Fenlon calls for league summit

[nigel-harps1954]

Would love to see the A Championship re-introduced. This time, however, it'd be better off as an under-23 league for the league clubs reserve teams as well as a third tier for intermediate clubs looking to make the step up.

It's never going to happen though.

[Sean South]

At 23 if you aren't playing first team football there is a good chance you won't make it in the league of Ireland. Under 19s is better for developing players.

[Dodge]

At 23 if you aren't playing first team football there is a good chance you won't make it in the league of Ireland. Under 19s is better for developing players.

Spot on. There might be the odd exception but anyone who isn't a LOI regular by age 23 isn't ever going to be

[El-Pietro]

Good Old (literally) Mark O'Sullivan refusing to conform to paradigms as usual.

[legendz]

Dundalk FC Youth Development Officer Martin Connolly - I was at the seminar in the Aviva Stadium a number of weeks ago and it was asked if there were any steps to go back to the U21 League (where you could play three overage players) or at some stage have a Reserve League. And as Fran Gavin quite emphatically said, ‘this is the only show in town’.
Would love to see the A Championship re-introduced. This time, however, it'd be better off as an under-23 league for the league clubs reserve teams as well as a third tier for intermediate clubs looking to make the step up.

It's never going to happen though.
At 23 if you aren't playing first team football there is a good chance you won't make it in the league of Ireland. Under 19s is better for developing players.
Spot on. There might be the odd exception but anyone who isn't a LOI regular by age 23 isn't ever going to beFrom all the comments above from those within the LoI community, an U21 league with three overage players appears the best option. For this to happen, it will need to be driven by the clubs. Hopefully the likes of Dundalk and Cork will push for such a league in the next few years. The implementation of the U19 model is understandable but should not mean the exclusion of an underage league between it and senior level. It's the sort of level that should suit some third level institutions as well even if they do not seek becoming part of the League of Ireland.

[disgruntled]

From all the comments above from those within the LoI community, an U21 league with three overage players appears the best option. For this to happen, it will need to be driven by the clubs. Hopefully the likes of Dundalk and Cork will push for such a league in the next few years. The implementation of the U19 model is understandable but should not mean the exclusion of an underage league between it and senior level. It's the sort of level that should suit some third level institutions as well even if they do not seek becoming part of the League of Ireland.

This is the way it should go I think.
It would give players out of U19's a place to develop their skills & the three over age players would give them extra time to make it to senior level.
The overage would also give players returning from injury some game time to aid recovery.

One thing however is that money must be invested in the system to aid clubs who want to enter but because of financial restraints are unable to do so.
Its no good just forming a league & expect the clubs to bear all the financial burden of entering & running teams.
Doing it at a regional level would also lessen the financial burden caused by travel expenses.

However none of this is likely to happen because the myriad of local leagues will block it at every level

[nigel-harps1954]

At 23 if you aren't playing first team football there is a good chance you won't make it in the league of Ireland. Under 19s is better for developing players.


Spot on. There might be the odd exception but anyone who isn't a LOI regular by age 23 isn't ever going to be


Apologies for being blunt, but that's pure and utter drivel.

[Dodge]

Apologies for being blunt, but that's pure and utter drivel.

Go on then. Name quality LOI players who weren't playing regularly at the age of 23

[El-Pietro]

2014 Team of the Year Member Mark O'Sullivan

[Longfordian]

In fairness to Dodge he did say there's the odd exception..but if you count the FD (!) Davy O'Sullivan was 25/26 before he played a full season and has 51 goals in his two seasons since.

[Dodge]

Right so that's 2, and there's nothing to suggest they'd have been quicker coming into the LOI circle with B teams or under 23 teams either.

[Longfordian]

Right so that's 2, and there's nothing to suggest they'd have been quicker coming into the LOI circle with B teams or under 23 teams either.

Yeah in fairness Davy played with Bray u21s then went to Fingal for a while I think. I don't know why it didn't happen for him earlier but I think he may have lost interest a bit. Was just throwing him out as an exception really.

[El-Pietro]

Theres also most goalkeepers. Mark McNulty turned 34 a couple of weeks ago, this was his 5th season as first choice.

[legendz]

One thing however is that money must be invested in the system to aid clubs who want to enter but because of financial restraints are unable to do so.
Its no good just forming a league & expect the clubs to bear all the financial burden of entering & running teams.
Doing it at a regional level would also lessen the financial burden caused by travel expenses.

However none of this is likely to happen because the myriad of local leagues will block it at every level
Why would local leagues be bothered by an U21 league? Thought they were all happy enough being big fish within their own pond.

Regards finances, let's say Cork, Limerick, Sligo, Dundalk, Pat's and UCD want an U21 league and rest of the league are ok with that, they still require a cash injection into that league?

[disgruntled]

Why would local leagues be bothered by an U21 league? Thought they were all happy enough being big fish within their own pond.

Regards finances, let's say Cork, Limerick, Sligo, Dundalk, Pat's and UCD want an U21 league and rest of the league are ok with that, they still require a cash injection into that league?

On the first part I'll give an example.
A couple of years ago Cork City applied for membership of the Munster Senior League which is really a Cork Senior League since there are no clubs outside of Cork playing in that League.
City wanted to give more experience & playing time to some of their Under 19's who were now too old for that League but not yet ready for the senior squad.
Anyway they were refused admission so they loaned out the some of the promising young players to Senior League Clubs.

Now if City enter an Under 21 League team these loan players will no longer be available to Senior League Clubs.
Plus City may also take some of the more promising Munster Senior League players for their under 21 side.
Normally City mightn't be bothered with these Munster Senior League players over the age of 19 as they would have no team to play them in.
Now there's two reasons why clubs in the Munster Senior League wouldn't like to see an Under 21 League starting.

Further City might also decide to take promising players over the age of 19 from clubs like Tralee & Killarney which these clubs wouldn't be very keen on.
So you see there are several reasons why local leagues might object to the forming of a National Under 19 League.

I'm sorry but I didn't understand the second part of your posting.
Maybe its too early in the morning for me.

[legendz]

I'm sorry but I didn't understand the second part of your posting.
Maybe its too early in the morning for me.

Thanks for answering the first part of my question. I don't think the clubs would veto the the league. If the players are coming through the city ranks, it's not like they are being poached at that stage.


"Its no good just forming a league & expect the clubs to bear all the financial burden of entering & running teams."
Is a U21 league not possible without FAI or a commercial sponsor?

[disgruntled]

Thanks for answering the first part of my question. I don't think the clubs would veto the the league. If the players are coming through the city ranks, it's not like they are being poached at that stage.


"Its no good just forming a league & expect the clubs to bear all the financial burden of entering & running teams."
Is a U21 league not possible without FAI or a commercial sponsor?

Of course not. The FAI will have to support it somehow otherwise it will just die a death.

[gufcfan]

The FAI will have to support it somehow otherwise it will just die a death.
Sounds a bit familiar somehow.

[disgruntled]

Sounds a bit familiar somehow.

Yes & that's why we need some kind of football summit run by football people not consultants.
But we must act on its recommendations & not just play around the edges like we did before.
Put a plan together, put it into practice & give it time, a lot of time.

[legendz]

http://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/sport/soccer/connolly-frustrated-by-league-of-ireland-underage-structure-1-5971323

Connolly’s anger with the League of Ireland’s underage set-up doesn’t stop there. Another bone of contention is the major roadblock placed on talented youngsters from developing beyond a club’s youth set-up into the first-team.


The Derry City game will be the last time that promising youngsters like Manny Kaguako, Conor McDonald, Marifide Mantando, Ryan Davis and Kevin Nolan will be eligible for the Dundalk U19 squad.


When the final whistle blows next Saturday, their options are seriously restricted. They either break into Stephen Kenny’s first-team or they don’t play a competitive game for the club again. For many in this situation, they drift away from football after seeing their career stunted through no fault of their own.


“When the U19 league started, there was a meeting in Dublin and Michael O’Neill, the Shamrock Rovers manager at the time asked where was the pathway for players to go from U19 to the first-team”, recalls Connolly.


“He was basically told, by a prominent member of the FAI, to be quiet, this was the way they were doing things. There was no plan b. That was three years ago and nothing has changed.


“We have some very good 18 and 19-year-olds in our set-up who are just not ready to step up to first team level at this moment but, given another year or two playing against adult players, they could develop. Now they are in limbo.


“What do we do with those lads?” he asks. “We’re after spending three or four years working with them and do we now say ‘thanks but good luck’ to them? That’s not fair on us because of the work we’ve put into them and it’s not fair on the players.


“That shows that the pathway into the first-team is incomplete in this country”, he continues. “Shamrock Rovers have an unfair advantage in that they have a complete step by step pathway: U17 team, U19 team, First Division team and then their Premier Division first-team. It’s perfect and nobody else in the country has it. Dundalk FC need to look and see how we complete that pathway.”


Barring a miraculous injection of over 100k in cash, there is no question of Dundalk fielding a B team in the First Division any time soon. However Connolly says the club are actively looking at avenues in which to stop youngsters falling through the net.


“We definitely need to look and see what our next step is”, he said. “Personally speaking, I would prefer an U21 League or an U19 League where you can play three or four overage players or lads who are involved in your first-team squad.


At the minute we have a developmental squad made up of players from the U19s and lads from the first-team squad, those who are returning from injury and who need game time. We play against local junior teams. For example, we played Woodview Celtic last week and Keith Ward played 70 minutes. The problem with that is that we are running out of opposition because the junior football season ends in May. We need to fill the gap between U19s and first-team football, be it by maybe putting a team into the Meath & District League, the AUL or the Leinster Senior League.


“To help the clubs in the west there is a Connacht League being set up. This will allow Sligo Rovers, Limerick, Galway, Athlone and Mervue to put their reserve teams into that league. Derry City and Finn Harps put reserve teams into the Ulster League, Rovers are in the First Division. If we are not careful, the clubs on the east coast will lose out. Everybody needs to take notice of this. If not, we will be left behind,” he concludes..This Connolly fella has a lot to say about underage football in the League of Ireland. I quoted him on the matter going back to 2011 before. The above is from around April this year.

My understanding is that there will be an U17 league from next August and that the FAI have been looking for expressions of interest from clubs outside of the league. It's got to be said in fairness that the U17 league will be a good addition to the league structure and seems a good age group to get involved in the league. The pathway from the U19 setup to first-team is still a glaring gap in the setup. Obviously better placed people than any of us have raised that point.

[disgruntled]

What's needed is an Under 21 League with a limit of 3 overage players.
Its so glaringly obvious its ridiculous but it must receive the proper support from the FAI.
The League of Ireland clubs need to stand up & be counted on this. Otherwise its like *issing in the wind.

If I come back here next year we will still be talking about the same thing.
Nothing is going to happen because the 60 member council who control the FAI don't want it.

[legendz]

Surely clubs can lobby for change? Make enough noise etc. It's junior club mentality to accept things as they are. I know the FAI are trying to follow some UEFA model but that doesn't mean it's without flaws, especially for that gap between U19 and senior level.

The U17 league should be a positive development.

[Charlie Darwin]

The FAI's approach has more often than not been based on consensus and compromise, except when it comes to abolishing things. If a mutually beneficial agreement can't be found, they usually just back off and leave alone, hence the complete disconnect between different levels of football.

[legendz]

Is it beyond clubs to bring about an intermediary league between U19's and senior level? You'd imagine there has to be a constructive way of bringing forward the argument? Let's take Dundalk, Cork and Limerick. If the top brass of those clubs got in contact with each other and were in favour of an intermediary league, they should make contact with other clubs and sound them out. Even if only 6 clubs were interested, they could make a case to the FAI for the introduction of a new tier. You'd imagine they'd have to bring forward an argument based on players who've come through the U19's and where they have gone from there?


If 6 clubs played each other 3 times as in the premier, they'd have a 15 game season at least. While not ideal, the level would have to start from some where. No better place than a number of clubs who are committed to the level. With the FAI looking for expressions of interest for the first division and even the underage league, it would open the possibility for some new clubs to join at that level. Clubs were against a 10 team Premier - that got reversed. Some clubs wanted the A Championship scrapped - they got their wish.


It's unlikely there will be change. If some clubs are serious about wanting a structure in place for players out of U19's, they should be more forceful in looking to bringing about change. Anything else is only junior club mentality.

[Mr A]

There's nothing to stop the clubs from working together to make things better. Except that they're generally over stretched and short of people to help.

[legendz]

There's nothing to stop the clubs from working together to make things better. Except that they're generally over stretched and short of people to help.

A few clubs don't seem to think an intermediary league will be over stretching them. Maybe it is though? It's easy talk about a lack of structures.