something for lovers of our language

[max power]

Ireland tables formal proposal request official and working status

for the Irish language in the European Union


The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dermot Ahern, TD, has announced that Ireland is today tabling a formal proposal requesting that official and working status be accorded to the Irish language in the European Union.


The decision to table the formal proposal follows the Government’s decision in July to initiate a process of discussions with the other EU Member States and EU Institutions in this regard.



In undertaking discussions on this sensitive matter, the Government has sought to identify the issues arising and the practical options open to it in pursuing the objective of obtaining official and working status for the Irish language.



In effect, the Government is proposing that certain key EU legislation (that adopted jointly by the Council and the European Parliament) would be translated into Irish. Under the proposal, the possibility of extending the range of documents to be translated into Irish would be the subject of a review to take place not later than four years after adoption of the current proposal.



“This proposal, if agreed by the Member States, would represent a significant positive and practical step forward for the Irish language in the EU,” said Minister Ahern.



The proposal requires the amendment of Regulation 1 of 1958, which governs the Union’s language regime, to include Irish as an official and working language of the Union. Amendment of this Regulation requires the unanimous approval of partners.

[dahamsta]

Perhaps their time and money might be better spent promoting the language at home. Then we might have a need for EU documents to be translated into Irish, which doesn't really exist atm...

adam

[SÓC]

Perhaps their time and money might be better spent promoting the language at home. Then we might have a need for EU documents to be translated into Irish, which doesn't really exist atm...

adam
eh?

There are c. 250k afaik that use Irish in everyday life. Why should these people be denied their constitutional right?
We are spend a good deal of money at home (finally). You can get most acts in Irish now (www.achtanna.ie (http://www.achtanna.ie)) and the Official Langauges Act has finally enforced what our constitution set out to do years ago. A lot of resources have been pumped into this in recent years.

[dahamsta]

There are c. 250k afaik that use Irish in everyday life.Where? Perhaps you're right but I find it very difficult to believe that 250,000 Irish people use Irish as their primary language, so I'd like to see stats. Even with that, 250k is 1/16th or 6.25% of the population, which brings me back to my original point: Wouldn't the time and money be better spent on promoting the language at home? Which would you prefer, access to documents that a miniscule percentage of people will read (in English, never mind in Irish), or more people speaking the language? Which do you feel is more practical?

adam

[wws]

I speak fluent Hector Irish - its mostly just english with a navan accent

wow - hector - what a fad that was

[$Leon$]

adam i think u have this one. how many people actually read this stuff in english any way? maybe as high as 1%. meaning that approz 0.0625% of irish people can't read eu documents in their first language but can instead read it in the language that they read everything else.
but at the root of this is the principle of it all. irish is our national language even though it is very rarely spoken.

[pineapple stu]

Think dahamsta's right there - have to promote Irish at home before there's any need to go wasting money translating thick legal documents which no-one's going to read in English, let alone Irish.

There are nowhere near 250000 Irish speakers in the country - even in the Gaeltacht, not everyone speaks Irish.

A much better way of doing something for the language was what I heard on the news there just last week - Harry Potter is being translated into Irish. There's something young people can read and foster an interest in the language. More of that sort of thing would be a much better use of money.

[Aberdonian Stu]

The 250k is quite accurate if looked from outside of business (ie in the home and with friends). There are swathes of Dubs who speak Irish in the home, from all sectors of society might I stress, that for obvious reasons don't use it at work and in the pub.

What most people neglect, probably because it was covered up by whatever eejit did it, is that the ONLY reason Irish doesn't have official status is a clerical error. It wasn't some big bad nasty government/EU policy. The error was actually made about eighteen months to two years before it when the government was asked if they wanted it and someone said no. That sounds conspiratorial until you realise that it wasn't noticed by anyone in or out of government until it was too late. The only reason I know is becasue a small number of initiatives/academic courses were told that they couldn't count English as part of a foreign language requirement (which in the course I was coming from was discriminatory although normally it's just common sense)unless the applicant was schooled at second level as gaeilge/spoke Irish at home/came from a designated Gaeltacht area. A postgrad course I considered going for required this, so I was fine as I fit the first option.

This is the one thing that no-one has brought up in the entire debate because only a small handful of people, both Irish and English speakers know about it.

[SÓC]

Where? Perhaps you're right but I find it very difficult to believe that 250,000 Irish people use Irish as their primary language
Ah I never said primary language. People who use it as their primary language is somewhere near 74,000 last I heard but Im open to correction. Just people who use it every day

I underestimated, way underestimated. The figure is actually 339,541 according to the 2002 census. (http://www.cso.ie/census/pdfs/vol11_entire.pdf page 54)

The Government is spending money here in putting Irish forward, finally. In Ó Cúiv we have a great Minister who actually cares and who words have carried force at the cabinet table. Look at the number of gaelscoileanna. Look at the sucess of TG4 and RnaG. The Official Languages Act in the most important piece of Language law in this counrty ever.

European statutes should IMO be available if the English ones are. Why would someone who speaks the State's first official language have to resort the English when the constituiton guarantees them their rights, rights the Supreme Court affirmed a few years ago.

[green goblin]

- even in the Gaeltacht, not everyone speaks Irish.


Mind you, you try rolling up there with an English accent, and you just watch 'em. :rolleyes:

[Macy]

What most people neglect, probably because it was covered up by whatever eejit did it, is that the ONLY reason Irish doesn't have official status is a clerical error. It wasn't some big bad nasty government/EU policy. The error was actually made about eighteen months to two years before it when the government was asked if they wanted it and someone said no.
I thought that it hasn't been an official EU language since we joined (seem to remember Conor blaming FG for it ;) ). It only came to light in the last while because of some stupid email campaign...


Look at the sucess of TG4 and RnaG.
Don't get me wrong, as I think TG4 is the best of the Irish stations, but a hell of a lot of it's content is english language, from documentaries to films.

[SÓC]

Don't get me wrong, as I think TG4 is the best of the Irish stations, but a hell of a lot of it's content is english language, from documentaries to films.
True but their mainstays of Hector, Ros Na Rún and Nuacht ar all as gaeilge. They haev a very decent Saturday Night Chat Show too. The Sport they do is in Irish too.

They have to use English language materials, there is just not enough material out there in Irish. They use it to fill the gaps and attract new viewers which IMO is fair enough.

RnaG dont allow any English which I think is a bit silly.

[dahamsta]

I don't want to be misunderstood here: I have no problem with promotion of the Irish language, in fact if anything I'm asking for more promotion here, not less. I wish I could speak the language properly myself and I hope that someday in the next few years I'll have the opportunity to do so. (Spanish first though, which comes back to practicality again.) However...


European statutes should IMO be available if the English ones are. Why would someone who speaks the State's first official language have to resort the English when the constituiton guarantees them their rights, rights the Supreme Court affirmed a few years ago....don't you feel that you're putting rights above practicality here? I'm all for rights as everyone here should well know, but exactly how many people will actually go and read those documents? I honestly couldn't see it being any higher than a couple of hundred, if that. Again, wouldn't the time and effort being put into this right now be better ploughed into promoting the language at home, adding to what's already being done? And come back to this particular issue at a later date, when these initiatives are more successful?

Fighting for minorities is great, but surely a little balance is in order?

adam

[Macy]

Don't recall.

But as I blame FG for everything else, including the weather and the inavailability of King Crisps in most pubs, I may well have fired that one at them too... ;)
Sure it's okay as I held FF equally responsible as they backed the yes vote in the referendum - Labour, the true keepers of the Irish language, were against it... :D

[Aberdonian Stu]

Labour...the true keepers of the Irish language...give me a break! Just because they have more people with an interest in the arts doesn't mean they can claim that title. (Incidentally if you were being sarcastic I humbly apologise). If anything that should go against them as half te battle is trying to make it more than just an arty thing, which is a bit of a problem but that's a whole other debate that I truly couldn't be bothered getting involved in right now.

[Macy]

(Incidentally if you were being sarcastic I humbly apologise).
Apology accepted. tbh there's far more pressing concerns, and these kind of stories just distract attention away from them tbh (and imo). I just assume this has been used to bury the decentralisation fook up's from yesterday....

[Aberdonian Stu]

Well it's an odd way to bury it, O Neachtain was harping on about it for a few days builiding up to the announcement and the only ones picking up on it were TG4/Lá/Foinse and it seems to have only picked up momentum since the Euro elections. I'm not a big fan of his, but he seems to be the man that gave the government a kick up the rear end on the issue.

[SÓC]

However don't you feel that you're putting rights above practicality here? I'm all for rights as everyone here should well know, but exactly how many people will actually go and read those documents? I honestly couldn't see it being any higher than a couple of hundred, if that. Again, wouldn't the time and effort being put into this right now be better ploughed into promoting the language at home, adding to what's already being done? And come back to this particular issue at a later date, when these initiatives are more successful?

Fighting for minorities is great, but surely a little balance is in order?

adam
Thats grand if the Government was some form of business interest where funds would be diverted to one area or another if they were not used in a certain sector. That doesnt tend to work with public money in my experience of the Civil Service/State Bodies.

Lets just say the translation of the Euro statutes costs €100. The Government are spending €400 on Irish Language promotion. IF you decided not to go ahead with the Euro translation that €100 will not be sent to add to the €400. It'll be send back to the central coffers and most likely used to build a horse racing venue or the likes.

True not many people would read them but sure not many people read them in English. Not many lawyers/law students ever get round to them either:o . I just think if they are available in English they should also be available in Irish.

[dahamsta]

I knew this was coming next and I was going to try to preempt you, but it just would have confused the debate. It was either that or "but we'll be creating jobs," so I'll address that first, get it out of the way: Creating translation jobs for the sake of the aforementioned minuscule number of people that would actually read the documents would be a rough equivalent of setting a new street-cleaning standard that requires the pavements to be hoovered and buffed by hand. Sure, loads of jobs will be created, but seriously, let's be a bit realistic here. Now, moving on...


Thats grand if the Government was some form of business interest where funds would be diverted to one area or another if they were not used in a certain sector. That doesnt tend to work with public money in my experience of the Civil Service/State Bodies.It doesn't, I agree with you.


Lets just say the translation of the Euro statutes costs €100.Or we could say that a pint of lager costs two shillings and sixpence. €100 per paragraph maybe...


True not many people would read them but sure not many people read them in English.(I did make that point earlier. It has about as much bearing in your post as it had in mine. :))


I just think if they are available in English they should also be available in Irish.As an idealist, I agree with you absolutely. In an ideal world these documents would be available in English, Irish, Ulster Scots, and possibly even Navajo (http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm). However the realist in me wins hands down on this occasion: This is a complete waste of time and money until such time as a lot more people are literate in Irish. A hell of a lot more people.

However I'll rephrase my "wouldn't the money be spent on the promotion of the language at home" comments, since we both agree that that won't happen by default. Try this: Wouldn't your time be better spent lobbying for promotion of the Irish language at home than lobbying for the translation of documents that will be read by a tiny minority of people? And if you were successful, and Irish wasn't assigned working status, wouldn't they have somewhere to pull that money from?*

You are lobbying aren't you? You have written to all of your TDs, MEPs and local councillors, and the Ministers responsible, and the Taoiseach, and the Opposition leaders and Shadow Ministers, and European Ministers, and respresentative organisations, and all of the media outlets?

(I'm being facetious of course, and I don't want an answer, because that's your business and none of mine. But of course if you really do want something, that's what you should be doing. Going to the polls is unfortunately just 1% of democracy. But I'm lecturing now, so I'll shut up.)

adam

*Again, this is a ridiculous assertion. I'm just making a point.

[pineapple stu]

I have no problem with promotion of the Irish language, in fact if anything I'm asking for more promotion here, not less.

Hé - cad mar gheall ar fórum Gaeilge ar foot.ie? Ansin beimis in ann Gaeilge a rá agus i nós na gaoithe beimis go léir ag caint le chéile i nGaeilge!

It sounds sad, but I honestly reckon the best chance Irish has to survive is by translating the Harry Potters, Agatha Christies, Douglas Adamses, etc., into Irish and encouraging a new generation to read Irish. I can speak Irish, but can hardly read a word. Reading Irish at a young age is the briegd between learning Irish in Junior Infants and speaking it fluently in adult life. It's been neglected for ages and it's great to see it being addressed at last. Maybe in 100 or 200 years, we can have a decent percentage speaking Irish. But I can't see it happening before that...

[dahamsta]

Hé - cad mar gheall ar fórum Gaeilge ar foot.ie? Ansin beimis in ann Gaeilge a rá agus i nós na gaoithe beimis go léir ag caint le chéile i nGaeilge!I can only pick bits out of that now tbh. "Can we have an Irish forum on Foot.ie?" What's "gaoithe", wind? We have a lot of that around here anyway. ;)


It sounds sad, but I honestly reckon the best chance Irish has to survive is by translating the Harry Potters, Agatha Christies, Douglas Adamses, etc., into Irish and encouraging a new generation to read Irish.Can't see that working tbh, although it'd certainly be worth a try with a few books. I don't have an answer tbh, aside from letting marketroids loose on it and making it "cool". It sounds odd, but a good marketroid can make anything cool.


Maybe in 100 or 200 years, we can have a decent percentage speaking Irish. But I can't see it happening before that...If people in general embraced it we could probably do it in 5-15 years, but unfortunately that's pretty unlikely.

adam

[Poor Student]

Forgive me for saying but there is a reason we embraced English so fast in this country and the area of Irish speakers receded Westwards so rapidly and that is practicality. Look at the libraries of our great universities, packed from top to bottom with books in English. Irish is not a practical language as there is not a great deal of literature in the language. Anyone who would want to take a degree in anything would need English. The success of the English language is down to its wide bank of vocabulary and it adaptive nature. Notice than increasingly less used language in international spheres German and French are very stubborn in keeping out foreign words. English is replacing German in East and Central Europe as the language of business. Ireland cannot afford to go back. The fact we are an English speaking company also enables foreign companies to set up base here. It will not and cannot happen. Forgive me for being devil's advocate here language enthusiasts.

[noby]

While official recognision would be nice, it all comes down to one thing. Do you go home of an evening and talk some irish? listen to RnG? watch TG4? Politics and beaurocracy isn't going to save the language. People using it will.

As pineapple stu said, I can string a conversation together, in my own pigeon irish, but reading and writing is a different matter. But that's the way it has to be for the language to develop.

[Macy]

Do you go home of an evening and talk some irish? listen to RnG? watch TG4?
I watch Survivor and Oz if that's any help? :D

[noby]

I watch Survivor and Oz if that's any help? :D

Somehow I had a feeling that might be said. Is survivor still narrated in irish. Maybe you're learning unknown to yourself. You could be fluent, but just haven't realised it yet.

[Macy]

Somehow I had a feeling that might be said. Is survivor still narrated in irish. Maybe you're learning unknown to yourself. You could be fluent, but just haven't realised it yet.
I'm predictably predictable :D

I have only a few words of Irish, not having been schooled here (not that that makes much of a difference).

[SÓC]

Yea Adam tbh I see where you are coming from just something I take issue with. Then again Im biased. I worked in translating statues in Dublin and my God was it easy and well paid. Anyone who has a degree in Irish and who wants and easy life should apply:D www.publicjobs.ie (http://www.publicjobs.ie) . Applies to translation in general really. Those who can should!

I have spoken to MEP's, TDs and Udaras Reps about Gaeilge, dont know in reality what impact it had. I did get a few replies pointing to the enactment of the Official Languages Act which is in fairness a balanced piece of law IMO.

Look I want a cushie number sipping Hoergaarden in Brussels and flying home for every City match and doing my week's work in about 3 hours, being paid silly moeny to do so. Is that too much to ask?:p



I watch Survivor and Oz if that's any help? :D
even more OT but...was last nights show the last ever?? Though it was a weak ending.

[Poor Student]

Yea Adam tbh I see where you are coming from just something I take issue with. Then again Im biased. I worked in translating statues in Dublin and my God was it easy and well paid. Anyone who has a degree in Irish and who wants and easy life should apply:D www.publicjobs.ie (http://www.publicjobs.ie) . Applies to translation in general really. Those who can should!

I have spoken to MEP's, TDs and Udaras Reps about Gaeilge, dont know in reality what impact it had. I did get a few replies pointing to the enactment of the Official Languages Act which is in fairness a balanced piece of law IMO.

Look I want a cushie number sipping Hoergaarden in Brussels and flying home for every City match and doing my week's work in about 3 hours, being paid silly moeny to do so. Is that too much to ask?:p



even more OT but...was last nights show the last ever?? Though it was a weak ending.

That's exactly what ****es me off about these translators. It's ****ing money away. I knew of someone who got away with tanslating Serbian into Bosnian, Croatian and Montenegran for a while for the UN, all the same language.

[dahamsta]

SÓC, I received a PM this morning that disagreed with you on the ease with which these docs could be translated, specifically an organisation with it's own in-house Irish department that didn't feel it was qualified to translate documents, which will now have to be sent to another location at extra cost. I don't know what those documents were, but of course it wouldn't just be statutes in this case anyway, it would be everything. I find it difficult to believe that translating complex legal and otherwise specialist documents would be all that easy. Not that it has much of a bearing, for the reasons I stated above.

I realise that you're being facetious with the comments about wanting a cushy number, but you still have a vested interest here; one that I certainly would have mentioned earlier if I had been in the same position. A bit Oirish that, no offense.

adam

[green goblin]

...As an idealist, I agree with you absolutely. In an ideal world these documents would be available in English, Irish, Ulster Scots, and possibly even Navajo. However the realist in me wins hands down on this occasion: This is a complete waste of time and money until such time as a lot more people are literate in Irish. A hell of a lot more people.


Fair play to you, though, for hanging on to the idealist in you. "Until such time" is right. Yes, it's Eurobolloeux and a waste of money, but if other people want to acknowledge us, shouldn't we just let them?
I'm quite ashmed I know next to no Irish. Not my fault, I know that, but even so...

[SÓC]

SÓC, I received a PM this morning that disagreed with you on the ease with which these docs could be translated, specifically an organisation with it's own in-house Irish department that didn't feel it was qualified to translate documents, which will now have to be sent to another location at extra cost. I don't know what those documents were, but of course it wouldn't just be statutes in this case anyway, it would be everything. I find it difficult to believe that translating complex legal and otherwise specialist documents would be all that easy. Not that it has much of a bearing, for the reasons I stated above.

I realise that you're being facetious with the comments about wanting a cushy number, but you still have a vested interest here; one that I certainly would have mentioned earlier if I had been in the same position. A bit Oirish that, no offense.

adam
Era to be fair this was always the stand point I took before I ever started translating for cash. I've been fiarly active in Irish Language interest groups for a number of years. Foot.ie is hardly a Dáil Public Accounts Committee:D
My work in translation actually came from my interest in such rights rather than the other way around.

In Ireland we dont translate secondary legislation (Ministerial Orders etc). Only primary legislation (Acts) which dont have much detail and use the same phrases all the time. A lot of it is copy and paste. The hard work is in the actual Irish grammer that you have to use when you change various words, keeping the Irish uniform and of course understanding the legal meaning of specific words in Irish and English. When working in Wales I did some basic translating without being able to speak a word of the language becuase of the nature of the legal language used.

Translating other documents which are 'stand alone' pieces can be a serious minefield depending on the subject matter of the work. I was speaking to a dentist who had to translate tender forms for a new unit which I would hate to do.

[dahamsta]

That's what I mean, legal terms can be an absolute minefield, even in English. As an example, I was reading EDRI's newsletter last night which discussed legislation (http://www.edri.org/edrigram/number2.22/takedown) that had to be modified after a storm of protest pointed out that "apparently unlawful" is drastically different from "manifestly unlawful". It's just one word, but people's lives have relied on one word in legal definitions. Constitutional arguments invariably come down to this kind of thing, America is rife with cases about "(programming) code as speech" and suchlike.

Anyway, I think we've gone as far as we can with this. :)

adam

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well let me put my cards on the table, I believe that without our traditional music, dance and language we may as well burn our passports and ask the Brits to come back and govern us. All of the above is what makes us Irish and an independent people, nation etc.

Having said all that one way to make soccer fans in this country or more to thepoint EL fans better at Gaeilge would be if TG4 covered the Eircom League.
They did an excellent job a few years back on La Liga. So why not EL?

The First Division could be covered easily as well as TG4 covering events in its own heartland if Galway United home games were covered. The only club located in the Gaeltacht on Gaeltacht TV. Apt don't you think?

Tar éis cúpla séasúra beidh Gaeilge liofa ag na lucht féachanta don chlár seo.

[SÓC]

Having said all that one way to make soccer fans in this country or more to thepoint EL fans better at Gaeilge would be if TG4 covered the Eircom League.
They did an excellent job a few years back on La Liga. So why not EL?

The First Division could be covered easily as well as TG4 covering events in its own heartland if Galway United home games were covered. The only club located in the Gaeltacht on Gaeltacht TV. Apt don't you think?

Tar éis cúpla séasúra beidh Gaeilge liofa ag na lucht féachanta don chlár seo.
Well a fair few clubs have Gaelteachts in their county. Finn Harps, Cork City, Galway, Waterford. Drogs have one nearby, as do Derry. For some reason most of the Dublin Irish speakers I know follow Rovers. UCD also have obvious links.

Only problem is the TG4 Sports Department comprises of one person! they use a company in Waterford called Nemeton who have very limited resources

[Poor Student]

Well let me put my cards on the table, I believe that without our traditional music, dance and language we may as well burn our passports and ask the Brits to come back and govern us. All of the above is what makes us Irish and an independent people, nation etc.



I take it that's some exagguration for effect but that is a terribly narrow definition of the Irish nation.

[CollegeTillIDie]

I take it that's some exagguration for effect but that is a terribly narrow definition of the Irish nation.

Poor Student
Can you give me something else that makes us unique?
Hundreds of years of foreign domination? No I can name at least 40 other European countries that share that franchise, not to mention North and South America, Africa and large parts of Asia.

Our climate? No we share that with one of the islands of New Zealand, British COlumbia and the State of Washington in the USA.... so what else is there?

[CollegeTillIDie]

Forgive me for saying but there is a reason we embraced English so fast in this country and the area of Irish speakers receded Westwards so rapidly and that is practicality. Look at the libraries of our great universities, packed from top to bottom with books in English. Irish is not a practical language as there is not a great deal of literature in the language. Anyone who would want to take a degree in anything would need English. The success of the English language is down to its wide bank of vocabulary and it adaptive nature. Notice than increasingly less used language in international spheres German and French are very stubborn in keeping out foreign words. English is replacing German in East and Central Europe as the language of business. Ireland cannot afford to go back. The fact we are an English speaking company also enables foreign companies to set up base here. It will not and cannot happen. Forgive me for being devil's advocate here language enthusiasts.

The Bubonic plague spread like wildfire in the Middle Ages that does not necessarily make it a good thing... again an exaggeration for effect ;)

[Aberdonian Stu]

Right...

With regards to translation anyone who's done an Irish degree has probably read Mac Grianna's book about a year in his life and how he hated doing translation work for An Gúm, to be more precise he considered it false. It would be fair to say that getting a translation job is not exactly the top priority for most Irish speakers looking for official status.

Secondly as regards TG4 remember it was the league who botched it up because they cited the exact reasons CollegetilIdie gave for covering it. TG4 don't see themselves as a Gaeltacht station and want to cover the country on a wider scale than that, when the FAI/League ran the idea by them they found it insulting and effectively told them to get stuffed.

[pineapple stu]

Forgive me for saying but there is a reason we embraced English so fast in this country and the area of Irish speakers receded Westwards so rapidly and that is practicality.

Have to disagree. The reason we embraced the language so fast is because Irish was literally beaten out of kids at school.


Ireland cannot afford to go back. The fact we are an English speaking company also enables foreign companies to set up base here.

Again, have to disagree. Dutch, for example, very much a minority language in the greater scheme of things, is thriving - because everyone can speak English there, but they have their own language as well. There's no reason, hypothetically, that we can't speak Irish in day-to-day activities and speak English if conducting business deals with a foreign party.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Have to disagree. The reason we embraced the language so fast is because Irish was literally beaten out of kids at school..
There is a lot of truth in the above assertion. I was not one of those kids, with the result that I still love the language and despite not beginning to learn the language formally till the age of 9, we lived overseas for 6 years before that, I got honours Irish in the Leaving Certificate.


Again, have to disagree. Dutch, for example, very much a minority language in the greater scheme of things, is thriving - because everyone can speak English there, but they have their own language as well. There's no reason, hypothetically, that we can't speak Irish in day-to-day activities and speak English if conducting business deals with a foreign party.
Quite right pineapple stu. Dutch is only spoken in Holland , Northern Belgium and a dialect of it is spoken by Afrikaaners in South Africa.

[pineapple stu]

There is a lot of truth in the above assertion. I was not one of those kids, with the result that I still love the language and despite not beginning to learn the language formally till the age of 9, we lived overseas for 6 years before that, I got honours Irish in the Leaving Certificate.

I meant back in the 17th/18th century - I wasn't alleging you to be that old!

On an aside - though it kind of ties in with this thread - I was heading down to Kilkenny to play a chess tournament at the weekend and the bus passed by a couple of signs for Newbridge. The signs had "Droichead Nua" obviously, but the "Newbridge" had been covered up with black masking tape. I've also often seen Newbridge referred to as just "Droichead Nua" on maps. What's the story with that? Is the town ditching its English name (which I think is a great idea, and I reckon it should be extended to the counties, but that's yet another thread...) or is there another explanation?

[CollegeTillIDie]

I meant back in the 17th/18th century - I wasn't alleging you to be that old!

On an aside - though it kind of ties in with this thread - I was heading down to Kilkenny to play a chess tournament at the weekend and the bus passed by a couple of signs for Newbridge. The signs had "Droichead Nua" obviously, but the "Newbridge" had been covered up with black masking tape. I've also often seen Newbridge referred to as just "Droichead Nua" on maps. What's the story with that? Is the town ditching its English name (which I think is a great idea, and I reckon it should be extended to the counties, but that's yet another thread...) or is there another explanation?

Ceannanus Mór instead of Kells is a similar phenomenon. :p

[CollegeTillIDie]

I meant back in the 17th/18th century - I wasn't alleging you to be that old!

pineapple stu... I think you will find 2 million people dying between 1845 and 1847 and 1 million emigrating probably was a greater cause as the majority of those were from the West of Ireland which was primarily a Gaeltacht in the 1840's. ;)

[pineapple stu]

pineapple stu... I think you will find 2 million people dying between 1845 and 1847 and 1 million emigrating probably was a greater cause as the majority of those were from the West of Ireland which was primarily a Gaeltacht in the 1840's. ;)

Yeah, but I think (think, mind! I'm open to correction) a lot of schools back then were taken over by the English, who used to beat kids for talking in Irish...heard that in school, I'm almost sure. Back in the 1840s, about half the population still spoke Irish, but you're right, the famine did a lot to damage the language as well. Don't know how the two aren't mutually exclusive - maybe it's just the Irish way of being subjugated by foreigners who don't care for our way of doing things and then just ignoring them...bit like the metric system now...! :p

[$Leon$]

Ceannanus Mór instead of Kells is a similar phenomenon. :p


i think (open to cooection) that kells has only become officialy become kells in the last few years (5-10) and that up until that it was ceannanus mor. navan aslo appears on alot of maps as an uaimh. not sure is there a similar reason.
personally i'd be all in favour of renaming every place with its irish name

[TheJamaicanP.M.]

i think (open to cooection) that kells has only become officialy become kells in the last few years (5-10) and that up until that it was ceannanus mor. navan aslo appears on alot of maps as an uaimh. not sure is there a similar reason.
personally i'd be all in favour of renaming every place with its irish name

If we were to rename every place with its Irish name, I think you would be in serious need of Irish grinds from your old mentor Jimmo. It would be a chance for you to rekindle your old flame with the shoenator. :D :D

[$Leon$]

If we were to rename every place with its Irish name, I think you would be in serious need of Irish grinds from your old mentor Jimmo. It would be a chance for you to rekindle your old flame with the shoenator. :D :D

well if that would be required keep all the english names and call the hun$ back

[Aberdonian Stu]

Well I'm a fluent Irish speaker from Dunlaoghaire and I have to say I'm wary of renaming places by their Irish name. The Irish name Dún Laoghaire has been hijacked by certain sections to try and make the place more "presentable" something that I find personally offensive and it is effectively there to hide the facr that it's been neglected. The pronounciation as Gaeilge makes it sound posher and RTE are just one of the culprits. Incidentally this also ignores that Dún Laoire is now the accepted spelling in Modern Iris, which is probably because that spelling hasn't enough airs and graces about it. Bizarre but true.

[green goblin]

You may take my music, my dance and my language, but you'll never take my EU friendly standardised Passport...

As 2g Irish, I loved my old Irish passport. It meant more than I can say to have something official with your name and photgraph on it that was green with harps on rather than blue with crowns on :( . :o .

[crc]

I think Irish and the eL share some of the same problems. Let me explain:

I'm a bit of a language enthusiast - I speak good French, some Italian and Dutch, and a few words in German, Spanish, Catalan, and I'm even trying to learn Japanese at the moment. However, even though I learned Irish at school (in the north, and got an A at GCSE) I have a lot of difficulty witht he language now.

The reason for learning (bits) of all those languages has generally been because I have been immersed in their environments - this makes it so much easier to pick up the language, because what you already know is constantly being reinforced. This is not the case with Irish, English is everywhere you look. This is why the official languages act is a good thing, we will begin to see Irish all around us in our everyday lives.

In Quebec, they passed a language law requiring that English not have greater prominence than French on all signs in public. This has the effect that French is constantly in public view. Such measures can be criticised as draconian, but I am in favour of them because they are a very effective way to reinvigorate a language.

To make the link to the eL is easy. All the general public see in Ireland (football related) has to do with the English Premiership - it is in our papers, on our TV, on the internet. This abundance of positive reinforcement does not exist for either the eL or the Irish language.