Everton and Liverpool discussion [Archive]

Dillo

26/11/2004, 5:22 PM

There's no doubting Liverpool's dominance on Merseyside for the most part within the last decade. :o

But what I'd like to ask is, are David Moyes' Blue Army finally getting the upper hand on their bitter rivals across Stanley Park? Will Rafael Benitez remain Rafael 'BeneathUs' or can the Spaniard turn the clubs fortunes around?? :eek: Who will finish higher come next May? :confused:

What do others think?? Would it be possible to set up a poll on this issue Adam? Thanks.

I firmly believe the tide is turning and it is a remarkable achievement by the toffees given the financial budgets of both clubs.
Moyes has performed miracles while surviving on a shoe string. Bringing in whole-hearted and dedicated individuals like Kilbane, Bent and Cahill and offloading ar$eholes the likes of Rooney and Radzinski has seen a swift change for the better down Goodison way!
Benitez on the other hand with enough money at his disposal has brought in a group of non-proven spaniards to replace Houllier's diabolical french contingent but unlike Moyes has had little joy so far in Scouseland!

Voice yer opinions folks!

$Leon$

26/11/2004, 5:32 PM

Gary

26/11/2004, 6:38 PM

drinkfeckarse

26/11/2004, 6:56 PM

the only silver lining being the relatively good form of Xavi Alonso.

Luis Garcia has been a good signing too Conor, I know the fans are delighted with him and when I've seen him myself he's shown a bit of flair and imagination.

In all honesty I don't think the tide is anywhere near turning Dillo, it's just a simple case of Liverpool underachieving and Everton overachieving IMO

4tothefloor

26/11/2004, 8:21 PM

In the meantime, Liverpool are paying dearly for the folly of selling their best player, bringing in yet another defensive manager, hinging everything around a midfielder who is sporadically good (good in the England 5-Germany 1 game, missing for a few years, good last season etc. etc.), and hoping a striker who never played in England would ignite everything - Cisse being this year's Harry Kewell, or El Hadji Diouf, or Paul Stewart, or John Durnin. So far it has failed, the only silver lining being the relatively good form of Xavi Alonso.

First of all, lets get realistic here. Everton have had no injury problems so far this season, Liverpool have been decimated. You take the key players, equivelant to what Liverpool have out injured, out of any Premiership side and they would all struggle, even Chelsea. You are only as good as your strikers you know, and at the moment, Liverpool have none!

The core of Liverpool's team has been missing for the bulk of this season. Gerrard is just back and rushed back at that. The two main strikers, Cisse and Baros, who is having a pretty good season, are both out injured. Nunez hasn't even played yet, injured. Garcia, Josemi, and Traore are now injured as well. This is on top of Kirklands early season absence, and Smicer's pre-season injury. I think Alonso and Gerrard have played about 3 games together. Just as one comes back, another first teamer, or two, is out. There is no flow or consistency because of this. Liverpool have yet to field their best 11 this season.

Benitez cannot be blamed for the lack of cover in the squad, as he was left a club in dissaray by Houllier. He has said himself he is not interested in signing stop-gaps, instead he intends only to sign players capable of going straight into the first team. I'll judge Benitez in May, there will be signings next month. As for Moyes, he is doing a fantastic job, but punching above his weight. Wait for the injuries and watch the toffees melt. Take Bent and Gravesen out, and they're screwed......although I do think that Everton will win the upcoming merseyside derby as Liverpool simply don't have the players available at the moment.

Just a few points:
Liverpool didn't sell their best player. Owen sold himself, he wanted to go.

Benitez isn't a defensive coach.

They haven't been basing their play around Gerrard this season for the simple reason that he's been injured for most of it. What Liverpool are you watching?!

Cisse played 14 games. How can you label a player a flop after 14 games?! I can remember a certain Thierry Henry being less than impressive in his first 6 months at Arsenal. In fact, he was completely useless. I'll reserve judgement on Cisse when he has settled on merseyside and into Benitez's style of play, like any knowledgable football fan would.

Dillo

27/11/2004, 8:38 AM

What exactly do you want the poll to be, and I will add it.[/QUOTE]

Put up a poll as to which Merseyside team will finish highest this season Gary.

As for $Leon$, he is just a sh!t stirer. I've seen people banned on this forum for a lot less. :) Hint hint...

Too many sad scousers replying for my liking :p ! Unlike us blues, yer all prepared to settle for second best. Houllier has had ye brainwashed for long enough. Get with the times, Liverpool are a shambles. Think of the great Pool teams of the past. The club is in disarrray. Let's face it, Rafa has one hell of a job on his hands!

TheJamaicanP.M.

27/11/2004, 12:57 PM

sorry thought this was foot.ie not foot.co.uk
if i wanted to read cr@p about the dominance or lack of it from one english club or another i'd go else where and read it.
this country is once again becoming more and more over run with english.
this time the plantation is a slow one.
move the odd few over one by one and spread them throughout the country.
(this isn't the same as irish goin to engerland to find work)
the reason so many irish people went to engerland to find work was due to the fact that the brits came over here and raped our country.
the new plantation takes the form of a slow brain wash.
polute irish kids minds with uk based tv stations and music.
why is it that u can get the bbc in ireland but can't get rte in england?
answer: british government plan to retake control of our country.

$Leon$, this is a general football thread. If you dont want to talk about football outside Ireland stay on the domestic EL sections. However, I would agree with you that Premiership football is a new form of colonialism.

Anyhow, I agree with Dillo that the tide has turned on Merseyside. However, I think this has more to do with Liverpool's decline than Everton's rejuvenation as a club. I think if Everton were to lose David Moyes or a couple of players they will lose their momentum very quickly. Therefore, I think the Everton bubble could easily burst. On the other hand, Liverpool are in terminal decline. Things have got increasingly worse in the past 3 years. At least when Roy Evans was manager Liverpool were the third best team in the league. Nowadays they are well behind Arsenal, Chelsea and ManUre. Even Newcastle are probably closer to challenging for the title than Liverpool. I heard the club is planning on building a new stadium which means there will be little in the way of transfer funds available. Therefore, I think Liverpool will get worse before they get better. Today's newspapers have reports that Gerrard could be on his way to Chelsea again. As for Cisse, I never rated him. He was indicative of the sort of player that Houllier placed his faith in. This is a man who turned down the offer to sign Damien Duff relatively cheaply. The current Liverpool team is just not good enough. I honestly dont believe that any of the current team would have made any of the great teams of the 1980s. Prior to 1993, ManUre had waited 26 years since their last league title. Its not inconceivable that Liverpool may have to wait a similar length of time. Its 14 and half years and counting.

Whos to say Everton wont take over as the dominant force on Merseyside? Maybe Liverpool wouldnt be in their current predicament if they had the foresight to lure David Moyes from Preston a couple of year ago. Instead they have persisted with foreign managers who pack their team full of foreign mercenaries.

CollegeTillIDie

27/11/2004, 3:47 PM

Well normally do not contribute to threads about Brit football on here, but as it is the city of Liverpool which is more Irish than any other part of GB I thought why not.

Everton should finish ahead of Liverpool this season in the Premiership if they invest some of the Rooney transfer money wisely in the transfer window.
Liverpool currently have no strikers, if they do not acquire one soon they will struggle. This business of completely dismissing a ground share with Everton out of hand without examining the feasibility of it could back to bite them on the bum. With costs spiralling with their projected new stadium, ( you can tell they have Irish ancestry over there with this issue alone), wouldn't they better off getting Everton to make a small contribution to the building of this uberstadion and give them one end and maybe one side for corporate boxes etc.?

$Leon$

27/11/2004, 9:27 PM

I would agree with you that Premiership football is a new form of colonialism.

thats exactly what i was tryin to say.
thanx

JoeSemi

27/11/2004, 9:32 PM

Let's get a few things into perspective here. How often in the course of the Premiership years have Everton finished above Liverpool? Sorry, stupid question. To suggest that they may do so this year is a bit premature also.

Everton are currently top club on Merseyside if you're to go by the table, but the table does not take into account the factors that are contributing to this unusual scenario. Everton have, by and large, the same squad that struggled last season, with a couple of useful additions to fill the void left by Shrek. There is a continuity at Goodison which Liverpool haven't had from last season. The fact that they were considered nothing more than relegation fodder once Shrek departed has benefited Everton. The players then had something to prove and Moyes has obviously played on this public belief to instill a siege mentality within the players to perform in the manner they have. It's a measure of how good a manager Moyes is, but there is a limit to what he can do with so many average footballers and Everton's slide won't be long forthcoming.

Like 4tothefloor said, any team with equivalent injuries to Liverpool's would struggle. Everton have yet to be hit with any sort of injury crisis and if a point arrives in the season where even Gravesen alone is out of the team then they will suffer. For Conor74 to say Gerrard is "sporadically good" is a bit off the mark :confused: To say he is consistently brilliant and sporadically below par(which in his case is better than most other players' general level!) is more precise and I'm sure the majority of people will vouch for that.

I also think it is best to reserve judgement on Cisse until next season and to compare him to the players Conor74 mentioned is plainly ridiculous. John Durnin for one never played in Liverpool's first team; Harry Kewell is a wide man; Paul Stewart had already tasted English football and was a midfielder, and to compare anybody to Diouf is an insult of the highest order. The P.M said that Cisse is indicative of a player Houllier placed his faith in; but Benitez himself had wanted him for Valencia and a lack of funds to purchase him and others hastened his subsequent departure to Liverpool. To call the foreign lads at the club mercenaries is also a cheap shot P.M :) Every move in football is tied up with money and to label the Liverpool lads as mercenaries, is to label all footballers as such. Is it not a case of players bettering themselves by moving to a bigger club? I think it is in Alonso's, Josemi's and Cisse's cases (Luis Garcia is obviously an exception).

Let bluenoses like Dillo not get ahead of themselves. Everton should be given due credit for their current lofty position, but dizziness is hard to stave off when not accustomed to such altitude. ;) Its only November and things shouldn't be judged til May. A bit of strengthening in the window and Liverpool shall remain(as always) as Merseyside's top football club.

4tothefloor

27/11/2004, 11:14 PM

This business of completely dismissing a ground share with Everton out of hand without examining the feasibility of it could back to bite them on the bum. With costs spiralling with their projected new stadium, ( you can tell they have Irish ancestry over there with this issue alone), wouldn't they better off getting Everton to make a small contribution to the building of this uberstadion and give them one end and maybe one side for corporate boxes etc.?

They are 110% correct in dismissing a ground share with Everton. Tell me this - why should such a great club like Liverpool share their ground with such a mediocre club like Everton, and in the process allow Everton to benefit from the revenue of a 60,000 seater stadium, which would thus practically leave both clubs on a level footing competitively? Just as Inter and AC Milan are?

Why should a club who are still the most successful english club of all time, share with a club who are relegation fodder every second season? Why should a club whose ambitions are on a different level, share with a club who are content to survive?

If you want to compare the two clubs, Everton are a mickey mouse club in comparison to what Liverpool have achieved. They have never finished above Liverpool in the premiership. Yet there are people that think there is a legitimate case for handing Everton a 60,000 seater stadium on a plate! After Liverpool did all the planning etc. The whole point of building a new stadium is to gain a competitive advantage, or at least to be able to compete on an equal footing. This is also true of Arsenals move.

So why let Everton join the premiership elite? What have Everton done to deserve a 60,000 seater stadium? If you were a director of Liverpool FC, would you be for groundsharing with Everton? I don't think so! There will be no groundshare, because Liverpool are not stupid. Everton can **** off and build their own stadium, not that they have the money...

BTW, the investment in the stadium doesn't affect the transfer kitty. It's a seperate project completely, which will be paid for mainly by sponsers and projected income from ticket sales, and dare I say it, regular champions league football. The cost will be paid back over 25-30 years, or something like that.

4tothefloor

27/11/2004, 11:23 PM

CollegeTillIDie

27/11/2004, 11:42 PM

They are 110% correct in dismissing a ground share with Everton. Tell me this - why should such a great club like Liverpool share their ground with such a mediocre club like Everton, and in the process allow Everton to benefit from the revenue of a 60,000 seater stadium, which would thus practically leave both clubs on a level footing competitively? Just as Inter and AC Milan are?]

Ok what I am suggesting is that Everton partly fund the stadium especially as costs are spiralling out of control . Everton cannot afford to build their own stadium. They may be able to cover the cost overruns on the projected Anfield II. Besides which Everton, if you know your history, were originally at home in Anfield.

You may recall the FAI have no where to play because the Bertie Bowl costs began spiralling out of control before a sod was dug.

[QUOTE=4tothefloor] Why should a club who are still the most successful english club of all time, share with a club who are relegation fodder every second season? Why should a club whose ambitions are on a different level, share with a club who are content to survive? ]
Practicalities.... to move things closer to home Shamrock Rovers are the most successful club in Irish history and yet they are currently relying on St. Pat's to put a roof over their heads.

Back in the 1950's Liverpool were sh1t and Everton were the top dogs. These things become cyclical.

[QUOTE=4tothefloor]If you want to compare the two clubs, Everton are a mickey mouse club in comparison to what Liverpool have achieved. They have never finished above Liverpool in the premiership. Yet there are people that think there is a legitimate case for handing Everton a 60,000 seater stadium on a plate! After Liverpool did all the planning etc. The whole point of building a new stadium is to gain a competitive advantage, or at least to be able to compete on an equal footing. This is also true of Arsenals move.]

If Everton partly fund the stadium and save Liverpool FC some money it is in their best interests to let them move in. Sometimes what is in the best interests of one club can be giving the other a helping hand. Witness St Patrick's Athletic providing a home for Rovers and Shelbourne doing so for Dublin City in an EL context.

[QUOTE=4tothefloor]So why let Everton join the premiership elite? What have Everton done to deserve a 60,000 seater stadium? If you were a director of Liverpool FC, would you be for groundsharing with Everton? I don't think so! There will be no groundshare, because Liverpool are not stupid. Everton can **** off and build their own stadium, not that they have the money... ]

Everton could qualify for the Champions League this season. They have a reasonable squad of players and one of the best young managers in the game. Their days of paupery could soon be at an end. And with their potential new wealth , if I could get Everton to pay some of the overheads and possibly rent money for a few years and I was looking at the bottom line it could become a very attractive option indeed. These people in charge of football clubs are business men first. The petty disputes between fans and who has the greater history won't satisfy the club's bankers.

[BTW, the investment in the stadium doesn't affect the transfer kitty. It's a seperate project completely, which will be paid for mainly by sponsers and projected income from ticket sales, and dare I say it, regular champions league football. The cost will be paid back over 25-30 years, or something like that.
Did I mention the transfer kitty ? and by the way any funds belonging to a club is like pockets in a jacket . If it doesn't come from the outside right hand pocket it is coming from the inside one. Either way it is another bit of club money.

JoeSemi

28/11/2004, 12:28 PM

By the way, JoeSemi - terrible choice for a username, if you don't mind me saying!

I have to say, I have never seen a worse full-back than Josemi in my life, at that level. The man is completely useless. He has no pace, no turn, is a rash tackler, and very poor passer of the ball. His positional sense is laughable, and his marking from set-pieces is abysmal. He also keeps giving away stupid frees, from which Liverpool keep conceding goals. He's basically a stop gap signing who won't be around for too long. Finnan would have been the first choice right-back long ago except he is needed as a midfielder at the moment. I think he'll play full-back from now on though.

You're going to have to change that username!

"He came from Malaga, he's the Spanish Carragher, Josemi oh oh, Josemi......", the chant went at the start of the season! Not echoing round the Kop these days for obvious reasons, but to say he's the worst full back you've seen is a bit harsh. He has his limitations and has been exposed for a number of goals this season, but the lad deserves a chance like everybody else settling in to a new breed of football. Its without question that Finnan should be given an extended run at right full and this should start from today with Josemi injured. Let's reserve full judgement until he has a full season behind him.

There is a slight difference in spelling between mine and Josemi's! I'm goin to stick by the name, like the player himself once he remians giving 100% in the red shirt.

TheJamaicanP.M.

29/11/2004, 3:57 PM

I have to say, I have never seen a worse full-back than Josemi in my life

I think that is very unfair. If you were watching the rugby at the weekend you would have seen that the Argentinian full-back is worse than Josemi.

Dillo

29/11/2004, 4:29 PM

4tothefloor you'd want to examine your conscience. The lad from "Limerick" :o describing Everton as a mediocre, Mickey Mouse club. I think you're taking the Michael Mouse!
The People's Club in existence since 1878 is one of the biggest and most passionate around with a fantastic fanbase. Steeped in history and tradition, Everton Football Club last year celebrated it's centenary year- 100 years in the top flight!! The toffees are the longest such serving member- a record all Evertonians are extremely proud of. Not too many can boast such a reputation.
Content to survive you say??! We're not talking about Limerick FC here lad. Third in the league after 15 games!

JoeSemi you make a little sense but not a whole lot either. Ye lads are talking through yer rectum. You talk about average footballers at Everton! Not doing too bad of a job are they? And what's at Liverpool when you take away Gerard and Alonso?? Whatever premature dizziness the Goodison faithful may have endured I think it's fair to say (excuse the pun!) the Toffees are sticking at the top :p . Gone are the days of Everton fighting for survival.

The sun shines out of Stevie G's backside as far as the scousers are concerned...... "You're just too good to be blue" my ar$e! We don't need or want that lad. Tommy G's our engine :cool: ! As for Josemi, the lad is a joke. Just compare his ability to that of Tony Hibbert's! You talk about strenghtening in the January transfer window. Use have that luxury, we don't. That's the difference. But it'll make little difference because come next May, it'll be Red proping Blue in the table... you mark my words!

4tothefloor

30/11/2004, 8:37 PM

I take it you are as passionate about not allowing Croke park to be used by other sports for similar reasons...why should they anyway...they did all the planning...they get bigger crowds...etc. etc. etc..

Croke Park is a national matter which involves our national team and our national game. It also involves bucket-loads of taxpayers money. It's an issue that some would say is bordering on bigotry from the GAA's point of view. Liverpool and Everton are two privately owned clubs. I don't see the comparison, at all.

Would have thought that if it makes economic sense it makes economic sense and the number of trophies Liverpool may have won in past generations that many of their fans now will barely remember shouldn't muddy the waters... It's a question of finance. No point building a white elephant and the city of Liverpool hardly needs two new stadia.

From Liverpools point of view, the building of the stadium is a project that is hoped will bring the club to the same level as Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal in terms of match day income. Even outside of that, at the moment they still can't compete with Utd (a plc), Chelsea (Abramovich) or Arsenal (who have an unreal money-saving youth set-up). So why would you even think of allowing another club into the mix? No way in hell, it ain't gonna happen. It might make short term economic sense to share, but it doesn't make long-term sense, not from Liverpool's perspective anyway.

Liverpool are actually open to the idea of Everton RENTING Anfield II. But only renting, not sharing. That would basically mean the stadium would be called Anfield, have red seats all around, and would be branded as Liverpool FC's stadium. There wouldn't be a hint of blue in sight, or no Tony Cottee suites behind the stands either! Everton would pay Liverpool rent to use it......now that would be priceless, all the Evertonians having to stomach that :p Can't see it happening, can't see Everton going for that, so therefore, there will be no groundshare. If the UK government decided to build the stadium for the clubs, Liverpool might just consider it a little....just a little though, before politely telling Everton to **** off!

4tothefloor

30/11/2004, 8:59 PM

4tothefloor you'd want to examine your conscience. The lad from "Limerick" :o describing Everton as a mediocre, Mickey Mouse club. I think you're taking the Michael Mouse!
The People's Club in existence since 1878 is one of the biggest and most passionate around with a fantastic fanbase. Steeped in history and tradition, Everton Football Club last year celebrated it's centenary year- 100 years in the top flight!! The toffees are the longest such serving member- a record all Evertonians are extremely proud of. Not too many can boast such a reputation.
Content to survive you say??! We're not talking about Limerick FC here lad. Third in the league after 15 games!

Firstly, I was a Liverpool fan before I ever set foot at a Limerick match, although not by much. Secondly, what has Limerick FC got to do with a comparison of Liverpool and Everton? When you compare Evertons achievements ( :confused: :D) to Liverpools, Everton are a mickey mouse outfit, in comparison. Simple really. However, when you compare Longford town's achievements to Limericks, well there isn't much of a difference. Yer doing well now, but when I first started supporting Limerick, you were where we are now. However, things are about to change, so we'll see who'll be laughing in a few years. Ditto for Liverpool and Everton - only a delusional fool would say that 'the tide is about to change'. We're beating Arsenal off the park with a patchwork team, yet we're finished and in 'terminal decline' :D

Ye lads are talking through yer rectum.
Lol, and then you go on to say.......

The sun shines out of Stevie G's backside as far as the scousers are concerned...... "You're just too good to be blue" my ar$e! We don't need or want that lad.

One of the best midfielders in the world. Watch Benitez build a team around Gerrard and Alonso, and weep....shur what am I saying, ye have Gravesen and, erm,.............erm, ahm,........Kilbane, yeah Kilbane and Gravesen - class :rolleyes:

BTW, no prizes are handed out after 15 games.....

Dillo

01/12/2004, 10:39 AM

If you know your history............ but it's quite obvious 4tothefloor doesn't know his! Everton, whether you like it or not are of the top five clubs in England. In terms of trophies won at least, our history is laced with triumph and glory. Only Liverpool :rolleyes: , ManUre :rolleyes: and Arsenal have won more league titles while our haul of five FA Cups is among the best in the country. Everton is of England's biggest club, dare I say the original big club! As for Stevie G, there's no denying he's a class act but a move to Chelsea is the only way he can achieve his ambitions. However our Dane Tommy G is another class act as evidenced by the Mancs recent monitoring of him. He's going nowhere though. Unlike Shrek, he's blue til he dies and when he dies ;) . As for Limerick.... you're having a laugh! Use are rooted in the First Division where ye belong and there's not a hope in hell yer ever going to catch us :p . Too fond of the eggchasing down there anyway.

TheJamaicanP.M.

01/12/2004, 11:19 AM

Great points Dillo and Conor74. Maybe Everton would have set their own European sequence if it hadnt been for Liverpool fans running riot in the Heysel Stadium. As for the history of the two clubs, Everton were the original Irish club on Merseyside. Liverpool was for dare I say it, blue-noses like Robbie Fowler. It was the presence of players like Ronnie Whelan, Steve Heighway, Ray Houghton, Aldo, and Jim Beglin in the 80s that changed that trend.
On the other hand, Everton's reputation has perhaps been affected by the arrival of Walter Smith and a handful of former Rangers players in the late 90s. Thankfully, it would appear that normal service has resumed.

Macy

01/12/2004, 11:34 AM

if it hadnt been for Liverpool fans running riot in the Heysel Stadium.
It wasn't them, it was Chelsea.... :rolleyes:

drinkfeckarse

01/12/2004, 12:20 PM

However our Dane Tommy G is another class act as evidenced by the Mancs recent monitoring of him. He's going nowhere though. Unlike Shrek, he's blue til he dies

Yeah, he loves the club sooooo much that he refuses to sign a new contract :rolleyes: No doubting he's a good player, a great player though...very questionable.

Bye Bye Tommy come the end of the season. :D

And if you believe that he'd stay at Everton if i.e. Manure or similar came calling then you're deluded.

Dillo

01/12/2004, 12:38 PM

Yeah, he loves the club sooooo much that he refuses to sign a new contract :rolleyes: No doubting he's a good player, a great player though...very questionable.

Bye Bye Tommy come the end of the season. :D

And if you believe that he'd stay at Everton if i.e. Manure or similar came calling then you're deluded.

Tommy G is a highly ambitious and determined man. He stated himself earlier in the year that he wants nothing less than European football, otherwise he would have to look elsewhere. However it's looking ever likely that this will be the case at Goodison next season which means Grav is here for the long haul. So hands off him mancs! :cool:

Macy

01/12/2004, 1:34 PM

they could very clearly remember Orange Order marches in Liverpool as late as the 50s which were attended by Liverpool fans in the main. Thankfully both clubs seem to have put that one to bed.
The city hasn't though - still orange lodges and marches every year.

TheJamaicanP.M.

01/12/2004, 5:14 PM

It wasn't them, it was Chelsea.... :rolleyes:

No it was Liverpool fans. You're listening to their propaganda. :rolleyes:

Dillo

02/12/2004, 4:45 PM

The poll is shaping up nicely above! :p
26 voters and the blues are in a commanding position!
Everybody can'y be wrong. :)

DolansWaistcoat

05/12/2004, 6:54 PM

Not a hope in hell of Everton finishing above liverpool this year or any year for that matter.Fair enough Moyes has done a great job with a team containing Kevin Kilbane and Lee Carsely,(two players blasted in the National team Forum of this site every two days for being Sh!t) and everton will challenge for a top six spot but better than liverpool not a hope.

We had same thing this two years ago aswell when Everton were challenging for a champions league spot for most of the year and the 'tide was turning blue in merseyside blablabla' and yet liverpool still finished ahead of them fairly easily in the end,and with a side so dependent on Michael Owen and Gerrard to win them games.

I think Beni will do a good job if he's given a chance,get rid of Kewell and a few other wasters and bring in some more quality players in january.Alonso has been a great success with Garcia and Josemi doing well to a lesser degree.Plus don't forget Cisse was a Houllier buy and I wouldn't be suprised if he never played for liverpool again,if he ever fully recovers that is.

Dillo

06/12/2004, 5:57 PM

Not a hope in hell of Everton finishing above liverpool this year or any year for that matter.

Not a hope in hell you say. You're fairly adamant anyway! :p A team containing Kilbane and Carsley?? What's wrong with such a team? Kevin Kilbane is a fully established international at this stage and has gained great respect of late for his recent performances including that great night in the Saint Denis :) . He puts in trojan work for both Ireland and Everton. Carsley is doing a fine job in front of the Everton back four and as we all know has been there at every beck and call for Ireland. Two such whole-hearted and dedicated pros been knocked by a l@nger! Liverpool mightn't be in the predicament they are if they hadn't such players with attitude problems like Harry Kewell. You're expectations aren't too high when you label Garcia and Josemi a success. Distinctly average might be a more appropiate description. Alonso was diabolical against Boro at the Riverside and has yet to deliver any sort of consistency. Sixteen games now played and Rafa is still three places Beneathus. Happy days! ;)

Kingdom

07/12/2004, 8:36 AM

I dunno about that. I certainly remember a time when Everton were the better team and winning titles and I don't see why a return to that is impossible.

Everton:
Div 1 Champs: 1984-85 , 1986-87
FA Cup Winners:1984
European Cup Winners Cup:1984-85

Liverpool:
Div 1 Champs: 1975-76, 1976-77, 1978-79, 1979-80, 1981-82, 1982-83, 1983-84, 1985-86, 1987-88, 1989-90
FA CUP:1985-86,1988-89
EUropean Cup:1976-77, 1977-78, 1980-81, 1983-84
UEFA Cup:1972-73, 1975-76

:rolleyes:

Yeah the records really stand up Conor. Incidently the European trophy that Everton won, was a competition Liverpool couldn't give two flucks about during the good old days because we were too busy winning the European Cup. If Everton were good to suggest a dominant period in Europe then surely they would have dominated the domestic game also??

In fact bar Evertons two pre-war(s) FA CUP wins there hasn't been any time when Everton were winning trophies that Liverpool weren't....unless you were referring to the 1930-31 DIV 2 League win?????

Yes it is hard for the Reds to take that the Toffees are sticking it to us , but it is only a temporary measure. Some of the current crop of players at Anfield just aren't good enough and yes if they only had half of the ethic some of the Blue boys have then we would be in a far better position.
Juust on a different point. Supposedly Cisse was not going to last at Anfield, as Benitez wanted to have Baros as the focus of the attack (someone else poitned out that Benitez tried to sign him at Valencia) I don't think this was the case. As it is its €20m down the drain as the boy is out for the rest of the season, and cannot be condemned as a failure as he didn't have enough time to prove himself.
With January and the transfer window approaching hopoefully some good signings will happen.

Kingdom

07/12/2004, 8:58 AM

And that's the most notable thing about your list, how far back you're going for serious trophies like the league title for both teams. Fair enough you think Lpool are better than Everton, but frankly in this day and age it's a bit like Huddersfield and Blackpool arguing about their past glories.

However I'm not arrogant enough to try and argue the above point. It's a fact now that Liverpool are not challenging for the League and have not been for a while, which makes this thread even more disgusting. Having to worry about Everton instead of worrying about ManUre.

:mad:

Macy

07/12/2004, 8:59 AM

Yeah the records really stand up Conor. Incidently the European trophy that Everton won, was a competition Liverpool couldn't give two flucks about during the good old days because we were too busy winning the European Cup. If Everton were good to suggest a dominant period in Europe then surely they would have dominated the domestic game also??
To suggest that Everton weren't one of the top teams in the mid-late 80's is laughable. Norman stopped them doing a treble in 85 ffs, and as I'm sure you're aware they were banned from Europe for their 85/86 and 87/88 European Cup campaigns when they had an excellent team.

Kingdom

07/12/2004, 9:20 AM

To suggest that Everton weren't one of the top teams in the mid-late 80's is laughable. Norman stopped them doing a treble in 85 ffs, and as I'm sure you're aware they were banned from Europe for their 85/86 and 87/88 European Cup campaigns when they had an excellent team.

I didn't say they weren't one of the top teams. I just didn't feel they were better than the Pool. I might be blinkered at the best of times, but they certainly were the only rivals to Liverpool in the mid eighties. They just weren't better thats all. Anyway tis only an opinion.

Dillo

07/12/2004, 2:27 PM

DolansWaistcoat

08/12/2004, 6:23 AM

[QUOTE=Kingdom]Everton:
Div 1 Champs: 1984-85 , 1986-87
FA Cup Winners:1984
European Cup Winners Cup:1984-85

Have you got Alzheimers lad?? Everton beat ManUre at Wembley in '95 to win the FA Cup! ;) Quite obvious you're fond of the copy and paste job!

Next Saturdays game at Goodison will tell a thing or two! :cool:
I'm quietly confident of a blue victory although they'll just come and sit back and soak up the pressure as usual.

:D
Hahaha,you talk about liverpool coming to soak up the pressure at everton when I think it was last year that everton came to Anfield and were battered sensless for 90 minutes and hung in there for a 0-0.It was 3-0 to liverpool at goodison aswell I think so that really shows liverpool 'sitting back and soaking up the pressure'. :rolleyes:Actually when was the last time everton beat liverpool?,about five or six years ago i'd say.Roll on saturday.

Fair enough Everton won the cup in 95(and I was delighted) but it was manures to take if they could have taken one of their twenty chances on goal,it was almost as big a farce as the 88 final the way everton clung onto there lead.

Macy

08/12/2004, 9:07 AM

Hate pointing out the REALLY obvious but have you seen ANY of Liverpool's FA Cup wins lately. I think they usually were of the '1 shot on goal, 1 goal' variety (they may have had a few more against Sunderland), and if I remember right they were also allowed to punch the ball off the line three times in a game to further help them...
2 Cup finals they survived the hand balls in the box.

I just try and gloss over that last week of the 95 season - two goals and it would've been another double.....

Macy

08/12/2004, 11:01 AM

I just think a Liverpool fan knocking Everton's Cup victories and completely forgetting how Liverpool performed in theirs is the height of selective memory.
I know, it just brought back some painful memories of that day in Upton Park - Cole hitting the post, not picking Hughes, having to travel to that dump...

Karlos

08/12/2004, 11:12 AM

2 Cup finals they survived the hand balls in the box.

I....

Macy, at last we found something to agree on!!

If I ever get within an inch of that bloody Stefane Henchoz after his basketball display against Arsenal in 2001 cost us the bloody cup, there's no telling what I do!!! Also had to watch the game in the GPO in Galway thanks to a friends wedding, not another fellow gooner in sight!! :o

DolansWaistcoat

08/12/2004, 11:51 AM

:confused:

Hate pointing out the REALLY obvious but have you seen ANY of Liverpool's FA Cup wins lately. I think they usually were of the '1 shot on goal, 1 goal' variety (they may have had a few more against Sunderland), and if I remember right they were also allowed to punch the ball off the line three times in a game to further help them...

What do you mean ANY of their cup wins lately,they've won it once since 1993 and it was a very fortunate win against Arsenal in 2001.Michael Owen being the difference on the day with two goals(the second was a great counterattack) in the last ten minutes while Henry and co missed chance after chance.

As for punching the ball off the line I think the goalie is allowed do that if he wants. :rolleyes: :D
The ball hit Henchoz on the arm a couple of times,which is ball to hand and not a penalty imo AND the referees on that day.

Dillo

08/12/2004, 4:53 PM

[QUOTE=DolansWaistcoat]:D
Hahaha,you talk about liverpool coming to soak up the pressure at everton when I think it was last year that everton came to Anfield and were battered sensless for 90 minutes and hung in there for a 0-0.

I think a certain Wayne Rooney hit the crossbar that day in Anfield! Tonight will yer final game in the Champions League so enjoy it! ;)
Use will come to Goodison on Saturday then full of confidence. :rolleyes:

Dillo

08/12/2004, 5:02 PM

Was that the game where Gerrard thought he would really like to hear the sound of a bone snap and thought Gary Naysmith would be perfect fodder?

That was the same game alright Conor. Hear the scumbag is leaving for Chelsea shortly though. Use will be nicely fcuked then! :p Oh yeah sure ye still have Diao. ;)

joeSoap

08/12/2004, 8:20 PM

At the mo, I'm draped across the couch, can of heino in hand, packet of Walkers Prawn Cocktail, and lap-top resting rather precariously, watching Liverpool crashing out of the Champions League, 1-1 (15mins left). She-Devil at work, more heino in fridge...........does it get any better than this???? :D :D

joeSoap

08/12/2004, 8:24 PM

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........2-1...mellor scores...nervy last 8 mins :(

joeSoap

08/12/2004, 8:31 PM

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........2-1...mellor scores...nervy last 8 mins :(

How sad am I??..........3-1, Gerrard total basta rd......... :mad: :o :o

4tothefloor

08/12/2004, 10:31 PM

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha! You plonker! Wipe that egg off your face :p :p I was on the couch as well, but I ended up on cloud nine.

I hope every Man Ure fan enjoyed that Gerrard special. What will we be like when we actually get our full side back and sign some decent players? ;)

gustavo

08/12/2004, 10:43 PM

What will we be like when we actually get our full side back and sign some decent players? ;)

still crap probably :D

4tothefloor

08/12/2004, 10:48 PM

Tonight will yer final game in the Champions League so enjoy it! ;)

I'd dump that crystal ball of yours, it's not working bud. It's giving you crazy kamikazee predictions of Evertons future i.e. finishing above Liverpool :D, while it has also left you down tonight, after we progressed to the Q\Finals of the CHAMPIONS LEAGUE (thats the competition that Everton have never qualified for, and never will, just in case you're wondering).

Altogether now.......
Rafa, Rafael
Rafa, Rafael
Rafa, Rafael
Rafael Benitez :D

Longfordian

08/12/2004, 11:33 PM

Last 16, don't get ahead of yerselves, looking at the potential opponents, it'll be tricky for ye to go further, ye're not 66/1 for nothing

DolansWaistcoat

09/12/2004, 6:27 AM

[QUOTE=DolansWaistcoat]:D

I think a certain Wayne Rooney hit the crossbar that day in Anfield! Tonight will yer final game in the Champions League so enjoy it! ;)
Use will come to Goodison on Saturday then full of confidence. :rolleyes:

Eh,no that was the year before last I think yet another game where ye came to anfield hoping for a point and defending as if yer lives depended on it,i'm talking about last season when ye were battered senseless for ninety minutes,the everton goalie got man of the match i'm sure.When was the last time everton beat liverpool Dillo,I asked ya all ready was it about 9 or 10 games ago?

Anyway everton might win saturday but they are still sh!t and the pool will finish miles ahead as usual.

rOLL on the last 16 of the Champions leagUE. :D