Bring back Winter Football

[LFC Blue]

I think it's high time we returned League of Ireland football to its rightful place in the calendar and abandoned this summer football lark.i can't see any major improvements in crowds,entertainment,European performance etc since we changed to summer football.Ok the pitches are better but recent winters have been milder and dryer making this less of a factor.does anyone agree...

[PartySaint]

Bray is cold enough in July never mind December.

[White Horse]

I doubt it would make any difference to crowds. Clubs would have to consider installing 3G pitches or investing a lot more money in pitch maintenance and training pitches. Winter football would be a disaster for any clubs participating in Europe.

[El-Pietro]

no thank you.

[seand]

Whatever about anything else European performances have improved greatly

[legendz]

I'm more likely to go to games outside the the GAA championships window. I'll be in Thomond Park on Friday night.

It's a tough one regards winter or summer. It's the right decision to have league action when the clubs are in European action. Haven't seen a need for change.

[White Horse]

I'm more likely to go to games outside the the GAA championships window.

I wonder whether that affects many teams? The GAA competitions are pretty inconsequential in Louth.

[nigel-harps1954]

In whether that affects many teams? The GAA competitions are pretty inconsequential in Louth.

Massively affects Harps over the summer.

I'd be in favour of a return to winter football. Would take it in a heartbeat.

[Straightstory]

European performances have improved hugely. That's a definite benefit - and why I wouldn't want to go back. If that wasn't the case, I'd prefer winter where we could distance ourselves from the GAA.

[dundalkfc10]

In whether that affects many teams? The GAA competitions are pretty inconsequential in Louth.

Disagree with this. When Louth Champ games are on same time as Oriel, or a full round of League games are on which the 6 Dundalk sides are invovled, The attendance in Oriel is hit by at least 200!

1 group of lads who go to the Shed, play GAA for one of the town sides, and their is about 15/20 of them who dont be in Oriel when they have club games/training etc... Id imagine all other clubs are the same!

The clubs in surrounding areas, Dromiskin, Knockbridge,. Cooley, Lordship etc... would all have a good few that would goto Oriel when the GAA is not on!

Id never go back to Winter Football though!

[Bunny Kelly]

Bray is cold enough in July never mind December.


Best possible answer

[Macy]

I'd change back today if we could. It was ill conceived from the start. Have European performances really improved that much (worth discommoding the rest of the league, for a few games for a few clubs)? I don't think so. Same as it ever was, the better teams in terms of budget and personnel are doing better.

Suddenly after a few seasons, a return to winter football requires artificial pitches or a bankrupting amount of maintenance? Give me a feckin break.

For me, it's much much harder to get away to a match in the summer than it is in the winter. Too much else happening with the family, children, holidays, weekend trips etc. I'm not alone, last time I checked attendance figures (which dip in the summer).

As ever we need to get away from anecdotes though - the first step should be a proper assessment of what summer football has brought us in terms of money (including crowds), coverage, and if it has reduced costs. Then a proper investigation of what might change with going back to winter. We changed to summer on whim, with no identified tangibles to judge its success or otherwise. We shouldn't repeat that f**k up.

[D24Saint]

Have European performances really improved that much

The saints have progressed several rounds for a couple of seasons and Rovers took part in the group stages of a major competition, id call that progression.Things have slipped lately but still much better than during winter football.I for one would never go back to winter football, the pitches would be awful and that would affect the quality of the football.

[PartySaint]

Attendances would be the exact same, the same people would go to games, numbers would dip in December/January like they do in July/August but the reason would be Christmas/bad weather instead of Holiday/Gaa.

I'm happy with the summer football but a shorter off season would be nice.

[White Horse]

a shorter off season would be nice.

Amen to that.

[GCdfc]

People would find other reasons not to attend....it was raining, too cold, too dark to be going out on a night like that etc.

[Mr A]

Winter football is a disaster for FHFC so I'd move back in a heartbeat. Plus I always liked the frosty nights or even some of the rough ones as the players battled it out under the lights. Can't see it happening though, I don't think there's many clubs that want to revert.

On there being a slump in crowds in mid Winter- I seem to recall some very good crowds for games on December 26th. Certainly in the Irish league that date gets the biggest crowds of the season.

[legendz]

People would find other reasons not to attend....it was raining, too cold, too dark to be going out on a night like that etc.

It is true in fairness. If people really want to go, they will go. Friday evenings in fairness isn't clashing with everything and the rest of the weekend is free.

[ger121]

You'd easily know we're approaching the start of the silly season, when this old chestnut comes up again.

[outspoken]

We had enough games postponed this season so I can't see how winter football could even be possible if the pitches can't take the rain we get during the so called summer season. Would love a return to winner otherwise.

[disgruntled]

Thanks but no thanks.

There is no logical reason to return to winter football.

Would the attendances improve ? No
Would the standard of football improve ? No
Would it be an advantage to our teams playing in Europe ? No
Would the standard of the pitches improve ? No
Would the standard of refereeing improve ? :rolleyes: Skip that one.

Why then would we want to go back to winter football ?
We changed for a reason & nothing that has happened since suggests that we should go back.

[Mr A]

Well we had it for decades and it happens in junior and intermediate leagues around the country as well as in every one of our near neighbours. So it's certainly possible.

[Macy]

You'd easily know we're approaching the start of the silly season, when this old chestnut comes up again.
Silly season, or because it's still a genuine concern for some clubs? It keeps on getting dismissed, but it really hasn't worked for clubs away from the major urban centres. Summer football simply hasn't provided any benefits for a lot of clubs

Even if it is some benefit in Europe, which I still think is debatable, is that really a good enough justification for the entire league to built around 4 clubs individual ambition? What's the benefits for the entire league of European "success"?

It's possible that the "pitches are better in the summer" is a short term thing, given the lack of opportunity to carry out works in the winter vs the traditional summer period to relay pitches, work on drainage etc. It's also an added road block in terms of getting intermediate clubs to step up to senior.

[seand]

Macy makes good pro-winter points, but....
Improvements in Euro results aren't really debatable, just look at results up to 2002 v results since 2002
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/ier-ec.html
Crudely you're looking at an average of something like an aggregate 0.5 rounds progressed per season pre-summer football, 2.5 rounds progressed per season post-summer football. Obviously that's not all down to summer football, but results in Europe are vastly improved. And yeh, it's only an issue for a few clubs a season, but it has to be a key metric. (The key metric?)

and


it really hasn't worked for clubs away from the major urban centres.
This is an issue certainly, but the vast majority of clubs are in major urban centres. Any thoughts on why it works less well for 'rural' (for want of a better word) clubs?

[Mr A]

Why should it be a key metric though? It only benefits a few clubs. I don't think it has any real impact on the general perception of the league.

The key metric for me would be that we used to have 22 clubs, now we have 19, and a good few of those are hanging on by their fingernails.

[disgruntled]

Well we had it for decades and it happens in junior and intermediate leagues around the country as well as in every one of our near neighbours. So it's certainly possible.



Silly season, or because it's still a genuine concern for some clubs? It keeps on getting dismissed, but it really hasn't worked for clubs away from the major urban centres. Summer football simply hasn't provided any benefits for a lot of clubs

Even if it is some benefit in Europe, which I still think is debatable, is that really a good enough justification for the entire league to built around 4 clubs individual ambition? What's the benefits for the entire league of European "success"?

It's possible that the "pitches are better in the summer" is a short term thing, given the lack of opportunity to carry out works in the winter vs the traditional summer period to relay pitches, work on drainage etc. It's also an added road block in terms of getting intermediate clubs to step up to senior.

Of course its possible to have Winter football but it didn't work & that's the reason why it changed to Summer.
I would never dismiss anything that has a chance of working but I fail to see a valid reason for going back to something which did not work.

Is Summer the answer to all questions ? No but its a hell of a lot better than where we came from.
Has it proved to be the answer to all clubs ? No it hasn't but a change in season won't do that either.
It has brought obvious improvements in better pitches, better standard of play & better conditions for those who wish to attend the matches. It has given teams who qualify for Europe a better chance because of the increased level of fitness.

There is the fundamental problem of trying to get people to support League of Ireland football.
And therein lies the problem. Moving back to winter football will not do this either so what is the answer ?

People bring up other ideas like moving back to a single league. That didn't work & hense the reason why we moved from it.

The reason none of these ideas has worked is because of the lack of cooperation between all the leagues in this country. There is no continuation in this country.
In other countries it is possible to go from a village pub team to the top leagues by a process of promotions. It doesn't mean you're going to make it but its possible.
You can't do that here because the various leagues are at odds with each other & refuse to cooperate with each other in any kind of pyramid league scheme.
People in positions of power in Soccer leagues in this country fail to see that by improving the overall product that things also improve for their own particular league.
All they see if thier own little corner, their own little bit of power & anything outside of that is a threat.

There needs to be a fundamental change of thinking on how Soccer is run in this country before we make any sort of worthwhile progress & I know I will be long gone before that ever happens.

To continue the discussion I ask What would be the benefits of going back to Winter football ?

[Macy]

The reason none of these ideas has worked is because of the lack of cooperation between all the leagues in this country. There is no continuation in this country.
In other countries it is possible to go from a village pub team to the top leagues by a process of promotions. It doesn't mean you're going to make it but its possible.
You can't do that here because the various leagues are at odds with each other & refuse to cooperate with each other in any kind of pyramid league scheme.
People in positions of power in Soccer leagues in this country fail to see that by improving the overall product that things also improve for their own particular league.
All they see if thier own little corner, their own little bit of power & anything outside of that is a threat.

There needs to be a fundamental change of thinking on how Soccer is run in this country before we make any sort of worthwhile progress & I know I will be long gone before that ever happens.

To continue the discussion I ask What would be the benefits of going back to Winter football ?
How can we have a workable pyramid, when we have the top leagues working to a different calendar!


Obviously that's not all down to summer football, but results in Europe are vastly improved. And yeh, it's only an issue for a few clubs a season, but it has to be a key metric. (The key metric?)

Not sure why its the key metric. Is europe the be all and end all of the league? What benefits does it bring to the league as a whole rather than just the clubs that progress an extra round?


This is an issue certainly, but the vast majority of clubs are in major urban centres. Any thoughts on why it works less well for 'rural' (for want of a better word) clubs?
It needs proper analysis. My anecdotal evidence is that there's more other demands on time, and perhaps a more restricted fan base where that impacts more.

[DannyInvincible]

The key metric for me would be that we used to have 22 clubs, now we have 19, and a good few of those are hanging on by their fingernails.

Clubs hung on by fingernails/went bust whilst operating a winter schedule too. Would changing from summer football ensure or increase the likelihood of the sustainability of a greater number of clubs and, if so, why?

[seand]

Europe is a key metric because:
it is one of the very few areas where the league can be compared consistently with it's peers
it is the pinnacle of Irish club football
it is an aspiration and goal for most clubs in the league
relative success *should* help the league financially

I don't get this idea that Europe only affects 4 clubs... surely at least 7 or 8 clubs were aiming to make Europe one way or another this season. Over the past 5 season 8 or 10 clubs- half the league- have played in Europe.

[outspoken]

Disgruntled has it spot on for me, the winter/summer debate is not the major issue with the league it's the fact there is absolutely no pyramid in place for Irish football and it never looks like there ever will be. The FAI are suppose to be the governing body of football in this country yet haven't control over 99% of the leagues.

[disgruntled]

How can we have a workable pyramid, when we have the top leagues working to a different calendar!



When all the leagues were running to the same schedule they still wouldn't cooperate.
What has changed ? Nothing.
All I see are people grasping at straws.
They keep going back to the old failed policies without tackling the fundamental problems.
We can only tackle the problems when people sit down together, forget their own petty squabbles & jealousies & think why they are there in the first place for the overall good of football.

If you improve the game structure as a whole then it stands to reason that you improve the situation for every member of that structure.

A perfect example of Non Cooperation was when recently Cork City applied for membership of the Munster Senior League where they could give up & coming young players who were too old for the Under 19's some valuable experience & game time.
They fulfilled all the criteria but their application was refused.
The reason given was "It would not be in the best interest of the League"

What did the MFA think was going to happen ?
Were City going to pack their team every week in order to win the league ?

These are the same petty excuses people came up with when Rovers put a team in the 1st Div.
They're going to pack the team & destroy it for everyone else.
What happened ? Rovers finished 2nd from bottom of the table.
So much for destroying it for everyone else.


Again I ask What would be the benefits of going back to Winter football ?

[Longfordian]

I enjoyed going to games in the winter and our crowds certainly seemed higher in the last season or two of winter football than the following few seasons but I'm not sure how much of that was down to the novelty of Premier Division football. It'll be interesting to compare next season's crowds if we manage to have any kind of a decent start.

[Macy]

Again I ask What would be the benefits of going back to Winter football ?
It's the traditional season.
Crowds have (at the very least) not been positively impacted by a summer season.
It at least offers the chance of integration with other domestic leagues, and less complications to a cross border competition (either cup or an AIL).

After that, it's anecdotal. And although I've long been proponant of a move back, I have also been pretty consistent in saying it needs proper research as the benefits, and costs, of a move as well as proper research into the effect, if any, that Summer football has had. I don't believe this was done at the time of the move from Winter (or at least no tangibles were identified to allow proper analysis of it's success or otherwise), and I don't think the same mistakes should be made if there was a proposed move back.

If you want the anecdotal evidence, then I've said it several times. Crowds are affected during the summer months, imo, because of the competing demands on leisure time, and extended working times for those in rural locations. I don't believe our actual competitors for leisure time were properly identified at the time of the move. This is based on people who do go to games, not random surveys of people down the pub who wouldn't go anyway. It's the people that have an interest that we should be looking after first and getting to as many games as possible, then worry about attracting new supporters.

I'm still not buying Europe as the be all and end all. Apart from the clubs that make it, some kind of trickle down effect is the best league wide effect. So we base the entire season around 4 or 6 games for 4 clubs?

[seand]

Agree we sleepwalked into the switch to summer, and then into the faaaarce of the IAG. And perhaps therein lies the big issue... a complete lack of planning, coordination, joined-up thinking etc at every level of the game.

[NeverFeltBetter]

It's the traditional season.



I think this is fairly immaterial.



Crowds have (at the very least) not been positively impacted by a summer season.



I don't believe they would be any better switching back, but you are welcome to prove otherwise.



It at least offers the chance of integration with other domestic leagues



The problems here go far, far beyond the difference between winter and summer schedules. Issues of entry, upward swings in financing and finding any sort of sustaining audience would be more paramount for the minuscule amount of clubs even slightly capable of the step-up.


and less complications to a cross border competition (either cup or an AIL).



The Setanta Cup looks increasingly like it is on its last legs after years of trying (disparity in quality, costs, lack of interest from the north), and an AIL isn't even on the distant horizon (for obvious reasons). Winter football would change neither of those things.

This all strikes me as a little knee jerk and a quest for a magic bullet. Changing back to winter offers little benefit to justify the effort, in my view.

And if we're going anecdotal, I like summer football. I like the better weather, I like having months without direct competition with the EPL, and I like the impact its had on Euro involvement.

[Macy]

This all strikes me as a little knee jerk and a quest for a magic bullet. Changing back to winter offers little benefit to justify the effort, in my view.
The only magic bullet that has ever been suggested is the one we acted on - the move to the Summer season! It was done without proper research and no measurable impacts were given.


And if we're going anecdotal, I like summer football. I like the better weather, I like having months without direct competition with the EPL, and I like the impact its had on Euro involvement.
I am saying we shouldn't be doing it anecdotal. Get someone to do proper research, and a proper assessment of the options.

[Mr A]

I'm with Macy in preferring winter football but wanting proper analysis and research before changing again. Summer football was brought in without that and that was wrong- but that doesn't change the fact we should properly think it through before reverting again. I don't for a second think it'd be a silver budget and agree with the points above about Irish football needing to be vastly better integrated- although how you do that when the senior game is on a different schedule to most other leagues (even the sodding U19 season) is an interesting point. And the LOI clubs are famously self interested, our part of the game is not without guilt on this score.


Clubs hung on by fingernails/went bust whilst operating a winter schedule too. Would changing from summer football ensure or increase the likelihood of the sustainability of a greater number of clubs and, if so, why?

True, but we never faced the situation of having to have a reserve team to make up the numbers. I'm not suggesting this is strictly related to the season change by the way, I was suggesting it was a more important metric than Euro progress, especially as the latter will always be insignificant compared to that of the leagues we're judged against such as Scotland (mostly Celtic) and England.

I am willing to admit that my own view on this is coloured by my own club's experience. And I know that for the currently stronger clubs the prospect of getting through an extra round in Europe can make a huge difference so of course fans of those clubs like the way things are. But the league is facing an issue it has not done before- that we're running out of clubs. Currently it only impacts the D1 clubs but ultimately it'll affect the league overall. I don't recall a similar situation at any point since the first division was introduced.

What I want (and I've said this many times) is for the FAI to take a bit of responsibility, come up with a strategy and a vision for the senior game and indeed football structures in general and start working towards it. A move back to winter football may or may not be a part of that and it sure as hell won't be easy but currently it seems to me that the league is largely adrift. And that just isn't good enough from the governing body- and the senior game and also the media should be demanding better.

[gufcfan]

Agree we sleepwalked into the switch to summer, and then into the faaaarce of the IAG. And perhaps therein lies the big issue... a complete lack of planning, coordination, joined-up thinking etc at every level of the game.

I disagree about moving back to winter football, but I think we shouldn't be fooled into thinking the way football is organised in this country isn't deliberate.

[seand]

What I want (and I've said this many times) is for the FAI to take a bit of responsibility, come up with a strategy and a vision for the senior game and indeed football structures in general and start working towards it.

Now you're just being ridiculous........

[jinxy lilywhite]

Just to stick my oar in. I think there should be an open debate on the switch back to winter football. But the debate should include all stakeholders ie clubs, supporters, TV, even the FAI if they bother to care.

The switch to summer football has brought mixed results but is it really comparable to when we played winter football?

But I strongly agree with other that the off season is far too long. I know clubs want an average of a home game every 10 days but I believe that this is very counter productive and infact forces folk to pick and choose games as a result

Personally I would prefer winter footy, especially for games under floodlights.

There is also something unnatural IMO of having our cup final in November.

[osarusan]

We changed to summer football for a variety for a variety of reasons that basically failed to materialise. Crowds didn't really improve, the standard of football didn't really improve, and it's very difficult to say that European performances have benefited. I've always thought that was more to do with budgets than anything else.

If we changed back again, I'd expect none of those things to change either. The issue of crowds, standard of football and European performances aren't going to be linked significantly to either summer or winter football.

We just need more money.

[Jofspring]

Definitely haven't had milder winters. The last two seasons playing junior soccer have been a write off from mid November till mid February. Most teams actually went longer during those months without a game than the actual off season.

Shorter LOL off season needs to come in though. In junior the season ends in may or sometimes even the start of June and is back in August. 4 months in the league of Ireland is too long and I don't think it's done anywhere else.

[nigel-harps1954]

Looking at it another way, wouldn't it be nicer to end the season coming into the summer?

Pitches rest for the summer. Greater growth for the winter leading to them being better prepared for winter football.

Coming into winter isn't an ideal way to end the season, cup final, climax to season, all played on cold, damp wet days.

Cup final in May, league climax in May, play-offs in May.

I miss winter football. It was more fun then. Something about the feeling of coming away from a match trying to thaw out your toes from the frosty weather just stuck with me since childhood. Great memories.

[disgruntled]

I am of the opinion that summer soccer has benefits which winter soccer don't bring.I have already stated those earlier.
BUT Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall, it won't matter when the game is played unless we tackle the fundamental problems of the game.
We need an integrated pyramid system in this country.
Otherwise the various leagues will remain separate with no cooperation or connection between them other than the blazers at the FAI agm.
If those in charge of our game don't grasp this fact those of us still around in twenty years will still be discussing this all over again.

[nigel-harps1954]

I am of the opinion that summer soccer has benefits which winter soccer don't bring.I have already stated those earlier.
BUT Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall, it won't matter when the game is played unless we tackle the fundamental problems of the game.
We need an integrated pyramid system in this country.
Otherwise the various leagues will remain separate with no cooperation or connection between them other than the blazers at the FAI agm.
If those in charge of our game don't grasp this fact those of us still around in twenty years will still be discussing this all over again.

There's as much hope of us playing on the moon to be honest.

[Macy]

Definitely haven't had milder winters. The last two seasons playing junior soccer have been a write off from mid November till mid February. Most teams actually went longer during those months without a game than the actual off season.
I live up the mountains - we barely had frost last winter!


I am of the opinion that summer soccer has benefits which winter soccer don't bring.I have already stated those earlier.
BUT Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall, it won't matter when the game is played unless we tackle the fundamental problems of the game.
We need an integrated pyramid system in this country.
Otherwise the various leagues will remain separate with no cooperation or connection between them other than the blazers at the FAI agm.
If those in charge of our game don't grasp this fact those of us still around in twenty years will still be discussing this all over again.
You keep saying this, so I'll keep pointing out, that senior football playing to a different calendar, doesn't exactly help! How would a pyramid work? Top Intermediate Team gains promotion to Senior football in May. They then can't play football again until the following March! Even if an ambitious team enters a team in the leagues own U19 league, and decides to apply to join the first - they'll either have to leave the U19 league midseason, or have a significant period without football.

It's not the primary issue for a lack of integration, but do we only want integration on our terms? It really puts a practical roadblock in the way that everyone can hide behind, if nothing else.

[gufcfan]

We need an integrated pyramid system in this country.

Agreed, but we'll never but the SFAI and the other bodies under the FAI banner have no interest in that. I don't know you would ever force them into doing anything.

[Jofspring]

It wasn't because of frost games kept getting called off because last year wasn't that cold. It was the torrential rain that kept falling flooding pitches. If a game managed to get played one week it was most definitely called off the following week. We have a very good pitch also.

[oriel]

I wouldnt be in favour of switching back. People would still find excuses not to go, too cold, xmas holidays, then we'd have the cancellation threat of games with possible frozen and waterlogged pitches. Also someone above mentioned the mild winters we had, that wont last forever.

It is nice watching matches under lights when its dark, but I also like leaving a match in April - Aug when its bright.

Would much prefer a set up change to the league than season, and go with one single division, 16 teams maybe, home and away twice, 30 games, keep it simple and open up senior football to more parts of the country. We could still have a relegation system in place to non leagues.

[Macy]

We could still have a relegation system in place to non leagues.
How would it work, without League of Ireland switching back to a winter season, or forcing everyone else to move to a summer season? A club would be relegated from the league in October, and wouldn't be able to play again until August/ September the following year. The promoted team would be promoted in May, and wouldn't be able to play again until the following March or April.