as night follows day, if you just chased them out of the house they would never be caught by conventional means....

Macy

07/12/2004, 8:54 AM

Some advice though, golf clubs aren't great in confined spaces because you can't get a decent swing.
Sand Wedge would be my choice.....

Macy

07/12/2004, 9:01 AM

Peadar

07/12/2004, 9:01 AM

Sand Wedge would be my choice.....

Only if it has a steel shaft and you hold it short.

Conor, I genuinely hope that your home isn't violated but I can assure you that if you were a victim of such a crime, you'd be singing from our song sheet. It's a horrible feeling of utter vulnerability!
It's very easy to be pragmatic and say material things can be replaced but it's about knowing that a potentially dangerous person, without regard for the law, was within touching distance of you and your family.

If the person was an asylum seeker who had just got into this country, had a wife and children to feed

Are you suggesting that the government don't adequately care for asylum seekers and that they are forced to commit crime in order to survive?

Jim Smith

07/12/2004, 9:05 AM

If the person was an asylum seeker who had just got into this country, had a wife and children to feed, and wasn't as aware of the importance of private property as we are, would you rather him club him with a baton or beat him with a golf club?
Wouldn't that be the fault of the government for leaving this poor individual and his family to starve? Is this the socialism of FF?

I never did law, politics or much social geography so you'll have to help me out. In what cultures/countries is it socially acceptable to break into private property and steal things?

You must be tired because this isn't up to your usual standard of wind-up :p

the 12 th man

07/12/2004, 9:06 AM

bear in mind that these intruders d'ont give a toss about how you are affected financially,physically or mentally by their actions.
christ they would rob kids toys at x mas ffs................................ :mad:

noby

07/12/2004, 9:06 AM

If I ever found myself in that situation I would hope that (a) they would leg it out the door, or (b), I use enough reasonable force that they're not likely to retaliate in a hurry. That to me is reasonable force
Unfortunatley I don't play golf, but I'm sure a hurley would suffice.

And don't give me this hungry children to feed...

Jim Smith

07/12/2004, 9:10 AM

I genuinely hope that your home isn't violated but I can assure you that if you were a victim of such a crime, you'd be singing from our song sheet. It's a horrible feeling of utter vulnerability!
It's very easy to be pragmatic and say material things can be replaced but it's about knowing that a potentially dangerous person, without regard for the law, was within touching distance of you and your family.
The feeling of being violated is one of the biggist problems. My flat in Glasgow got done years ago and I still remenber the feeling in my stomach when evrything I had had been ransacked and the police were there with a 'well what do you expect us to do about it, nothing much was taken' attitude.

noby

07/12/2004, 9:12 AM

Is he the pinup of the 'shoot 'em on sight' brigade?

Possibly. But no-ones talking about shooting here.

Macy

07/12/2004, 9:13 AM

BTW, for anyone who feels Tony Martin was some hero when he shot a 16 year old in the back from 12 foot with a shotgun, I would also point out that the shotgun was illegally held as he had his licence removed when he shot at a car previously. Is he the pinup of the 'shoot 'em on sight' brigade?
Or was he a scared old farmer who was getting harrassed by scumbags? Do you think the 16 year old would've been running if he hadn't had a shotgun? Tony Martin would've been just another statistic of a vulnerable man beaten up and burgled if he'd jumped out and shouted "Stop, or I call the police".

the 12 th man

07/12/2004, 9:25 AM

His neighbours gave evidence that it was only a matter of time before he shot someone. He may have been scared, they may have been scumbags, they may even have been prepared to give him a hiding, but because he used the kid for target practice and killed him we'll never know.

most people would not argue with you about this (including the police guy last night).this incident did not help the case of the burgled person as the farmer was not a suitable firearm holder.

notwithstanding this,the rule of thumb should be:break into someones house and if it goes pearshaped (for the robber) well tough sh*t.

Macy

07/12/2004, 9:31 AM

His neighbours gave evidence that it was only a matter of time before he shot someone. He may have been scared, they may have been scumbags, they may even have been prepared to give him a hiding, but because he used the kid for target practice and killed him we'll never know.
Well I started by saying that I didn't agree with guns coming into play, but still the little sh�t got what was coming. Personally I'd rather he got a crack around the head with a club, rather than killed, but that's where my sympathy stops. If he wasn't where he wasn't supposed to be, nothing would've happened to him.

Jim Smith

07/12/2004, 9:33 AM

Are you arguing that people should be allowed to take the law into their own hands because of the inadequacy of the crime prevention services?
No. I'm simply trying to get across the feeling of hopelessness and helplessness that you can experience if you get robbed.

fosterdollar

07/12/2004, 9:34 AM

A mate of mine had an intruder to his flat in Rathmines. He managed to give the guy a few digs and slaps and kept him subdued till the cops arrived. Granted the guy has some martial arts knowledge and he's quite tall but as he said, the fella who broke in was a bit of a string of **** probably trying to fund some gear for the night.

Anyway, my point is that I don't think it is fair to say that kicking the snot of someone solely for breaking into your gaff is okay, per se. However, I think you should be entitled to keep the use of force a small step higher than what they are using on you, given the circumstances. That is to say, if you meet them in the hall, confront them and they start legging it then I would say you are entitled to swing for him or whatever but not start throwing bricks and stuff at him. Furthermore, if the intruder was to be aggressive, then the use of offensive weapons would be acceptable. I don't like the idea of loose laws on guns for obvious, aforementioned reasons. Having said that, if I was struggling with a thug in the kitchen and getting a bit of hiding as well, if a knife or similar sharp implement came to hand, he'd be getting it in the arm/leg for sure.

Peadar

07/12/2004, 9:40 AM

Is he the pinup of the 'shoot 'em on sight' brigade?

Conor, I think you're trying to discredit our argument simply on the basis that one individual went too far with regard to defending his home.
Bear in mind that this happened in England, not Ireland and he was punished by law for his actions. Most people will agree that this case was unusual and it certainly shouldn't be a template for a discussion on reasonable force.

If you want to discuss criminal cases from England why not discuss the case where a teacher was stabbed to death in his home in Chiswick, west London.
Robert Symons, a father of two young girls, was stabbed through the heart with a kitchen knife by an intruder.

Or John Monckton who died of stab wounds after he and his wife were attacked by an intruder in their Chelsea home. Their nine-year-old daughter, who was in the house at the time, called police. Can we even begin to imagine what the Monckton family are going through!? Should any child in civilised society witness such an atrocity!?

tiktok

07/12/2004, 9:54 AM

If the person was an asylum seeker who had just got into this country, had a wife and children to feed, and wasn't as aware of the importance of private property as we are, would you rather him club him with a baton or beat him with a golf club?

I'll have the golf club.
If someone is breaking into and sneaking around someone's house at three in the morning, he knows well that he's doing something wrong, and he knows it's not his property. His circumstances might be unfortunate, but that will matter little to someone who perceives him as a threat to his own wife and child.

Conor, you quite correctly stated that laws can't be built based on the experiences of the victims, but equally so laws can't be based on hard cases or on the circumstances of the criminals. If the judge decides there are mitigating circumstances he/she can be more lenient in court.

A person confronted by an intruder in their home can't be expected to sit down and ask the criminal 'what drove you to a life of crime?'.

razor

07/12/2004, 12:55 PM

But that doesn't mean they deserve to get a baseball bat across the head for nicking a �60 DVD player...
Yes, if its my DVD player, whatever the cost, basey bat it is.
If they intrude into my house and put me, my wife or my child under threat then they must face the consequences.

Some advice though, golf clubs aren't great in confined spaces because you can't get a decent swing.
I've often thought of that and may have to downgrade my basey bat to a baton or a small club like weapon.
I have a feeling Conors choice of weapon as always is a rather large wooden spoon. ;)

liam88

07/12/2004, 1:04 PM

Once someone is in your house you have a right to protect youself, your family and your poperty!
If you shoot them it's their own floggin' fault for being there-it isn't that the DVD is only worth �60 in the fact thtat they're in your hosue knicking it.
In England they have just changed the law so that burglars can now no longer sue you (yes it did happen!) if they hurt themselves while breaking into your house.
Another chap recently woke up to find his wife being groped....he got up and the intruder legged it knocking their 3 month old baby out of his crib, got an iron bar and hit the man. The man stabs the intruders arm-intruder legs it....man phones the police....tells them what happens....they arrest HIM and leave the wife skane up with a hurt baby and a broken window.
Lie in wait and attack them-it's THEIR fault-they shouldn't be there!
Me? I've got a hurley that I wouldn't be afraid to use

Peadar

07/12/2004, 1:05 PM

I have a feeling Conors choice of weapon as always is a rather large wooden spoon. ;)

No, he's quite happy to make do with a slap on the wrist once he's determined their social circumstances warrant such an extreme response. :D

liam88

07/12/2004, 1:07 PM

Aye Conor I know it's going to sound really rich coming from a 16 year old lad but having seen how much kids mean to their parents i'd be willing to bet my drum kit that you would be singing from another song sheet if/when you have children!

the 12 th man

07/12/2004, 1:10 PM

but having seen how much kids mean to their parents i'd be willing to bet my drum kit that you would be singing from another song sheet if/when you have children!

you bet you do.
just wait til you feel like your child/children are under threat,
man o man if i caught some fcuker in my kids bedroom during the night............ :mad: ...

other than santa that is ;)

strangeirish

07/12/2004, 1:43 PM

Sign on a house in Texas with a man pictured with a double barrelled shotgun
This place is guarded three times a week, you guess which one's!

pete

07/12/2004, 2:13 PM

Its illegal to place barbedwire, broken glass or similar on the walls to your property.

I would think the courts would judge what was fair & reasonable to protect yourself in any intrusion. I would also think be allowed more force to prtect your being than actual property. Pursuing someone with a shotgun ain't gonna cut it in this country either.

noby

07/12/2004, 2:42 PM

just wait til you feel like your child/children are under threat,
man o man if i caught some fcuker in my kids bedroom during the night............ :mad: ...

You got that right!

other than santa that is ;)

No way. I'm going lying in wait for him this year. Bloody cost me a fortune!

the 12 th man

07/12/2004, 2:50 PM

No way. I'm going lying in wait for him this year. Bloody cost me a fortune!

:D :D :eek:

Peadar

07/12/2004, 3:10 PM

No way. I'm going lying in wait for him this year. Bloody cost me a fortune!

Looks like someone got to him before you.
See here... (http://www.funnypart.com/pictures/FunnyPart-com-dead.jpg) :D

crc

07/12/2004, 4:53 PM

I think the right principle is "reasonable force". The idea is not to protect scumbags - they can all go to hell, IMO - but rather to protect both sides when its not so simple as good guy-vs-bad guy;

...when I was much younger (around 10 or 11) a friend of mine (and no, this is not a euphamism for me!!) told me that he once broke into a neighbour's house when he knew they weren't going to be around. He didn't take anything. He didn't damage anything. He just did it for the 'buzz', because he didn't like the guy. Nothing more came of it. It was a pretty stupid thing to do, and in no way am I saying that it was OK to do even that.

However, what if the neighbour had been at home, and caught the guy. Would it have been appropriate to use physical force, just because you saw some guy in the dark? I think there are no easy answers in this situation. I've been on the victims side aswell, and nothing eats at you inside like being violated in that way.

I have no time for scumbags, professional thieves or anyone who would use indiscriminate violence against someone, but sometimes its just a 10-year old kid who's doing something that's pretty stupid, but not that malicious.

Metrostars

07/12/2004, 5:39 PM

The first and thankfully only time when I was robbed was when I was 18 and had just gotten my first car. Someone smashed the window, stole my newly installed radio/tape deck (16 years ago...) and stole all my tapes except a Phil Collins tape my then girlfriend liked to listen to :confused:

My brother in Galway has had his van broken into a number of times with a number of his work tools stolen. During the middle of the day. The Gardai, great investigators that they are, told him they knew who was stealing the tools but could not prove anything.

Fair_play_boy

07/12/2004, 10:10 PM

Some of the states in the US allow a home owner or legal tenant to shoot and kill an intruder even if they are still in the drive way, just so long as they are on the property. It is called the "Make My Day" law in the media, for an obvious reason.
I don't think I will be bothered by burglars. We have kids and the house always looks a mess. If anybody thinks of breaking in, one look in the window and they will think that someone beat them to it. :D

sylvo

07/12/2004, 10:13 PM

i heard some guy on the radio last eve.he happened to be in a unique situation of being both a policeman (in england) and the chairman of the "victims of crime trust" (something like that anyway).

the gist of what he was saying was that he thinks that the intruder is too well protected in this situation.
you see if you are woken up at 3.30 am by a man/men in your bedroom or your kids bedroom you are supposed to react in a "reasonable way" to the situation.he was not advocating having a machine gun or anything just being able to have the likes of a 4 iron or similar to wrap around their head/s.if you
enter my house and i'm sure most people on here would be the same well then its all bets off and i would have no pity on anybody caught doing this.

myself,i've a nice cricket bat :eek:

Had to make a quick return to Ireland three weeks ago myself 12th due to my old building site of a house that I'm putting everything into to make a home for myself getting broke into by scumbags who seemed to think I had a DIY store in there.
I can count myself lucky that I had just damage to doors and and padlocks to deal with and that they left empty handed due to anything like power tools (which I would guess they were after) being locked away in relations houses. Sadly some of the nearby house's were'nt as lucky as me an had thousands of euro worth of stuff stolen a couple of days before my place was broke into by I would guess the same gang.
I can back up what some of the posters on here are saying who have lost far more than what happened to me three weeks ago that it is a real kick in the teeth to find your home damaged and your belongings thrown around the place as well as to feel that not only has someone been keeping an quick glance at yer property and what they might be able to steal from it, but also to your movements in and out it.
Scum that go around braking into homes have no feelings for the people who's homes they are robbing from so why should anyone have any feelings for them. One hope I have for the scum who broke into my place is that one of their next victims might be able to catch them in the act and go to town on them.
I totally agree with yer on using force and whatever weapon that you can grab on scum who brake into homes.

Macy

08/12/2004, 7:38 AM

I have no time for scumbags, professional thieves or anyone who would use indiscriminate violence against someone, but sometimes its just a 10-year old kid who's doing something that's pretty stupid, but not that malicious.
Sure you wouldn't need to beat him with a bat - quick slap around the head would've done...

the 12 th man

09/12/2004, 11:30 AM

Had to make a quick return to Ireland three weeks ago myself 12th due to my old building site of a house that I'm putting everything into to make a home for myself getting broke into by scumbags who seemed to think I had a DIY store in there.
I can count myself lucky that I had just damage to doors and and padlocks to deal with and that they left empty handed due to anything like power tools (which I would guess they were after) being locked away in relations houses. Sadly some of the nearby house's were'nt as lucky as me an had thousands of euro worth of stuff stolen a couple of days before my place was broke into by I would guess the same gang.
I can back up what some of the posters on here are saying who have lost far more than what happened to me three weeks ago that it is a real kick in the teeth to find your home damaged and your belongings thrown around the place as well as to feel that not only has someone been keeping an quick glance at yer property and what they might be able to steal from it, but also to your movements in and out it.
Scum that go around braking into homes have no feelings for the people who's homes they are robbing from so why should anyone have any feelings for them. One hope I have for the scum who broke into my place is that one of their next victims might be able to catch them in the act and go to town on them.
I totally agree with yer on using force and whatever weapon that you can grab on scum who brake into homes.

what a bummer. :mad:
you are going to be a target till you get finished :( .

the sergeant in my local town which as you know is not far from the "thoroughbread county" was renovating his house.
one night while the builders were still on site thieves stole all his roof slates (worth a few grand)before they were fitted...and he's a garda ffs

anto eile

09/12/2004, 12:39 PM

If the person was an asylum seeker who had just got into this country, had a wife and children to feed, and wasn't as aware of the importance of private property as we are, would you rather him club him with a baton or beat him with a golf club?

rubbish. anyone from anywehere in the world knows its wrong to break into another persons house and steal from them. "your honor, i deednt know eet was against the law" yeah right get real
if someone breaks into my home i should have the right to do whatever i like to him,with no restrictions.if i want to teach the fukcer a lesson and torture him to death over a period of months then thats his tough shyt