View Full Version : Ireland V Isreal Protest
Neish
17/11/2004, 12:18 PM
As a member of the Ireland Palestine solidarity campign, I have been made aware of the planned protest at the Ireland V Israel against the treatment of the Palestine people by Isreal's Goverment.
The plan is simply to carry palestine flags to the match and let it be known the disguast with the Isreal treatment of the Palestine people.
The Ireland Palestine under no circumstamnces condone the actions of Hamas or other such terorist groups.
Just wondered if there would be much interest in such a Protest?
Dublin12
17/11/2004, 12:39 PM
I can see where you're coming from but lets keep politics out of football
$Leon$
17/11/2004, 12:41 PM
if theres a protest its more likely to be against the fai rather than against the isreali governments treatment of the palestine people.
sorry for gettin ur hopes up
patsh
17/11/2004, 12:52 PM
I can see where you're coming from but lets keep politics out of footballHmmmm, OK, but then did Israel stop Palestinian players from travelling to a match for purely political reasons.......
Keep this kind of thing well away from our national team.
Whatever views you have on this particular issue, i think we'd all be agreed that having political protests at our international matches is a dangerous road to be going down.
corkharps
17/11/2004, 1:48 PM
Keep this kind of thing well away from our national team.
Whatever views you have on this particular issue, i think we'd all be agreed that having political protests at our international matches is a dangerous road to be going down.
I see your point,but do you remember the black armbands for the Princess of Wales? :o
As a member of the Ireland Palestine solidarity campign, I have been made aware of the planned protest at the Ireland V Israel against the treatment of the Palestine people by Isreal's Goverment.
The plan is simply to carry palestine flags to the match and let it be known the disguast with the Isreal treatment of the Palestine people.
The Ireland Palestine under no circumstamnces condone the actions of Hamas or other such terorist groups.
Just wondered if there would be much interest in such a Protest?
I'd be fully supportive of such a move, and would help out if i can at all. I think a banner saying "no to genocide" or something along those lines should also be held up during the israeli anthem, and the crowd should turn its back for the duration of that also.
Keep this kind of thing well away from our national team.
Whatever views you have on this particular issue, i think we'd all be agreed that having political protests at our international matches is a dangerous road to be going down.
balls to that. Just because the FAI and UEFA are too weak to confront murdering scum and ban them from sport like was done with south africa, doesn't mean we should lie down and let the israelis aay with it.
lads if its just waving palestein flags than its a legitimate mark of dissaproval for a repressive regime
go for it
just dont advertise it
fai security will kow tow to political correctness - ie any hint of controversy get the stewards to confiscate them
Dublin12
17/11/2004, 2:02 PM
So why didn't you come out then and protest when the Russians were in town over Chechnya ,and why not protest at the French game over the Ivory coast conflict :confused:
Metrostars
17/11/2004, 2:32 PM
What do Israeli soccer players have to do with the mistreatment of Palestinians? Go protest at the Iraeli Embassy. Keep politics out of soccer.
politics IS part of football - wars started over a game of football
peace broke out with a game of football (allegedly in ww1 at xmas)
rangers v celtic anyone? spose thats ok cos its just sectarianism?
nobody has any right to tell u what flag you can and cant wave at a football game
go for it
how is waving a Palestinian flag "hijacking" it?????
if people want to show solidarity with them and their plight thats there business
if people wanted to show solidarity with the nazis tehy would have done so at a game by now
they havent - guess it doesnt have much mass support so
What do Israeli soccer players have to do with the mistreatment of Palestinians? Go protest at the Iraeli Embassy. Keep politics out of soccer.
they represent a state who's official policy towards the palestinian people is one of genocide. South Africa were banned for apartheid, Israel should be banned too.
I just don't think a match should be 'hijacked' (forgive the choice of words) for a political purpose like this.
the fact that a state such as Israel is allowed to compete in international sporting events is a propaganda victory for their government in itself. so the politicisation is already there
stickyjoe
17/11/2004, 2:48 PM
this match is about getting 3 points off the israelis. if you want to make a protest p*ss off to the israeli embassy and stay away from landsdowne road
Dublin12
17/11/2004, 2:58 PM
Go to the airport when the players come through,do it there but stay away from the game,it could affect our team aswell you know.
Yeah, there's no place for it at an Ireland match.
Protest all ye like but do it somewhere else.
I think protests should be kept out of the ground as who says what protest is valid or not then. Fair enough if want to make your point outside.
Protest I say
and fck the begrudgers/dogooders
there's plenty of place for it, and landsdowne road is as good a place as any for it.
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is appalling - but they only get away with it because the Americans are there to support them.
The trouble with taking Palestinian flags is that the media will just assume that it's Northern sectarianism spread to here. A friend from east Belfast was telling me on Monday that the Loyalist areas have Israeli flags and the Republican ones have Palestinian flags.
The human rights record of some of the African countries is even grimmer, but no-one ever says throw them out, didn't Ireland play Nigeria in London?.
We should be consistent.
but isnt being always inconsistent a type of consistency?
and typically irish
liam88
17/11/2004, 6:14 PM
The trouble with taking Palestinian flags is that the media will just assume that it's Northern sectarianism spread to here. A friend from east Belfast was telling me on Monday that the Loyalist areas have Israeli flags and the Republican ones have Palestinian flags.
Aye there used to be a Palestinian flag above the Free Derry sign....pretty sure it's down now, also rumors of a tri at Arafats funeral :eek:
jofyisgod
17/11/2004, 6:22 PM
Go for it, definitely.All i'd say is keep to the flags, no chants,etc. This is all about the Ireland team, but it is a great chance to generate some POSITIVE publicity for a severly under-represented people.
Go for it, definitely.All i'd say is keep to the flags, no chants,etc. This is all about the Ireland team, but it is a great chance to generate some POSITIVE publicity for a severly under-represented people.
well said. I don't want any chanting or anything during the game. but during the israeli anthem, it will make a point, then we can get back to the game
Docboy
17/11/2004, 6:32 PM
Not on,highly stupid,probly get us fined
Not on,highly stupid,probly get us fined
very much on. not stupid. doubt we'd get fined.
tiktok
18/11/2004, 7:40 AM
well said. I don't want any chanting or anything during the game. but during the israeli anthem, it will make a point, then we can get back to the game
While my opinions on the Palestinian issue are close to yours Eanna, if anyone arounds me starts booing and chanting over a foreign team's anthem in Landsdowne road they'll get a serious earful and a swift kick in the rear from me. :mad:
I don't think that Lansdowne is the appropriate venue for this type of protest.
Aberdonian Stu
18/11/2004, 8:20 AM
If you want to protest during an anthem don't boo it, sit during it. That's what I did for the Cyprus game (normally wouldn't take sides but the Greek-Cypriots refusal to budge in recent months really annoyed me). It's an honourable way of showing your disgust without lowering yourself. Turning your back is another option. Booing is what we'd expect from hooligans, and given that you're trying to make a serious political point I'm guesing you don't wish to appear like that.
Incidentally we most definitely would get fined for booing. UEFA/FIFA have a zero tolerance policy and assume racism/xenophobia whether it's present or not.
The anthem should not be booed.
There are many, many people in Israel who want to live in peaceful co-existence with Palestinians, and many who actively do what they can to bring this about. By booing the anthem, you insult them too.
green goblin
18/11/2004, 8:50 AM
While it's always commendable to oppose tyranny and opression, why weren't we kicking up a big aul' fuss when we played the Nigerians, who, let us be clear, are ruled by a bunch of evil, murdering b@stards? What about the Saudis, with their apalling human rights record and disregard for democratic process and unimaginable greed?
What I worry about is that Ireland is perhaps infected with very deeply ingrained anti semitism. It's a Catholic thing, in which the Jews are blamed for the death of Christ, rather than the collective sin and guilt of mankind. I have heard so many discussions on the Palestinian issue that ended up with "And don't forget they killed our Lord too".
And before any of you start accusing me of being some some Zionist pro-Bush lunatic, yes, I do have a Palestinian flag, thank you very much.
Can I also plead with everyone to go and read the excellent graphic novel "Palestine" by Joe Sacco. Can't reccomend it enough.read about it here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0224069829/qid=1100771213/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_3_2/026-1697447-1330033)
Good post. I too have wondered how much anti-Israel stuff is based on something that runs deeper than concern for the Palestinians. Pol Pot and Idi Amin got better press than the Israelis...
This is just typical bullshít, can't support the Palestinians or criticise Israel without being an anti-Semite. It's always the first line of defence.
IMO the reason why people feel so strongly about Israel is because of the decades of ignoring the international community, with the support of the US (refusal to ever back resolutions against them). Add this in with the fact they're the self styled only democracy in the mid-east, yet they are clearly abusing and oppressing the Palestinian people.
While it's always commendable to oppose tyranny and opression, why weren't we kicking up a big aul' fuss when we played the Nigerians, who, let us be clear, are ruled by a bunch of evil, murdering b@stards? What about the Saudis, with their apalling human rights record and disregard for democratic process and unimaginable greed?
What I worry about is that Ireland is perhaps infected with very deeply ingrained anti semitism. It's a Catholic thing, in which the Jews are blamed for the death of Christ, rather than the collective sin and guilt of mankind. I have heard so many discussions on the Palestinian issue that ended up with "And don't forget they killed our Lord too".
And before any of you start accusing me of being some some Zionist pro-Bush lunatic, yes, I do have a Palestinian flag, thank you very much.
Can I also plead with everyone to go and read the excellent graphic novel "Palestine" by Joe Sacco. Can't reccomend it enough.read about it here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0224069829/qid=1100771213/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_3_2/026-1697447-1330033)
Green Goblin I can assure you I for one have ZERO interest in the Palestinian - Isreali conflict - on any level - what does get me angry however is this increasing Irish trait of limiting even the most basic of civil liberties. Waving a poxy flag is a personal choice and I wont have what I can and cant do (within the law) dictated to by the political agendas of a bunch of cnuts who think they can make up "moral laws" about peoples behaviour. Waving a flag in Lansdowne is a matter of personal choice for that person not something for discussion, I wont be waving one - coz im sick of Ireland home games so I wont be there - the "sit down lads" attitude of the security, the silent night atmosphere and general "non football" nature of these crowds is symptomatic of the greater malaise - wnkers telling people what is an what isnt acceptable
green goblin
18/11/2004, 9:41 AM
This is just typical bullshít, can't support the Palestinians or criticise Israel without being an anti-Semite. It's always the first line of defence.
IMO the reason why people feel so strongly about Israel is because of the decades of ignoring the international community, with the support of the US (refusal to ever back resolutions against them). Add this in with the fact they're the self styled only democracy in the mid-east, yet they are clearly abusing and oppressing the Palestinian people.
I really don't think that criticising the Israeli government's apalling disregard for human rights and contempt for international law makes anyone anti-semitic, Macy. And I don't believe that ant-semitism is an different (better/worse) than being anti-Eskimo, or anti-zulu or any other ethnic group. The US policy on Israel has it's roots in the cold war, like a lot of things, and has not been up for discussion in the US for a long time. They're unlikely to shift, as Israel has gone from being the only friendly foothold in a continent of will they/won't they commies to the only friendly foothold in a continent of will they/won't they Islamic fundamentalists.
Getting back to the flag thing, I don't think that the lads at Pantsdowne Rd sending the world the message of "IRA/PLO one people one struggle" helps anyone right now.
This is just typical bullshít, can't support the Palestinians or criticise Israel without being an anti-Semite. It's always the first line of defence.I have to agree with this. If you criticise American Foreign policy, you are Anti-American, Israeli policy towards Palestine, you are anti-Semite and have forgotten the Holocaust.
Nigeria is a good example. There have been many protests against deporting women, in particular, back to Nigeria, given the oppresive regimes, both governmental and religious, that will probably result in the woman's death. Yet the very people who would be the first to shout anti-Semite, will jeer at these protestors and call them "the usual suspects" or "do gooders" (because its a terrible crime in the eyes of the hard men to do some good).
Many people do protest about Tibet for instance, but are labelled "cranks" by the very same people who believe that anybody who doesn't agree with their narrow world view is "Anti-American" "Anti-Semite" "pinko" or some other nonsense.
Don't you think for one minute that the Jews have been subjected to genocides, pogroms and hatred since the beginning of time, that they simply wanted to have a home in a place that even the Christian Bible says is their home, and are surrounded by countries that would gladly wipe them out (and have tried in the past, but just been very crap at it) and maybe, just maybe, they deserve a bit more understanding then they get for doing what anyone would do and defending their little patch of land?SO because they have suffered so much, it's wrong to object when they visit suffering on others?
If there was a religion that maintained that Cork/Kerry/Dublin or wherever you live, was their spiritual home, would you happily be forced to give up the home and land your family had worked and lived on for generations, go into exile/a refugee camp without a cents worth of compensation, and then accept being treated like some sort of lower life form by those who had taken your home, and be satisfied with the justification that a Book said they had the right to do this?
So you dismiss anti-Semitism as having any part to play in opinions on Jews? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Just that I've seen a heck of a lot more posts on here about Israel than any other flashpoint, I can't think of one word of criticism of the Russians in Chechnya pre-the terrorist attack on the school. Or, more amazingly, how about the genocide by Muslims in Sudan? Not one word of criticism.
Don't you think for one minute that the Jews have been subjected to genocides, pogroms and hatred since the beginning of time, that they simply wanted to have a home in a place that even the Christian Bible says is their home, and are surrounded by countries that would gladly wipe them out (and have tried in the past, but just been very crap at it) and maybe, just maybe, they deserve a bit more understanding then they get for doing what anyone would do and defending their little patch of land?
The threads on here are dictated by whats in the news. Thats the reason why it's a hotter topic. Or maybe like I said before, they accept the title of being a democracy without actually putting it into practice for all the people under their Governance.
patsh
18/11/2004, 10:06 AM
There has been more than one case in this country, and in others, involving the possible stoning of women.
The point I was making was that one post mentioned Nigeria, and how nobody protests against this country, but the fact is that people do protest, but are dismissed.
Éanna
18/11/2004, 11:45 AM
While my opinions on the Palestinian issue are close to yours Eanna, if anyone arounds me starts booing and chanting over a foreign team's anthem in Landsdowne road they'll get a serious earful and a swift kick in the rear from me. :mad:
no, I don't agree with booing an anthem. thats disrespectful and childish. i was suggesting holding up a banner, or turning our backs when the anthem is being played.
anto eile
18/11/2004, 11:59 AM
bring as many palestine flags as possible to the game. and jeer their anthem incessently
anto eile
18/11/2004, 12:10 PM
conor 74.israel doesnt deserve understanding. and dont start with nonsense the bible says they can take palestine for themselves. the bible is merely a selection of folk tales and made up nonsense.its simpy a carefully selected collection of vatican propaganda (the same goes for every other religious book-koran,torah etc) , and thats a fact proven by the way that the catholic church has only selected particular gospels for inclusion in the bible so to further their own agenda.the mary magdalene gospel isnt included in the bible because it apparently claims jésus lamped her out of it.
your "logic" is non existent. just because a book says so doesnt mena the israeli nazi* party has a right to exterminate the palestinians and rob their land
as for every country in the middle east trying to exterminate israel..ever wondered why?because israel is an agressor,which has stolen land from all its neighbouring countries,not just from the palestinians.it continually seizes every chance to expand its borders.its not a democracy,because a democratic state protects the rights of the minority,and in the zionist regimes case it doesnt do that.
*ariel sharon is a nazi in every way that hitler was,just substitute jew-hating for arab-hating.
green goblin
18/11/2004, 12:16 PM
bring as many palestine flags as possible to the game. and jeer their anthem incessently
"Quick! Withdraw from the occupied territories at once! We must win the respect of Irish football fans at all costs!" :rolleyes: Riiiiight. :confused:
The holding up of the Palestinian flag makes your point, quite adequately. Don't for a second, however, think that any shot on Israeli TV will show any of you doing it.
By jeering and booing another nations anthem you only bring all Irish people down- all of us. You, me, your parents, all of us. It's one thing to make a political point, another to show a complete lack of respect for an entire nation. Sharon's a madman leading a government of madmen on an insane course of action that defies reason and morality. No argument there. It doesn't mean it's therefore OK to insult every Israeli on the planet.
green goblin
18/11/2004, 12:32 PM
[QUOTE=anto eile]...as for every country in the middle east trying to exterminate israel..ever wondered why?because israel is an agressor,which has stolen land from all its neighbouring countries,not just from the palestinians.it continually seizes every chance to expand its borders.its not a democracy,because a democratic state protects the rights of the minority,and in the zionist regimes case it doesnt do that.
QUOTE]
That's right, because no Arab nation can ever be accused of being an aggressor, stealing land from its neighbouring countries, siezing chances extend its borders, of being undemocratic, existing to protect the rights of the minority in power, can they? :rolleyes: Especially not the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Iranians, Iraqi's...
The reasons you state are perfectly valid for accusing the state of Israel of behaving in a manner that should garner deep condemnation from the international community, but do not even come close to explaining the deep ingrained racism, fear and hatred going back thousands of years on both sides. It's far more complicated than that, sadly.
Oh yes, and your stuff about the bible is just bobbins. Also, the church wasn't Catholic when the council decided on which books were canon and which were heretical, it was just the church. That didn't come until 700 years later. Stop watching the Discovery channel. It'll rot your brain. ;)
sadloserkid
18/11/2004, 12:54 PM
Would 100% support a protest. Would never boo another country's anthem however. Sitting during it would be the way to go I think. Bring Palestinian flags if you have them. People can say all they like that an israeli football match isn't the place for this but it's already happened.
Israel and Denmark played in a friendly match a while back in Denmark and the stadium was only something like half full because the rest bought tickets and then stood outside to protest. As ours is a competitive match that's not gonna happen but if any country in the world deserves to be well and truly spat upon (in the metaphorical sense) it's Israel.
green goblin
18/11/2004, 1:23 PM
Would never boo another country's anthem however...if any country in the world deserves to be well and truly spat upon (in the metaphorical sense) it's Israel.
How do you spit at someone metaphorically :confused: :rolleyes:
Stab in the dark, but have you ever heard misunderstanding by Henry Rollins? Get it here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000037MS/102-0576166-4988163?v=glance) -absolutely the last word on spitting.
But your reference to Israeli nazis was particularly insensitive and breathtakingly ignorant of their history and plight.
Well he's Sharon has over seen the invading of other countries, the ghettoising of a particular group of people based on their religion, carriers out random acts of violence on them for the greater good of the majority of his country. It may be extreme view, but is it really that far off the mark?
sadloserkid
18/11/2004, 1:29 PM
How do you spit at someone metaphorically :confused: :rolleyes:
Stab in the dark, but have you ever heard misunderstanding by Henry Rollins? Get it here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000037MS/102-0576166-4988163?v=glance) -absolutely the last word on spitting.
Never gotten the Rollins thingy but I am straightedge if that counts for anything (though I'm considering abandoning it!) ;)
green goblin
18/11/2004, 2:12 PM
Well he's Sharon has over seen the invading of other countries, the ghettoising of a particular group of people based on their religion, carriers out random acts of violence on them for the greater good of the majority of his country. It may be extreme view, but is it really that far off the mark?
I know what you mean Macy, I really do, but it's still not on to compare him to a Nazi. Sharon's lot are evil, greedy landgrabbers with little or no thought to what happens to the people they displace, content to be bulllies knowing that no one will seriously ever take them on because of the Americans. They deserve your contempt for their cruelty, and your encouragement to seek a lasting peaceful solution that affords dignity and respect to all.
Nazi's were far, far worse. They wanted the utter extermination of a people, so there would be no trace of them even left in history books. They wanted Semitism removed as even an abstract concept, the abolition of free will and the usherign in of a new Dark Age.
We use the word 'fascist' too readily. It's a vile word. Unclean.
I know what you mean Macy, I really do, but it's still not on to compare him to a Nazi. Sharon's lot are evil, greedy landgrabbers with little or no thought to what happens to the people they displace, content to be bulllies knowing that no one will seriously ever take them on because of the Americans. They deserve your contempt for their cruelty, and your encouragement to seek a lasting peaceful solution that affords dignity and respect to all.
Nazi's were far, far worse. They wanted the utter extermination of a people, so there would be no trace of them even left in history books. They wanted Semitism removed as even an abstract concept, the abolition of free will and the usherign in of a new Dark Age.
We use the word 'fascist' too readily. It's a vile word. Unclean.
Don't necessarily disagree, and certainly the word facist is used too frequently. However, it's not too implausable for anto to compare sharon to a facist, and certainly more applicable than some recent accusations in this country against politicians...
I take your points and would say call them whatever. Evil, butchers, bigots, anything else, but the word Nazi has a particularly offensive and obvious connotation when it comes to the Jews and is simply an ignorant comparison.
I'm sure that aspect of the comparison wasn't lost on anyone who read it. However, I don't think certain Jews should be exempted from that kind of label just because of their past. If their acting like facists, call them facists (the Nazi's being the most famous example).
I also am not sure about your assertion that they 'ghettoise' a people because of their religion. I think land has a vital aspect in the whole thing, rather than some purely religious war.
Hmmm not convinced. If it wasn't religious, why are the "settling" the occupied land?
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