Big story about a breakaway to form an All ireland league in the Star today

[Poor Student]

It's on the backpage and get a two page spread. The Derry City chairman says it being looked into to form a 16 team league and do it without the FAI or IFA. He seems to be quoted at length. Usually these breakway league stories never come to fruition though.

[dcfcsteve]

Interesting if it's coming from Jim Roddy, as he's had quite a bit of contact with Linfield and the Glens recently. Probably in regular contact with at least Institute as well...

Would be excellent if the FAI and IFA were left well out of any developments. Can only see them standing in the way of something like this.

Does their web site carry full stories ? If not, can anyone scan the article in - am dying to see it.

[RedX]

Derry have been testing the water recently with there friendlies against Irish league teams and the Setanta Cup is another test on the way..if the Setanta cup is a success there could be some truth in this..

[Poor Student]

Interesting if it's coming from Jim Roddy, as he's had quite a bit of contact with Linfield and the Glens recently. Probably in regular contact with at least Institute as well...

Would be excellent if the FAI and IFA were left well out of any developments. Can only see them standing in the way of something like this.

Does their web site carry full stories ? If not, can anyone scan the article in - am dying to see it.

Sorry, only read it at the shop when I was supposed to be working. :o He was very insistent on Irish football's inevitable death if this didn't happen. There was a quote about starting new and 'cutting away the bottom' which sadly I imagine includes us. It ended with a final quote something along the lines 'We won't be moving to the Irish league. Never. We'll play Glens and Linfield again but only in an All Ireland league'

[eoinh]

They would need to have the agreement of both the FAI and IFA for this as otherwise they would be banned by UEFA from all their competitions and they would not recognise any signings etc that would occur.

[Slash/ED]

We'd get an All Ireland league and dump the FAI out of the equation, it's like two birds with one stone! I might head out and get the Star now just to have a read, this is big news alright. I think they'll wait to see how the Setanta cup goes first so this is more of a longterm thing, it could certinaly be good.

I have to say though I think a 16 team league would be great but you couldn't just dump the rest. Have two first divisions, regionalised, one for the ROI and one for NI and have some kind of promotion/relegation. You'd need it to keep the interest in a 16 team league and to let other areas get a chance to get a premier team.

[Poor Student]

We'd get an All Ireland league and dump the FAI out of the equation, it's like two birds with one stone! I might head out and get the Star now just to have a read, this is big news alright. I think they'll wait to see how the Setanta cup goes first so this is more of a longterm thing, it could certinaly be good.

I have to say though I think a 16 team league would be great but you couldn't just dump the rest. Have two first divisions, regionalised, one for the ROI and one for NI and have some kind of promotion/relegation. You'd need it to keep the interest in a 16 team league and to let other areas get a chance to get a premier team.

Roddy said the Setanta Cup was too little too late. To cut the FAI out would be a dream if we could be administered by a competent or even semi-competent (even slightly competent!) organisation. Given that it would be a kind of symbolic cross border cooperation perhaps there would be some way of selling it to UEFA. Though such a thing could become very elitis like the EPL and Roddy seemed to give that air about it. He said it was ridiculous that Ireland (the island) with a population of 5.5m had 50 senior clubs. He kept talking of the likes of Shels and Linfield subsidising the others. His words, not mine.

[TonyD]

Yeah, had to laugh at how he claimed the other clubs in the league are living off Shels and Derry, how exactly did he work that one out? The idea of dumping the FAI and IFA sounds pie in the sky to me. For this simple reason. As stated above, UEFA are not going to grant European places to clubs in any new league unless it has the backing of the FAI. I just couldn't see them going against the FAI on this. No European spots would make the whole thing seem suddenly a lot less attractive I would have thought.

[dcfcsteve]

Was the English Premiership not a breakaway from the rest of the league ?

If all/the overwhelming majority of clubs North and South wanted this to happen, then it would. Both the FAI and IFA would be forced to just go along with it, or else look completely stupid and instantly become irrelevant. This is a non-issue - they couldn't stop it happening if the clubs wanted it.

[A face]

Was the English Premiership not a breakaway from the rest of the league ?

If all/the overwhelming majority of clubs North and South wanted this to happen, then it would. Both the FAI and IFA would be forced to just go along with it, or else look completely stupid and instantly become irrelevant. This is a non-issue - they couldn't stop it happening if the clubs wanted it.


Exactly .... if the FAI and IFA neglect their domestic leagues then it is their fault it'll kick them in the árse .... they'd have no say in the end. It would snow ball if it initially looked like the makings of a good league. It would be brilliant actually ... prefect result for the years on incompetence.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Was the English Premiership not a breakaway from the rest of the league ?

If all/the overwhelming majority of clubs North and South wanted this to happen, then it would. Both the FAI and IFA would be forced to just go along with it, or else look completely stupid and instantly become irrelevant. This is a non-issue - they couldn't stop it happening if the clubs wanted it.

Yes but the FA ended up running it. If we have a breakaway League a new organisation made up of IFA/FAI would end up running it. Net result of which would be an All-Ireland international team. The downside would be fewer European club spots .

[Slash/ED]

Net result of which would be an All-Ireland international team.

I don't think so, Roddy says in the article that he can't ever see an all-ireland team forming.

By the way, anyone who can should go out and buy the paper for that article. He certainly isn't afraid to speak his mind and it's a very good read, he seems to be very ambitious about how good this league could be.

[CollegeTillIDie]

I don't think so, Roddy says in the article that he can't ever see an all-ireland team forming.

By the way, anyone who can should go out and buy the paper for that article. He certainly isn't afraid to speak his mind and it's a very good read, he seems to be very ambitious about how good this league could be.

If there is an all-Ireland league, there will be an All-Ireland team,whether Jim Roddy thinks so or not. It will be decided by FIFA and UEFA ;) and there really will be one game one association on the island of Ireland .

[Slash/ED]

If there is an all-Ireland league, there will be an All-Ireland team,whether Jim Roddy thinks so or not.

I really don't think so and hope not, as the resistence to an All Ireland team would be massive. To have a national team you have to run a domestic league so have regionalised first divisions, one run by the FAI for the ROI, one run by the IFA for the NI and they get to keep seperate national teams and we can have one all ireland league run by a seperate body. With a bit of co-operation I don't see why it can't happen.

[harry crumb]

I think this is the only way to go. The FAI have failed the league for too long and it just frustrates me to see the lack of progress at times.

A body made up of all the clubs would be able to negotiate directly with the government. Also TV deals could be better organised.

[Éanna]

It is the only way to go. 16 team premier sounds perfect. Getting rid of the FAI would be an absolute dream if possible

[dcfcsteve]

If there is an all-Ireland league, there will be an All-Ireland team,whether Jim Roddy thinks so or not. It will be decided by FIFA and UEFA ;) and there really will be one game one association on the island of Ireland .

The idea that an all-island league would need a single Irish team, and therefore could never happen, is also a non-issue . As you say - at the end of the day it's down to FIFA/UEFA to decide. It's both highly feasible and perfectly likely that they would grant a special dispensation because of the political situation in Ireland. Especially if a single league was seen as part of the peace and reconciliation/'normalisation' process.

After all Derry City play in the Eicom League, even though they're based in the IFA's jurisdiction, because of a FIFA/UEFA dispensation. They've done dispensations before. I would put money on them doing another one here if the case was put to them.

Non-issue....

[dcfcsteve]

I don't think so, Roddy says in the article that he can't ever see an all-ireland team forming.

By the way, anyone who can should go out and buy the paper for that article. He certainly isn't afraid to speak his mind and it's a very good read, he seems to be very ambitious about how good this league could be.

Slash - could you scan a copy of the article in and post it up ? I'm gagging to read it...!!

Thanks.

[Slash/ED]

Slash - could you scan a copy of the article in and post it up ? I'm gagging to read it...!!

Thanks.

I would but I've no scanner, I'll ask a few people tomorrow if they have one that I could use and see what I can do.

[thejollyrodger]

Im all for the development of soccer on this island but i wonder how 1 league is going to bring it on ?

The clubs up north are worse than the clubs down south. none of them are full time professional. Not much competition there.

One league means a lot less European places so why stop that ?

One league equals one national team and one FA. The nordies are going to want to have to melt into one association. There isnt much to gain from having a few extra N.I players. Where is there advantage there.

I think the Sentanta cup is probably one of the best ideas. I would increase the prize money and TV coverage. That would really help the clubs without any of the draw backs.

[Slash/ED]

none of them are full time professional.

The plan is the boost the extra sponorship and hopefully bigger crowds and TV revenue would bring would be enough for all 16 teams to be full time.

[Éanna]

It's both highly feasible and perfectly likely that they would grant a special dispensation because of the political situation in Ireland. Especially if a single league was seen as part of the peace and reconciliation/'normalisation' process.
I think you might well be right there.

[dcfcsteve]

Whilst I'm at it, the idea that a single league would mean less European places is also a COMPLETE RED HERRING !!

Each jurisdiction currently has 4 European slots - Champs League, UEFA x 2 and Inter-toto. That's a total of 8 Euro slots shared between the 2.

If there was a single league on this island - in straight-forward numerical terms those 8 slots would get reduced to 4, so yes - there would be less European slots available for the island of Ireland. But in reality it wouldn't change a single thing.

There aren't 8 European slots available to any one team in Ireland - just 1 out of 4 slots, regardless of which league a team plays in. Under an all-island league, every team would still be playing for 1 of 4 European slots. Therefore, teams would NOT be worse off with regards to European entry - they'd be in the same boat they are now, with the same number of chances of European qualification. No-one would be worse off in terms of qualification opportunities.

You could argue that bringing in Northern teams would increase the competition for those 4 Euro slots and make it harder for Southern teams to qualify, and vice-versa. But that arguement could also be used against the change to a 12-team Eircom Premier Division, the 1985 expansion of the League of Ireland, the recent major expansion of the Irish League etc etc. They all increased competition for European slots, either immediately (bigger qualifying division) or in the longer term (a larger number of clubs looking for the same number of slots). And a fear of increased competition is nothing more than an excuse in favour of maintaining the mediocrity of football in Ireland. If our teams were worried about not being the best in Ireland, what chance would we have in Europe....?

European slots are therefore a complete non-issue....

[Éanna]

i reckon, UEFA could even be encouraged to throw an extra place in the UEFA cup in in the spirit of the peace process etc. it would certainly be an argument worth making

[jimhacker]

Mr Roddy is, I think, stirring it a little bit - and that's no harm!

And isn't it nice that the league has a Roddy with brain engaged to counterbalance the other one!

[pineapple stu]

There aren't 8 European slots available to any one team in Ireland - just 1 out of 4 slots, regardless of which league a team plays in. Under an all-island league, every team would still be playing for 1 of 4 European slots. Therefore, teams would NOT be worse off with regards to European entry - they'd be in the same boat they are now, with the same number of chances of European qualification. No-one would be worse off in terms of qualification opportunities.

Some rather judicious maths there! Currently there are 16 Premier Division teams in the North and 12 in the South going for 8 places - so of those 28 teams, 28.6% would get European spots (assuming no First Division teams win the Cup).

Under the new system, those 28 teams would still be in the league - whether at Premier or First Division level - and there would now only be four places. So quite clearly, your chances of qualifying for Europe have halved. This is of course assuming that the quality of the two leagues are the same, which is another debate!


Surely, though, the desire to get rid of the FAI is a moot point? The eL was up till recently effectively self-governing until the two bodies merged, so for all the FAI's incompetence, they haven't had much of a hands-on with regard the league in recent years? Or am I reading that wrong?

[dcfcsteve]

Mr Roddy is, I think, stirring it a little bit - and that's no harm!

And isn't it nice that the league has a Roddy with brain engaged to counterbalance the other one!

Jaysus - you'd need Stephen Hawkings to counteract Shawoddy-Roddy... :D

[kevincronin2000]

Read a very interesting article on th e star this sunday about clubs talking about braking away from the el and irish leauges and forming an all ireland leauge, clubs that had disscussions were Cork City, Derry City, Glentoran, Linfield and Shelbourne. They rekon it can go ahead with or without the backing of yhe ifa / fai. its defo worth a read. Prob had the best el coverage of all the sunday papers aswell.

[Ruairi]

i'llmove it, some other mod will have to merge it

[Éanna]

i'llmove it, some other mod will have to merge it
no need. :p threads merged

[sadloserkid]

Happily it ain't gonna happen because if there's only 16 teams gonna be involved then the rest aren't gonna come on board. There's 22 league teams here and aren't there three divisions in the North now? None of the clubs who fail to make Jim Roddy's (Ireland's own Peter Ridsdale) cut will support this idea. Have a truly national league by all means but structure it properly. Or is Roddy worries that Derry might get relegated and miss out on his cash-cow then?

[paudie]

Have thought for ages that an All Ireland league is the only way for football to develop north and south.

Island is too small for 2 pro/semi pro leagues.

Wouldn't agree with a breakaway league though. you have to have promotion and relegation or the whole things will stagnate.

FAI and IFA will have be onside as well or else no UEFA competition places will be available and that would make it a nonrunner and can't see them supporting a league with no relegation.

Fair dues to Roddy though. Derry are in a unique position and he seems to be using it to foster good relations with the big clubs up North and suss out proposals such as this one.

I see Derry played Institute in a friendly a couple of weeks ago, are playing Glentoran tommorrow night and will play Linfield soon as well. The Linfield chairman was at a match in the Brandywell recently to finalise arrangemtns for the friendly.

[dcfcsteve]

Happily it ain't gonna happen because if there's only 16 teams gonna be involved then the rest aren't gonna come on board. There's 22 league teams here and aren't there three divisions in the North now? None of the clubs who fail to make Jim Roddy's (Ireland's own Peter Ridsdale) cut will support this idea. Have a truly national league by all means but structure it properly. Or is Roddy worries that Derry might get relegated and miss out on his cash-cow then?

Too right - let's keep 2 relatively weak leagues separate, supporting lots of teams with no fan-base, history, or genuine hopes of progression. Heaven forbid we might have to make the choice between creating a stronger future for football - and, arguably, peace - on this island and weeding out the likes of Harland & Wolf Welders, Monaghan United, Coagh United and Dublin City. Down with this sort of thing....!

Please SadLoser- don't knock Jim Roddy for showing common sense and vision. Anyone with any sense who's involved in football in this island knows an all-island league is our best chance of making football meaningful in Ireland in the face of competition from European football and other sports in Ireland. There's currently FIFTY (50) senior football teams North and South, in a country of only 5.5m people, which is completely absurd. Some teams will have to be shuffled into footballing retirement homes for the greater good of the game on these shores, it's as simple as that.

And given Derry's performances in the second half of this season, and the fact that we finished 6th in the strongest league on the island, I don't think Jim has much to worry about on relegation... :o)

Not being a bit parochial in your concern for Limerick, are you....?

[dcfcsteve]

Read a very interesting article on th e star this sunday about clubs talking about braking away from the el and irish leauges and forming an all ireland leauge, clubs that had disscussions were Cork City, Derry City, Glentoran, Linfield and Shelbourne. They rekon it can go ahead with or without the backing of yhe ifa / fai. its defo worth a read. Prob had the best el coverage of all the sunday papers aswell.

Kevin - please, please, please could you scan-in a copy of the article and post it up here. I'm dying to read it.

I'll let you sleep with my sister...... :D

[patsh]

SLK, don't you think an all-Ireland league would be better for Limerick?

Given the size of Limerick, a team would almost certainly be represented from there and the increased profile/importance of this league would get the crowds back for a Limerick team, wouldn't it?

[noby]

SLK, don't you think an all-Ireland league would be better for Limerick?

Given the size of Limerick, a team would almost certainly be represented from there and the increased profile/importance of this league would get the crowds back for a Limerick team, wouldn't it?


So a team that came 22nd of 22 teams gets into an all-Ireland 16 team league?
We're basically talking franchises in all the major population centre so. Not something I would be too keen on.



There's currently FIFTY (50) senior football teams North and South, in a country of only 5.5m people

Well, less than half come from a population of 4million, so the imbalance seems to be coming from the north.

[patsh]

So a team that came 22nd of 22 teams gets into an all-Ireland 16 team league?
We're basically talking franchises in all the major population centre so. Not something I would be too keen on.Limerick may not necessarily get into the league straight away, but given that attendances would surely go up on the basis of heightened interest, (I would think), then there is enough of a population there to ensure attendances which would earn the club enough money to get into the top 16.

[dcfcsteve]

So a team that came 22nd of 22 teams gets into an all-Ireland 16 team league?
We're basically talking franchises in all the major population centre so. Not something I would be too keen on.




Well, less than half come from a population of 4million, so the imbalance seems to be coming from the north.

You're right on both things you say. An all-island league would need to somehow select teams on the basis of footballing acumen, infrastructure and location. There'd be no point having only Dublin or Belfast teams in it, but likewise there'd be no point having a club with no fans in the middle of nowhere (Coagh United) taking the place of a team in a large population centre that therefore has genuine potential (Limerick), but just happens to be performing worse at the moment.

The top 8 or 10 teams would be fairly obvious to all, but beywond that how do you choose ? Without some outrageously complicated play-off series to determine who really are the Top 16 teams in Ireland, I can't see any way of selecting teams that wouldn't involve a degree of subjectivity on what a certain team would add to the new league.

If both leagues had amicably agreed on the first 15 teams and were left to choose between UCD, Dublin City, Bray Wanderers, Limavady United, Coleraine, or Harland & Wolf Welders for the 16th slot, who would you chose and why.....? Or more importantly, who would you NOT chose and why...?

[sadloserkid]

Too right - let's keep 2 relatively weak leagues separate, supporting lots of teams with no fan-base, history, or genuine hopes of progression. Heaven forbid we might have to make the choice between creating a stronger future for football - and, arguably, peace - on this island and weeding out the likes of Harland & Wolf Welders, Monaghan United, Coagh United and Dublin City. Down with this sort of thing....!

Please SadLoser- don't knock Jim Roddy for showing common sense and vision. Anyone with any sense who's involved in football in this island knows an all-island league is our best chance of making football meaningful in Ireland in the face of competition from European football and other sports in Ireland. There's currently FIFTY (50) senior football teams North and South, in a country of only 5.5m people, which is completely absurd. Some teams will have to be shuffled into footballing retirement homes for the greater good of the game on these shores, it's as simple as that.

And given Derry's performances in the second half of this season, and the fact that we finished 6th in the strongest league on the island, I don't think Jim has much to worry about on relegation... :o)

Not being a bit parochial in your concern for Limerick, are you....?

Yes Shels and Cork City both showed the lack of progress being made with their European progress this year. :rolleyes: The only club in the eircom League who would benefit from this are Derry City because of the reduced cost of transport and travel for them. Where this idea that the armchair brigade would come out overnight to support the eircom League comes from baffles me. There's nothing to suggest that people who are currently giving their local team a miss will get excited about Waterford United Vs Glenavon or whatever. I'm not opposed to the idea as long as it's done properly but to set up one 16 team league will allow the weaker teams to stagnate much like clubs can do now in the eircom League. Kilkenny City and yes, Limerick are two examples of clubs who are just treading water and should have been relegated and replaced years ago. A single 16 team division with no promotion or relegation will only allow the same thing to happen again. Accuse me of looking out for Limerick if you like but Jim Roddy's 'common sense and vision' is designed to encompass the Brandywell and the Brandywell only. If there are other benefits to be shared out that's only a happy coincidence.

I like the idea of an All-Ireland league to be honest but to limit it to 16 teams is a complete non-starter. It makes no sense at all not to have regionalised first divisions underneath this to encourage growth. If a mere 16 teams are represented at a senior level of football in this country what happens to the vast, unrepresented swathes that will be left out? How in God's name will it help football to develop if probably somewhere in the region of 10 towns are going to be present in this new order of things (Dublin & Belfast I presume will have a few clubs)? All this is at the moment is opportunism from the elite and it stinks. Not a bad idea in a general sense but for crying out loud try and bring the rest of us with you to Jim Roddy's promised land of Champions' League victories and international acclaim! ;)

[Slash/ED]

I like the idea of an All-Ireland league to be honest but to limit it to 16 teams is a complete non-starter. It makes no sense at all not to have regionalised first divisions underneath this to encourage growth.

I agree with that much, regionalised first divisions is the way to go imo, the rest of the idea is a good one.

I asked about a scanner but no luck, hopefully someone else can scan it for you Steve

[Longfordian]

And given Derry's performances in the second half of this season, and the fact that we finished 6th in the strongest league on the island, I don't think Jim has much to worry about on relegation... :o)

Actually, you havent finished 6th yet, all we need is a point tonight to finish above ye in 6th..not that it really matters of course bu still just to be factually correct.. :)

[dcfcsteve]

There would obviously need to be some format for promotion and relegation to and from an all-island league 'Premier Division', or else it would be stale and self-defeating. No-one is talking about it being a closed shop.

There's 34 other senior clubs - some of whom have very good facilities and would fall just short of inclusion in the country's top 16, so there would obviously have to be some sort of structure including most of these underneath the all-island league. I still argue strongly that some of the weaker clubs - mostly the two-bit ones in the North introduced in the last couple of years - would need to be weeded-out from even that secondary structure, and back down to Junior football where they were only a handful of years ago.

And SLK - to be fair, I think you're being far too cynical about Jim Roddy's motives. Just because our club happens to be based in Derry, does that instantly mean that we can't be motivated in this by anything other than self-interest ? Finn Harps, Monaghan and arguably Dundalk would also benefit hugely from an all-island league in terms of travel costs. Would they be equally guilty of self-interest if the idea progressed and they also come on board with it....?

[Schumi]

I still argue strongly that some of the weaker clubs - mostly the two-bit ones in the North introduced in the last couple of years - would need to be weeded-out from even that secondary structure, and back down to Junior football where they were only a handful of years ago.
If they're so weak, they'll drop away naturally to the NI 2nd division (or whatever is in place below the top regionalised tier) where they won't do anyone any harm.

[brandy86]

I have just scanned in the article, anyone who wants to read it can do so HERE!!!! (http://www.geocities.com/temp_store2000/irish_star.htm)

[Schumi]

Interesting read, thanks brandy86.

[dcfcsteve]

Thanks Brandy86. Good article - glad to see things are going on behind the scenes without the FAI getting their incompetent hands involved.

[Stevo Da Gull]

For some reason I think this -although a good idea- will never materialise.

What I would like to see is The Setanta, FAI Cup and the IFA Cup(if that's what its called) all scrapped and replaced with a mixed organization Cup and the winner being guarenteed a UEFA Cup spot as well as s*it loads of cash.

What do ye think?

[dcfcsteve]

In reality, what's the difference between a regular cup involving all teams from both sides of the border and a league that does the same ?

If a league wouldn't work, why should a cup ? The same issues would be there regardless.

[thejollyrodger]

thanx brandy86 !

intresting read but I wouldn't take it as being what is actual going to happen. That tabloid is a rag at times.

I think having one all Ireland Cup is a great idea. That is something that would really work !! Having big prize money at the end like €500,000 for the winner and something smaller for whoever came second would really get the clubs attention.

Pratical issues such as travelling, loosing european places etc would be minimised.

[Slash/ED]

That tabloid is a rag at times.


That may be true, but the quotes are all quotes from Jim Roddy and he says everything. No matter where it appeared, there's alot in this story.