Fenlon calls for league summit

[outspoken]

After the fiasco at Dalymount, Tuesday night in tolka and the strong rumours of Friday nights game also being called off I thought now was a great time to throw this interview with Fenlon online where he has called for a league of Ireland summit to discuss and resolve the difficulties that in his eyes are holding back the league and turning away new supporters - http://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/league-of-ireland/fenlon-calls-for-league-summit-after-nightmare-fortnight-30543141.html

Personally I think a LOI committee should be set up with people like Fenlon, Brian Kerr hell even Roddy and Pat Dolan to examine issues within the league and come up with ideas to drive us on as a product.

[Mr A]

That committee would kill the league in roughly five years.

[outspoken]

That committee would kill the league in roughly five years.

Fenlon and Kerr have experienced management at a higher level, Fenlon always speaks about the club as a whole at Hibs and how he wants to do the same with shaping Rovers future so if every club could adopt that approach it would be an instant improvement. The other two were just names I threw in given their ability to talk things up.

[Mr A]

Kerr would be worth listening to I think, I'd have said 5 months otherwise. But Fenlon and especially the other two guys have always struck me as guys who'll just demand loads more expenditure with little to back it up. Maybe I'm being a bit unfair to Fenlon there.

[Longfordian]

What we need to do is to hire expensive consultants to study how Irish football can be improved. They can prepare a report and present their recommendations to the FAI for them to implement. Don't see why that wouldn't work. Give it some kind of biblical title.

[Mr A]

"The Exodus Report"

[Stuttgart88]

The idea of a summit in principle is a great idea. The FAI should be behind this though. It's their league and a lot of the related issues are in their remit too. The league can't prosper without the rest of the pyramid being joined up, all vested interests aligned etc. A national game summit is required, not just a League summit.

[outspoken]

The idea of a summit in principle is a great idea. The FAI should be behind this though. It's their league and a lot of the related issues are in their remit too. The league can't prosper without the rest of the pyramid being joined up, all vested interests aligned etc. A national game summit is required, not just a League summit.

Well said.

[gufcfan]

I like how people think that the administrators of the league give a damn.

This is not what giving a damn looks like.

It's like trying to row upstream, with them lot rowing in the other direction.

[Macy]

FAI are part of the problem - I don't see them as part of the solution, under the current regime at least.

[Mr A]

I met a few people in league admin from the FAI and to say they don't care simply isn't accurate. There may be indifference at the top but has certainly been good people in league admin. All too easy to just write them all off.

[Macy]

Those league admin must have signed off on tomorrow's farcical 5.45 kick off. Should never have got to the point of shels even being allowed propose it at under 24 hours notice, never mind us or the FAI giving it the OK. Doubt anyone "important" was involved.

[GypsyBlackCat]

What we need to do is to hire expensive consultants to study how Irish football can be improved. They can prepare a report and present their recommendations to the FAI for them to implement. Don't see why that wouldn't work. Give it some kind of biblical title.

Revelations?

[Macy]

Revelations?
(Lack of) Numbers.

[dfx-]

You wouldn't really need the FAI to be involved if clubs spent more on basic facilities - just even groundsmen or toilets or ticketing facilities - than a midfielder or getting a full back.

[Mr A]

On the Shelbourne-Longford fixture change- the clubs agreed it so I don't see why the FAI would be expected to veto it. Am genuinely amazed Longford agreed to it although I guess the alternative was probably a postponement.

[disgruntled]

I like Fenlons idea but its not going to happen because the clubs won't talk to each other & can't get past their own prejudices.

I'd have no problem with the likes of Fenlon, Kerr & Richardson on such a committee but I wouldn't let Dolan anywhere near it.

[seand]

Just to clarify, is this Pat Fenlon character who wants to sort out the league any relation of the Pat Fenlon who left Shels and Bohs destitute?

[disgruntled]

Just to clarify, is this Pat Fenlon character who wants to sort out the league any relation of the Pat Fenlon who left Shels and Bohs destitute?

Fenlon might be disliked by a lot of people but he's not the reason why Bohs & Shels don't have a pot to **** in.
These clubs did have boards of directors & financial controllers if you want to call the likes of Ollie Byrne that.
I have other names in mind :mad:

[Mr A]

Just to clarify, is this Pat Fenlon character who wants to sort out the league any relation of the Pat Fenlon who left Shels and Bohs destitute?

By that logic Stephen Kenny was responsible for Derry City going under.

At least both Bohs and Shels survived :)

[Louth4sam]

I remember reading an interview with Gerry Matthews when he was our owner and he said that there was a meeting of clubs and nobody would agree with anything apart from the shorter season.

Edit - Found a different quote on it from Gerry

GM: At the end of 2008 there was a meeting in Sligo among the clubs. My thinking was that it would be a meeting to discuss the problems that clubs were having but the meeting was dominated by clubs giving out about the FAI and this, that and whatever. I suggested that we should iron out our own problems first and work in unity with each other but nothing ever came of it. Most clubs don't think the same way I think. They all focus on their first team and put all their expenditure into that. At that time they didn't want to have an agreement on what way the wage structure should be in the off season. That is something every club would benefit from. A player can come to us in the off season and say that another club is offering him a 52 week contract. If every club agreed to offer an agreed maximum 40 week contract at least we would know that every club was singing of the same hymn sheet. What is wrong is that all the clubs are so competitive that they will always offer more than the other to try and reap the benefits of winning a league or qualifying for Europe. Unfortunately what we have seen from the bigger clubs in recent years is that it doesn't work. They don't reap rewards, they actually penalise themselves. Clubs want a quick fix. They don’t want to work together for the long term. They want to win the league and they feel if they tie in with the rest of the clubs in the league it will hinder their chances. That's my feeling on it. I would love if there was a standard format and certain procedures that every club stuck to but others don't want that. If that had happened then we might not have seen what happened at Cork, Derry and so on. There are only 22 clubs in the league and we seem to find it hard hard to work and agree on anything. A lot of it is fan driven. Clubs come under a lot of pressure, Dundalk are no different, to sign players before you lose them and to pay big money to attract the best players. I have no problems with that if you have the finances to do it. The reality is that a lot of the clubs don't. They might make signings and get a clap on the back for it but secretly they know that they may not be able to finance it. It's a short term fix and that's no good for any club or for the league in general.

[Stuttgart88]

Some of the responses here are a good indicator of why Irish football does actually need a summit.

[Dodge]

Some of the responses here are a good indicator of why Irish football does actually need a summit.
so they can talk ****e just like we do?

[disgruntled]

so they can talk ****e just like we do?

The first step is to talk.
Its a beginning not an end.

[Dodge]

The first step is to talk.
Its a beginning not an end.

There's no shortage of talkers in LOI circles

[Real ale Madrid]

There's an obvious joke about Fenlon and a summit there somewhere.

[disgruntled]

There's no shortage of talkers in LOI circles

The problem is getting them talking to each other & for the greater good of the League of Ireland.

[outspoken]

Brian Kerr has clearly been reading this forum 😂 calling for a task force to be set up to improve and promote the league on soccer rep last night

[jinxy lilywhite]

Is it legal for clubs to discuss with each other their own pay structures. The PFAI who are a major stakeholder in all this would/could object to it as it's in the players best interest to get the best deal for themselves.

I think clubs could benefit from shared knowledge. For instance every club should want to know what the cork promotions officer is doing. To get 5k in for the first couple of home games was a massive achievement. Knowledge shared in that instance would not damage cork and would vastly improve the promotion officers of other clubs.

[desaintsno.12]

I think clubs could benefit from shared knowledge. For instance every club should want to know what the cork promotions officer is doing. To get 5k in for the first couple of home games was a massive achievement. Knowledge shared in that instance would not damage cork and would vastly improve the promotion officers of other clubs.

hhhhmmm not sure Cork would agree.
Not saying it would happen like this but ..... Cork crowds are up.... they have a few key marketing tricks that have reaped rewards, resulting in Corks matchday revenue being substantially higher than say Pats/Dundalk... resulting in Cork having more cash to spend on the budget... meaning they can potentially get a few players Pats/Dundalk are after.... and then Pats come knocking saying....we want to know how you made more money than us, so we can erode your financial advantage over us .... I can take a guess at what Corks reaction would be

[jinxy lilywhite]

Maybe not but then that raises the question to Pats on how do they stay consistently at the top of Irish football with virtually the same 1200 to 1800 supporters.

Some areas I understand that you can not share but there are other areas that can be shared if clubs stopped looking at everything in the micro and looked at the macro as the league as a whole.

For the league to improve them all clubs must progress together. It's a process that won't be done overnight and 10 years is probably an optimistic timeline.

[Pablo Escobar]

We have a big core fanbase and a huge bandwagon, in league of Ireland terms. Sure it's down to aggressive marketing, but not all many clubs would achieve similar results.

[Charlie Darwin]

Is it legal for clubs to discuss with each other their own pay structures. The PFAI who are a major stakeholder in all this would/could object to it as it's in the players best interest to get the best deal for themselves.
The PFAI aren't a union so I don't think they'd have any real grounds to object. SIPTU is the players' union and they could object on the grounds any kind of sharing of wage levels would negatively affect the players' ability to negotiate a wage, and I'd be fairly sure it would be upheld. As far as I know, most clubs now publish their audited accounts so the gross wage spend can be found for anyone who wants it, but as we've seen with Derry and others in the past that can be misrepresented even there.

[desaintsno.12]

Maybe not but then that raises the question to Pats on how do they stay consistently at the top of Irish football with virtually the same 1200 to 1800 supporters.


I think everyone knows the answer to this. We have never claimed it was down to our crowds or merchandise sales.

just to be clear, i agree that the league as a whole needs to draw up a new blue print , maybe a five year plan, and it probably would work better if everyone pooled their ideas together and discussed what worked and what didnt...... i just dont think it'll happen

[Sheridan]

A player can come to us in the off season and say that another club is offering him a 52 week contract. If every club agreed to offer an agreed maximum 40 week contract at least we would know that every club was singing of the same hymn sheet.
Businessman in wanting to drive down wages and job security shocker.

[Nesta99]

Businessman in wanting to drive down wages and job security shocker.

In Loi? You are joking right?

[legendz]

Munster's crowds for league games down. There marketing campaign isn't reaping rewards though I suppose last weekend's win over Leinster will bring in the bandwagoners of the sport.

Taking a look at Limerick FC, how can they increase their support base? In fairness they are doing work within the community.

The league doesn't get spoken of much. Everyone heard about a Dublin derby called off due to a divet! The GAA championships, the Pro 12, GAA club Championships and the action from across the water dominate sporting discussions and the media in general as well I suppose.

It's some tsunami of a time to try and swim against. The league needs weeks of exposure for the right reasons.

[Brusher]

Thought I'd stick this in ....Surely it's about time that we handed over the U 21 National team to a fully League of Ireland team !At least this way,players can be called on to train by the manager at pretty short notice.This would have the knock on effect of giving younger players ambition !!!

[legendz]

Thought I'd stick this in ....Surely it's about time that we handed over the U 21 National team to a fully League of Ireland team !At least this way,players can be called on to train by the manager at pretty short notice.This would have the knock on effect of giving younger players ambition !!!
I wouldn't agree with the U21 team being a LoI team only. If lads who've gone across the water are good enough, they should not be cut off. When Mick McCarthy was in charge there was a game or two between a League of Ireland XI and Ireland B. I think they should have one or two such games a year.

[wonder88]

People may remember an Irish Olympic qualifying squad that was made up of loi players. One game against Hungary attracted a large crowd to Milltown; Noel King would have been on the team. I thing the crowds decline after that game, won 4-0?, and not sure if the idea only lasted one qualifying campaign. What are the rules for Olympics now, u-23 but did Beckham play in the last one. Anyone know the manager of that Irish team; Liam Touhy?

[legendz]

It's only something like the top 3 from a European U21 championship that qualify for the Olympics.

[The Donie Forde]

If that's the qualifiers for the 88 Olympics you're talking about, I think Jim McLaughlin was the manager?

[Dodge]

People may remember an Irish Olympic qualifying squad that was made up of loi players. One game against Hungary attracted a large crowd to Milltown; Noel King would have been on the team. I thing the crowds decline after that game, won 4-0?, and not sure if the idea only lasted one qualifying campaign. What are the rules for Olympics now, u-23 but did Beckham play in the last one. Anyone know the manager of that Irish team; Liam Touhy?

Definitely 1988 Olympics and Jim McLaughlin was the manager.

Ireland's results
h v Hungary 1-2 (Mick Byrne) - Milltown
h v Spain 2-2 (Mick Byrne, Noel Larkin)
a v Sweden 0-1
a v France 1-1 (Noel Larkin)
h v Sweden 0-1
h v France 3-0 (Mick Bennett 2, Peter Eccles)
a v Hungary 1-4 (Dave Barry)
a v Spain 2-2 (Noel Larkin, Barry Kehoe)

Games played over 86/87 and 87/88 seasons. We finished 4th in the group and Sweden qualified

After that, UEFA changed the qualifiers to the European Under 21 championships. We haven't done well...

[legendz]

What we need to do is to hire expensive consultants to study how Irish football can be improved. They can prepare a report and present their recommendations to the FAI for them to implement. Don't see why that wouldn't work. Give it some kind of biblical title.

Is http://foot.ie/inc/pdf/genesis.pdf the bible that you speak of?!!

The 10 team Premier didn't last for long - only 3 years, '09 - '11.
The Regional League was implemented at a third tier level and only lasted 4 years '08 - '11.

When you look back on LoI 2008:
12 Premier clubs
10 First Division clubs
16 A Championship clubs

2009
10 - Premier
12 - First
18 - A league

2010
10 - Premier
12 - First
18 - A league

2011
10 - Premier
11 - First
16 - A league (Castlebar and Tullamore had pulled out upon hearing the third tier was to be scrapped.)

2012 onwards
12 - Premier
8 - First

The league has regressed a bit since the third tier was scrapped. It seemed a level which needed to be allowed to bed in. It could only have become established over time. There's no overnight success. It's something that will have to be looked at again at some stage. Isn't it well that the low leagues of the likes of Northern Ireland and Wales have Premier Divisions of 12 and then something like 30 clubs in the next two divisions below.

[disgruntled]

Huge mistake getting rid of the A championship before it had time to settle in.
Put the A league back in & regionalise it so that clubs aren't skint because of travelling expenses.
Give incentives to clubs to enter the A championship.
I'm sure Delaneys expenses would pay for it.

Anyone who was in Oriel Park last Friday night for the League decider would have seen exactly some of the problems facing clubs.
Looks like Dundalk spent all their money on players because they had an outstanding squad but no facilities.
The way the away fans were treated was unpleasant to say the least.

[Mr A]

Moved the ground development stuff into the Stadium Update thread as it seems to fit better there. http://foot.ie/threads/43132-Stadium-updates-%28all-clubs%29/page168

[legendz]

Huge mistake getting rid of the A championship before it had time to settle in.
Put the A league back in & regionalise it so that clubs aren't skint because of travelling expenses.
Give incentives to clubs to enter the A championship.
I'm sure Delaneys expenses would pay for it.

Massive mistake to scrap the third tier. Here's the list of First Divsion clubs that participated in the A Championship:
2008: Limerick
2009: Finn Harps, Sporting Fingal.
2010: Finn Harps, Shelbourne, Limerick.
2011: Finn Harps, Limerick.

In 2010 the number had increased to 3. Interest went down in 2011 with news the third tier was to be scrapped. With 3 First Division clubs participating without obligation to do so, one would imagine about 5 clubs in the Premier division. The number of first teams was about 4; Tralee, Carlow, Castlebar and Tullamore. The A Championship could have got by with 12 teams split into 2 groups playing 4 series. That would have been a 20 game season. It should have been the basis from which to build the third tier. People said an 8 team First Division over 4 series was not the way to go but they've had no choice but to go with that.

[oriel]

Definitely 1988 Olympics and Jim McLaughlin was the manager.

Ireland's results
h v Hungary 1-2 (Mick Byrne) - Milltown
h v Spain 2-2 (Mick Byrne, Noel Larkin)
a v Sweden 0-1
a v France 1-1 (Noel Larkin)
h v Sweden 0-1
h v France 3-0 (Mick Bennett 2, Peter Eccles)
a v Hungary 1-4 (Dave Barry)
a v Spain 2-2 (Noel Larkin, Barry Kehoe)

Games played over 86/87 and 87/88 seasons. We finished 4th in the group and Sweden qualified

After that, UEFA changed the qualifiers to the European Under 21 championships. We haven't done well...

This is mad, I was only taking about these games that were played in Milltown at the Dundalk match last Friday as an old school teacher who took me was there and he was sitting with Jim McL after the match. Poor old Jim didn't have much memory of the games, but I did. It was some side, 7 rovers, 3 from us, Alan O'Neill, Gino Lawless and Barry Kehoe, with Mick Bennett (Waterford) as the starting xi for most games. Dave Barry also played and a Derry central defender (sweeper) who's name escapes me.

Same of these matches were brilliant, very good crowds too I remember, definitely over 5k at some.

[legendz]

The U19 league has 3 outside of the LoI community - Letterkenny Rovers, Mervue United and Salthill Devon. The two Galway clubs of course have exited the LoI for Galway FC's arrival.

The clubs that flirted with the LoI in the A Championship - Tralee, Castlebar, Fanad, Carlow and Tullamore are no where to be seen. Have they been so scarred by the plug being pulled on the third tier that they are gone for good?

We're into the fourth season of the U19 league. Has it been a success? It's around nearly as long as the defunct A Championship at this stage. It does not seem to have encouraged A Championship clubs to get involved. How are the majority of clubs coping without a level for players out of the U19s? Any league summit should be looking at issues like these. There's a thread doing the rounds on the "Expressions of interest in joining the league" a thread on the lack of interest in joining the league might be more appropriate!

Dundalk FC Youth Development Officer Martin Connolly comments on the U19 league coming in place of the A Championship (August 2011):
Jury out
“The U19 League takes over from the A-Championship and the U20s,” Connolly continued. “The A-Championship is over around the end of August and the U19 League will kick in straight away then. The jury is very much out on this. The first year is going to tell a tale. You have the people that say it’s good to get the players younger playing in a competitive league. But the problem now is that there is not going to be a Reserve League. For your first team that need to get players back after injuries, suspensions or want to try players out, where do you go if they’re over 19? I was at the seminar in the Aviva Stadium a number of weeks ago and it was asked if there were any steps to go back to the U21 League (where you could play three overage players) or at some stage have a Reserve League. And as Fran Gavin quite emphatically said, ‘this is the only show in town’.

UEFA model
“This is being driven by the FAI,” Martin added, “by Wim Koevermans, who is the FAI High Performance Director, Fran Gavin, the Airtricity League Director, and a number of people that say this a model that has been put forward by UEFA all around Europe, and they want to give it a go. I think we need to give it a real pop, which we’re going to do this year and see where it takes us then.” Connolly is unsure about the move, which means at the end of the U19 season an overage player would only be able to play with the first team. “That’s the problem that we have,” he said. “If at the end of the U19 League, a young guy looks to have potential but he’s just not ready to go into the first-team squad, what do you do with him?

John Delaney on Meath (July 2010):
Regarding the possibility of a team from Meath competing in the League of Ireland, the chief executive had very clearly defined ideas on the matter.

"I would like to see it happen, but it would have to be supported from within the county by all the clubs.

"Tralee Dynamos in Kerry play in the A Championship and it's important for the FAI to get a good geographical spread.

"I have no doubt that there are good footballers in Meath and the one way that I think it would work would be if it was done as county Meath team.

"It's probably something that would have to be discussed amongst the clubs within the MDL with a view to getting everyone in the county behind the team.

"Initially, perhaps, Meath could play in a one-off competition as a representative team, but not in a league-style format where the team would be in action on a weekly basis.

"That's all down to the FIFA rulebook at the moment," he concluded.

[El-Pietro]

The U19 system has been clearly successful for Cork City (double double and the third league title aside)

Alan Browne and Brian Lenihan came through the U19 system (Browne more so than Lenny) and were sold for non negligible fees.

Other than Lenihan our first team in 2013/14 contained Garry Buckley, John Kavanagh, Rob Lehane and Danny Morrissey who had varying levels of success over those seasons. Darren A. Murphy looks like he will be the next one to make the step up now that he has had a full season training with the first team.

We have several other young players who we are excited about and who may make the step up in the years to come, or be sold before they make the first team similar to Alan Browne was).

Our problem still remains with the gap between the U19s and the First team. It's a really big step up and it's taking the best players 2-3 seasons to establish themselves, it feels like several very good performers fall through the cracks at that point but thats anecdotal, perhaps even with an extra step they wouldn't make the step up but even still Darren Murphy has had very little football this year and that has to be stunting his progress.