Republic of Ireland V Scotland - Saturday, 13th June 2015 - Euro 2016 Qualifier

[Real ale Madrid]

Nothing worse than a look at the overall state of Irish football every time the senior side has a bad result. It's every blooming match at this stage. If the majority of the 35,000 fans who went yesterday attended the league of Ireland we would be producing dozens of top players.

The real question is are we getting the best Out of what we have . A team like ours needs to be greater than the sum of its parts to be successful at this level. We have to ask do we have a manager capable of getting that kind of effort from his players.
I'm not sure myself either way but it's been disappointing so far. We are not totally out of it I think though. There is bound to be a twist of some sort yet.

[paul_oshea]

I only saw this article now, but it definitely, more than ever rings true, and it was written before the game

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/larry-ryan/oneill-needs-to-sell-us-a-dream-to-cling-to-336736.html

[zero]

i was digusted by the team selection, attitude and performance. i won't be attending another game while o'neill is in charge.

i thought the atmosphere at lansdowne road was very flat compared to that in glasgow. i was also shocked that the team wasn't booed off.

[backstothewall]

Maybe it's time to play one of or both Coleman and Brady in wide midfield to get the most out of them and play Ward at full back.

I think we all overstate how bad he is sometimes (me included). He is solid enough.

Northern Ireland's RB plays for Fleetwood Town in League One and he has took to this level like a duck in water.

It's one Heath-Robinson left-back after another. You make a great point about Conor McLaughlin playing for the North. If he is good enough we should start next season picking whoever is the best natural young left-back playing somewhere. If that means a Derrick Williams, Sean Kavanagh or Enda Stevens getting a run, so be it.

They may make mistakes, but so will an experienced premier league player playing out of position. At least a young kid might develop in the role and as a player.

[jbyrne]

By the way, not sure if this has been mentioned, but the moment after the Scotland goal was the most surreal moment I've ever experienced in Lansdowne Road.

Are we the only professional team in sporting history to celebrate an away goal with music via the PA system? I reckon we might be. It was a disgusting moment.

i despise goal celebration music but whoever decided to play if after their goal should be fired.

lansdowne used to be a feared stadium for away teams but boy do we roll out the red carpet for the opposition these days. total joke

[paul_oshea]

im getting a bit annoyed now with the stuff coming out from the players afterwards, some using the word luck, and deflections etc when saying that we kept them bombarded with high balls. Its showing a complete lack of direction or ideas when you rely on something from big long balls. They should be out saying we didnt contain and hold the ball well enough and play through them.

The point about Given waving the arms on 50 is dead right, its ridiculous, funny though in the last 10 or 15 minutes he kept it on the ground a lot more, but he spent ages in actually making the pass. Hendrick trudging along as well really grated me. Ah I'm more annoyed again thinking about it. Complete lack of ideas, and lack of urgency cos no ideas.

Brady disappointed me in the last while when we really needed him though, he hit mclean twice and also just looked really uncomfortable.

[Crosby87]

I saw one funny thing, after the goal the camera panned the crowd and there were all these peeps cheering and one guy in the middle of it trying to cheer and eat a big hero sandwhich at the same time....I suspect it was someone from here.

[boysingreen]

What a lucky c*** Maloney is (not a bad player). On the right side of an OG at the Aviva, and I was watching highlights from Scotland/Georgia's first meeting, and he was involved in one there too (shot, keeper blocks it, bounces off defender, into the net).

And that goal v. Georgia was decisive, 1-0 in Scotland, massive 3 points. The brief analysis I saw of that game was that Scotland dominated, but couldn't find the net- also that their keeper didn't have a save to make all night. Scotland's goal did come before the half hour mark, so maybe they felt somewhat complacent at home. Not a lot to make me too optimistic about the Scots slipping up in Tbilisi, but maybe Lady Luck won't be wearing their strip this time.

[seanfhear]

Do the Players believe in/enjoy Hoofball.

How many players are playing this way at Club level.
I would say that they are being told not too play this way at club level and then when they come to Play for Ireland Martin O'Neill is asking them to play in a manner that they don't believe/know how to/want to.

I think that by the way our players are performing that they are being asked to play is against what they are being coached at Club level.

Martin O'Neill should know better than to ask Players to do what is very much against their normal game.

How many Clubs are Playing Hoofball these days.

[boysingreen]

If we beat Georgia and Gibraltar, and lose to Germany, we'll go into the final match day, away to Poland, on 15 points.

Assuming Scotland win in Georgia and lose to Germany, they'll enter the penultimate match at home vs. Poland on 14 points.

Assuming Poland beat Gibraltar and lose away to Germany, they'll enter the penultimate match away to Scotland on 17 points.

Scotland have their final game at Gibraltar, so that will be +3 points.

Assume Germany run the table.

I started considering these permutations to figure out the best and worst result for us in the Scotland vs. Poland match, but it seems that we'll most likely need to win in Poland, regardless of who wins Sco/Pol (or draw).

Perhaps a Poland win in Scotland would then be best, as they would clinch qualification and be much less interested in their final meeting with us (certainly less interested compared to any other result v. Scotland, which would leave them vulnerable [technically! /grin] to being knocked out on the final match day by an Irish win).

[Stuttgart88]

I've reached my Irish Times limit. Can someone paste Kerr's analysis here please?

[jbyrne]

I've reached my Irish Times limit. Can someone paste Kerr's analysis here please?

The Republic of Ireland manager seemed to have stumbled upon a system that works. That accommodated Wes Hoolahan. That had Scotland on the rack for 45 minutes and 58 seconds. That’s when it slipped away but the key moment came just after Scotland equalised.

Hoolahan evaded Scott Brown in midfield, casting doubt in the back-pedalling defence before brilliantly presenting Daryl Murphy with a sight of goal on his favoured left foot. This was the moment. The striker nobody expected to start receiving an assist from the creator everyone wanted to start.

That’s three chances now Murphy has missed for Ireland in a week. Two against England as well. I always felt he would be a bit short at this level but he had a good game and may have done enough to stay in the team. But, cruel as it may sound, that was the moment. There should have been more but there wasn’t.


Ireland manager Martin O’Neill cuts a frustrated figure. Photograph: Inpho/Cathal NoonanMartin O’Neill waits for lift-off after Scots make their point

An offside Jonathan Walters scores Ireland’s first-half goal at the Aviva. Photograph: Reuters / Cathal McNaughton.Ken Early: Ireland are poor, and we're getting worse

James McCarthy of Ireland and Scott Brown of Scotland during the draw at the Aviva stadium on Saturday. Photograph: Donall Farmer/InphoFrustrated Eamon Dunphy delivers equine verdict on James McCarthy’s performance

Northern Ireland’s Kyle Lafferty after failing to score agaings Romanian goalkeeper Ciprian Tatarusanu at Windsor Park on Saturday. Photograph: ReutersTwo games to decide Northern Ireland's Euro 2016 fate

James McClean heads a late chance wide as Ireland desperately searched for a winner against Scotland at the Aviva Stadium. Photograph: James Crombie/InphoIreland face Euro exit after failing to get better of Scotland

Republic of Ireland defender John O’Shea at the final whistle of the Euro 2016 qualifying game against Scotland at the Aviva Stadium on Saturday. Photograph: Donall Farmer/Inpho.John O’Shea hopes wins in September can keep Ireland in frame

There was a plan and clarity about Martin O’Neill’s team. You could see the hours of work done on the training ground. Even the selections of Murphy and Jeff Hendrick ahead of James McClean and Shane Long seemed justified.

The team’s lop-sided shape with Hendrick, James McCarthy – his best game in a green jersey – and Glenn Whelan stacked to the right, Hoolahan ahead of them and Jon Walters wide right was initially effective.

Quality crosses

O’Neill trusted McCarthy’s energy to provide cover for Robbie Brady. Leaving an inexperienced left back so exposed was a dangerous gamble but Brady defended well. What he didn’t do was provide quality crosses when they were needed most.



This new system worked until it didn’t. While ensuring we were not outnumbered in central midfield, it was robbing Peter to pay Paul. A better side than Scotland, and there are two in Group D, would have exploited our exposed left flank.

You could see Hoolahan looking over his shoulder every time Alan Hutton got the ball. There was too much space. McCarthy would shoot out of the middle. A calculated risk that paid off because of sheer desire to be first to the ball. The variety of Shay Given’s kickouts to Murphy and Walters combined with some neat combination play had Scotland in disarray.

When taking a one-nil lead, from one of Brady’s initially troublesome corners, it looked like the Scots wouldn’t recover. Walters was offside for the goal so we even had the dose of luck needed in a game overflowing with tension. We had the correct shape. We had the intent.

Then, 58 seconds into the second half, we had none of the above.

Gordon Strachan’s starting XI helped. Craig Forsyth was there for height but his presence, and Matt Richie in ahead of Ikechi Anya, played into our hands.

Until Strachan changed up at half-time with Anya on and Steven Naismith moving to the number 10 position. That, and a deflected goal by Shaun Maloney off John O’Shea’s back, ended our dominance.

No coincidence that Naismith and Anya had touches before Maloney let fly. It must be put down to a lack of concentration.

Thereafter, the best football we’ve seen from an Irish midfield since I don’t know when was swallowed by the game’s intensity. Hendrick, Hoolahan, McCarthy were no longer as prominent. Scotland squeezed them out. Anya checked Seamus Coleman’s impact down the right.

Suddenly, without any warning, we were transported back to Celtic Park in November. Was the first half a mirage? It was certainly cancelled out by the second 45 minutes.

O’Neill made some brave decisions when chasing the game. He changed the system – well, Strachan, it could be argued, changed it for him. Still, introducing McClean for Whelan was brave. It took the chief protector of the Irish defence out of the game for a natural attacker.

Then he took Wes off and put Robbie Keane on. Hoolahan was always the one, I felt, most likely to create a goal. Keane got one sight of goal from distance and hit his shot straight at David Marshall.

The quality of ball in from Brady deteriorated badly when it needed to be reliable. Scotland defended better than we attacked. They dealt with our best without ever overly straining themselves.

With Hoolahan went the game, as nothing else threatened to unlock our visiting neighbour’s defence.



Mini-group

So, to the consequences. Everyone is beating Georgia and Gibraltar so in reality we are in a mini-group with Germany, Poland and Scotland. From that we have three draws and a defeat so we deserve to be lying fourth. Six handy enough points will come from the next two matches before Germany at home and Poland away. It could come down to needing a win in Warsaw.



It’s not out of our hands yet. O’Neill got decent performances out of a side that lacks the guile to turn a draw into a victory. It left the field with Hoolahan.

That first 45 minutes, while better football than anything we saw under Giovanni Trapattoni’s tightly controlled reign, was not enough.

It’s a shame really because nobody should question the desire of this Ireland squad but Scotland, when we strip it all down, wanted it more in Glasgow and they reinforced that in Dublin.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Too depressing/depressed, Stutts...

[paul_oshea]

Trap and O'Neill talked us down at every opportunity, look at Strachan or O'Neill at northern Ireland. refreshing the positivity and confidence that comes from that. The big problem for us is this is reflected on the pitch everyone is scared to get on the ball or use it effectively instead always looking to get rid of it for the easy option -usually backwards - even at throws no one is showing for the ball!!

[Straightstory]

I think Scotland could well fail to beat Georgia away. (We barely managed it). I think Ireland are not out if this yet - purely because Scotland aren't that great and could well slip up. (We're obviously not that great either, but I think we have a better chance of a play-off place than most people think).

[paul_oshea]

O’Neill trusted McCarthy’s energy to provide cover for Robbie Brady. Leaving an inexperienced left back so exposed was a dangerous gamble but Brady defended well. What he didn’t do was provide quality crosses when they were needed most.

The quality of ball in from Brady deteriorated badly when it needed to be reliable.

This is exactly what I thought, but everyone i spoke to after the match said he played well and then i heard he had motm. I couldn't understand it.

I honestly don't think Murphy played that well, he did what he was supposed to do, but again that's not effective. I believe had keane or Long been in there they would have finished it. It's actually one of the worst attempts, he had a yard or two on defender but didn't have the pace to break straight through, and the shot under pressure was straight at the keeper. Anywhere else it had a chance of going in, but he hit it straight at him.

[paul_oshea]

I think Scotland could well fail to beat Georgia away. (We barely managed it). I think Ireland are not out if this yet - purely because Scotland aren't that great and could well slip up. (We're obviously not that great either, but I think we have a better chance of a play-off place than most people think).

If we make it to a play-off, I'll give you £100, to do with what you like, I hope charitable. :) I like my money, so that's saying something.

We are too frail, too fragile, complete lack of confidence and a manager setting us out to play a way that doesn't suit our best players, or not picking our best players to play our best formation. We will not get a win(against either Germany at home or Poland away) that we need because of all this, and the campaign will peter out. O'Neill does not set us up or give the confidence when needing to win, and we haven't done anything away from home in a generation. Even if Scotland drew in Georgia, we still need to outpoint them against Germany and Poland, they have both teams at home.

I am also convinced that O'Neill might only be aware of the head to head scenario in the last couple of days.

[DannyInvincible]

Decided to have a re-watch of the game last night. The performance wasn't actually as bad as is being made out by some. Naturally, the significance of the disappointing result has coloured views in hindsight, but we were well on top for 70 minutes of that game. We always looked the more likely to win. If only scores were awarded for huffing and puffing...

It was a very intense and spirited first-half. We were totally dominant and our closing down prevented Scotland from playing. Scott Brown, who thinks of himself as a bit of a hardman, was over-run and the Scottish defence looked desperate at times. (Marshall is a safe and trustworthy keeper though.) Even Wes was physically bullying them. At one point we strung about 16 or 17 passes together before Glenn Whelan decided to let a shot fly. It was a good period of possession; proper football. Scotland never did anything like that at any point during the game. We totally deserved to be up 1-0, even if the goal we scored was offside.

Murphy did well throughout, as did Walters. They definitely caused problems. Coleman was getting into good positions and we were utilising him a lot more which was positive at least. Unfortunately, his end-product was absent. I thought Wilson did OK as well. He was getting stuck in and winning tackles; showing passion you want to see. McCarthy was definitely up for it too; maybe trying too hard, a bit like McGeady had done in Glasgow, but good to see the spirit there and him at least attempting to stamp some authority on the midfield. Dunphy lambasted him post-match as having never done anything for both Ireland and Everton; ridiculous attack upon a terrific player who is the pivot of Martinez' team.

Brady had a good game. Did well up the wing and his deliveries were dangerous; he's a good asset to have and comforting to have someone like him to fill the left-back position, which has long been a problem area for us. He showed great spirit as well, for example, running full-pelt to capture the ball from going out for a Scottish throw-in late-on in order to help us get another attack going.

There was a bit of a lull and our concentration possibly fell after coming out for the second half. Anya's introduction appeared to give Scotland another outlet as well. The goal was very scabby. Such a rotten deflection. (In saying that, if I was a Scotland supporter, I'd be mad about our blatantly offside goal in return.) I couldn't believe it went in though. And who was the idiot playing the celebratory music over the tannoy? Music to accompany goals is cringeworthy enough, but playing it when the opposition scores?! Someone needs sacked for that. The plonker also attributed the goal to Steven Fletcher... Fletcher wasn't even near the ball!

Could Shay have done better to make a save though for their goal (which took such a preposterous deflection that UEFA have officially put it down as an O'Shea own-goal)? Was Shay a bit flat-footed? I keep re-watching it but I just can't make it out for sure. It looks like it could have been within his reach, but then watching an already-cumbersome Shay in slow-motion obviously isn't going to do him any favours. Westwood should have started either way. Shay was consistently slow in getting the ball moving again.

Hoolahan coming off was a mistake, although he was perhaps tiring; he worked his socks off and he is 33. That can be Martin's only defence there. Nevertheless, we regained dominance ever so slightly for the last 20 minutes - McClean's introduction helped us be more direct - but there was much less real penetration. We were getting crosses in, but, as Liam Brady said in studio, crosses aren't chances.

I'm not sure O'Neill has the answer. There was no problem with the team's work-rate and graft, but that only goes so far, and our results have shown that; the best we can seemingly do is draw games. Overall, we were limited in the final third and it grew terribly frustrating. I'm concerned for the long-term future.

Ref pretty useless all round. I don't know how much influence upon him Naismith might have had, but he is still a mouthy pest, and then there was Fletcher play-acting too.


There's a section in the brilliant David Winner book on Dennis Bergkamp Stillness and Speed were Bergkamp starts talking about in Holland as a rule they put their players with the most technical ability in the middle of the pitch. Their 'athletes' go out wide.
Today we had Brady and Hoolahan trying to affect the game from the periphery.
The pair of them and another should be in the middle of the pitch running the game.

O'Neill is never gonna buy into this.

Is Ruud Dokter ingraining this philosophy at youth level?

[paul_oshea]

DI the first bit of your post had me thinking you watched a completely different game to me. Funny i watched the highlights again last night on ITV, the Ireland game was the shortest highlight package, against all the others, but was 2nd in order - that is telling, it shows how little we actually did(chances created/shots on goals)*, which was my point earlier, peoples perception have been clouded by the fact we held the ball better, we provided very little and had very little efforts on goal in that first half when everyone thought we were doing well, crosses, possession and passing it back and forth across midfield are not chances and count for very little unless defending a lead in the latter stages of a game. For all this about Murphy, did he score? Did he score against England, what was the point in him starting? Strikers are there to score, 27 goals in championship, so what Long had 20 or so when he was there.

I think at the end of yesterday it reminded me a lot of the last game under Kerr. Completely toothless and the end for the man.

*That is down to playing walters and murphy in my opinion. Put long, mclean and keane(possibly) with hoolahan and i really think we could have created a lot more chances, and scored a couple of goals. We might have been poorer defensively but i dont think that matters given what has happened.

[Closed Account 2]

I think Scotland could well fail to beat Georgia away. (We barely managed it). I think Ireland are not out if this yet - purely because Scotland aren't that great and could well slip up. (We're obviously not that great either, but I think we have a better chance of a play-off place than most people think).


You're right, in a sense, in a perverse way the most important matches for us actually no longer involve us, Georgia v Scotland and Scotland v Poland will have the most bearing on our qualification. If Scotland get no points then I think we will get 3rd, if they get 1 point we might need to win in Warsaw on the last match day against (a hopefully already qualified) Poland. If Scotland get 2 or 3 points in those games I can't see us getting ahead of them and we will finish 4th.

Our fixtures: (currently 9pts)
(a) Gibraltar, (h) Georgia, (h) Germany, (a) Poland

Scotland's fixtures: (currently 11pts)
(a) Georgia, (h) Germany, (h) Poland, (a) Gibraltar

Germany's fixtures (currently 13pts)
(h) Poland, (a) Scotland, (a) Ireland, (h) Georgia

Poland's fixtures: (currently 14pts)
(a) Germany, (h) Gibraltar, (a) Scotland, (h) Ireland


We have to hope Scotland drop points (ideally lose, but above all must not win) in Tbilisi and then probably/hopefully they will lose at home to Germany, while in our next two we need to win in Faro (Gibraltar) and home to Georgia. This will se us move to 15 points and Scotland only on 11 (or 12 if they draw in Tbilisi). Then (the penultimate fixtures) see us play Germany at home and Scotland play Poland at home, we have to hope to better Scotland's result or at the worst case equal it. If we draw with Germany and they lose to Poland we'll be on 16 points and they'll only have 13 points with one fixture left. This would mean a draw (at by then hopefully already qualified Poland) would be enough to see us through, even if Scotland, as expected, beat Gibraltar at home in their last game.

[BonnieShels]

At what point will the outcry be so big that we might achieve change?

Iceland and the North and Wales are on the cusp of qualification.

We're on the cusp of elimination from the "easiest-to-qualify-for" tournament ever.

Blaming O'Neill and Keane is gonna get us no where. The damage is done long before they pick players for the national team.

Also, like Stutts I'm blaming Shay for the equaliser though a player of O'Shea's experience shouldn't have turned his back like that.

[paul_oshea]

The damage was done in Scotland with a totally toothless performance and a terrible selection.

Things in control of the team and management are directly responsible nothing else.

I think Oshea thought he was getting out of the way, as it was going way wide, but he was too slow or not nimble enough to fully pull out of the way.

[seanfhear]

At what point will the outcry be so big that we might achieve change?

Iceland and the North and Wales are on the cusp of qualification.

We're on the cusp of elimination from the "easiest-to-qualify-for" tournament ever.

Blaming O'Neill and Keane is gonna get us no where. The damage is done long before they pick players for the national team.

Also, like Stutts I'm blaming Shay for the equaliser though a player of O'Shea's experience shouldn't have turned his back like that.Was Shay going to get his Walking Stick ?

O'Neill should have had the Balls to leave him on the Bench.

[BonnieShels]

The damage was done in Scotland with a totally toothless performance and a terrible selection.

So therefore we should not bother in Dublin?


Things in control of the team and management are directly responsible nothing else.

They aren't blameless for the situation but they are not the main problem here. Irish soccer is in freefall.


I think Oshea thought he was getting out of the way, as it was going way wide, but he was too slow or not nimble enough to fully pull out of the way.

O'Shea shoudl KNOW that he is getting out of the way. Likewise Shay shoudl have KNOWN that the ball was sailing into the net.


Was Shay going to get his Walking Stick ?

O'Neill should have had the Balls to leave him on the Bench.

He should have. I was gutted when I saw him start.

It was like watching the Croatia game in Euro2012 again.

[TrapAPony]

The chances are high that Ireland will still be in with the chance of a playoff with a game to go. However, it looks like we will have to beat Poland in Warsaw to get this which I don't see happening.

[Crosby87]

We can beat Poland in warsaw. We can just trick them into shooting at their own net.

[Kingdom]

Sigh!
I don't know whether this feeling is what happens all football fans when they reach their mid-30's or if this is what happens to Ireland supporters following a succession of inept campaigns. Either way, me no likey.

I had started to think really positively in the last few days, then I saw the team sheet. Immediate deflation:
Daryl Murphy - not good enough.
Shay Given - undeserving of his place
Two forwards and not one of them Shane Long
McGeady dropped and McClean not started.

That said, there was plenty to be content with during the first half; and that should be the biggest sign of how bad things are getting: that a passible first half performance elicits an overreaction from 95% of the stakeholders of Irish football. This was nowhere near the best days of the past 7/8 years (say Italy away, Estonia away or Bulgaria away) it was just middle of the road.
Once the 60 minute mark had rolled by and our tempo hadn't gone up another notch, it was palpable that the game was going to finish in at best a draw.

I fear I've been over-critical on Shay Given, but I can't let it go. I thought he got an extremely easy ride for the cup final for the goals, he didn't look comfy against England, and he did not look comfy yesterday either. The shot was deflected but Given surely was anticipating the ball was intended for that corner anyway, and didn't move at all. I'm probably overreacting, but it's because Westwood should be number 1. I thought Coleman offered his best better than for a long time, but his final ball was obviously poor. That said, Murphy's movement was shocking, truly shocking.
Brady was far from brilliant, and I bemoan how many people are lulled into thinking what Dunphy says is fact. He attacked the space well a couple of times. His delivery btw was in no way better than McGeady who is constantly criticised.

I thought John O'Shea had a much improved game. He was imperious in the air, and I lost count the number of times he attacked the ball on the ground and won it ahead of Fletcher. His distribution was weak, and he is at fault for the back 4 dropping so deep, when holding a higher line would have given Scotland less space to play into.
Marc Wilson I would jettison. He is not an International standard centre-half.

I actually though both McCarthy and Whelan did fine. Problem is they both do the same thing, and we only need one to do that.

A problem we're failling to solve is how to marry being a strong, tall, physical group, with being a quick, clever, technical team. The type of players we want to move the ball around, are unfortunately not that big. I suspect this might be why Long didn't start with Wes.
Think of the marginal calls: Murphy/Long; Hendrick/Quinn; Wes/McClean; Ward/Brady - in picking the two small lads, it meant he needed to compensate in the air. It is definitely a factor even if others don't want to acknowledge it.

Hendrick was a lot of nothing, without doing anything particularly wrong at the same time. Didn't recycle the ball particularly well though.
Wes was a wonder when we actually got the ball to him. He's sees things none of our other players see. Three times he ran with the ball into areas that petrified Scotland, and we really should have capitalised twice.


at the risk of repeating myself, this management team is just Trapattoni's Ireland wrapped in a different quilt. I've all but stopped reading mainstream sports reporting because it doesn't ask the questions that need to be asked. (Emmet Malone has gone stale. We don't have a Gerry Thornley equivalent. I'd like to read Ian O'Riordan grilling Irish soccer).

Why hasn't Westwood returned to the number 1 jersey?
Why do we persist with a system that doesn't play to our strengths?
instead of saying "We don't have the players!" why persist with the same players who do the same things ad nauseum?
Why play two holding central midfield players at home in a must-win match?
Why arrange friendlies that are more than friendlies (England) when developing the squad is so important and those matches prevent from doing so?

I have said before and will continue to say that if we want our international team to play football, then we need to pick footballers. Pick one of
I honestly feel that so many people have lost what should have been noted with Grealish. It was a travesty that it took the CUp semi-final performance to get a clamour for his inclusion. He should have been around the first team 18 months ago. A player of his qualities, once he proved he could take the rough and tumble of league two, was always going to be suited to international football.

There are a lot of educated football fans on this forum. A lot more than most other places. We're pretty well versed on what options are available to us. I do not agree that we don't have players that can improve the squad. The point was made about how Norn Iron have compiled their squad. They've cut their cloth accordingly. We have not however. We've essentially picked the highest ranked players in their positions, irrespective of how much football they play. I watch the Premier League. It's sh!t. The football is sh!t. I watch the championship. The football there is good. I want to see Harry Arter, Tommy Hoban, Reece Grego-Cox, Derrick Williams, Samir Carruthers all get a chance in the next few squads. Name Patrick Bamford and Jack Grealish in the squads. They are Irish players as they've played underage football with us. Make Fifa get involved, and force the issue.
I want Eoin Doyle to get a chance too. What are the weakest positions in the squad? A goal-scoring centre-forward, a proper link man, and a left full. Either solve those positions properly, or set the team up to elimate the problem. We don't have a left-full? No problem, we'll play 352 with wing backs, Coleman one side, Brady/McClean the other.

I'm sick of seeing the same rubbish year in, year out. We've a home game with Georgia, and a free pass v Gibralter. No excuses, pick a development team v the Rock.

------------------------Westwood--------------------

-------------Duffy--------O'Shea--------Clark--------

Coleman -----------------mcCarthy--------------McClean

--------------Hoolahan---------------McGeady------------

---------------------------Bamford-----------------------

-----------------------------Long------------------------

[Kingdom]

Just on the general Irish football development thing.....

I'm pretty upset about how things have developed in Irish football pretty much since I've been a schoolboy myself. I personally disagree that Irish schoolboy football is not good enough. I would agree that things could be done differently in the 10-13 bracket, sure, but I don't think it's all doom and gloom. Facilities could definitely be better. Being around a schoolboy team, I see week-in week-out some excellent footballers, on our pitch and the surrounding pitches. I've also spent the guts of a year in England, and would say that their system is slightly better than ours, but the players are not. What they do that impressed me is that they did have an elite level squad at county from under 6's up, and the physical standard of those boys was incredible compared to mine, but not necessarily their technical ability.
I was in or around the Kerr squad that won the under 16's. I would have been definitely top 5 centre-back in Dublin, and probably 6/7th choice overall. defensively excellent, but extremely nervous on the ball, and it wasn't until I was playing football at a poor level that I began to have confidence in myself. I think more could be done to educate the schoolboys on the options open to them, both in football terms, and football-based college programs. I didn't come from a soccer family, and none of my mates were into organised football, so I didn't have that benefit.
What I would love to see would be an intergrated effort by the Dept Sport, Education and the FAI, that our promising schoolboys have programs available that helps them reach the highest possible standard they can, while also getting a relevant education. Use languages that open avenues for the kids that can play so that they do not have to go down the english treadmill all the time. The likes of Colaiste Naofa in Cork and Colaiste Ide in Finglas don't get as much exposure as they should. They run relatively decent football courses, which give plenty of kids the opportunity of a scholarship in America. I found out about these places too late in life.
Something that does upset me about schoolboy football, is the lack of progression. St Kevin's Boys should be a leading League of Ireland club, given the sheer number of players they have on their books. But they don't. From what I can see, their sole aim is to get as many kids across to England as possible, no different to Belvedere before them, or Home Farm before them, or Cherry Orchard before them.
This is where the FAI need to step up to the plate. They are the guys that hold all the aces. They pick the national underage teams. Set out guidelines that will completely restructure Irish football, as the FAI feel it needs to be, and then get all clubs to ascede to them. You won't? Fine, no schoolboy internationals for you. That will change attitudes quickly. Because a parent or schoolboy might want to play for Liverpool/United, but they also want to play for their country too, because the chances of it happening the higher up the line get slimmer and slimmer.

Just in case anyone thinks this is idealistic crap or that, I'm doing what I believe in. I have a boy of 8, who is the smallest in his team, and he is technically excellent, tough as nails and uber-confident. He can read a game and is two-footed. It has come from hours spent outside telling him what to do, and from watching matches with the sound off, so that he isn't getting someone elses idea of what constitutes a good player, as defined by English media. He is and will continue to learn foreign languages, so that if the time comes that he is able to make a decision to pursue a career in football, he'll have options that suit him.
He does not play for a "big" team. He is coached by a technically brilliant person in Tony Sheridan, and from what I see every week, I wouldn't have it any other way because he is getting exactly what he needs right now.

[JimEire123]

We need Scotland to drop points against Georgia, simple as that. If they do we have work to do but in our hands again. If they win then we are, unfortunately, deservedly, out!

[IsMiseSean]

Paul and Sean, would just one willing and able central midfielder change all that? I think it could.

Paul is right about picking Wes with the front two he picked. He's not the only one who made the point either. I referred to it as picking a mallet as the weapon of choice but also packing a penknife just in case the mallet doesn't work. But if you pick Wes surely you pick someone who makes the clever runs.

To be fair to Given in the first half he did roll it out quite a bit. The approach changed after they scored.
Maybe that was the instruction from the sideline or maybe it was panic?

[IsMiseSean]

Georgia v Scotland
Germany v Poland
Gibraltar v Ireland

Poland v Gibraltar
Ireland v Georgia
Scotland v Germany

Georgia v Gibraltar
Ireland v Germany
Scotland v Poland draw

Germany v Georgia
Gibraltar v Scotland
Poland v Ireland

Germany 25
Poland 18
Scotland 18
Ireland 18
Georgia 6
Gibraltar 0

If this were to happen, how would the 3 teams be separated?
I also depressingly noticed that if we didn't score our 3 injury time goals against Georgia, Germany & Poland we'd currently be on 5 points.

[paul_oshea]

I dont think i've ever agreed with you as much as on that post above kingdom! I texted my mates and Stutts and CTP at half time saying i didnt think we had played that well, but i could sense those watching on TV thought we would have, and all my mates texted me saying exactly that. I texted and said we have created absolutely nothing, and we hadn't!

[qoute]A problem we're failling to solve is how to marry being a strong, tall, physical group, with being a quick, clever, technical team. The type of players we want to move the ball around, are unfortunately not that big. I suspect this might be why Long didn't start with Wes.
Think of the marginal calls: Murphy/Long; Hendrick/Quinn; Wes/McClean; Ward/Brady - in picking the two small lads, it meant he needed to compensate in the air. It is definitely a factor even if others don't want to acknowledge it.[/quote]

Quinn made this point last week, I was half thinking he might have been looking for an excuse for himself(not being picked that is), but this is exactly what he said. Perhaps that's it.

Eoin Doyle or Daryl Murphy, neither are good enough, so i wouldn't agree with the last couple of paragraphs, the pl is better than the championship also, you cant legitimately argue that either. Overall good points well made.

You are like me now, the 5 emotions after an Ireland performance where we didn't get the result we needed. Turning to despair and anger now :D

[paul_oshea]

Georgia v Scotland
Germany v Poland
Gibraltar v Ireland

Poland v Gibraltar
Ireland v Georgia
Scotland v Germany

Georgia v Gibraltar
Ireland v Germany
Scotland v Poland draw

Germany v Georgia
Gibraltar v Scotland
Poland v Ireland

Germany 25
Poland 18
Scotland 18
Ireland 18
Georgia 6
Gibraltar 0

If this were to happen, how would the 3 teams be separated?
I also depressingly noticed that if we didn't score our 3 injury time goals against Georgia, Germany & Poland we'd currently be on 5 points.

Did you get that from YBIG John? Poland would be behind us, if we beat them. Scotland would be ahead of us. But what would depend is how scotland and poland do against eachother.

If the results were all the same and couldn't be separated it would be goals scored away from home etc, then down to straws I think...

[Real ale Madrid]

Great post Kingdom.

Think the LOI clubs need to step up to the plate as well as regards an alternative. You can only enforce that ban on only picking players based in Ireland on underage teams if they have access to similar type facilities for academies for clubs within the league here I think .

[Closed Account]

If this were to happen, how would the 3 teams be separated?

In that scenario, you'd have a mini table amongst the 3 teams
Poland 2-2 Scotland
Scotland 1-0 Ireland
Ireland 1-1 Poland
Ireland 1-1 Scotland
Scotland draw Poland
Poland lose Ireland

Scotland 6pts
Ireland 5pts
Poland 3pts

We'd pip the Poles to Playoffs

[IsMiseSean]

Did you get that from YBIG John?
I gave up on YBIG, it's hard enough listening to them on matchdays in the singing section lately.
That's all my own hard work, but if I knew it was on YBIG I would have done a copy & paste job :D

[Real ale Madrid]

Georgia v Scotland
Germany v Poland
Gibraltar v Ireland

Poland v Gibraltar
Ireland v Georgia
Scotland v Germany

Georgia v Gibraltar
Ireland v Germany
Scotland v Poland draw

Germany v Georgia
Gibraltar v Scotland
Poland v Ireland

Germany 25
Poland 18
Scotland 18
Ireland 18
Georgia 6
Gibraltar 0

If this were to happen, how would the 3 teams be separated?
I also depressingly noticed that if we didn't score our 3 injury time goals against Georgia, Germany & Poland we'd currently be on 5 points.

People are quick to say Germany will beat Poland at home and Scotland away.
So far they have P3 W1(Sco) L1(Pol) D1 (ROI) - and you can hardly say their form is good after a defeat to the USA last week. Be interesting to see the reaction if Poland draw in Germany.

[Stuttgart88]

I dont think i've ever agreed with you as much as on that post above kingdom! I texted my mates and Stutts and CTP at half time saying i didnt think we had played that well, but i could sense those watching on TV thought we would have, and all my mates texted me saying exactly that. I texted and said we have created absolutely nothing, and we hadn't!


Whats App exchange between me, Crafty and Paul at half time:

Crafty: Very happy with that as a half, even minus a goal. Tempo, passing, controlled intelligent aggression. Runs. And good to watch.
Paul. Yep.
Me: Nothing!

I did say here at half-time that I agreed with the post above (by passing interest) saying we played well and the game was set up for Long and McClean to come on later, if we were still ahead. I said I worried about our lack of experience of winning these games and felt we'd need some luck and for the lads to keep the heads and believe.

But yeah, Paul's right!

[Olé Olé]

I was baffled before the game by the selection and still am.

Murphy- not good enough. I'm struggling to think of more than or two occasions when he actually found an Irish player with a flick on.
Whelan and McCarthy- I actually thought Whelan was very good. He made life much easier for the defence in that he was always an outlet and did push on when we were attacking. I thought McCarthy was very poor beside him and can't fathom how Whelan was taken off first. McCarthy provided little go forward ball and was turned backwards by the Scottish terriers in the middle of the park more often than not.
Hoolahan and Hendrick- A big contrast here. Hoolahan drove forward at will and was always creative. Hendrick, as I've stated before, looks completely swamped when he takes more than one touch and when pressed by the Scots he looked uncomfortable. I can't understand how he started ahead of McClean. McClean's direct approach was one of the things we lacked. Brady tried to implement directness each time he got the ball by moving at pace and with urgency... forward. McClean would have added something like that but not from within the shackles of left back.
Coleman and Brady- both tried to be positive but Coleman's crossing was off and he didn't get enough space to do damage. Brady was excellent defensively and offensively. Again, I think he's shackled at left-back.
Wilson and O'Shea- Both were very good. I think O'Shea was immense and nothing went by him, other than that cruel, cruel deflection for the Scotland goal.

The team really disappointed me so at least my expectations going into the stadium weren't as high as they had been before that selection. Long and McClean would have offered us exactly what we needed in that match- directness and urgency. The selection has left us facing an uphill battle to qualify. It shouldn't be like this. Scotland aren't special.

[Stuttgart88]

...then down to straws I think...
I think we're already clutching at straws :(

[paul_oshea]

Stutts I didn't reply to that message, its completely different:

CTP very happy with that as a half even minus a goal....good to watch...who will come on.
Stutts : He told you so nobody else saw it.

I have no more messages after 5.45 from me! But i checked the other groups and it was another group i sent it to, thought i'd sent it to you and CTP.

[Kingdom]

The only thing that is giving me some hope is that Scotland have messed up in Georgia when in a commanding group position previously. They lost 2-0 in Sept under McLeish when Georgia has a 17 year old in goal, and a 16 yr old up front. Around 2008 I think?

[SkStu]

lots of stuff

very similar to my bullet point summary. Just a lot longer. :) And better!

[Stuttgart88]

Great chat here about James McCarthy

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-was-james-mccarthy-actually-bad-scotland-1874738-Jun2015/

especially the bit by Giles and Whelan in analysis of a GER v ARG game (though not the WC Final as the caption said?).

The last Irish midfielder I remember carrying the ball forward was Steven Reid.

[Stuttgart88]

The only thing that is giving me some hope is that Scotland have messed up in Georgia when in a commanding group position previously. They lost 2-0 in Sept under McLeish when Georgia has a 17 year old in goal, and a 16 yr old up front. Around 2008 I think?
Momentum is kind of self-reinforcing though. If you have a habit of getting what you need, you get what you need. Scotland are doing that by hook or by crook. We don't. I don't think Scotkand are that good but they're good enough to get what they need from here on. They'll scrape by in Georgia and get a point from their other home games, maybe more.

[paul_oshea]

Yes, and even so, we have proven that we are not capable of taking our chances or doing what we need to do, regardless of what other teams around us do.

[Crosby87]

MOL as victim
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/martin-oneill-produced-master-class-playing-5884343

[Stuttgart88]

I wouldn't be rushing to defend him.

[Kingdom]

Momentum is kind of self-reinforcing though. If you have a habit of getting what you need, you get what you need. Scotland are doing that by hook or by crook. We don't. I don't think Scotkand are that good but they're good enough to get what they need from here on. They'll scrape by in Georgia and get a point from their other home games, maybe more.

I don't like contradicting you, but have a gawk at this. Hope....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2008_qualifying_Group_B

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2008/matches/round=2241/match=83996/postmatch/report/index.html#youthful+georgia+hurt+scotland+hopes

Klaus Toppmoller. another decent manager we would pooh-pooh

[paul_oshea]

If that group followed we would need 11 points, as they would have 19 points from there...