Welsh to copy the Irish?

[eoinh]

We are being watched!. See here (http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0600soccer/0200news/tm_objectid=14884328&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=welsh-premier-seeks-to-raise-its-low-profile-name_page.html)

[fbtn]

"And Irish teams don't have big Premiership clubs on their doorstep, like ours do in North Wales."

What about Bohs :D

[Éanna]

its a credit to everyone involved in this league that we have gone from being the ones who were looking at other leagues for inspiration (we still are i know!) to being an example for others. thats progress IMO.

[Poor Student]

Hmmmm. Good luck to them. Exactly however tough we have it competing with English football they have it far harder. It would be like trying to organise the eL with Bohs, Cork and Shels playing in England. Prhaps if the Setanta Cup takes off we could invite them in to make it a kind of Celtic cup. Even just two of their teams to make it two groups of four.

[ShelsTim]

Hmmmm. Good luck to them. Exactly however tough we have it competing with English football they have it far harder. It would be like trying to organise the eL with Bohs, Cork and Shels playing in England. Prhaps if the Setanta Cup takes off we could invite them in to make it a kind of Celtic cup. Even just two of their teams to make it two groups of four.

Isn't that the plan with it, eventually including Scotland too. I'ld love to see that meself.

[Poor Student]

Isn't that the plan with it, eventually including Scotland too. I'ld love to see that meself.

I heard something along those lines. But I'd keep the Scots out for this reason. We couldn't have Scotland's best clubs in it so we'd be cheapening our repuation by having top clubs from Wales, NI and ROI and maybe 1st Division Scots.

[ShelsTim]

I heard something along those lines. But I'd keep the Scots out for this reason. We couldn't have Scotland's best clubs in it so we'd be cheapening our repuation by having top clubs from Wales, NI and ROI and maybe 1st Division Scots.

It could be on an invite basis, which would mean half the premier wouldn't be arsed entering, so we'ld play the lower teams and it'ld be competitive. Then, if/when the teams involved get good enough, Rangers/Celtic can get involved and make a tourney out of it.

[A face]

Isn't that the plan with it, eventually including Scotland too. I'ld love to see that meself.

Walk before you can run !!

[Macy]

Their looking at 5 year strategy for the League of Wales, does the eL know what it's plans are for next week?

[A face]

Their looking at 5 year strategy for the League of Wales, does the eL know what it's plans are for next week?


Well we did have a plan but people like Devlin starting piping up about it and fúcked it for everyone else. That guy is so short sighted it is not funny ... he is a disater for our league. :mad:

[Pablo]

there is no interest in the league of wales over there. they have the same standiong as the munster or leinster senior league and even cup finals and important league matches rarely attract any crowds bigger than a few hundred

[paudie]

They're at a disadvantage as well cos they have no clubs in the biggest centres of population, Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham so the clubs are all from small towns basically.

That limits the potential attendances big time.

At least here there are clubs based in big population centres so there is a population to aim for.

[anto eile]

but the league of wales has no history or tradition,so it hasnt had time to build up a fan base (as dublin cityfarm found out that takes more than money and a couple of short years) or even have people look back at the glory years etc (ie LoI up til the 60s).though the welsh fa cup has been going a long time the league itself was only founded in 1992 because uefa threatened to throw wales out of int'l football for not having a domestic league.all wales big clubs have always played in england, Cardiff wrexham and swansea arent the only ones,theres many other welsh clubs that play/have played in england..and many english clubs have played in the welsh FA cup too

[paudie]

but the league of wales has no history or tradition,so it hasnt had time to build up a fan base (as dublin cityfarm found out that takes more than money and a couple of short years) or even have people look back at the glory years etc (ie LoI up til the 60s).though the welsh fa cup has been going a long time the league itself was only founded in 1992 because uefa threatened to throw wales out of int'l football for not having a domestic league.all wales big clubs have always played in england, Cardiff wrexham and swansea arent the only ones,theres many other welsh clubs that play/have played in england..and many english clubs have played in the welsh FA cup too

You're right there. The League of Ireland and FAI Cup have an outstanding tradition behind them since 1922.

Something the clubs and the league should use more to promote the league.

[Aberdonian Stu]

Another thing is that last year's champions, I think it's Rhyl, are considering moving into the English pyramid, well at least they were at the end of last season.

[dcfcsteve]

but the league of wales has no history or tradition,so it hasnt had time to build up a fan base (as dublin cityfarm found out that takes more than money and a couple of short years) or even have people look back at the glory years etc (ie LoI up til the 60s).though the welsh fa cup has been going a long time the league itself was only founded in 1992 because uefa threatened to throw wales out of int'l football for not having a domestic league.all wales big clubs have always played in england, Cardiff wrexham and swansea arent the only ones,theres many other welsh clubs that play/have played in england..and many english clubs have played in the welsh FA cup too

I can only think of one other Welsh team that play in the English structure - Newport County. They used to be a league team back 15-20yrs ago, but are now in the depths of non-league football. I think there may be another one or 2 Welsh teams in England (e.g. Barry Town since they went bust), but that's it.

Which English clubs have played in the Welsh FA Cup, by the way ? Would be surprised if it was "many", and apart form Oswestry (who have since merged with TNS) I can't think of any English teams who do or have played in Wales.

TNS (Total Network Solutions) were the Welsh Champions last year. As the only Pro club in Wales, they've taken over the mantle of perennial league winners that belonged to Barry Town before they went bust 2 seasons ago. They're still rubbish versus other leagues and have relatively few fans.

[CollegeTillIDie]

With Wrexham up to their oxters in debt and their future in doubt I am struck by a thought. When the Welsh League was formed in 1992, the Anglo clubs like Cardiff and Wrexham etc were banned from representing Wales in Europe via winning the Welsh Cup. Wrexham are up the creek without a paddle financially. They have had no European football on a regular basis since the late 1980's, I am just wondering with the benefit of hindsight, would they not have been better off had they joined the League of Wales and quailified for Europe every season, and had shorter away trips to do domestically with the consequent reduction in cost of fulfilling away fixtures etc?

[Poor Student]

With Wrexham up to their oxters in debt and their future in doubt I am struck by a thought. When the Welsh League was formed in 1992, the Anglo clubs like Cardiff and Wrexham etc were banned from representing Wales in Europe via winning the Welsh Cup. Wrexham are up the creek without a paddle financially. They have had no European football on a regular basis since the late 1980's, I am just wondering with the benefit of hindsight, would they not have been better off had they joined the League of Wales and quailified for Europe every season, and had shorter away trips to do domestically with the consequent reduction in cost of fulfilling away fixtures etc?

Well I guess once you get in the English football league you can always chase the dream of making it big time. I believe Swansea made a rapid ascent to the top flight in the early 80's, or perhaps rapid descent, maybe even both! Welsh football is a dead end in some respects compared to the seemingly limitless opportunities to climb another level in England. Also Wales in some respects almost since its conquest in the middle ages has been almost like an extra English shire, unlike Scotland who maintained a far more seperate structure so it is not such a strange thing to cross over. It's an unfortunate situation for those involved with the League of Wales.

[dcfcsteve]

With Wrexham up to their oxters in debt and their future in doubt I am struck by a thought. When the Welsh League was formed in 1992, the Anglo clubs like Cardiff and Wrexham etc were banned from representing Wales in Europe via winning the Welsh Cup. Wrexham are up the creek without a paddle financially. They have had no European football on a regular basis since the late 1980's, I am just wondering with the benefit of hindsight, would they not have been better off had they joined the League of Wales and quailified for Europe every season, and had shorter away trips to do domestically with the consequent reduction in cost of fulfilling away fixtures etc?

Even though they're financially fecked now (which club in England isn't !!), I don't think anyone at Wrexham FC would think joining the Welsh Premier would've been the right move for their club at any point in their history.

The annual average gate for Welsh Premier teams last season was a whopping 300. This year its so-far down to an average of 269 a match. There's 18 teams in the Welsh Prem, each playing 32 games : a total of 576 league games a year. Of those, only THREE (3) games last season attracted a crowd of over 1,000. Those stats are shocking.

Wrexham meanwhile attract 2-3,000 easily for each home game, and more for their big 'derby' matches. They therefore bring in a lot more income through being in the English structure.

In terms of their expenditures, I'm not sure how well you know Wales but it's a fecker of a country to travel in. There's no decent north-south transport network of any sort - either road or rail (e.g. to travel by train from the Western corner of North Wales to the Western corner of South Wales, you have to go via England !). Admitedly, most of the FAW Premier clubs are in North Wales, though a very large number of English teams are also within easy reach of Wrexham - Merseyside, Greater Manchester, the English Midlands. There's many more teams in England in those 3 areas than there are in the whole of the Welsh Premier.

Finally, I fear that Wrexham are 'lost' to Welsh football. They've been in the English structure for so long that they're now part and parcel of it. They consider their local derby teams to be Tranmere and Chester, not Cardiff or Swansea. And this despite the fact Wrexham is on the fringes of the biggest Welsh speaking area !

I'd love to see Wrexham add a bit of spice to the Welsh premier, but without Swansea, Cardiff and Newport Co in there as well it just wouldn't happen. There's a warning for Scottish and Irish football in all of this....

[CollegeTillIDie]

dcfcsteve

I take what you say about being closer to Merseyside. The problem has been that they have not always been in the same league as Tranmere or Chester or even the lesser lights of Manc like Stockport , Oldham or Bury.
They have had to travel to the likes of Carlisle and Torquay and Plymouth, which are with respect a lot further away than the remotest corner of Cymru.

You are correct about it being a warning for Scottish and Irish clubs, which is why I was among those who opposed the Wimbledon for Dublin nonsense.

I would also be opposed to the Old Firm joining English football. If people think Scottish football is in a bad way now.... well the big 2 joining English ranks would be the death knell.... no big gates for small clubs from playing them.

[eoinh]

Which English clubs have played in the Welsh FA Cup, by the way ?

Chester were definitely one. Are they a nonleague team now? There were others.

[dcfcsteve]

Chester are currently League Two in England (the former 3rd division). They came up through the Conference season before last, having been relegated form the League in 1999.

Have just Googled on Welsh Cup Winners, and Chester were indeed in the competition up until the 70's ! More surprisingly, another former non-leaguie team - Kidderminster Harriers - were in the Cup until the early 90's. They're much further from Wales than Chester, and hardly out-of-the way of the rest of England (based in the Midlands).

Very bizarre. I wonder why those teams were in there, and who else was ?

[CollegeTillIDie]

Chester are currently League Two in England (the former 3rd division). They came up through the Conference season before last, having been relegated form the League in 1999.

Have just Googled on Welsh Cup Winners, and Chester were indeed in the competition up until the 70's ! More surprisingly, another former non-leaguie team - Kidderminster Harriers - were in the Cup until the early 90's. They're much further from Wales than Chester, and hardly out-of-the way of the rest of England (based in the Midlands).

Very bizarre. I wonder why those teams were in there, and who else was ?

The following English teams also competed in the Welsh Cup over the years... Chester City, Tranmere Rovers, Hereford United ,Shrewsbury Town.. The reason is historical, Shropshire, CHeshire and Herefordshire were originally part of Wales... the English nicked each of them over the past 1032 years of their imperial domination of our fellow Celtic Leekeaters... Free Wales NOW :D

The Bristol clubs may well have competed in their early years..open to correction on that one.

[dcfcsteve]

Since the concept of Wales as a country was created, the only parts of it the English nicked were primarily in Shropshire, and the fringes of Worcestershire and Hertfordshire. Quite a few place names and even street names are in Welsh in some of those areas- it's very strange to see 100% street names in an English town like Oswestry....

Cheshire was never part of Wales, at least for as long as the concept of Wales as a country/nation existed. There's still a law on the statute books of Chester from medieval times that means it is legal to shoot a Welshman from the City walls with a bow and arrow if you see one approaching after dark. It's still a local law - I sheet you not....

Southern Manchester was originally in Cheshire before they came up with the 'Greater Manchester' nomenclature - you trying to say the Mancs are really Welsh....? :p

P.S. Spot the amateur Celtic Studies freak.... ! :)

[TonyD]

Can't help thinking the big Welsh clubs are being very short sighted here. Maybe once they could have dreamed about making the top Division in England, but how realistic is that now ? On the other hand a proper Welsh league, with Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, Newport would be competetive, with a proper Championship available to one of those clubs, rather than just the hope of tying to win a Division. Surely they could attract the same, if not bigger crowds, if they were chasing a league title. Also they would have a Champions legue spot to go for, plus a UEFA one for runners up. I can't see why that isn't an attractive scenario to them. I also think UEFA is at fault here. If Wales don't have their own proper league, with all Welsh teams competing in it, then their national side should be taken away. (The same should happen to Scotland if the Old Firm leave the Scotish league.)

[Slash/ED]

I can't see why that isn't an attractive scenario to them.

I think every Welsh club in England has a dream of becoming an established premiership side and they seem to think if that happens they'd basically become FC Wales and be able to attract massive crowds. Personally, I doubt that'd be the case, but that's certainly what Cardiff seem to think

[CollegeTillIDie]

Since the concept of Wales as a country was created, the only parts of it the English nicked were primarily in Shropshire, and the fringes of Worcestershire and Hertfordshire. Quite a few place names and even street names are in Welsh in some of those areas- it's very strange to see 100% street names in an English town like Oswestry....

Cheshire was never part of Wales, at least for as long as the concept of Wales as a country/nation existed. There's still a law on the statute books of Chester from medieval times that means it is legal to shoot a Welshman from the City walls with a bow and arrow if you see one approaching after dark. It's still a local law - I sheet you not....

Southern Manchester was originally in Cheshire before they came up with the 'Greater Manchester' nomenclature - you trying to say the Mancs are really Welsh....? :p

P.S. Spot the amateur Celtic Studies freak.... ! :)

Apologies for having the temerity to get a history degree!
Incidentally if the same logic used by those in power on the next island, to dominate the Irish Occupied territories were applied to England, then there should be a tricolour flying over Lancashire :p

[EireBadBoy]

They should try and enforce the UEFA licensing system, worked wonders in Ireland.

[dcfcsteve]

Apologies for having the temerity to get a history degree!
Incidentally if the same logic used by those in power on the next island, to dominate the Irish Occupied territories were applied to England, then there should be a tricolour flying over Lancashire :p

No need to apologise. Would've had a history degree myself if I hadn't bottled it and decided to do Business to get a job instead. Doesn't stop me from reading history in my spare time.... :) Disagree with anything I wrote if you like... :p