Shels and their tax affairs

[Colm]

Seems to be a lot of talk about Shels and their dealings with the taxman on both the Bohs and Pats forums......

http://gypsiesweb.proboards14.com/index.cgi?board=general&num=1101423449&action=display&start=0

www.saintsforum.tk

[patsh]

All speculation. Unless, and until, the Revenue commissioners actually investigate and find something wrong, it's all just talk, and possibly dangerous talk as well.

[Colm]

All speculation. Unless, and until, the Revenue commissioners actually investigate and find something wrong, it's all just talk, and possibly dangerous talk as well.

Yeah it seems to be all total specualtion at the moment but it makes for interesting reading, especially what they are saying on the Bohs forum and it makes you wonder.....

[sonofstan]

There used to be FFers who swore Charlie came by his money legitimately, too; if something is staring you in the face in this country, there'll be people who'll swear its invisible

[Macy]

All speculation. Unless, and until, the Revenue commissioners actually investigate and find something wrong, it's all just talk, and possibly dangerous talk as well.
The actual amounts of tax paid are from the CRO website, and are in the public domain already. Fair to say those figures are "interesting".

[Colm]

The actual amounts of tax paid are from the CRO website, and are in the public domain already. Fair to say those figures are "interesting".

I find it hard to understand how Bohs could have paid more tax than Shels, something has got to be wrong there.
Then when you learn that Pats also paid more than Shels, it really makes you wonder about what certain people are getting away with.

[ShelsTim]

Hang on just a minute now, you mean that Bohs fans are insinuating tax trouble at Shels? Wait, not only that, but Pats fans are backing them up?! Well **** me, get the Financial Times on it.

[higgins]

Its all talk and just talk....

They always go on about Shels and the taxman.

When I ask them to come up with something all I got was two figures from the CRO. I dont think anyone has any idea at how these figures were arrived and I dont think that the figures alone mean anything...

If someone understands the tax system in this country and would like to enlighten us then work away but they are major p!ssed that they are facing the intertoto and as its the off season there is plenty of straw clutching going on.

Next they will be saying we dont register our players!!! :D

[sonofstan]

Higgins, quite a few of the people posting on the Bohs board work for revenue or as accountants and actually DO understand the tax system...

[higgins]

Well please please please can they explain it to those of us who dont!!

And even better still can they not do something about it if its so clear......

[Macy]

If someone understands the tax system in this country and would like to enlighten us then work away
The PAYE and PRSI payments by a company are basically the tax deducted from the wages are staff (plus the PRSI contributions by the company if applicable). Basically what is stopped from the staffs gross wages giving them their net wages.

Hypothetically speaking obviously, if Company A has paid more than Company B, it would be a fair assumption that Company A has a higher wage bill than Company B. Assuming that all taxes are up to date.

A fully qualified accountant, rather than a part qualified bum who can't be arsed studying, may be able to explain more thoroughly but that's the jist.

[sonofstan]

as a - very - rough approximation, a companies PAYE and PRSI bill should represent about 40% of their wages bill ( this will vary depending on how much people are being paid and therefore what rate of Income Tax they're on - its a rough average) if therefore Bohs paid about a million over 4 years, our wage bill would be something in the region of 2.5 m. If Shels paid under 500k then that would give a wage bill of 1.25m of less. If they had 20 full time playing staff over those 4 years that would give an average gross - i.e pre- tax - wage of 15,000 euro - less than 300 a week. - about 20 euro more than the minimum wage.

[drummerboy]

Don't Shels have a sponsor a player scheme going which basically means the sponsor pays the player, which might account for the low amount paid on PAYE and PRSI

[Slash/ED]

Don't Shels have a sponsor a player scheme going which basically means the sponsor pays the player, which might account for the low amount paid on PAYE and PRSI

That wont stop people talking sh*te.

Funny isn't it, that every Bohs fan in the country suddenly wises up to the criminal tax evansion at Shelbourne that the government have missed right around the time that we get three of their best players on a free. All this despite no evidence whatsoever. What amazing timing that is.

[exile]

we are back again to the core issue of these rumours which is financial transparency of el clubs which is very little or none

[dougdub]

Well it seems not only has Ollie been talking shi* he's obviously been writing shi* as well especially when filling out the tax returns !!

Ah well has anyone mentioned the word bankrupt yet ? After all the fines etc..

As Kevin Keegan would say "I'd love it love it !"

[higgins]

Was every club not investigated as part of the A license rubbish ?

I assume that if there was any dodgy dealings then when shels opened their books they would have seen it....!!
The pay a player scheme could be the answer as to why the figures are different... No Bohs fan wants to hear this line!! :(
I understand PAYE and PRSI but what I dont understand is that how these two figure mean anything on there own. I dont think they do which is what I would like explained. If anyone out there can tell me how these figures prove that shels avoid paying TAX then let them speak up!!

Nobody as of yet has come up with anything apart from Ollie is a thug and how do shels have money unless they are cheating which i find childish.

Go and investigate this matter further if you think its an issue otherwise stop spreading lies about the back to back Champions :D

[Macy]

Was every club not investigated as part of the A license rubbish ?
hahahahaha :D


The pay a player scheme could be the answer as to why the figures are different...
Are the players not contracted to the club? Hard to imagine them being paid directly by someone else, and you've never heard of the scheme until Drummerboy got his wires crossed on player sponsorship that every club does - squad pictures, with the sponsor underneath.


I understand PAYE and PRSI but what I dont understand is that how these two figure mean anything on there own. I dont think they do which is what I would like explained. If anyone out there can tell me how these figures prove that shels avoid paying TAX then let them speak up!!
They may not prove anything, but you have to accept that they raise serious questions. If you can't see that there is something not right about the top paying, full time professional club in the country has paid less than part time clubs in PAYE and PRSI, then you really are too blinkered to debate with.

[Slash/ED]

hahahahaha :D


Are the players not contracted to the club? Hard to imagine them being paid directly by someone else, and you've never heard of the scheme until Drummerboy got his wires crossed on player sponsorship that every club does - squad pictures, with the sponsor underneath.


They may not prove anything, but you have to accept that they raise serious questions. If you can't see that there is something not right about the top paying, full time professional club in the country has paid less than part time clubs in PAYE and PRSI, then you really are too blinkered to debate with.

And you think a few sad, obsessed, bitter Bohs fans have found something that everyone at the tax department has missed because of two numbers they've dragged from somewhere that on their own don't mean anything?

[ColinR]

And you think a few sad, obsessed, bitter Bohs fans have found something that everyone at the tax department has missed because of two numbers they've dragged from somewhere that on their own don't mean anything?

tax department has not necessarily missed them. as an accountant, believe me the revenue are presently conducting revenue audits which are based on figures as early as 2000 with powers to go back earlier.

it would be still possible for shels (or any other club for that matter) to get a revenue audit based on their paye receipts. if the figures quoted are correct, (i haven't seen that accounts) they do seem quite suspicious, however without examing the accounts and the club's p35 retuwn it is still just pure speculation.

[wws]

theres a few issues here to my laymans eyes


1) there are too many variables to extrapulate any conclusions from those figures alone

2) In any case shels may have hit upon a tax efficient way of paying the least amount of tax yet definitely still paying out the highest amounts on players wages( i think EVERYONE agrees on this much that certainly they have the best paid players in ireland, possibly EVER in this country) - can this info of HOW they do this be shared around to the unenlightened? or more likely can it be figured out by experts in the finance field and made public so we can all offer riduculous money to players without any visible fan base or means of meeting these overheads?

3)ive forgotten wot three was...

[dougdub]

Well maybe the taxman hasn't bothered looking into the matter but as a member of Bohemian FC I want to know why we have paid over twice what Shelbourne payed in tax.

This matter wont rest and as I speak a friend of mine from the Revenue on the Navan Road (he doesn't like football so he has no loyalty to ethier club) is casting his evil eye over it.

Time will tell on this one !

[Macy]

And you think a few sad, obsessed, bitter Bohs fans have found something that everyone at the tax department has missed because of two numbers they've dragged from somewhere that on their own don't mean anything?
Firstly I've never said that Shels are necessarily doing anything wrong, it just raises question. I did mention way back in this thread that one possible explanation is that they're missing years. I'm only basing it on the figures that Bohs fans got, and I don't know if there's anyway of finding out whether Shels have made all their returns for the period mention (which in itself wouldn't be a good thing).

Secondly, revenue would base the figures on the P35 - they'll only dig deeper if there's a suspicion of wrong doing.

Thirdly, ultimately the staff in revenue are all Civil Servants, we all know how much work they do ;)

Finally I want to repeat that I don't necessarily think Shels are guilty of anything, but even to a die hard shels fan like yourself it must raise eyebrows? :confused: Like wws says, Oily could've found a brilliant loophole in the tax laws - it could be as simple as that.

[Snake]

If shels are not paying their tax and bohs are, shels are cheating because money that should have gone to the tax man finds it's way into Glen Crowes arse pocket in a brown paper bag instead - that is cheating on the double, cheating the tax man and society and cheatin gthe other clubs in the EL. There is no chance that anything else is actually happening, common sense will tell you that no amount of unknown variables can explain why shels paid less tax in a 4 year period by about 450,000 euro than Bohs.

St. Pat's paid more in tax than shels did in the same period - unknown variable extrapolation my arse. Ollie is a cheat, shelbourne are cheats and hopefully you will be caught and screwed pink by the revenue.

[dynamo kerry]

does anyone really think ollie byrne is stupid?

a pain in the arse, obnoxiousm a gob****e? yes, yes and very much yes.

this would be a very basic error to make. I'm willing to bet right now that nothing will come of it.

[exile]

does anyone really think ollie byrne is stupid?

a pain in the arse, obnoxiousm a gob****e? yes, yes and very much yes.

this would be a very basic error to make. I'm willing to bet right now that nothing will come of it.

he was stupid enough to get locked up but other that i think your right, all though you never know what goes on with el clubs and money.
can anyone here honestly tell me the state of their clubs finances :rolleyes:

[higgins]

this is great !!

To see so many fans getting their hopes up because a bohs fan posted two meaningless figures on the web....

Nobody knows in what context these figures are from????

snake you must be a qualified chartered accountant and have worked in the tax department for small businesses YES??...
didnt think so,,,

Your all great lads you have unearthed the scandal of the year
keep up the good work
Do you think they will make this into a film?

We could call it something like 'Jumping to conclusions'

Columbo would be very proud of you :D

[sonofstan]

Higgins, some of it is bitterness of course and annoyance that you've just won - deservedly -you second championship while we've floundered like a overweight ginger guppy (sorry, the bitterness again) all season, and that you've just taken two of our best players and Colin Hawkins when we were prepared to match your offer - which in itself makes us think there must be something more to a shels pay packet than the bit the revenue see.

But, at the very least, we think that as a condition of playing in the premier league, financial transparency should be insisted upon as it is in other leagues, and as wws put it above, the fact that you have a bigger and better paid squad than either us or pats and paid half the amount of tax that we did needs to be answered. Otherwise, you're cheating; and in a way that gives you a much bigger advantage than merely playing an unregistered player, since effectively you're getting half price footballers.

[Snake]

Actually, as of next monday week, I will be a revenue Commissioner examining shels "pension scheme". Higgins you are a tosser.

[exile]

this is great !!

To see so many fans getting their hopes up because a bohs fan posted two meaningless figures on the web....

Nobody knows in what context these figures are from????

snake you must be a qualified chartered accountant and have worked in the tax department for small businesses YES??...
didnt think so,,,

Your all great lads you have unearthed the scandal of the year
keep up the good work
Do you think they will make this into a film?

We could call it something like 'Jumping to conclusions'

Columbo would be very proud of you :D

a come now higgins with shels new media name the "bleedin galacticos" because of your team of superstars. You must be able to take the abuse and rumours of everyone else in the league, people are just jealous of your get up and get them el presdento byrne and every kid in dubland going around with crowe on the back of their galacticos jerseys and your huge fan ban base just boggles the minds of rest of eircom league we are all just jealous take no notice of us .
a.b.s(anyone but shels) sign on here

[Slash/ED]

the bleedin galacticos

That's the only decent and worthwhile thing to come out of this thread, I like that :D

[Snake]

this is great !!

Your all great lads you have unearthed the scandal of the year
keep up the good work
Do you think they will make this into a film?

We could call it something like 'Jumping to conclusions'

Columbo would be very proud of you :D

I am sure you loved Ollies input into Marneygate then........