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Pablo
26/11/2004, 6:50 PM
I think Pats were the best visiting fans to the Cross this year. simply because they brought more than 50. very strange that away support was so low this year.


Who was the best to visit your grounds?

De Town
26/11/2004, 6:56 PM
Shels - Wasnt at the first home match but second one (when we won 4-1) they had a great atmosphere but a few scumbags let them down. :(
Cork - Didnt bring many, but 1 of the games was midweek.
Bohs - Always bring a good crowd but there is a bad element in them.
Drogs - Good support apart from Monday night. Dont think there was 1 there :confused:
Waterford - Terrible. 3 or 4 at most :eek:
Derry - Brilliant. There is always very few of them but they make some noise :)
Pats - Probably the best. Brought 150ish down twice and dont think they caused any trouble with a good atmosphere.
Rovers - The less said the better.
Dublin City - Crap.

Poor Student
26/11/2004, 6:58 PM
I didn't make it to much games this year so I missed Bray and Harps. All the away support were lame at the games I was at. I guess I'd give it to the 5 or so Limerick fans who turned up to a horrible rain soaked game a month ago for their sheer dedication.

Pablo
26/11/2004, 7:01 PM
I didn't make it to much games this year so I missed Bray and Harps. All the away support were lame at the games I was at. I guess I'd give it to the 5 or so Limerick fans who turned up to a horrible rain soaked game a month ago for their sheer dedication.

Belfield is is bit bleak though be honest! i suppose you'll have a greater away support to worry about in the premier.

i'm looking forward to visiting the magnificent AIB stand next season!

Poor Student
26/11/2004, 7:05 PM
Belfield is is bit bleak though be honest! i suppose you'll have a greater away support to worry about in the premier.

i'm looking forward to visiting the magnificent AIB stand next season!

We have being outnumbered by other Dublin clubs to look forward too. :D Will we be able to say the same about the best supported club in Ireland?;)

Pablo
26/11/2004, 7:07 PM
We have being outnumbered by other Dublin clubs to look forward too. :D Will we be able to say the same about the best supported club in Ireland?;)

we've had great away support this year. 2-300 at most games in dublin and drogheda and over 1000 in tolka and waterford recently


lets not forget the 500+ we brought to France!

you'll hear us alright!

Poor Student
26/11/2004, 7:11 PM
we've had great away support this year. 2-300 at most games in dublin and drogheda and over 1000 in tolka and waterford recently


lets not forget the 500+ we brought to France!

you'll hear us alright!

I'll be looking forward to our games with ye, we have a bit of heat between us with that U-21 game and of course we put you out of the FAI Cup too. ;)

Pablo
26/11/2004, 7:13 PM
I'll be looking forward to our games with ye, we have a bit of heat between us with that U-21 game and of course we put you out of the FAI Cup too. ;)

UCD have been a pain in the arse for years! we are going great and then loose to UCD! our bogey team for sure

Bald Student
26/11/2004, 7:27 PM
I guess I'd give it to the 5 or so Limerick fans who turned up

I'm not questioning the Limerick fans' dedication, but Drogheda brought about 1,500 so I'll give it to them.

Poor Student
26/11/2004, 7:30 PM
I'm not questioning the Limerick fans' dedication, but Drogheda brought about 1,500 so I'll give it to them.

Like I said I got to very few games and none of the big ones so I'm not going to make things up. Btw, how many did Cork bring for the 3rd round? I thought I saw a comment somewhere here to the effect that it wasn't much.

Maz
26/11/2004, 7:42 PM
Derry City fans.............they are amazin!
Cork are good also good noise colour (egos :p )

Stevo Da Gull
26/11/2004, 7:45 PM
Not many teams brought fans in Div 1. I'd give it to Harps-consistantly fantastic support, they brought so much people and colour with them.

Dundalk brought a good few but they seemed a bit troublesome.
UCD also brought a few and made a bit of noise but I'd have to give it to Harps.


I have to say that we made a good bit of noise wherever we went but there was'nt always much of us. We will be well outnumbered next year.

Dr.Nightdub
26/11/2004, 8:02 PM
Shels brought a load for the last match of the season against us but you'd expect that. Anyway, they lose brownie points for that godawful "Woah-oh-oh" rain dance chant of theirs.

Derry generally come out on top in the decibels-per-capita stakes. Equally, Bohs come out at the bottom, they always come in droves but can't bring themselves to break their vow of silence except for when they score.

However, Rovers are consistently the noisiest away fans in Richmond in terms of general atmosphere and surreal 10-minute renditions of songs that have absolutely nothing to do with football (i.e. Build Me Up Buttercup, Love Is In The Air, etc). At one point I texted a Rovers mate of mine to see if they did requests but they weren't having any of it.

Bosco
26/11/2004, 8:44 PM
Shels-Alot of kids but still a great athmospere,they all join in,looked good as well as sounded good.Never stoped singing even when losing 4-1
Cork-Not a whole lot of them but always made themselves heard and seen.Was impressed when 20 or so of them came up on a tuesday night and stood together for the whole match singing(even the auld ones)
Bohs-as Dr.Nightdub said,they bring numbers but are rarely very loud,
Drogheda-Good in the semi-final(obviously) but was particularly dissapointed when they brought a grand total of 3 to the LAST match of the season
Waterford-Generally crap
Derry-Class act and are always appreciated in the flansiro.Drumming is something else and they never cause trouble
Pats-Wasnt at either of the pats games at home but are usually good.Funny how our games against pats are usualy good,we played them 6 times last year and i was at all of them,yet this year i only made it to one and i was a 0-0 draw.
Rovers-Fairly good,one of the better sets of fans for making an athmosphere,always bring good numbers but unfortunately alot of them have usually been ejected from the ground by half time.
Dublin City-They've one big mad fella with a huge drum.But thats all tey have so crap is the verdict

1 9 2 8
26/11/2004, 8:51 PM
Harps alway bring 3-400 to The Showgrounds

Enda M
26/11/2004, 9:36 PM
without a shadow of a doubt it is derry city.everytime they come to longford they make so much noise and you can always hear their "red and white army" chant over the telly and listen to this for dedication.i was staying witjh a friend inb drumcondra and decided to go to the derry dublin city game on a thursday night and they brought easily 50 fans with them on a thursday to watch dublin city. :ball:

SÓC
26/11/2004, 10:30 PM
What ever about the best the biggest let downs for me were Rovers who usually bring a bigger crowd and Waterford who had very poor numbers for their nearest game.

CollegeTillIDie
26/11/2004, 10:33 PM
What ever about the best the biggest let downs for me were Rovers who usually bring a bigger crowd and Waterford who had very poor numbers for their nearest game.

Nobody in Waterford works normal hours bar teachers and civil servants. They are all on bloody shifts. Maybe the Blues regulars were on nights those weeks and could not make it to the Cross?

CollegeTillIDie
26/11/2004, 10:35 PM
Like I said I got to very few games and none of the big ones so I'm not going to make things up. Btw, how many did Cork bring for the 3rd round? I thought I saw a comment somewhere here to the effect that it wasn't much.
Very disappointing crowd for a Cup game. To be fair it was on a Wednesday.
To give you an impression of it, they brought more to the Under 21 Cup Final But that was played on a Sunday.


Honourable mention must go to Bray for bringing the biggest League travelling support to Belfield... ah Derby games you cannot beat them :cool:

harpskid
27/11/2004, 12:17 AM
Wait til the Harps get at yeez next season, with our brilliant travelling army!!

Look out for our wonderful flag display - coming soon to an eL ground near you ;)

sonofstan
27/11/2004, 7:23 AM
Derry, no question; last time in Dalyer less than 20 of them could be comfortably heard at the other end of the Jodi over us having one of our catatonic moments. As for us being silent elsewhere, except for when we score, I would protest; you don't hear the bitter self - criticism

dortie
27/11/2004, 8:21 AM
Best away support to Derry has to be.....In order of 'numbers and noise'....

Shamrock Rovers....

St Pats.....

Cork City....

MrJoeSoap
27/11/2004, 11:59 AM
we've had great away support this year. 2-300 at most games in dublin and drogheda and over 1000 in tolka and waterford recently

Cork had great away support but it was nowhere near 1000 against shels. Closer to 500 i'd say.

Gary
27/11/2004, 12:10 PM
I cant wait to hear what so of the self appointed spokespeople for their clubs have to say on this :rolleyes:

Not been away much this season, but City have had 100+ to all weekend games, including the 800+ at Shels and 350ish at both Drogs games.

Waterford - very poor. A cup quarter final replay at the Cross, they brought about 60, that said, they brought little more to the cup final.

Best away Ive seen at the Cross this season was Shels :eek:.

Beavis
27/11/2004, 12:16 PM
we've had great away support this year. 2-300 at most games in dublin and drogheda and over 1000 in tolka and waterford recently


Was looking forward to seeing the Cork travelling support at Dalymount this year and definitely didn't let down.Sang from start to finish,while all you got from the home support was criticism and groans.Bohs are definitely the countries worst fans.


Shels brought a load for the last match of the season against us but you'd expect that. Anyway, they lose brownie points for that godawful "Woah-oh-oh" rain dance chant of theirs.
No way! I love that song.Gives a continental feel to the game and a refreshing deviation from the standard chants.

Dillo
27/11/2004, 12:24 PM
Think yer forgetting LTFC in all this. :cool:

We brought almost 10,000 to the 2003 FAI Cup Final. About 6,000 travelled for this year's decider. Over 600 went to Drogheda on a Monday night for that memorable Cup Semi!

The Flansiro was almost full to capacity for this year's League Cup Final showdown while 3,500 travelled to Inchicore on a Monday night for the same final last year.

We also travelled in big numbers to Liechtenstein and would done likewise to Bulgaria the previous year had it not been for that airport cockup! :p

Call Town supporters Bandwagon supporters if ye like but when push comes to shove we're up their with the best of them. For a county with >30,000 (including the vast numbers of foreign immigrants who don't take an interest in LTFC) we make our presence felt wherever we go.
As the chant goes....."We all follow the Longford, over land and sea....... and bog!" Not too many clubs can boast such a vocal and faithful Section O! ;)

Passive
27/11/2004, 12:28 PM
Rovers - The less said the better.


These pictures are from Rovers in Longford - I doubt any other fans created anything close to this:

http://www.srfcultras.net/season2004/longfordcup/longfordcup.html

I'm not being dragged back into a debate about your security men.

Love us or hate us (and I know most hate us!), at least give us the recognition we deserve.

From our point of view:
Shels - not many of them but they create great noise now (even if it is just one chant). A far better improvement on a few seasons ago.
Bohs - Dalymount is a morgue. If gypos stopped their bitter in-fighting they might even get a chant together. They were embarrassing in Tolka a few weeks ago.
Pats - sorry Doc, but it's gone to ****e. Not one chant from Pats last time we played.
Dublin City - I could hear the voices in Ronan Seery's head above their fans
Waterford - RSC is another morgue. Ultimate culchie fans - not one chant but the minute they score they jump up giving us the fingers. Waste of space.
Cork - see above, although the Shed lads do get a bit of atmosphere going
Derry - always fantastic. Any Rovers fan will say they're the best away fans
Longford - jokers. The "Section O" lads - all three of them - are an embarrassment to humanity.
Drogheda - pretty poor.

All in all, it's only Rovers, Shels and Derry making any effort these days. The standard off the pitch has fallen as much as it has on the pitch.

Dillo
27/11/2004, 12:35 PM
Have ya any pictures from Inchicore (St. Pat's ground ;) ) when we dumped ye out of the cup this year??! Barret's extra time winner... :confused:

Ye bring the same thug element no matter where ye go. Ye can't take a beaten and then ye start troublemaking.

Yer are a disgrace to the League. Go and try and find a field somewhere and quit relying on other clubs to put ye up. Shame Scumrock Rovers and Roddy weren't relegated to the First Division. At least there ye'd have no fans to fight with only yerselves! Ye bring nothing to the League only bad luck.

joeraki
27/11/2004, 12:49 PM
Dont get to Oriel much anymore due to weekday working hours in dublin. So from my experience of watching a few dublin team this season I'd say

Shels: Quite good, wouldn't have the biggest of numbers but give it a good lash all the same. Whats with that woooo wooo song ?

Bohs: Dire really, very good away support but its like going to a Dublin City game except theres people there.

Pats: Haven't seen them this season so can't comment

DC: No comment !!

Rovers: Weirdos, there team is terrible yet turn up in numbers and act looney. Bit like a cult really. Songs like buttercup and silent night at Ireland games confirm that ! God help the rest of ye if they ever look like winning something

trevy
27/11/2004, 1:05 PM
Cork City always bring big numbers to the RSC but doubt if there was 1000 there :rolleyes: ..Shamrock Rovers brought a decent crowd for the Sunday game on Halloween day.Other than that away support was pretty small at the RSC this year for the games I was at.Getting to away games is a difficulty on Friday nights though and only the truly dedicated will travel.Also work commitments prevent fans myself included from getting to as many games as you'd like.

kilkennycat2004
27/11/2004, 1:49 PM
Cork City were far & away the best supporters in both numbers & volume at the RSC in 2004. And yes there was 900 or so from Cork at that game.
On a separate issue the RSC for atmosphere is a desperate venue. There is no affinity as such between team & players due to the distance they are away from each other each fortnight. Priority number 1 for Waterford is to get out of the RSC asap.

CollegeTillIDie
27/11/2004, 4:04 PM
No way! I love that song.Gives a continental feel to the game and a refreshing deviation from the standard chants.


That chant is fine. It slags no other team or other fans and yet encourages their team. By the way did anyone notice that in the CL Qualifying round away to Depor the local fans started to join in on that one?

CollegeTillIDie
27/11/2004, 4:06 PM
Think yer forgetting LTFC in all this. :cool:

We brought almost 10,000 to the 2003 FAI Cup Final. About 6,000 travelled for this year's decider. ;)

Ye lost 40% support in 12 months and ye were NOT RELEGATED, but won more trophies? I'd be very worried Dillo if I were a LTFC official

Longfordian
27/11/2004, 4:14 PM
Compromise rules hit the attendance badly this year, not a case of losing support. just less bandwagoners..all the schools in Longford got free tickets to the Compromise rule meaning alot of kids went to Croke Park instead of Lansdowne and so with no kids going their parents didnt go either..and it was only about 7,000 last year too.

CollegeTillIDie
27/11/2004, 4:21 PM
Compromise rules hit the attendance badly this year, not a case of losing support. just less bandwagoners..all the schools in Longford got free tickets to the Compromise rule meaning alot of kids went to Croke Park instead of Lansdowne and so with no kids going their parents didnt go either..and it was only about 7,000 last year too.

You can see a Compromise Rules international Every 2 years.
Longford have been in 3 FAI Cup finals since 1928.
Such is the nature of Cup football it could be 20 years before you get back to a final. Just as easily as you making it Three-in-a-row
DO I need to say any more than that?

Longfordian
27/11/2004, 4:40 PM
Tell that to Waterford who only brought 3,000 to their first cup final in over 20 years, that from a population over double ours..

Dr.Nightdub
27/11/2004, 5:38 PM
Pats - sorry Doc, but it's gone to ****e.

No argument from me on that one Passive. I'm just amazed so many other clubs rate us, we've been dreadful this year, by our own standards anyway.

Slash/ED
27/11/2004, 5:59 PM
That chant is fine. It slags no other team or other fans and yet encourages their team. By the way did anyone notice that in the CL Qualifying round away to Depor the local fans started to join in on that one?

For 30 minutes after the game the locals stayed in the ground and the entire stadium was singing that song, apparently. I like it, for some reason you can hear it from very far away, more so than any other chants, as I've noticed coming late to games and at least it's not a rehash of old chants as most chants are.

In no real order (In pact I copied and pasted the order from a previous post :D )

Rovers - Obviously the numbers are down on their more successful seasons but they still get great numbers considering, and are always noisey.
Bohs - Good numbers, appaling noise levels. They're even worse at home but this is about away fans.
Pats - The last time we played Pats in Tolka it was a ****e crowd from both sides, normally they're very noisey though to be fair.
Dublin City - When we first played them they seemed to have a load of banners together which looked well enough then they seemed to disappear. Obviously they've smaller numbers than the rest but even the ones they do have don't seem to chant.
Waterford - Heard nothing from them apart from after they scored for a few minutes.
Cork - Best away support in the league numbers wise though not always the noisest. That day in Tolka was superb though and it was around the 1,000 mark easily, and they made the noise to back it up.
Derry - They bring enough drums with them :eek: but they use them well, constantly chanting and the drums only add to it. Definitely one of the best if not the best, espically considering their current position.
Longford - Rarely hear much from them.
Drogheda - When they beat is in Tolka, they were excellent. Really got behind their team and made plenty of noise, the best I've heard from them. Also managed to wind Jason Byrne up and helped in getting him sent off, which is fair enough he should be able to take it, a big improvement from them I thought.

patsh
27/11/2004, 6:52 PM
Cork City always bring big numbers to the RSC but doubt if there was 1000 there :rolleyes:
At the last WUFC/City game there were about 1,500 WUFC fans at their home game and City brought at least 1,000 if not more.......
Not getting at the few that make the effort, but Waterford are the worst fans in the country. There are about 20 making any noise at their home games, and their travelling support is virtually non-existent. They made the effort for the first game at the Cross, but the last game in Cork was a disgrace.

Getting to away games is a difficulty on Friday nights though and only the truly dedicated will travel.Also work commitments prevent fans myself included from getting to as many games as you'd like. Really?
How come City can get between 100 and 200, (and up to a thousand for one game) to travel every second week, and sometimes a few weeks in a row? Derry can do it, Longford and Drogs can always muster a few, why can't Waterford?

MrJoeSoap
28/11/2004, 12:05 AM
Tell that to Waterford who only brought 3,000 to their first cup final in over 20 years, that from a population over double ours..

I'm not having a go, but where did you get those figures about the cup final attendance?

Longfordian
28/11/2004, 5:11 AM
Our side, I was selling the tickets..Waterford side the FAI I think it was Andy Needham or Paul Brady possibly..the attendance was 9,700 or so, as I say I sold our tickets which amounted to about 5, 500-6,000 on the day, Waterford at max 3,500, again according to the FAI

ColinR
28/11/2004, 10:44 AM
away fans to united park this season:

shels: not bad considering the abuse they always get. prob about 200 at both games, should be more considering their great season.

cork: excellent. more at the earlier game rather than the 2nd last game of the season which was surprising, both great support on both occasions.

bohs: good for first game and poor second time around, but to be expected considering how their season went

waterford: poor, just a handful

longford: poor for the league, but brought a good crowd for a monday night semi final replay, that made for an excellent atmosphere

derry : ok. normally derry bring much more. first game was a tuesday night clashing with arsenal chelsea champions league, so not sure if that affected it, second game numbers where there but we won 4-0 so they weren't singing too much.

pats: disappointing. pats normally bring much much more. even the cup game, there was less than for most league visits to united park. normally i would consider pats the best away fans to united park.

rovers: terrible this year. prob due to the sason they had, but their numbers where way down - brought much less than the crowd shels brought :eek:

dub city : didn't notice any away fans tbh

craptown: not bad, but it was a cup derby

ucd: more than dub city ;)

as for our own away following. well its pretty poor outside of dublin or cup trips - where we seem to bring large numbers.

harry crumb
28/11/2004, 11:23 AM
The away support at turners cross this year was as bad as it ever has been. Even Waterford barely managed to bring 150 down. Usually Rovers are pretty good but this season they didnt seem to be the same numbers. Also the fact that they were attacked by City fans with stones 1st time round probably made their mind up second time around.

Cork's support away support this year was pretty good. Ian has made it a lot easier with the busses and the fact that were on a good run was the reason we got 1000 at Tolka.

Waterford was a good effort too.

De Town
28/11/2004, 11:27 AM
Waterford was a good effort too.

Naturally enough considering it was a Munster derby. :rolleyes:

harry crumb
28/11/2004, 2:27 PM
Well it was a "Munster Derby" in Turners Cross too and Waterford fans didn't seem too bothered to come to Cork.

NY Hoop
29/11/2004, 11:44 AM
Rovers: Weirdos, there team is terrible yet turn up in numbers and act looney. Bit like a cult really. Songs like buttercup and silent night at Ireland games confirm that ! God help the rest of ye if they ever look like winning something[/QUOTE]

LOL :D Exactly any other club at this stage would have no support.

A few points though. Any team that is winning ie. cork and shels will have numbers travelling. The true test is the amount traveling CONSISTENTLY when the team is doing bad and for that it's only us and Derry.

Also if the away games (and by that I mean down the country) were played on a saturday night or a sunday afternoon numbers travelling would be more like the old days. This travelling to cork on a friday and derry on a thursday is a disgrace. And harry crumb a few stones dont deter us.........well used to it down there over the years.

Anyway as someone who went to all 36 league games here's my list in order of their final placings:

Shels: Obviously doing well and good to see flares, flags, and a new song but overall shocking really when you think they have everything. Didnt hear much when we walloped them 3-0 though........

Cork: Back to my point they would have more if there was none of this friday night crap. But still we did play them on a saturday before their their All Ireland and I thought they would have at least a thousand but no :confused:

b**z: Considering we played them 3 times at dalymoan and once a tolka will just tell you that any noise comes when they score. Says it all really.

Drogheda: Good support but they had a good season. Fair play but will need to keep this up. A satellite town so should be actively pursuing more support.

Waterford: Great club but was very disappointed with their support especially in the Cup Final (was hoping they would win). Though they have all the tifo stuff..........

Longford: So many deluded fans it's unreal. Look at this board with "fans" like dillo :( Again a successful season for them (despite nicking our Cup displays) but for the league games not good.

Derry: Very noisy and fair play for supporting us at the peaceful protest. Good knowledgeable bunch. Given the distance involved put other clubs to shame.

Pats: Best flag in the league but what happened with the noise? Used to be pretty good but still havent got over running onto their own pitch at the final whistle!

CHF: Do me a favour. Better atmosphere in a phone box. More flags than fans. Utter waste of breath.

Overall on consistency we ALWAYS travel and support our team.


KOH

Colm
29/11/2004, 12:07 PM
I don't think anyone will argue about it because there is no doubt that we have by far the best away support in both numbers and noise. The Rebel Army have really set the standard over the past few years, while our away support has rocketed others seem to have faded away.

I'll judge the others on what they brought to the Cross this year.....
Bohs: Brought a small crowd both times and made absolutely no noise or colour. A far cry from the huge fans display and decent crowd they brought to the Cross 3 years ago.

Shels: Brought a decent enough crowd the first time but still should have brought more considering it was a bank holiday.

Longford: They brought nobody on either occasion and combine that fact with my trips to flancare and I have to ask do they have any fans at all!!!!

Derry: Didn't bring near as many on either occasion as we brought to the Brandywell but despite that they still brought more than Longford and Dublin City.

Pats: Didn't bring much of a crowd but made a bit of noise.

Rovers: Brought about 100 the first time and fcuk all the second time. Always make an effort noise wise though.

Waterford: Brought fcuk all on both occasions and considering it's only an hours drive they're an abolute joke and haven't a clue about supporting a football team. Worst fans in the league after Dublin City and UCD.

Drogheda: Only a handful both times. Their fans are sililar to Waterford imo.

Dublin City: What fans?


In conclusion, apart from Cork City nobody can boast about their away support. I think Rovers (fair play considering their position), Shels and maybe Pats make an effort in fairness but there's still room for major improvement.
If Cork City fans can travel the length of the country every second Friday night surely other fans can do it a couple of times a season.

Macy
29/11/2004, 12:12 PM
I don't think anyone will argue about it because there is no doubt that we have by far the best away support in both numbers and noise. The Rebel Army have really set the standard over the past few years, while our away support has rocketed others seem to have faded away.
How can you judge yourself as an away support? How do you know what other teams have done at various grounds. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, just don't think you can judge yourselves that's all....

For the record, mine would be Pats (this season excepted) and Rovers in terms of noise. Derry wouldn't be far off, but I remember a few Saturday night games since our promotion that they've brought fook all, and have made sod all noise either.

Colm
29/11/2004, 12:16 PM
How can you judge yourself as an away support? How do you know what other teams have done at various grounds. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, just don't think you can judge yourselves that's all....

I can compare what we brought to Dublin with what Dublin teams brought to Cork as it's the same distance to travel. It's actually a lot harder for us because we have to travel on a regular basis but we still manage more on every occasion.
You can't judge what fans bring to Dublin derbys as they are not really away games when you only have to travel 20 minutes accross twon.

OneRedArmy
29/11/2004, 12:26 PM
Derry: Didn't bring near as many on either occasion as we brought to the Brandywell but despite that they still brought more than Longford and Dublin City.

Your first away trip to Derry this season, Saturday 17 April, I would have said, charitably, you brought about as many (30 max) as we did on our first trip down on Friday night 11th June.

I wasn't at either of the end of season games home or away as I couldn't get the time off work, so I can't comment on those.