Referee a Scandal

[Fair_play_boy]

It is just as well that Pats and Shels drew. For, if a win against Bohs tonight would have won the league, the referee Mr. Stokes would have a lot to answer for.
I know I could be dismissed as being a whinger for saying this, but after seeing his performance tonight, it is hard not to be cynical.
It seemed to me and several others around me that he was sent down to Cork tonight to do a job. His penalty was not even excusable as a bad decision.
1. Michael Devine won the ball before making contact with the player coming in, so it should not have even been a free.
2. He connected with the ball and the player outside the penalty area. If it was inside the penalty area, Devine would have used his hands.
I know that I went on a lot this season about the standard of reffing. But now I think the club has to analyse what else it can get right to go forward. Upping the standard of refereeing is the next main objective, IMO.

[dancinpants]

Another thing, again this is all irrelevant at this stage, but did you notice that the $hel$ ended fairly abruptly - was there any injury time? The other two matches were still being played and the $hel$ match was over.

[Fair_play_boy]

Yeah I wondered about that. I HATE conspiracy theorising cause it sounds like being a sore loser, but the 4th official at the City match signalled just 1 minute injury time at the end of the first half, despite three lengthy stoppages in the half. And then the ref went on the play what seemed like about 40 seconds. The players were livid. Danny Murphy is not normally the most polite when he feels wronged, but on this occasion I thought his hi-lites would catch fire.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Another thing, again this is all irrelevant at this stage, but did you notice that the $hel$ ended fairly abruptly - was there any injury time? The other two matches were still being played and the $hel$ match was over.

Only 1 sub came on in the above match (30 seconds added time) and the physios were hardly on at all. Where was the injury time gonna come from ?

[dancinpants]

I probably would tell ye if RTE beamed the match live to my desk here at work in the states, thats why I was wondering!!!

[CollegeTillIDie]

I probably would tell ye if RTE beamed the match live to my desk here at work in the states, thats why I was wondering!!!

Well as you did not indicate your location... how was I to know? :confused:

[dancinpants]

Oh **** yeah - sorry! ;)

[Rebal Boy]

Lads, that was the worst reffering that I ever saw in my life. :mad: I think their should be a nutrual ref at every game. A Dublin ref again. They should pick a ref from like Galway or Kildare a something like that. I bet Bohs wouldn't of let a Cork ref do it would they? I'm certin City are going to win league once and forall next season. Fair play to them anyway. Great fight back. Does anyone know wen the Setena Cup kicks-off?

[ollie]

the penalty was a joke.after seeing it again on the tv i still can't for the life of me see how it was a penalty.another few bad decisions throughout the game as well left me fuming. :mad:
something has to be done about the standard of refeering in this country.
shels wer robbed as well tonight because of the ref.
shelbourne deserved the title it over the course of the season to be fair.they've been top since the start.i wont be a sour grape and say well done.

[colblimp]

As I wrote in one of my articles tonight in FourFiveOne, for the big games why not fly English, Scottish or Welsh referees over here. For about €50 a piece for their flight you're guaranteed fairness.

What does everybody else think? Surely it has to be the way forward.

[ollie]

As I wrote in one of my articles tonight in FourFiveOne, for the big games why not fly English, Scottish or Welsh referees over here. For about €50 a piece for their flight you're guaranteed fairness.

What does everybody else think? Surely it has to be the way forward.

its an idea but shouldn't there be guaranteed fairness in all games not just the big 1s.surely there are some more refs from outside of dublin.it sounds suspect to have a dublin ref refeering a dublin team.does this happen any where else?

[eoinh]

That referee was a disgrace. I was right beside the "penalty" incident. Even if it was a penalty (which it wasnt) it was outside the box.

Pat Dolan who was very praiseworthy of Shels said that a couple of weeks ago after the Derry game he went to the ref (Stokes) to shake his hand. He refused to shake Dolans hand.

BTW How could tou have a dublin ref for that game, when the team we are playing are from Dublin and the only other team who are in championship contention are another Dublin team.

Its not professional. Its not right. Its doesnt look right and it as sure as hell does not look professional.

Twenty years ive followed City and that has to be the worst performance by a ref ive seen. We had Comical Ali. Now its time for Comical Ref.

:mad:

[colblimp]

its an idea but shouldn't there be guaranteed fairness in all games not just the big 1s.surely there are some more refs from outside of dublin.it sounds suspect to have a dublin ref refeering a dublin team.does this happen any where else?

In England the officials have to live at least 100 miles away from both teams that are playing the match.

There would NEVER be the situation that you get in this league with a dub ref officiating a match with a dub team involved.

Also, Mr Kelly would no way have been allowed to ref the $h€l$ game with the situation, ie Cork could win the league if $h€l$ lose, in England.

The FAI is just a joke. Plain and simple.

[CollegeTillIDie]

In England the officials have to live at least 100 miles away from both teams that are playing the match.

There would NEVER be the situation that you get in this league with a dub ref officiating a match with a dub team involved.

Also, Mr Kelly would no way have been allowed to ref the $h€l$ game with the situation, ie Cork could win the league if $h€l$ lose, in England.

The FAI is just a joke. Plain and simple.

Perhaps but the fact that there is a shortage of referees is probably the real reason for it. Your points are nonetheless valid. As regards the earlier posting about imported refs, the FAI actually did that for Cup Finals around 50 years ago.

[patsh]

I only saw a few minutes of the $hels game on TV3, but McKeon seemd to have been just as bad. Cahill was taken down for a definite penalty and got nothing, and Byrne scored a perfectly good goal, which was disallowed for interference with the keeper, but it was a SPA player who got into a tangle with his own keeper!
It has to be said though, that Stokes reached the absolute nadir of incompetence, ineptitude and downright stupidity. He has to bethe centre of attention in every game he refs
It was a shameful performance and this league is going to have another full crisis soon if there is not a serious effort to do somethng about the likes of this guy.

[SSS]

I suppose you get used to poor performances, but isn't Stokes the guy who didn't give Flynny a peno in Tolka and who gave at least two late and very soft penos against City in away games last season (Derry and Longford)?

That goes beyond incompetent and into the realm of bias and cheating.
He should never ref a City game again.

:mad: :mad:

Sorry to the young kids around me last night for all the cursing and abuse aimed at that man - I'm usually much quieter. :o

[patsh]

He gave a penalty against us up in the first Longford away game, when he was the only person in the entire county who saw the "incident" or even knew what it was. He has also refused to shake Dolan's hand before and if I'm not mistaken he has given a penalty against us in virtually every game we have had to play under him.

Funnily enough, he missed a blatent penalty in the 1st half, when one of the Boh defenders, maybe Oman, clearly handled the ball. It was soon after Colin was deemed not to be fouled just inside the area, Woodsy crossed the ball the keeper didn't get to it and the defender put his palm down to deflect it across the goalmouth.

[eoinh]

Funnily enough, he missed a blatent penalty in the 1st half, when one of the Boh defenders, maybe Oman, clearly handled the ball. It was soon after Colin was deemed not to be fouled just inside the area, Woodsy crossed the ball the keeper didn't get to it and the defender put his palm down to deflect it across the goalmouth.

Thats exactly what my dad said whem i met him after the match. We had to split up as we coudnt find two seats next to each other. I was at one end of the ground he was at the other. The penalty that was given wasnt a penalty - it happened right under my nose. Didnt see the city incident but my father was up there. He said it was a blatant penalty.

[Fair_play_boy]

Lads I have a letter written to the Eircom league with these and other arguments, and I am asking for a reply to explain why not adopt the obvious practices suggested here to achieve competence, fairness and the perception of fairness.
Problem is, I can't find a postal address for them anywhere on the net.
Can any of you wise young people help please?

[Pablo]

Lads I have a letter written to the Eircom league with these and other arguments, and I am asking for a reply to explain why not adopt the obvious practices suggested here to achieve competence, fairness and the perception of fairness.
Problem is, I can't find a postal address for them anywhere on the net.
Can any of you wise young people help please?
Name Address & Telephone Number Info Web Email


Eircom National League
80 Merrion sq,
Dublin
(01) 7037575

[Fair_play_boy]

Cheers Pablo. I will post their reply if any.
FPB

[daveh]

Ive only realised this recently but Anthony Buttimer and Alan Kelly both seem to ref in Dublin nearly every week,and yet City,who have played 10 games in Dublin in the league this year,have not had a match refed by either.Can anyone explain that?Its kinda odd if theres a shotage of refs.Surely by the law of averages they should have refed at least 1 of citys games in dublin?

[Dr.Nightdub]

Thank your lucky stars youse haven't had Buttimer. He ref'ed Rovers V Pats last week and he must've thought it was a bogball match cos he let about a dozen handballs go unpunished. In fairness, he wasn't biased as both teams were at it - one, in front of the stand by Aidan O'Keefe, was so blatant we could see i from the Camac. I'd say Aido was giggling to himself as he headed up the pitch.

[pete]

I suppose by the laws of averages & considering the playing population & number of clubs from dublin you'd expect 3-4 dublin refs from the 6 refs every week.

Sign of bad ref is usually the number of times he blows the whistle & the unwillingness to play advantage or allow quick free kicks.

I can't see any circumstance that was penalty on friday as he would surely have to send off Devine as he by long way last man & especially if it was outside the box but then of course couldn't be a penalty then. :confused:

Strangely Stokes seem to run of free kick quota in 2nd half as he much less intrusive.

:rolleyes:

[hoofball]

Not defending the ref by any means....but after seeing the incident on the TV (and after calming down) I can see why he gave it. From his position it must have looked a peno, on the night I thought it was outside the box but the collision happened just inside the corner of the box. TBH I can't tell if it's a peno or not and that's after watching it about 30 times, it looks too close to me. The ref should have given Mick a red card though if he stuck to the rules....

[Fair_play_boy]

From his position it must have looked a peno From any position in the ground it was plain to see that Devine nicked away the ball. Maybe from his position, there was enough in it to get away with awarding a peno, if he was questioned on it afterwards. :mad:

[ollie]

if the player got the ball the ball would have gone forward or a bit to either side but it went out of play on the side line proving devine got the ball.

[pineapple stu]

1. Michael Devine won the ball before making contact with the player coming in, so it should not have even been a free.
2. He connected with the ball and the player outside the penalty area. If it was inside the penalty area, Devine would have used his hands.

I presume after getting only 50% of the above right (the first part) - the same as the ref in the game - that you're going to write yourself off as being as poorly informed about refereeing as you're making the ref out to be? Or that you'll remember your own errors when next you (partly at least) wrongly criticise a ref?

And after all the whingeing about refs, and too many Dublin refs, and all sorts, nobody has actually said anything about doing something practical and taking a course to become a ref. Yes, they're far from perfect (and bear in mind that I've seen First Division refs! :eek: ;) ), but what's whining about it going to do?

[Gandhi]

I suppose you get used to poor performances, but isn't Stokes the guy who didn't give Flynny a peno in Tolka and who gave at least two late and very soft penos against City in away games last season (Derry and Longford)?

That goes beyond incompetent and into the realm of bias and cheating.
He should never ref a City game again.

:mad: :mad:

Sorry to the young kids around me last night for all the cursing and abuse aimed at that man - I'm usually much quieter. :o

Likewise, I'd like to apologise to anyone offended by the many profanities I screamed at Mr Stokes :eek: Does anyone know if he is related to Noel King? It would explain everything!

[colblimp]

After watching EL weekly last night, I can confirm what I thought at the game. THAT WAS NEVER A PENALTY IN A MILLION YEARS!!!

Ian Stokes, you should be ashamed of yourself. I hope I never have to see your pitiful face ever again. I hope the referees department of the FAI demote you to under 11's girls football. It's about your level. :mad:

[ccfcman]

Do the eL have a complaints type email address?

[razor]

Ian Stokes, you should be ashamed of yourself. I hope I never have to see your pitiful face ever again. I hope the referees department of the FAI demote you to under 11's girls football. It's about your level. :mad:
And Kelly had the nerve to bring him into the East Village after the game with his 2 midgets, If I was there he'd have got a piece of my mind.

I am signing up for the next refs course, the way I look at it is there are so many bad refs out there that no matter how bad I am, I wouldn't be anywhere near the worst.
Refs like that degrade football in this country.

[Colm]

And Kelly had the nerve to bring him into the East Village after the game with his 2 midgets, If I was there he'd have got a piece of my mind.

Do they usually go there after games??
I think the Rebel Army might have our post match night out in the east Village next time Mr. Stokes is in town! :eek: ;)

[Gary]

And do what precisely? :rolleyes:

[Colm]

And do what precisely? :rolleyes:

Have a little chat! ;)

[Gary]

About the weather no doubt?

[Colm]

About the weather no doubt?

Yeah and other general things like traffic, politics, music and.................................... crooked referees!!!!

[ccfcman]

This reminds me of the "We know where your car is" chant, a young wah roared it 1 day, and this huge fella turns around and says "What are you gonna do, fill it with petrol?!"

[steveh]

Was sitting in the vicinity of Pat Kelly, an assessor for EL referees and heard him say that there was no way it was a penalty. Took up the point with him, then he said that we should never have gotten pen against derry few wks previous, so it all balanced out. What an idiot!!!

[Man-In-Black]

And Kelly had the nerve to bring him into the East Village after the game with his 2 midgets, If I was there he'd have got a piece of my mind.

I am signing up for the next refs course, the way I look at it is there are so many bad refs out there that no matter how bad I am, I wouldn't be anywhere near the worst.
Refs like that degrade football in this country.


I hope you do the course Razor, referee some matches and then come back and tell the forum what a hard, thankless job the referee has. Fans look at decisions as good or bad depending on whether it went for or against their team.....

Look forward to see if you are still a referee in two years time!! :)

[Fair_play_boy]

I presume after getting only 50% of the above right (the first part) - the same as the ref in the game - that you're going to write yourself off as being as poorly informed about refereeing as you're making the ref out to be? Or that you'll remember your own errors when next you (partly at least) wrongly criticise a ref?

And after all the whingeing about refs, and too many Dublin refs, and all sorts, nobody has actually said anything about doing something practical and taking a course to become a ref. Yes, they're far from perfect (and bear in mind that I've seen First Division refs! :eek: ;) ), but what's whining about it going to do?You are being far too kind to the referree. Re-read my post. I deliberately steered away from the suggestion that the referree made a mistake. My belief is that nobody can be that bad consistently. Another explanation suggests itself: that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, so to speak.
I heard the TV pictures show that Divine made contact with the player inside the penalty area. I have not seen the TV pictures of the game and I presume that you have, and / or you were at the game and decided to post this 4 days later. I posted within an hour of the final whistle. To me, and to the 7 or 8 people immediately around me, it appeared that it was outside the box. Probably something to do with how far outside the box the player landed.
So we were wrong. Now, what is your point exactly? If a person posting here makes mistakes, does that mean there is no validity generally in complaining about the standard of referreeing? What are we supposed to do, lie down and accept it while the evidence mounts up that something suspicious is going on?
By the way, if you bother to check, you will find that I and many others have used these forums to propose ways of improving the standards in Irish referreeing. Maybe after another 4 days you will come back and acknowledge this fact. ;)

[ccfcman]

Was sitting in the vicinity of Pat Kelly, an assessor for EL referees and heard him say that there was no way it was a penalty. Took up the point with him, then he said that we should never have gotten pen against derry few wks previous, so it all balanced out. What an idiot!!!
I think you're the idiot, it was no penalty against Bohz :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

Well, made my four-day deadline! ;)


You are being far too kind to the referee.

Not really. It was never a penalty, and I agree with you fully on that.


I deliberately steered away from the suggestion that the referee made a mistake....Another explanation suggests itself: that there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, so to speak.

You shouldn't have. He did make a mistake. You called him a scandal in the thread title which, if it doesn't imply he made a mistake, implies he deliberately gave the decision against you. I've refereed games involving people I know - indeed, my own team - and had no problems either being impartial or being seen to be impartial. Any errors I made were taken as mistakes. As someone who has refereed before, therefore, I take exception to people casually and continuously accusing referees of being biased. They're not. End of story.


My belief is that nobody can be that bad consistently.

Have a year in the First Division and see if you still say that! ;)



I heard the TV pictures show that Divine made contact with the player inside the penalty area. I have not seen the TV pictures of the game and I presume that you have, and / or you were at the game and decided to post this 4 days later. I posted within an hour of the final whistle. To me, and to the 7 or 8 people immediately around me, it appeared that it was outside the box. Probably something to do with how far outside the box the player landed.

This is the crux of my point. OK, the ref was nearer to it than you. But how can people continuously excuse themselves for getting decisions wrong and yet not let referees off once? Are they supposed to be perfect? They have the same split second time to react as you did, and yet you were both 50% wrong. Yet the ref will get the abuse and you'll ignore your error.

These arguments are always one-sided as well - people always whinge about the wrong decisions they perceive the referee as making and yet the ref has no access to a comeback to respons to his criticism. This bit obviously isn't aimed at you, but if you have a situation like that, pretty soon people are going to believe all sorts of things about the ref due to a lack of balance in the arguments, which leads to what we have now, where a ref will be blamed for anything, probably even if he's proved right!

Incidentally, as my avatar will show, I wasn't at the game, and yes, I only saw it on the Monday.


So we were wrong. Now, what is your point exactly?

Referees make mistakes. They are not biased. It annoys me when people launch into a full-scale attack of referees calling them biased, etc., when they made a genuine (if big) error. That's all.


What are we supposed to do, lie down and accept it while the evidence mounts up that something suspicious is going on?

What about my suggestion - go out and take a refereeing course? You can talk all you want, it won't shift one Roman soldier... :p

[Éanna]

Was sitting in the vicinity of Pat Kelly, an assessor for EL referees and heard him say that there was no way it was a penalty. Took up the point with him, then he said that we should never have gotten pen against derry few wks previous, so it all balanced out. What an idiot!!!
Yeah, I had a chat with him afterwards, and he said exactly the same thing.

[DubRef]

1) Penalty Incident

Devine came sliding into the challenge with two feet taking ball AND player. He is actually sliding sideways when he connects. Just because he makes contact with the ball doesn't mean it wasn't a foul. The challenge was reckless and if it had been an outfield player making the challenge most would have agreed it was a foul. Tony Grant went off injured a few minutes later as a result of Devines tackle.

Have another look at the incident and watch Devine, see if you still think he was innocent.

2) Stokes has refereed Cork City eight times this season. Cork have Won 3 (Drogs/Pats/Derry), Lost 2 (Bohs/UCD), Drawn 3 (Longford/Rovers/Bohs). Has given 2 penos against Cork. Has sent off no Cork players but has sent off two opposition players. Facts don't support case for conspiracy.

3) Referees have a split second to make a decision based on THEIR view, without the benefit of slow motion or replays from twenty different camera angles. They don't go out to deliberately rob one team over another, despite what you may think. Its a tough, thankless job, give them a break.

[city 4 life]

so to sum it all up ian stokes in a l*nger :D
and we're all agreed on the shocking standard of referees we have to see week in week out!

[colblimp]

I hope you do the course Razor, referee some matches and then come back and tell the forum what a hard, thankless job the referee has. Fans look at decisions as good or bad depending on whether it went for or against their team.....

Look forward to see if you are still a referee in two years time!! :)

I have been refereeing since 1988 and would agree, yes, it is a thankless task. But no matter how bad a game I had, I was always fair, acknowledged if I had made a wrong decision (never changed it), but also I never made such a balls up as Stokes did on Friday night.

It's obvious to everyone with a bit of sense that if the ball changes the direction that it is travelling in then contact has been made with it. Thus was the case on Friday. After seeing it again on the telly, Devine made no contact whatsoever with the player.

If you think he did then you, sir, need an eye-test. :p

[Man-In-Black]

It's obvious to everyone with a bit of sense that if the ball changes the direction that it is travelling in then contact has been made with it. Thus was the case on Friday. After seeing it again on the telly, Devine made no contact whatsoever with the player.

If you think he did then you, sir, need an eye-test. :p


Devine made no contact whatsoever!! THe fact that contact was made is not disputed even by Cork Fans. They argue that the contact happened after Devine won the ball or that the contact happened outside the area.

Now who needs an eye test!!
:rolleyes:

[thecorner]

getting sick to death of coming into this forum after every game and seeing complaints about refs... yes they are bad, they are very bad....but they are just as bad for the opposition

its going a bit stale lads :eek:

IMO with all the moaning about refs and being in the limelight more than the linesmen(...ooops sorry,linespersons), that eddie foley is getting away with murder :D

[razor]

Was sitting in the vicinity of Pat Kelly, an assessor for EL referees and heard him say that there was no way it was a penalty. Took up the point with him, then he said that we should never have gotten pen against derry few wks previous, so it all balanced out. What an idiot!!!
I can't believe refs think like this.
I thought each game should be judged by itself, if each ref went about making atonements for f*ck ups in previous games then what kind of a league would we have. It shouldn't be about balancing things out.


I hope you do the course Razor, referee some matches and then come back and tell the forum what a hard, thankless job the referee has.
I know what a thankless task it will be but I am hoping it will give me a better insight into the game and maybe be a bit more sympathetic of refs in general but by God with some of the performances I have ever witnessed it ain't been easy.