GAA to open Croker

[Macy]

To do this, the Government would have to declare that the rule was bigoted, and imply that the organisation itself was bigoted and sectarian, that's not going to fly in any constituency.
If they took this approach, I reckon the GAA would dig their heels in and fight it tooth and nail.
The Organisation is, the Government never would as it's too busy bending over the cabinet table taking it from behind from the GAA, Horsey Set and Doggie Fanciers...

Let the GAA dig in their heels, they'd soon back down when they'd be begging the Government to buy Croker off them to clear their debts (which they can't do on their own).

[boc123]

Bigoted and sectarian organisations shouldn't get grants and funding. So the Government should withhold all funding until the ban is lifted (for all GAA grounds) on this basis. They'd still have to agree terms for opening any ground up, but their last remaining bigotted rule would be gone.

I follow Irish soccer, have done since 1987 with Cork City, I still can't understand all this crap about the GAA. I love GAA as well. Why doesn't soccer sort it's own house out instead of constantly looking to the GAA to blame/cover up their own problems. The GAA owe soccer nothing. The problem lies with the soccer authorities not the GAA. Don't mind the funding, let the footie authorities fight their own corner and stop looking to blame someone else for their own success. I always have thought and I still do that it's pure jealousy of the GAA the leads to this opinion that they owe soccer something. They don't!!!!

[Macy]

I've said many times that it's mainly the Governments faults, however the GAA are still bigoted, as the ban only extends as far as sports that they perceive to be british and protestant. If any other organisation had a similar implied sectarianism it wouldn't get funding.

[Donal81]

Macy, I agree with you in relation to the hypocrisy of allowing the Special Olympics, Garth Brooks, Tina Turner, U2, etc into Croker but not professional sports. I think this comes back to sports competing against each other for attention and advertising, they don't want to allow soccer and rugby a massive piece of free advertising by allowing them to play in Croker. This move would give the FAI an enormous boost. While I don't think it's the friendliest approach in the world and certainly isn't helpful towards Irish sport as a whole, I think it's completely understandable.

[jbyrne]

.. I think this comes back to sports competing against each other for attention and advertising, they don't want to allow soccer and rugby a massive piece of free advertising by allowing them to play in Croker. This move would give the FAI an enormous boost. While I don't think it's the friendliest approach in the world and certainly isn't helpful towards Irish sport as a whole, I think it's completely understandable.

given the english premiership supporting nature of many football "supporters" in Ireland i'd say a major "home" Ireland championship qualifier in Manchester or Liverpool (when lansdowne is being rebuilt) would create far better exposure for football in Ireland than an Ireland match in croke park. just think of the publicity that having to move a home qualifier accross the water would have due to the scandal

also, the sporting publics backlash against the GAA for allowing (whether you consider it to be their fault or not) an Irish home qualifier to be played outside Ireland while an 80,000 stadium lies empty in Ireland would be a PR disaster for them. how could they continue to claim to be supporting all things Irish if they allowed a british football club make a load of cash from a "home" Irish qualifier??

[Donal81]

given the english premiership supporting nature of many football "supporters" in Ireland i'd say a major "home" Ireland championship qualifier in Manchester or Liverpool (when lansdowne is being rebuilt) would create far better exposure for football in Ireland than an Ireland match in croke park. just think of the publicity that having to move a home qualifier accross the water would have due to the scandal

also, the sporting publics backlash against the GAA for allowing (whether you consider it to be their fault or not) an Irish home qualifier to be played outside Ireland while an 80,000 stadium lies empty in Ireland would be a PR disaster for them. how could they continue to claim to be supporting all things Irish if they allowed a british football club make a load of cash from a "home" Irish qualifier??

I see your point but I don't think the GAA will be too concerned about PR when it comes to Croker. The media savvy hierarchy might be but it hasn't affected them so far and I can't see it affecting the grassroots. Remember, the GAA is nothing if not grassroots.

Just to clarify, I would love to see soccer in Croke Park and I wish that those against it in the GAA would reconsider but I'm not a GAA member. If I was a member of the GAA, an amateur organisation drenched in a revolutionary Irish history - look to Crossmaglen for a modern day example - I would not appreciate being told to open up the stadium that my organisation had built in order to cover for the inadequacies of another organisation which has somehow managed to let the last 15 years of unprecedented soccer wealth pass them by. The revolutionary part might be completely outdated but it's still there.

The combined salaries of the Irish starting XI could make a sizeable down payment on their own stadium. The 30 players who take the field in the All-Ireland are back in the bank/truck/farm etc on Monday morning. While soccer players have become coke-snorting, playboy millionaires, the original ethos of the GAA is at least still hanging around. The rich crowd then come to the amateurs because they can't build their own stadium. This isn't a concrete reason for not opening Croker but I can easily see why the GAA aren't exactly sympathetic to the FAI's 'plight'.

I don't think the GAA claims to represent all things Irish. I think they claim to represent the interests of Gaelic games, which they certainly do.

[jbyrne]

I don't think the GAA claims to represent all things Irish. I think they claim to represent the interests of Gaelic games, which they certainly do.

yes, but they also claim to support all things Irish... for example.... they only allow their playing gear etc. to be made in Ireland and while re-building Croke Park they insisted that Irish materials be used where at all possible etc. etc.
dont get me wrong, i support that kind of policy 100% but its because of that very policy that I cant see how they could let mega bucks in rent go to the coffers of a british football club and force many Irish supporters, who mostly also support the GAA, travel abroad to see their country play a "home" qualifier. blame who you like for the stadium mess football/rugby is in at the moment but it would be unbelieveable and in my opinion indefensable if the GAA didnt step in and help out.

[Donal81]

I cant see how they could let mega bucks in rent go to the coffers of a british football club and force many Irish supporters, who mostly also support the GAA, travel abroad to see their country play a "home" qualifier. blame who you like for the stadium mess football/rugby is in at the moment but it would be unbelieveable and in my opinion indefensable if the GAA didnt step in and help out.

From an Irish sporting perspective, it would be miserable, you're right, IMO. The GAA certainly aren't helping Irish soccer and your point that it would also undermine their pride in Irishness and nationalism is spot on. I suppose, though, that your average GAA member who wants to keep Croker closed couldn't give a toss what the FAI does with its money and isn't thinking along your lines.

[1MickCollins]

blame who you like for the stadium mess football/rugby is in at the moment but it would be unbelieveable and in my opinion indefensable if the GAA didnt step in and help out.

So if Dunnes Stores gets into trouble you think Tesco should share their retail space with them? The GAA is in direct competition with soccer for not just bums on seats but kids in every parish in the country who are the future fans, the GAA has a huge competitive advantage over soccer, why would they risk that? The GAA owes nothing to the FAI and I don't think appeals to the national honour should or will have any effect. The FAI should use the GAA as a role model on good management and long term planning - basically the FAI has a better product, in how many school yards throughout the country do kids play football/hurling versus soccer - I think it is at least 95% soccer? Has the FAI made sufficient inroads into the GAA hegemony over the past 30 years?

[Cowboy]

So if Dunnes Stores gets into trouble you think Tesco should share their retail space with them?

As far as i'm aware neither Dunnes nor Tescos have received grants from the taxpayer

[Macy]

but not professional sports.
American Football, and all the Aussie's in that makey uppy game are pro (and that game is even robbing the GAA of talent!)

[gspain]

Public money paid for a significant portion of Croke Park.

The GAA can do what they like with it.

However if they choose to leave it lying empty while hundreds of millions of euro and hundreds of jobs are lost to this country when they could be renting it out and earning money that otherwise would go to the British economy then they should not get any more public money.

[monutdfc]

American Football, and all the Aussie's in that makey uppy game are pro (and that game is even robbing the GAA of talent!)
wasn't there a professional boxing match there too, decades ago?

[Donal81]

American Football, and all the Aussie's in that makey uppy game are pro (and that game is even robbing the GAA of talent!)

I meant games that the GAA directly competes with for attention and advertising. American Football doesn't, nor does boxing. International Rules is a showcase of the links between the two countries' games. To say that Aussie Rules is robbing the GAA of talent is exaggerating that particular situation. The GAA doesn't compete with Aussie Rules like, say, the Eircom League does with the Premier League, there are very few Irish players in Aussie Rules. My point was that I can understand why they don't want to help out professional sports against which they're competing.

[Dotsy]

Public money paid for a significant portion of Croke Park.

The GAA can do what they like with it.

However if they choose to leave it lying empty while hundreds of millions of euro and hundreds of jobs are lost to this country when they could be renting it out and earning money that otherwise would go to the British economy then they should not get any more public money.

Excellent point gspain. As far as I am concerned the GAA can get rid of rule 42 or not, it's their decision. They got previous funds from the goverment with no strings attached and fair play to them. However the situation has now arisen where the FAI will have to play their games in the UK for a couple of years because of the redevelopment of LR. THIs is a unique situation. Nobody is asking them to allow soccer and rugby to be played in CP indefinitely. If they don't want to do it then fine but why should the taxpayer effectively help pay down their debt (due to development of CP) when they choose to turn their nose up at the opportunity to raise some of these funds themselves by foregoing the rent and share of the gate receipts they would get from allowing soccer games at CP for a relatively short period of time. I don't buy this line that it will be the thin end of the wedge. If they remove rule 42 it will still be up to the GAA when and where they allow their grounds to be used for soccer or rugby. I don't think the government insisting that CP be opened up for these games in return for additional funding is any worse than the GAA saying that they will remove rule 42 if they get an additional €50m funding. Most people here supported O' Donoghue in his stance with the FAI over the advertising of the posts of CEO and CFO even though he himself stated it could affect some of the FAI's funding. If the government is putting public funds into a sports organisation it has a duty to ensure those funds are been used wisely. The same should apply to funding the GAA as it does to funding the FAI.

[Schumi]

The rich crowd then come to the amateurs because they can't build their own stadium.
If the GAA paid its players, it wouldn't have had the money to pay for Croke Park.

[Donal81]

If the GAA paid its players, it wouldn't have had the money to pay for Croke Park.

I'm not sure what your point is. The GAA should be forced to do something because it's lucky enough to be amateur? The FAI will never be able to build its own stadium because it represents a professional sport? The FAI doesn't pay its players either (unlike the IRFU, which has its own stadium) but has sat on a huge growth in interest in Irish soccer and growth in interest in soccer itself as well as growth in revenue from advertising, sponsorship, etc. The FA managed to do it. The French Football Association managed it. These are much bigger organisations and I'm sure they received government funding but the FAI has never gotten its act together over the years to get this going.

Again, I hope that international games don't go to England and I hope people in the GAA change their minds but telling them how wrong they are and how they have to do this and that isn't the way to go.

[Macy]

The FA isn't building the new wembley on their own - it's with Sports England, The Government plus lotto funding.

Half the cost was put up by the Government, plus they have tax breaks for years to come.

[Schumi]

My point is that it's far from co-incidental that the two large stadia in the country were built by amateur (at the time) organisations. Organisations that don't pay their most productive employees have, by definition, more money than those who do. The implication that a professional organisation should be in a better position to build a stadium is untrue.



The French Football Association managed it. The Stade De France was built by the French government wasn't it?

[Seamuslawless]

Apologies if this has been already mentioned in the thread, haven't been able to read the whole thing !

Does anyone know how the GAA got around rule 42 to allow american football to be played in Croke Park ? :confused:

[Donal81]

My point is that it's far from co-incidental that the two large stadia in the country were built by amateur (at the time) organisations. Organisations that don't pay their most productive employees have, by definition, more money than those who do. The implication that a professional organisation should be in a better position to build a stadium is untrue.


The Stade De France was built by the French government wasn't it?

If the Stade de France was built by the French government, I take it back, I assumed they were involved to some extent but not that much.

Unlike the IRFU, though, the FAI doesn't pay players, does it? The IRFU is making a loss because it pays the wages of all provincial players. The FAI doesn't do this. Instead, they have a gigantic organisation of committees and councils and clowns getting huge cheques for achieving little. The GAA and the IRFU are run like businesses (the IRFU makes a loss but this is part of a 10-year plan). If the FAI had been run like a business from the start and if someone had copped on to the obvious benefits of having a stadium, there would at least be some cash for that now and there would be an impressive organisation making an impressive plea to the government.

I feel that we're getting off the point, though. The GAA got their stadium not because they were an amateur organisation that had loads of money sitting around as a result but because they managed to lobby a government supportive of it.

I wish the GAA would open it but telling the GAA that they're wrong won't work.

[1MickCollins]

As far as i'm aware neither Dunnes nor Tescos have received grants from the taxpayer

You're obviously not an accountant :D :D

[1MickCollins]

FWISW

Rule 42: Uses of Property
(a) All property including grounds, Club
Houses, Halls, Dressing Rooms and
Handball Alleys owned or controlled by
units of the Association shall be used only
for the purpose of or in connection with
the playing of the Games controlled by
the Association, and for such other
purposes not in conflict with the Aims
and Objects of the Association, that may
be sanctioned from time to time by the
Central Council.
(b) Grounds controlled by Association units
shall not be used or permitted to be used,
for Horse Racing, Greyhound Racing, or
for Field Games other than those
sanctioned by Central Council.



The basic aims of the GAA strike me as being as wrothy now as they were 100 years ago, if not more so:

Basic Aim
The Association is a National organisation
which has as its basic aim the strengthening of
the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland
through the preservation and promotion of
Gaelic Games and pastimes.

National Games
The Association shall promote and control the
National games of Hurling, Gaelic Football,
Handball and Rounders, and such other games,
as may be sanctioned and approved by Annual
Congress.



I am a soccer fan and a hurling fan, I don't think that allowing soccer to be played in Croke Park is a sell-out as the Irish soccer team has given the nation more moments of emotional unity and sense of nationhood than any GAA match ever played. But I do hope the GAA continue to promote all aspects of Irish culture, it is too valuable too lose.

[Cowboy]

You're obviously not an accountant :D :D

No I'm not :D hope you have not offended all the accountants on here though :D If truth be known the grants went from Dunnes to the government (well one minister anyway)

[Superhoops]

wasn't there a professional boxing match there too, decades ago?

Mohammed Ali fought Al 'Blue' Lewis in CP in July 1972. Ali won in the 11th round. This fight was promoted by Butty Sugrue, a well known 'larger than life' character who hailed from Killorgin in Kerry and who was based in London.

[Superhoops]

Does anyone know how the GAA got around rule 42 to allow american football to be played in Croke Park ? :confused:

Have to assume that AF is not considered to be 'in conflict with the Aims and Objects of the Association', as Soccer and Rugby are.

[Macy]

Have to assume that AF is not considered to be 'in conflict with the Aims and Objects of the Association', as Soccer and Rugby are.
i.e. it wasn't (perceived as) British :rolleyes:

[fergalr]

National Games
The Association shall promote and control the
National games of Hurling, Gaelic Football,
Handball and Rounders, and such other games,
as may be sanctioned and approved by Annual
Congress.

It this a possible solution to all our problems?

We get the the GAA to take over the running of association football in Ireland. In one fell swoop we'll get rid of the FAI and get to play in Croke Park!

[Plastic Paddy]

It this a possible solution to all our problems?

We get the the GAA to take over the running of association football in Ireland. In one fell swoop we'll get rid of the FAI and get to play in Croke Park!

Best post of the day by a mile. You should apply when the CEO job goes to open call... :)

:D PP

[monutdfc]

[QUOTE=Donal81]Unlike the IRFU, though, the FAI doesn't pay players, does it?
QUOTE]
Do players on senior international duty get paid? I thought they did, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, if Bohs or Cork or whoever didn't have to play their players they could invest much more of their income into facilities and build a super stadium for themsleves.

[Slash/ED]

Do players on senior international duty get paid? I thought they did, but I could be wrong.
.

They pay a small fee to the players, and the aul G14 are trying to get a rule that says FAs will have to pay clubs every time they call a player up for international duty.

[Donal81]

Do players on senior international duty get paid? I thought they did, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, if Bohs or Cork or whoever didn't have to play their players they could invest much more of their income into facilities and build a super stadium for themsleves.

The IRFU's model was aimed at bringing home international players. They have a central fund from which they pay all provincial players. This allows them to pay loads for, say, Brian O'Driscoll and then work the wage structure around what's left. The result is that the IRFU is making a loss but growing the game in Ireland and the game's stars are playing just down the road from you every weekend. While I'm not expecting players to leave the Premier League for the EL, the FAI has no organisation nor the slightest ounce of vision. I love soccer and would love to see it in a decent venue but I have no sympathy for the FAI. They may have been outfoxed by the government at some point but, if they had any cop, organisation or professionalism, they wouldn't have had to rely on Bertie and his socialist comrades.

[jbyrne]

the FAI has no organisation nor the slightest ounce of vision. I love soccer and would love to see it in a decent venue but I have no sympathy for the FAI. They may have been outfoxed by the government at some point but, if they had any cop, organisation or professionalism, they wouldn't have had to rely on Bertie and his socialist comrades.

there is hardly a national association in the world that has built their own stadium. most use stadiums built by local authorities or main government. even the gaa for all the credit they get for re-building croke park will at the very very most pay 50% themselves. critisism of the FAI for not building their own satdium yet is harsh and it is dreamland to expect them to have done so by now. if countrys the size of france, england, italy etc. had to rely on their governments to build a national stadium what hope has a country our size??

[Donal81]

there is hardly a national association in the world that has built their own stadium. most use stadiums built by local authorities or main government. even the gaa for all the credit they get for re-building croke park will at the very very most pay 50% themselves. critisism of the FAI for not building their own satdium yet is harsh and it is dreamland to expect them to have done so by now. if countrys the size of france, england, italy etc. had to rely on their governments to build a national stadium what hope has a country our size??

The FAI wouldn't be in the miserable situation it's in now - no money and therefore no clout - if it had ever been run properly. As it is, they have to follow the Government around begging for money. I don't expect them to be able to come up with the resources now to build a stadium out of nowhere but if they had planned for this in the slightest, they would be in a much better position.

If they had been lobbying the government over the past decade instead of fighting amongst themselves and divvying up the generated cash, they mightn't be in square one, where they are now. If they had done so and the Government wasn't interested, then I'd appreciate their efforts and sympathise with them.

As it is, they're a joke of an organisation. Why would you throw money at them? We don't have a national soccer stadium because the FAI has never planned for one until very recently - and even then it was ropey - which, given the interest in soccer over the past 15 years, is unforgiveable so don't expect me to blame the GAA or the government for it.

[Macy]

The FAI wouldn't be in the miserable situation it's in now - no money and therefore no clout - if it had ever been run properly. As it is, they have to follow the Government around begging for money. I don't expect them to be able to come up with the resources now to build a stadium out of nowhere but if they had planned for this in the slightest, they would be in a much better position.

One last time, did you ever hear of Eircom Park? You know, that stadium that the FAI were going to build until it was scuppered by the Government so that the FAI would favour Abbotstown?

[Macy]

They built the model, full stop. They then spent a few years lying to everyone, and to each other, about how much they were paying the marketing company and how many seats they had sold and how much of the funds went onto Bernard O'Byrne's credit card account etc, etc. Remember the hilarious costings produced of £60m, which 'omitted' the almost £20m the land would cost? A farce, with most parties claiming it would cost at least duoble what was projected by O'Byrne. You must be the most optimistic man in Ireland about it's chances of being built, because presumably they would have expected the builders to take payment in the form of IOUs and promises. The National Stadium proposal gave them a handy way of letting the whole project die off quietly, because it was getting to the 'very embarrassing' stage when people were asking hard questions...
Maybe it would've been a success, maybe it would've. Much of the above is when the people in the FAI were fighting to get the stadium built without Government support, after Bertie had said no to them on the basis of Abbotstown - they were desperately trying to make it viable as they didn't trust Bertie. How right they were....

[Donal81]

One last time, did you ever hear of Eircom Park? You know, that stadium that the FAI were going to build until it was scuppered by the Government so that the FAI would favour Abbotstown?

Mate, I've already posted that I was aware of Eircom Park, it would be pretty hard to forget that fiasco. My point was that the FAI is a shambolic farce of an organisation and if the mess that was the Eircom Park 'proposal' was the culmination of the FAI's organisation and lobbying power, my point is only strengthened. Bertie may have played them - what did they think, that he was honest? - but that was the first attempt at getting a stadium and it was a pretty pathetic one. Same old story.

[Schumi]

They built the model, full stop. They then spent a few years lying to everyone, and to each other, about how much they were paying the marketing company and how many seats they had sold ... Remember the hilarious costings produced of £60m, which 'omitted' the almost £20m the land would cost? A farce, with most parties claiming it would cost at least duoble what was projected
Sounds remarkably similar to the Abbottstown fiasco.

[Peadar]

Was up in Croker last week.
They're putting boxes over the Hill on the section where the old Nally Stand used to be. About 6 or 7 boxes from what I could see.
There's a fairly big gap between the Hill and the Cusack Stand.
It's well impressive though.
I expect TV stations to use the new boxes.
It will give a much better view of the rest of the ground.
It's just crying out for a global audiance beyond exiled GAA supporters.

Read something there last week that Arsenal are going to use the same pitch technology in their new Emirates Stadium. It will be interesting to see if the players slide around as much on that pitch. Poor old Pires will be like an auld wan on ice. :D

[Slash/ED]

Poor old Pires will be like an auld wan on ice. :D

No change there then...

[SuperDub]

Peader,

I heard that what they are actually building beside the hill is a security control centre for the garda/emergency services etc.

Spurs use the same crowd as the gaa do for their playing surface.I read in one of their programmes that they sent their head grounds man over to croker to have a look at the set up. We don't hear the spurs lads complaining. I was wondering is it just the way that its looked after thats the problem

I was on a tour of croker earlier in the year and the guide was constantly making swipes at other sports. I asked him about floodlights and he said that the stands were all wired up for lights.

Another guy asked him about soccer/rugby in croker and he was totally against it and he also said that they would have put up barbed for segregation of fans etc and that it would'nt work. I pointed out to him that i have been at many irish soccer games abroad over the years and have'nt seen barbed wire only a line of stewards segregating fans.

I suggested he should go to a soccer game aws it might broaden his horizens but that did'nt go down well with him

SuperDub

[Peadar]

Peader,

I heard that what they are actually building beside the hill is a security control centre for the garda/emergency services etc.

You're very probably right but there's 6 or 7 boxes so I doubt they'll need them all.

I think Liverpool and Aston Villa use the same pitch technology too.