shocking racial taunts at spain v england

[Duncan Gardner]

I presume you mean me and Sylvo

No, I mean you and Davros. The witless abuse being key, not the Englishness.


Yes the atmosphere is fantastic...but it does not mean that sectarianism has been eradicated

Indeed- as above I'm not complacent, and I don't think Mike nor most other NI fans are either. NI is a volatile society and that won't change overnight.


It's one thing that individuals use various insults on a message board, another for the web site/fanzine to sanction an article

As I've said before here, I disagree with that article, wouldn't have posted and suggested to others that they remove it. But I doubt the distinction is hard and fast as you claim. You've posted a good deal of abuse on here, barely any of it has been removed. That reflects on the site as well as you, as I've explained at length previously.


I'm not trying to get English people to go to Irish games. Neither do I want people who consider themselves English to play for Ireland. Neither does the website organisers agree with what I'm saying

The first two points are irrelevant if you're using them as an excuse for the witless abuse. The third may be true, but allowing personal abuse to remain on the site suggests otherwise, does it not?


If I came onto OWC and started kicking off the way you (and the two clowns at the beginning of the year) did I'd be banned quicker than I could say 'Football For All'

I doubt that- others, just as rude as you and including plenty expressing nationalist views- stay on. I imagine many on OWC would say 'let the muppet reveal his own prejudices', or similar.

Of course if I was the moderator, you'd be censored. You know why.


Yes one idiot (or someone with a vested interest in forcing Lennon out (ie: a Taig)

No, the phone call was from Rathcoole, an area sadly unwelcoming to 'Taigs'. Assume the caller was a unionist.


Isn't it part of the Belfast Telegraph group?

No. That's the Sunday Life. Ireland on Sunday is RoI based.


But instead he goes all high and mighty while there is no concrete proof that sectarianism will not return in his own domain

He hasn't been anywhere as sanctimonious as you- even if it was easy to say, his opinion is mainstream, shared by an unholy alliance including El Pais, Marca, most British and Irish papers, Davros and Blatter!

He (Boyd) knows perfectly well that were similar events to occur in Belfast in future, closure of Windsor is a possibility. Don't forget we have plenty of experience of this, in living memory...


The lack of any legislation (as there is in Britain and Ireland) for inciting hatred may be absent from NI)

No, legislation is similar, though not identical. This summary is useful,

http://www.nio.gov.uk/rcsummary.pdf


Davros, for all his winding-up, makes the statement that sectarianism cannot be eliminated if it is rampant in the wider society

I'll admit that's one of the more coherent parts of his 'argument'- faint praise, eh- but the obvious answer is that he's using the presence of sectarianism to, er, justify sectarianism of his own. Something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, that.


Yeah right,the usual Orange humility ;)

Arrogant as I am, I bow to the presence of the master...


i've got a guide book for Poland, don't know if yer having a couple of days over there but if you are i'll bring it along on the 16th

Thank you. Look forward to the party!

[lopez]

No, I mean you and Davros. The witless abuse being key, not the Englishness.Well I can see the reference to my 'Englishness' but why Davros? Born in Ireland, two non-English parents. Besides, is his or my 'witless abuse' to do with living with English so long? Tad ironic also that you feel the need to do an 'Aragones' and flavour an insult with an adjective pertaining to ethnicity/nationality.

Indeed- as above I'm not complacent, and I don't think Mike nor most other NI fans are either. NI is a volatile society and that won't change overnight.
Agreed by everyone here.

As I've said before here, I disagree with that article, wouldn't have posted and suggested to others that they remove it. But I doubt the distinction is hard and fast as you claim. You've posted a good deal of abuse on here, barely any of it has been removed. That reflects on the site as well as you, as I've explained at length previously.
Perhaps it does, but I doubt it! This is a messageboard - not a fanzine. I edited a fanzine and I would not sanction articles that insult if I did not agree with them. I never posted gossip about any player of the Scum who was gay because I didn't agree with outing homosexuals even if they did a Michael Portillo. I did about a certain player snorting Cocaine and published the gossip (the same player was plastered over The Scum a month later).

The first two points are irrelevant if you're using them as an excuse for the witless abuse. The third may be true, but allowing personal abuse to remain on the site suggests otherwise, does it not?
Disagree. They are relevant. If an Irish rugby fanzine hailed Ireland's Ulster players one minute then followed up with anti-British abuse the next it smacks of hypocrisy. As I've said, I'm not encouraging English people to either follow or play for Ireland although if that's what takes their fancy and they don't behave like some of their fellow countrymen, then that's fine.

I doubt that- others, just as rude as you and including plenty expressing nationalist views- stay on. I imagine many on OWC would say 'let the muppet reveal his own prejudices', or similar.

Of course if I was the moderator, you'd be censored. You know why.As you'd say pull the other one. Well the point about the muppet and his prejudices is a good one because that is the reason you'll never see men engage in chit-chat on OWM. I too prefer to see the muppets there continue to wallow in their own prejudices. Seeing your reaction to my post on Wednesday (even emailing me with comments about my Englishness) though not directed at you, the account would be closed in no time. I hit a few sore spots with FFA, backed up with evidence. I also told Mike to F*ck off because he had resorted to swearing at me. Don't like it? OWM is there for you instead.

No, the phone call was from Rathcoole, an area sadly unwelcoming to 'Taigs'. Assume the caller was a unionist.Of course I assumed the caller was a 'unionist.' Tell that to the posters (including the Army groupie) who thinks that RC involvement was possible.

No. That's the Sunday Life. Ireland on Sunday is RoI based.Apologies there. But there were other articles in the BT papers that were equally damning and some would suggest economical with the truth. Eg:R.I.P - NI football: Is this the legacy we want to leave future generations? Sunday Life 25 August 2002. The article states with the usual melodramatic crap of its mainland counterparts that: 'First they drove away the Catholic supporters, then most of the Protestant supporters. Then they threatened to kill a Catholic player and soon no Catholics wanted to play for us ever again.' Who? 'Protestants? But why would Protestants want to destroy Northern Ireland football?' Bit of a generalisation and as we both know false, but one from a unionist paper - no doubt looking to take ground from IoS or other nationalist rags. There's more if that is insufficient.

He hasn't been anywhere as sanctimonious as you- even if it was easy to say, his opinion is mainstream, shared by an unholy alliance including El Pais, Marca, most British and Irish papers, Davros and Blatter! He (Boyd) knows perfectly well that were similar events to occur in Belfast in future, closure of Windsor is a possibility. Don't forget we have plenty of experience of this, in living memory...The mainstream view is that racism is unacceptable. Also plenty of people agree with my view that its laughable that the Tans are getting all hot and bothered about monkey noises when they gave the world this disgusting chant. Take this: 'The biggest thing for me is the hypocrisy of the people who were around 10 or 15 years ago when this was going on in English football. Why weren't they saying anything then? (John Motson or whoever was commentating on the England v Holland game of 1988 who claimed Gullit was just being barracked, perhaps?) Is it just politically correct to be doing it now? And the problem runs much deeper than just chanting. So deep, it's almost unfathomable...all racists have to do is keep their mouth shut for 90 minutes and they're fine. It's good that people are talking about it, but it's how they're talking. Let's not believe that we are much better in this country.' Any guesses for who wrote that in last Sunday's Observer? Clue: He's not a sanctimonious pr*ck whose own experience of racism is a couple of Kerryman jokes, but he did once manage (f*cking woefully if I remember, but Davros will fill you in on that one) that great racist club with its racist support whose name we dare not mention here unless it's to slag it off.

No, legislation is similar, though not identical. This summary is useful,

http://www.nio.gov.uk/rcsummary.pdf
Unfortunately I'm getting patches of the pdf (something wrong with my computer). If you are claiming that anti-sectarian legislation already existed then why didn't the IFA hit the supporters with expulsion and possibly prosecution as Blackburn Rovers did this week? One simple act and then it would be impossible then to suggest that the IFA's Football For All was meaningless. Fear of fan backlash? Fear of paramilitary backlash? Or just that FFA was all talk and little action. Anyway Boyd himself disagrees and claims in http://www.totalfootballmagazine.com/4all.html that: 'In Scotland the Government are now actively supporting Rangers and Celtic in their initiatives to tackle sectarianism. A cross party Bigotry Task Force has been set up to address the issues and formulate new legislation to support the clubs in their battle against bigotry...It would be great if the "Football For All" campaign in Northern Ireland were getting similar support.' This suggests that the law is currently poor on prosecution although as a private establishment the IFA could in conjunction with Linfield FC have thrown out who they liked from WP that day.

BTW, when I meant the Prison Service I did not mean Blunkett and co. sanctions putting prisoners at risk. Thought that was obvious! Neither did the FEF sanction the monkey chants in Madrid but that hasn't stopped you claiming they're responsible for it. Libel? I can't wait!

[Duncan Gardner]

is his or my 'witless abuse' to do with living with English so long? Tad ironic also that you feel the need to do an 'Aragones' and flavour an insult with an adjective pertaining to ethnicity/nationality

Do keep up. I explained the abuse was key, not the Englishness. I don't know why you're both so abusive- merely trying to persuade you to back off. It was just a cheap dig- though not quite as crude as yours passim, nor your incoherent protege's.

Perhaps it does, but I doubt it! This is a messageboard - not a fanzine

I don't doubt it (ie, that abusive posters reflect on the site as a whole). They're not qualitatively different. What was your mag called? I might have read it.

Disagree. They are relevant

They aren't. You're using your claimed lack of hypocrisy justifies ranting abusively. It doesn't. You refer to completely separate issues, but in any case abuse should be condemned per se.

Seeing your reaction to my post on Wednesday (even emailing me with comments about my Englishness) though not directed at you, the account would be closed in no time. I hit a few sore spots with FFA, backed up with evidence

Disagree- you'd probably be tolerated unless I was back in the censor's chair. Unprovable either way, perhaps.While you clearly riled Mike, I don't buy your dismissal of FFA as meaningless (and nor do you, I suspect). The evidence that it's meaningful is pretty obvious in the improved atmosphere at games. Like you, I probably would have named and shamed. Only after discussion with m'learned friends, though...

If I wasn't censoring, it's a complete non sequitur for you to assume you'd be kicked off. My reference to your Englishness has touched more of a raw nerve than I expected- I thought a tough nut like you would laugh it off. Lighten up, man.

Tell that to the posters (including the Army groupie) who thinks that RC involvement was possible

Oh, I have.

the usual melodramatic crap of its mainland counterparts

Agreed. The Bellylaugh papers aren't my local favorites- the Irish News news coverage is better. Since I've been reading it, the BT has gained a larger nationalist readership, partly by a deliberately anodyne line on party politics. They've been helped by the long-term parochial nature of the Irish media- readers in Belfast and Cork prefer their own papers, or even the Brit tabloids, to relying on those from Dublin.

its laughable that the Tans are getting all hot and bothered about monkey noises when they gave the world this disgusting chant

For God's sake man, give over about the bloody 'Tans' for a minute. Do you really think the entire English nation is forever prevented from criticising racism? Or that those with racist attitudes can't overcome them? Generalised and unduly negative both.

he did once manage (f*cking woefully if I remember, but Davros will fill you in on that one) that great racist club with its racist support whose name we dare not mention here unless it's to slag it off

I saw him last month- playing tennis in Paddington Park. Weak backhand. His comments are fair.

If you are claiming that anti-sectarian legislation already existed then why didn't the IFA hit the supporters with expulsion and possibly prosecution as Blackburn Rovers did this week

I imagine two of the reasons you suggested- fear of reaction from some fans and politicians (using the latter term loosely). Legislation is defintely in place.

Anyway Boyd himself disagrees... [and] suggests that the law is currently poor on prosecution, although as a private establishment the IFA could in conjunction with Linfield FC have thrown out who they liked from WP that day

I'm confident existing laws are sufficient (even I'm not completely censorious!). Agreed action against the 'Lennon 100' was inadequate, and as you hint Boyd is a little disingenuous. As a spokesman for the IFA, he/they could have pushed a prosecution.

BTW, when I meant the Prison Service I did not mean Blunkett and co. sanctions putting prisoners at risk

Never said you did. I was merely advising against blaming the unknown screw, instead of Stewart or at a pinch Blunkett, for Mubarek's murder.

Neither did the FEF sanction the monkey chants in Madrid but that hasn't stopped you claiming they're responsible for it. Libel? I can't wait!

They're responsible only in the broad sense that crimes were allegedly committed at an event administered by them. They would be punished in the similarly broad sense that the public would be excluded, and thus their income reduced, from a future, similar event. And hints in the Spanish media suggest they will accept this, as I said. Nothing I said about the FEF could be considered libellous- unlike your comments about Feltham.

[lopez]

Do keep up. I explained the abuse was key, not the Englishness. I don't know why you're both so abusive- merely trying to persuade you to back off. It was just a cheap dig- though not quite as crude as yours passim, nor your incoherent protege's.
Passim this. Where have I referred to you in such terms? Eg: 'Orange' (put in here any number of terms of abuse).

What was your mag called? I might have read it.
On The One Road. Limited circulation ('The London Irish Fanzine' it was subtitled) but I was told it was a top seller by the boys at Sportspages (I rarely got any returns).

If I wasn't censoring, it's a complete non sequitur for you to assume you'd be kicked off.
Yeah, yeah. It's a non whatever to presume you will ever have to worry about that.

My reference to your Englishness has touched more of a raw nerve than I expected- I thought a tough nut like you would laugh it off. Lighten up, man.
Lordy, the scales from my eyes have fallen. After my formative years were spent with my neighbours and their parents, teachers, and nearly all of my school colleagues pointing out the difference in me from them (much of it abusive), your kind words changes everything. I feel like Winston Smith in the final scene of 1984: 'I gaze up at the St George's cross. Fourty years it has taken me to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath that flag. Oh cruel, needless misunderstanding. Oh stubborn self-willed exile from the loving breast! But it is alright, everything is alright, the struggle is finished. I have won the victory over myself. I love David Beckham!' (Cue gin-scented tears to trickle down my face). :rolleyes: It's hilarious. And you being so faux liberal about Aragones too. As Davros would put it: Pompous.

Oh, I have.
And is that why you are no longer a mod on OWM? Did you also tell Dog Sh*te off about calling us Scum for allowing people the right to play for their country? Don't remember that on the thread that he ran about the article on OWM. I do remember Army Groupie and Marcellus trying to turn me over on here (and looking like a couple of w*nkers in the process) while you went about complaining to dahamsta about getting me censored. Now OK, I might not agree with my 'incoherent protege' all the time and him likewise with me, and we both might keep quiet about it on here. But I'd be damned if I'd go on OWM to stand up for him if I disagreed with his remarks about 'integrate or...' nor would I seek to get anyone taking him to task censored. More 'pomposity,' er.

For God's sake man, give over about the bloody 'Tans' for a minute.
What's the problem DG? Why so upset about this so-called Brit-bashing (where's the reference to Wales and Scotland as scum)? I could understand it if it was PP or Pat O'Banton (or anyone with English partners or relatives) who were taking it personally. But not you. Save the mock disgust, mate. You wouldn't be upset if I went on about the Germans as Krauts, nor if I stated that the FAI were scum who the IFA should have nothing to do with (copyright: Dog Breath). Is it as Sylvo says? You feel inadequate that you weren't born in England and therefore merely a Plastic Brit because of it. And angry that I was born in England and yet I threw away what you consider is the winning ticket in the lottery of nationality.

Do you really think the entire English nation is forever prevented from criticising racism? Or that those with racist attitudes can't overcome them? Generalised and unduly negative both.
Criticising? No. I'm sure I told you about the skinhead from school (responsible for the aforementioned broken teeth of a Pakistani who had moved out to the Hertfordshire tranquillity from bad old Thornton Heath) I saw in later years in Gateway one day, so yes racists sometimes do reform. Lecturing? The tans can f*ck off out of it. Latest laugh I've had is some Labour spin doctor telling the Germans to stop talking about the war. You couldn't make it up!

I saw him last month- playing tennis in Paddington Park. Weak backhand. His comments are fair.
Bar the pro-Spanish bias and the reference to the scum and tans (abuse as you label it all), I've said the same over the last week. He used to live not far from where I lived in the eighties/early nineties - always saw him early Monday morning in the Tans' track suit and a bag with JB in large letters (obviously keeping a low profile) at the station making his way up to Merseyside. Perhaps that's why we agree on so much.

I'm confident existing laws are sufficient (even I'm not completely censorious!). Agreed action against the 'Lennon 100' was inadequate, and as you hint Boyd is a little disingenuous. As a spokesman for the IF, he/they could have pushed a prosecution.
And so I rest my case re FFA.

BTW: Tales from The Underground still visible at http://www.ourweecountry.co.uk/worldcup02.html . They sure take a lot of notice of you, mate! :D :D

[Duncan Gardner]

Where have I referred to you in such terms?

You haven't described me as English scum, ta. I don't have to be personally targetted to be irritated by abuse.

On The One Road. Limited circulation ('The London Irish Fanzine' it was subtitled) but I was told it was a top seller by the boys at Sportspages

Yes, I remember reading it- a good mag. Any archive copies in the loft?

It's a non whatever...passim this

Sorry for the Latin namedropping. Give Jus sanguinis my regards...

your kind words changes everything

My pleasure, yer sarky bugger

Did you also tell Dog Sh*te off about calling us Scum for allowing people the right to play for their country?

Yes, repeatedly. My attitude is clear and oft-stated,

a) if nationalists or unionists in NI want to support RoI, or anyone else, that's fine

b) personal abuse and libels should be deleted from web boards

But I'd be damned if I'd go on OWM to stand up for him if I disagreed with his remarks about 'integrate or...' nor would I seek to get anyone taking him to task censored. More 'pomposity,' er

Guilty as charged. But since you're as self-righteous as I am, and he's far worse, what of it?

Why so upset about this so-called Brit-bashing...save the mock disgust, mate.

Because it's often abusive, and as so repetitive over hundreds of threads, tiresome. It's irritation, not disgust. I've heard a lot worse.

You wouldn't be upset if I went on about the Germans as Krauts

I'd be equally irritated.

Is it as Sylvo says? You feel inadequate that you weren't born in England

I only feel slightly disappointed that I wasn't born in Turkey, travelling there aged two months. But hey, I'm over it.

The tans can f*ck off out of it

What, all 50 million of them? Yawn.

And so I rest my case re FFA

It continues even if your case doesn't. Never mind, I'm sure we can find summat else to discuss.

They sure take a lot of notice of you, mate!

Alas, a voice in the wilderness can be a difficult job sometimes :)

You've written plenty of libellous stuff

Quote it, then.

Everyone knows Mubarek was a racist murder...ask Alex

Indeed. I acknowledge it was a racist murder. My point, made quite clearly, was that throwing about general accusations that the Prison Service/ Home Office was responsible for the murder, was libellous.

[lopez]

You haven't described me as English scum, ta. I don't have to be personally targetted to be irritated by abuse.
I haven't described you as British scum either.

Yes, I remember reading it- a good mag. Any archive copies in the loft?
Muchas gracias! It needed more of your like (sarky rather than orange buggers) to beef it up a bit.

Sorry for the Latin namedropping. Give Jus sanguinis my regards...
Oh touché.

Because it's often abusive, and as so repetitive over hundreds of threads, tiresome. It's irritation, not disgust. I've heard a lot worse.
That's the aim of it.

I'd be equally irritated.
Pull the other one, Hans!

I only feel slightly disappointed that I wasn't born in Turkey, travelling there aged two months. But hey, I'm over it.
And you'd be selling kebabs now while on the minimum wage? I wouldn't count on being born in Turkey would make you Turkish. Countries in that region are notorious for a spot of 'jus sanguinis.'

What, all 50 million of them? Yawn.
Just the sanctimonious ones and those that watch 'I'm a celebrity...' Good night and sweet dreams!

[Duncan Gardner]

Zzzzz :D

[Pat O' Banton]

Just a further pointer on the Prison Service and its attitude towards non natives. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-640931,00.html . There are further alligations by former prisioners that there are more to some of the deaths then suicide.

Does Judy Clements comments exonerate the good Senor?


The Irish Chaplancy for Overseas Prisoners and Irish Deaths in Custody do a lot of good work around these issues.

[Duncan Gardner]

a young Asian thief gets deliberately put inside a cell with a known violent racist by prison staff and ends up murdered. Unless the staff were mentally handicapped I can only think that the intention was for one of the two prisoners to kill the other


an earlier inquiry by Judy Clements, the Prison Service’s race equality adviser, had concluded that Brixton was institutionally racist and that a small number of staff had exhibited sustained racist behaviour, especially towards black prisoners


Does Judy Clements comments exonerate the good Senor?

No. Lopez accuses the prison staff of, effectively, conspiracy to murder. At the very least I think you'd agree that's over the top?

[Pat O' Banton]

No. Lopez accuses the prison staff of, effectively, conspiracy to murder. At the very least I think you'd agree that's over the top?

Can't download quotes from the Irish World as I do not have PDF but I seem to remember Irish prisoners accusing members of the prison service of exactly that.

[lopez]

No. Lopez accuses the prison staff of, effectively, conspiracy to murder. At the very least I think you'd agree that's over the top?You are right DG. This is me going over the top. Not because I think this is untrue but that I stated it without having evidence and just on my own opinion in regards to racism in British society being more than just footballers being abused. Proving such an allegation is going to be difficult, but then libel is also difficult to prove (rich man's sport and all that). I could argue that this is 'fair comment'. That the evidence suggests that Asian put in with racist suggests neglect or malice. It's all depressing to think that there are still these allegations when the Police (in London at least) have made great strides in ridding its 'institutionally' racist tag.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Good call by the good Senor.....Br*tain still institutionally racist......Sh*t happens.....

Recently interviewed on Newstalk106 an Irish born ex London Policeman.
Says the force is populated by a lot of BNP and Combat 18 types.
In spite of efforts to make the training sensitive to minorities and other ethnic groupings in England, it seems to have failed . The trainees are told by their supervisors, when they arrive to work for the first time" ignore all that crap , this is how it is done!". Officers frequently distribute racist literature from the BNP and Combat 18 without any sanctions.

[MikeNI]

Morning Mike. Nice to see that you've calmed down a bit today!

And without resort to Asian Babes I may add! Been a few days since I've been on but here goes...


I've seen the new WP. Yes the atmosphere is fantastic (no sarcasm intended) but it does not mean that sectarianism has been eradicated should certain events arise (visit of the Republic, a NI player who plays for Celtic, a player with political leanings in his spare time towards a party led by a bloke with a beard).

I think if the Republic were to visit, there could potentially be some of the problems of old, but not on anything like the same scale as yesteryear. And as a point of order, the last time a Celtic player played for NI, Neil Lennon against the Czech Republic, there were no problems.



Found issue May '96 this morning although I'm sure I had others. I had brief dealings with Dr. Wa who sent me a copy when he started up when I edited a fanzine and I gave A...A! a review.

First issue the good doctor gave me my own column rather than being just another letter writer!



And then they allow the aforementioned article to be published. It's one thing that individuals use various insults on a message board, another for the web site/fanzine to sanction an article. Arguing that the article had nothing to do with them is laughable.

Having met the writer concerned, he's most definitely not a bigot. Pretty scathing of the DUP and the religios influence in NI society, as it happens.



I'm not trying to get English people to go to Irish games. Neither do I want people who consider themselves English to play for Ireland.[/lopez]

There's a few Englishmen on the RoI team though. And indeed a fair smattering of English people supporting the RoI. BTW I don't think anyone's insulting people who we want to support NI either.

[quote=lopez]If I came onto OWC and started kicking off the way you (and the two clowns at the beginning of the year) did I'd be banned quicker than I could say 'Football For All.'

All I'm arguing about is defending the record of the FFA campaign. If you went on OWC to argue the FAI was being unfairly criticised, I don't think you'de be banned, far from it.



Michael Boyd (like the British sanctimonious tabloids) should show a little more humility when talking about this subject. He wouldn't have wanted WP shut down for the sake of 100 people or the far greater number abusing the Republic players in 1994 and neither can I presume, would you. Surely he would be better suited in saying: 'We have made great strides in eliminating sectarianism and bigotry from our games. I am getting in touch with the FEF in conjunction with UEFA and FIFA and briefing them on the ideas, strategies and schemes that have helped bring back a carnival atmosphere to Windsor Park.' (I should be in PR :D ) But instead he goes all high and mighty while there is no concrete proof that sectarianism will not return in his own domain.

I accept what you say up to a point as it's not a good idea to be preeaching about what isn't a parallel situation. Though I think saying "There is no concerte proof sectarianism will not return" is disingenuous - not only can you not 'prove' a negative, you can't 'prove' anything that may or may not happen in the future.

By the way I'm not entirely sure 'local' bigotries should necessarily be treated in exactly the same way as 'universal' bigotries such as anti-black racism. For example, it would be a tough one to say UEFA should treat the various reported ethnic 'tenions' (to repsort to a euphemism) at the recent Bosnia-Serbia match the same as monkey noises aimed at black players.



I disagree with it being wrong to bring NI flags to NI games. But what's the problem with bringing flags that represent both communities to NI games, apart from the old rubbish that the Irish tricolour being the flag of just the 26 counties. It means more than that to Northern nationalists. [/lopez]

I wouldn't go along with it simply because the flag is there to represent the state not my community. It would be ludicrous to represent NI with not only the NI flag but that of the RoI (yes I know to northern nationalists it's their flag but as far as international law and indeed international football go, it's the flag of the RoI). Of course I know nationalists wouldn't identify with the NI flag and maybe NI should have a new one, though that's a matter for the politicians. By the way, I wouldn't want someone to bring a Union Flag to NI matches either (and it is actually the official flag of NI).

Would you want Turkish flags alongside Cyprus flags at Cyprus matches? Palestinian flags alongside Israeli flags at Israel matches? Serbian flags alongside Bosnia flags at Bosnia matches?


[quote=lopez]And this is where FFA fails. As I've said, I don't blame the IFA themselves for bigotry and I'll explain why. They operated for year's under a regime that encouraged sectarian discrimination in all public areas. It needed the initiative for eliminating sectarianism to come from outside (fans, media, sponsorship) otherwise it risked alienating many of its own fans.

I don't think that's accurate. THe IFA didn't do much because they were a bunch of old grey men plagued by inertia and incompetence.


The lack of any legislation (as there is in Britain and Ireland) for inciting hatred may be absent from NI (unless that incitement comes from waving the Irish tricolour and other 'flags' and 'emblems').

As Duncan says, there is incitement to hatred legislation in NI. And the Flags and Emblems Act has been gone for many years now.


The presence of a lack of this kind of sanction undermines that FFA was responsible for the reduction in sectarianism and that this reduction could have been down to other factors like the press, UEFA threats, RC players threatening to withdraw from the side and as you state peer pressure from other fans.

I think the eradication of sectarianism was competely 100% down to the efforts of fans allied with the official FFA campaign. The iodiots who sang sectarian songs would in no way have been influenced by criticism in the papers or by 'UEFA threats' (which as far as I can remember didn't exist).



I never said that the elimination of sectarianism was meaningless, just that this particular programme is not as successful as you claim. Davros, for all his winding-up, makes the statement that sectarianism cannot be eliminated if it is rampant in the wider society. Since the GFA the division of RCs and Protestants has some ways increased (the Holy Cross incident the most high profile). In such a society it's dangerous for someone like Boyd to get complacent.

Considering the state of Northern Irish society, I think this just shows the extent of the achievement at NI matches.


Another thing I should point out is that FFA hasn't just been concerned with the 'sectarian' issue - it has also been about getting women, the disabled and those with learning difficulties involed in football. THere are now several disabled/learning difficulty NI teams. Also, crucially at a time when ethnic minorities face problems with acceptance in NI society, there has been some important work among minority ethnic communities and asylum seekers. The cheering to the rafters of the NI Chinese team at half-time during a recent match for example could also serve asmessage to certain people not a million miles away.

[MikeNI]

Btw,You can only be Irish or British;Not Both,FFS!

Tut tut, who hasn't been reading the Good Friday Agreement: "the birthright of all of the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose." :)

[eoinh]

Mike, I wouldnt even try arguing with them.

Just start getting your excuses in order after City turn ye over in the Setanta Cup. :)

[sylvo]

Was he there after the Mosaic Project introduced in the wake of the Stephen Lawrence enquiry?


Do you think the mosiac report has made an improvement then to mr Police man's dealing with the black and Asian community?

[lopez]

And without resort to Asian Babes I may add! Been a few days since I've been on but here goes...
Asian Babes is for the less mature palate, but I get your drift.

I think if the Republic were to visit, there could potentially be some of the problems of old, but not on anything like the same scale as yesteryear. And as a point of order, the last time a Celtic player played for NI, Neil Lennon against the Czech Republic, there were no problems.
I disagree. I think the Republic's visit would be a major problem. Not only from the knobheads on your side of the 'political divide' but on ours. An open sale of tickets with a large intake from Belfast nationalists supporting the Republic would inevitably lead to trouble. With this in mind and even with the return to normality, I can't see both associations agreeing to taking up their normal ticket allocations (or playing the other's anthems) at a future game.

First issue the good doctor gave me my own column rather than being just another letter writer!
A fanzine editor's dream. Always good when someone offers decent copy to take the workload off you.

Having met the writer concerned, he's most definitely not a bigot. Pretty scathing of the DUP and the religios influence in NI society, as it happens.
Well as they say: 'One man's bigot is another man's moderate.' I'm sure there are numerous people who would claim I'm not a bigot but that isn't going to wash with you, DG nor the residents of OWC. Save the anti-clericalism as a sign of moderateness. The conflict in NI - despite the intervention of some of the Bob Jones graduates - is about nationalism not religion. Religion gets the blame - certainly on this side of the Irish sea - for the troubles while good ol' nationalism doesn't get a mention. In a way OWC is a mirror of the republican philosophy. We don't hate Protestants: Just their culture and desire to be British. Hence the beard's: 'They're our people.' Meaning they're Irish whether they like it or not and a desire to be British is treason. Replace Protestants with Catholics and British with Irish and you have the same with some of the posters on OWC.

There's a few Englishmen on the RoI team though. And indeed a fair smattering of English people supporting the RoI. BTW I don't think anyone's insulting people who we want to support NI either.
Well I'm not going to argue about some of the players that have played for Ireland, but I doubt that the fans with English accents or having being born in England would consider themselves English. It's not being 'treacherous', 'Brit-bashing', etc. Most of us have two Irish parents. If we were 2G Italians or Asians there'd be no problem. And besides the automatic connection between birth and nationality was dumped by the British government in 1981. Something to do with too many blacks in the country.

As for insulting people who want to support the North, then I disagree. The implication is that NI catholics are supporting the Republic because they are glory-hunters and that they are treacherous. With such a fickle community of Sports fans, the Kerry, Dublin and Meath Gaelic football team must have had great support in the North prior to the recent Ulster dominance? There wasn't. Following the Republic is a reaction to the bigotry at NI games and a rejection of the Union. As a kid I followed Northern Ireland in the Home Internationals as an Irish team. Many others would agree with me here. It was only the connection with anti-nationalism that made me stop.

Many NI fans - perhaps most - accept this but there are some still left that find it hard to stomach. The placement of British Army paraphernalia - responsible for the death of 148 nationalist civilians between 1969 and 1989 (25 Protestants killed in the same period) - on the OWC home page by the editor at the beginning of GW2 is the best example of this.

All I'm arguing about is defending the record of the FFA campaign. If you went on OWC to argue the FAI was being unfairly criticised, I don't think you'de be banned, far from it.
Well I'm not a great fan of the FAI. I used to produce a spoof letter from an A Moron every issue which was particularly scathing, but I take your point. Anyway, the way you are putting your arguments at the moment - without abuse - is welcome.

I accept what you say up to a point as it's not a good idea to be preeaching about what isn't a parallel situation. Though I think saying "There is no concerte proof sectarianism will not return" is disingenuous - not only can you not 'prove' a negative, you can't 'prove' anything that may or may not happen in the future.
True, I can't prove the future but I can certainly play Devil's advocate. For the clues you need to look around at society in Ireland. For instance have the 'peace' lines disappeared? Are there mixed council estates where people live together in relative harmony as they do in London or Manchester?

By the way I'm not entirely sure 'local' bigotries should necessarily be treated in exactly the same way as 'universal' bigotries such as anti-black racism. For example, it would be a tough one to say UEFA should treat the various reported ethnic 'tenions' (to repsort to a euphemism) at the recent Bosnia-Serbia match the same as monkey noises aimed at black players.
To a certain extent these should be made exceptions. But also the associations themselves need to take responsibility with the matches themselves. Italy playing Slovenia in Trieste a couple of years ago was as plain stupid as the IFA moving a match with the South to Derry or Portadown. Giving an allocation to visiting supporters is another. On the other hand it lets the Scum off the hook for what happened here in 1995. Nor should 'domestics' (as with Lennon and Anton Rogan before him) be excused either.

Would you want Turkish flags alongside Cyprus flags at Cyprus matches? Palestinian flags alongside Israeli flags at Israel matches? Serbian flags alongside Bosnia flags at Bosnia matches?
I think in the case of Cyprus and Bosnia, Why not? Although it might not work, the idea that it promoted some form of unity - if only for 90 minutes - is welcome, no? Ditto for the Irish rugby team, where (as I've said I've seen NI flags there) it works among its supporters. The team is representative of two communities or nations, whatever way you look at it. It should be represented as thus, with both the NI (or Fitzgerald saltire to represent the British 'tradition' throughout Ireland not just in the 6C or Ulster) and the tricolour at it's games. I've also been to a few Spain matches and there's always an acceptance of regional flags. Ireland's visit to Seville witnessed numerous Green and White Andalusian flags being flown in both ends. Basque and Catalan flags are also regularly seen at their games, even though these flags are both hijacked by separatists. I would have thought that people getting behind the team is the most important thing regardless of what flag they bring along.


I don't think that's accurate. The IFA didn't do much because they were a bunch of old grey men plagued by inertia and incompetence.
It's ironic that I'm defending the IFA here. I've been reading a history of the Irish in Glasgow and it mentions Pat Crerand accusing the SFA of picking Rangers players ahead of other players (Catholics) of superior quality. Can you state where this has happened with the IFA? One thing is amateurs or second-rate businessmen out of their depth. Another is bigotry as personified in the future NI prime minister, Basil Brooke's, 1933 and 1934 speeches at Newtownbutler, Derry and Enniskillen in which he urged 'loyalists' only employ Protestants. I don't think the IFA ever followed his advice.

Another thing I should point out is that FFA hasn't just been concerned with the 'sectarian' issue - it has also been about getting women, the disabled and those with learning difficulties involed in football. THere are now several disabled/learning difficulty NI teams.
There have been 'disabled' representative teams for a long time but I think these were on all on an 32C basis. The Irish deaf football team came second in the World at the 1989 World Deaf Games (Britain won) and was captained by a bloke from (I think) Fermanagh called Niall Fearon. I met him on a few occasions as he worked in the City of London and he was once with another player from the team who was a Protestant from the North. Besides 'Football For All' should be more than filling WP.

[eoinh]

Accept they can be Br*ts if they want :eek: ......but not both ......that's a laughable fudge,worthy of only contempt.........unless of course they hold both passports......reckon < than 1000 people worldwide?If the planters are so keen on being 'Irish',why dont they Integrate,FFS?

LOL

In 2000 there were 600,000 people resident in the Republic who hold British passports the vast majority of whom hold Irish passports as well.

Loads of Irish people are dual nationals of other countries as well.

Irish-Australian, Irish-South African etc.

Indeed many people hold more than two nationalities. Margaret hussan who was so recently brutually murdered in Iraq was a joint Irish, British and Iraqi citizen.

[Junior]

LOL

In 2000 there were 600,000 people resident in the Republic who hold British passports the vast majority of whom hold Irish passports as well.

Loads of Irish people are dual nationals of other countries as well.

Irish-Australian, Irish-South African etc.

Indeed many people hold more than two nationalities. Margaret hussan who was so recently brutually murdered in Iraq was a joint Irish, British and Iraqi citizen.

I have to say I find it astonishing that 15% of the Republics population hold Irish/British - Dual nationalities.

Im not saying I don't believe it, just would never have guessed it - do you have a source to your stats. (By the way Dav I know you haven't so I won't bother asking you!! :D )

[eoinh]

Im not saying I don't believe it, just would never have guessed it - do you have a source to your stats. (By the way Dav I know you haven't so I won't bother asking you!! :D )


Well for instance of the ten other people where I work, three hold dual nationality. There is a reference here (http://www.reform.org/pr091000.htm)

They are all people whose parents had moved from Ireland to Britain.

Approximately 100 Irish people living in Britain take out British citizenship every year. In the 60's it was about 700 a year.

Actually for those people who feel in their heart and soul they are British check out (http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/Treaties/citizenship.htm)

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well for instance of the ten other people where I work, three hold dual nationality. There is a reference here (http://www.reform.org/pr091000.htm)

They are all people whose parents had moved from Ireland to Britain.

Approximately 100 Irish people living in Britain take out British citizenship every year. In the 60's it was about 700 a year.

Actually for those people who feel in their heart and soul they are British check out (http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/Treaties/citizenship.htm)

Ok The results of the 2002 census for the Republic of Ireland are available on www.cso.ie and there are a load of different tables covering these very areas we have been debating!

[lopez]

I have to say I find it astonishing that 15% of the Republics population hold Irish/British - Dual nationalities.

Im not saying I don't believe it, just would never have guessed it - do you have a source to your stats. (By the way Dav I know you haven't so I won't bother asking you!! :D )Personally, the figures don't add up. On the one hand the (relatively meaningless) status of being a British 'subject' is passed on no further than the 2G, while those taking up British citizenship in Britain (in which, unlike Germans or Spaniards, they do not lose their citizenship and cannot be deemed as a wholehearted embracement of Britishness) would all have to return to Ireland to make up the numbers quoted. The figure of 100 Irish people a year - in comparison to those that migrated up until recent times - is quite pathetic. The only reason to mention it is to reiterate how few Irish people take British citizenship, an issue which the Reform (sic.) Movement demands should be extended to everyone in Ireland.

Try comparing it with this: My son's Foreign Births Certificate (these are only needed for Irish citizenship when both your parents are born outside Ireland) number is 8*** and is dated June 1994. My eldest daughter's is 19*** and is dated March 1998. 11,515 documents were given to 3G (a status that the British won't even consider granting citizenship to) Irish citizens in the Irish embassy London alone in less than four years. Between my eldest daughter and my youngest (her FBC was issued in March 1999) there were 7,112 issued in just one year. FBC by the way are not handed out like Guinness mats on St Patrick's day, as the critics of our foreign born footballers like to joke. They cost me about €60 for the last one I got. More importantly, they are a real hassle because they officially take 3 to 6 months to issue. Despite the obvious trouble, 70 times more were issued in a 12 month period between 1998 and 1999 to 3G Irish citizens from one embassy (there are consulates elsewhere in Britain) than British citizenship was issued to Irish people as a whole.

I'd like you to consider what is the agenda of the RM. Sounds to me they clearly wish for the 26C to return to the sh*te and discredited status it had between 1801 and 1922 and to which it has only just recovered. Far from the Republic facing 'up to the reality that as a state it is closely linked to the United Kingdom socially, culturally and economically' it need do nothing of the sort. British citizens enjoy full rights including the right to vote. With the exception of language, Ireland's own social and cultural health (music and sport are two examples) are in better shape than most other countries and its economy (and its success) is not down to links to Britain but to Europe as a whole, something that the neo-imperialists of the RM are mysteriously silent on.

Either the number of 600K British passports is a figure of the imagination or it is made up of
i) British exiles in Ireland (Beleive there's quite a few moved to West Cork in recent years)
ii) British people (including those from the North) who for one thing or another got a passport in Dublin (students, temporary workers, tourists etc)
iii) 2G and 3G who were born in Britain and have gone to Ireland with their families.
iv) Certain Unionists from border counties.
iv) The negligible ammount of people born outside Ulster that feel British which includes those that got British citizenship while living in Britain.

BTW: For those that think that Protestants are the 'fifth collumn'/desperate for the British citizenship cruelly denied by successive weak-kneed London governments, may I recommend 'Untold Stories: Protestants in the Republic of Ireland, 1922-2002' by Lynne Adair which puts the 26C Protestant population in a different light. Or else you can discuss this with my good friend on here, Davros. :D

[Plastic Paddy]

Well for instance of the ten other people where I work, three hold dual nationality. There is a reference here (http://www.reform.org/pr091000.htm)

They are all people whose parents had moved from Ireland to Britain.

Approximately 100 Irish people living in Britain take out British citizenship every year. In the 60's it was about 700 a year.

Actually for those people who feel in their heart and soul they are British check out (http://www.reform.org/TheReformMovement_files/article_files/Treaties/citizenship.htm)

Between your straw poll and the rhetoric of the Reform Society, your numbers just don't add up Eoin. I'm not saying I entirely disagree with your point, just that your argument appears to carry little by way of veracity.

That said, Dav knows how I feel about his views. I don't think I could ever look any future fils de PP squarely in the face and tell him that he's not entitled to feel both Irish and British. Dav, me old mucker, 'tis the twenty-first century now. We're all moving on from the mutually-exclusive nation-state construct of identity. Look at your horizontal-tricolour-with-wheel for proof positive should this be required... :cool:

And on another point altogether, meself and the good lady Mrs PP were out walking today in Windsor Great Park when who should we see but Brenda, driving a Jag very fast down the Long Walk with bodyguards struggling to keep up. For a split second, I contemplated throwing myself onto the bonnet and suing the bitch for every last penny. Just to see what Claims Direct would have made of it all, like... :D

:D PP

[eoinh]

I shouldnt have put in the link to the reform society (whoever they are) as it really has no connection to the amount of Irish people living in Ireland who hold British citizenship.

The figure of 600,000 is propably an exageration. But the figure that Davros estmates (less than 1000) is obviously ludicrous.

It doesnt really bother me at all what the figure is. Most societies and country's are very rarely made up of one homogenous group. I would find that actually abnormal. If one group tries to dictate to another group what being Irish is then that will never work - (as we have found out). A fact also that needed to be sorted out in NI (you coudnt force people to be British if they didnt want to be), even Ian Paisley knows this now (I think).

[sylvo]

And on another point altogether, meself and the good lady Mrs PP were out walking today in Windsor Great Park when who should we see but Brenda, driving a Jag very fast down the Long Walk with bodyguards struggling to keep up. For a split second, I contemplated throwing myself onto the bonnet and suing the bitch for every last penny. Just to see what Claims Direct would have made of it all, like... :D

:D PP



PP between you and me and whoever else reads this on the net, i'm up for a bit of the compo culture with yer, how about you take a trip up to tanfield i'll be in a battered ould red van with jaggered hat logo on the side ;) going about 2mph with foot on the brake, you do yer best Michael Owen style dive infront of me company van and we'll share da booty out of the nice German lady's purse, plus i'll take a while off with stress.
OH come on you know you won't to. ;)

[lopez]

I shouldnt have put in the link to the reform society (whoever they are) as it really has no connection to the amount of Irish people living in Ireland who hold British citizenship.

The figure of 600,000 is propably an exageration. But the figure that Davros estmates (less than 1000) is obviously ludicrous.Of course Davros is being disingenuous about being British and Irish but he does quantify his remarks. As we have seen, it's not simple for someone born and living in Ireland and not having lived in Britain to get a British passport (which only entitles them to being a Subject).

As PP points out, Davros clearly feels partly Indian and I feel half Spanish even though I have not taken up the recently made offer of citizenship to foreign born children of Spanish women. The same is shared with those of mix British-Irish parentage. What I find irritating is people using Ireland as a (joint) nationality in some sort of argument, when in reality its merely a regional identity (cue Unionists) to which Irish nationalism (and nationalists) mean nothing.

I do have a little sympathy with the RM. In an all-Ireland state, those currently holding British citizenship in the 6C should have British nationality for ever - providing that link isn't broken which is the same with the FBC. But extending that right to all of Ireland is ridiculous. It's backdoor re-colonisation, unfair to other more 'loyal' but darker countries (those that didn't leave the commonwealth), and highly unlikely that the British will do it anyway. The Irish can always counter that their citizenship will be extended to everyone in Britain. There's certainly more, both percentage and pure numbers, of Irish descent than of British descent in Ireland and also it should improve the national team even further.

[lopez]

Ok The results of the 2002 census for the Republic of Ireland are available on www.cso.ie and there are a load of different tables covering these very areas we have been debating!Many thanks College.

Table M covers nationality in Ireland. There were on Census night 103.5K British citizens in the 26C with 49.3K dual Irish/other citizens. That means that 2.7% of the population of the Republic is British. A possible further 1.3% has dual nationality, but no one can seriously suggest that this number is solely made up of British duals. However look at table L: The percentage of the population of the 26C that was born under British jurisdiction is 6.4% (that includes 5.1% in Britain and 1.3% in Northern Ireland).

Source: http://www.cso.ie/census/pdr_comment.htm#mig

[eoinh]

You didnt take into account multiple nationality or not stated, Lopez.

[lopez]

There's a whopping .1% for multiple nationality which could mean Irish plus two other citizenships or British or US and other. As for not stated, perhaps these are the minority of Ireland that are just too scared to mention their true allegiances. Perhaps they just couldn't be a*sed answering (See also Religion (Table Q)) or are in the words of Aragones merely a 'citizen of the world'. I'm taking the view of the second view because that's what it seems like to me, especially as there is a section for Irish, UK, dual and multiple nationality for people to give a sepcific answer.