Dundalk Fined For Palestine Flag at Euro Game

[ATFC-1887]

Dundalk fined 20000 euro for Palestine slag vs Hadjuk Split

[White Horse]

It's a ridiculous amount compared to other fines UEFA have levied for more serious issues.

However, the gobshytes were warned by the club to keep their politics out the ground. Instead, this small merry band of morons think they are bigger than the club.

Thanks SSA.

[Nesta99]

Dundalk fined 20000 euro for Palestine slag vs Hadjuk Split

Another racial jibe by Athlone fan.......:p

Seriously though, the Spanish football federation were fined a similar amount for blatant racial chanting at an international match so this fine seems disproportionate. The SSA for all the effort the put in to creating atmosphere at Dundalk games have cost the club €24k now and are fast becoming a liability to the club, and all because of a couple of ego's of people who should know better as self proclaimed super fans...

[bluewhitearmy]

Dundalk fined 20000 euro for Palestine slag vs Hadjuk Split


Have you added another 0 by mistake there or is that actually it?

[Nesta99]

Have you added another 0 by mistake there or is that actually it?

Reported that it is 20k

[bluewhitearmy]

Reported that it is 20k

Madness way over the top.

[Mr A]

I think this merits a thread of its own. Massively disproportionate punishment for what happened.

Which is ironic in its own way.

Figure is 18k according to this: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/dundalk-fined-18k-for-palestine-flag-flown-against-hajduk-split-30530506.html

[colonelwest]

Confirmed as a 20k fine from UEFA. Throw in the 4k in pyro fines from this season and this crowd of wannabe Green Street gob****es and their glorious leader whose life revolves around the fact that he's King of the kids have cost the club 24k. Supposedly they've tried to get in touch with UEFA after the fine was announced, talk about delusions of grandeur and a complete lack of understanding of how the real world works outside of their little no pyro no party, not my problem, bubble. No doubt the most of them will go to ground now and disappear for a while. They think the everything should be done to suit them and that there are no consequences, funnily enough I can't see them stumping up the 24k they've cost the club.

[osarusan]

What a joke. I'm pretty sure I've seen an Israel flag at Limerick games in the past.

There must be some method of determining appropriate punishment in these kinds of cases. Does anybody know what the method is?

[Macy]

Confirmed as a 20k fine from UEFA. Throw in the 4k in pyro fines from this season and this crowd of wannabe Green Street gob****es and their glorious leader whose life revolves around the fact that he's King of the kids have cost the club 24k. Supposedly they've tried to get in touch with UEFA after the fine was announced, talk about delusions of grandeur and a complete lack of understanding of how the real world works outside of their little no pyro no party, not my problem, bubble. No doubt the most of them will go to ground now and disappear for a while. They think the everything should be done to suit them and that there are no consequences, funnily enough I can't see them stumping up the 24k they've cost the club.
Whatever about the flares, the ire for this fine should be reserved for uefa. Ridiculous and disproportionate.

[oriel]

The bad news continues, LMFM reporting FAI also fined Dundalk for a flare let off in Cork 3 weeks ago, another €500 for the SSA to not pay.

[dundalkfc10]

Confirmed as a 20k fine from UEFA. Throw in the 4k in pyro fines from this season and this crowd of wannabe Green Street gob****es and their glorious leader whose life revolves around the fact that he's King of the kids have cost the club 24k. Supposedly they've tried to get in touch with UEFA after the fine was announced, talk about delusions of grandeur and a complete lack of understanding of how the real world works outside of their little no pyro no party, not my problem, bubble. No doubt the most of them will go to ground now and disappear for a while. They think the everything should be done to suit them and that there are no consequences, funnily enough I can't see them stumping up the 24k they've cost the club.

Also confirmed today another €500 for the flare in Cork!

They were told to take down the flag (wrongly IMO but thats not the poinT) Were warned their would be a fine if it continued to be waved. They took it out 2 or 3 times during the game!

If I was the club, Id just say **** it SSA Banned!

[colonelwest]

Whatever about the flares, the ire for this fine should be reserved for uefa. Ridiculous and disproportionate.

Chat sh*t, get banged to put it succinctly. The regs are there and applicable to all, these lads not so much as think they're above it, they just don't care. The fine is excessive but whether it's a €20 or 20k fine these clowns have been costing the club money for years now and the chickens have come home to roost with this.

The flag was put up, the delegate asked for it to be removed, Skinny Bond and a few stewards went over and tried to take it down, blazing row with these cretins who think they should be allowed to do what they like, when they like, flag eventually got taken down. Now if the SSA hadn't gone and stuck it back up that would have been the end of it, no fine from UEFA but these boyos (their glorious leader has an axe to grind with the club after not being given a proverbial jobs for the boys position after the takeover to boot) went ahead and took it out a few times after that.

The fine will probably be reduced on appeal but the ire for this and the other 4k, actually 4.5k as the FAI have just said we're getting hit with another €500 fine for the flare at the Cork game a few weeks ago, lies solely and squarely at the door of the SSA and this little gang who think they can do what they like and get away with it. Do you think any of them will put their hand in their pocket? I highly doubt it.

[oriel]

The club need to start issuing lifetime bans to the guys, simple as that. There was a clear photo on the tv for one of them holding a flare up away to Pats this season.

Banning them for life could potentially save the club thousands, and they have been continuously warned, club took out full page ads in the match programme, sent tweets, posted on FB, website, and all were ignored.

[White Horse]

As a Dundalk fan I am focussing on the stupidity and recklessness of those who claim to be "supporters" of the club.

Fans of other clubs will no doubt point out the ridiculous and disproportionate size of the fine. However, Dundalk fans must not allow this to distract themselves from confronting a problem that has been allowed to fester and grow; the presence of a self appointed small band of hangers-on who use the club as a vehicle for their own self-aggrandisement and ego trips.

[osarusan]

I guess it's impossible, but is there any chance that legally, Dundalk can go after these clowns for the money?

[bennocelt]

Whatever about the flares, the ire for this fine should be reserved for uefa. Ridiculous and disproportionate.

Exactly, of course the club and FAI will bend the knee.

According to this flying a Palestinian flag looked well below a lot of the casual racism on show at a good few clubs
http://www.farenet.org/news/incidents-reported-fare-july-2014/

[colonelwest]

To put the total in fines another way, these clowns have cost the club 2 players or Ritchie Towell from the playing budget over a 37 week season. Absolutely beggars belief.

[outspoken]

I'd say the fact dundalks stewards actually took down the flags initially may go in their favour on appeal but I'd still imagine a heavy heavy fine at the end of it all

[White Horse]

What is especially galling is that the club tried so hard to prevent these flags been flown at the game. This following is a statement by the so called Shed Side Army at the time:

Shedside supporters club are appalled and disgusted at the actions of Dundalk FC officials at the recent Europa league qualifier game on Thursday the 17th of July where Dundalk FC officials tore down Palestinian flags which Shedside supporters club had erected behind the goals (town end).

Shedside supporters club had erected these flags as a show of solidarity with the people of Palestine purely on the basis of humanitarian grounds. The erection of the flags was not a political statement.

There was four flags, one for each of the young children that was coldly murdered on a beach in Gaza in recent days. Many powerful political leaders and nations from around the world have condemned these actions. We the Shedside supporters club wanted to show the families of these four young children and the people of Palestine and Gaza that they are in our hearts, thoughts and prayers. We see no wrong in that.

We heavily condemn the actions of the Dundalk FC officials and call for an immediate statement and apology from Dundalk FC regarding this issue. If the actions of the officials where on the orders from the UEFA official present at the game then we also condemn them and call for and immediate statement and apology.

No one should be silenced or told not to show their support for people who are been coldly murdered. We most certainly will not be silenced!!

The Shedside supporters club would appreciate it if you could share this statement and show us and the people of Palestine our's and your support.

[Longfordian]

I'd say the fact dundalks stewards actually took down the flags initially may go in their favour on appeal but I'd still imagine a heavy heavy fine at the end of it all
UEFA would probably say they should have confiscated the flags

[White Horse]

Dundalk FC can confirm that the club has been charged by the UEFA Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Committee.

These charges relate to Article 16 (2) of the Disciplinary Rules (relating to flags that have been deemed by UEFA to be inappropriate) and Article 45 UEFA Stadium Infrastructure (relating to the prohibition of standing supporters).

The total fine is €18,000 for these charges.

Dundalk FC have requested further information from UEFA on these charges before beginning any appeals process.

Dundalk FC will be making no further comment on this issue until it is fully resolved.


http://www.dundalkfc.com/statement/

[wonder88]

So the view expressed here is that people should stay quiet while around 500 children (including 4 playing ball on the beach) are slaughtered in Gazza? That club should appeal this decision I hope. People might want to look up David Norris contribution in the Seanad recently on youtube.

[bennocelt]

So the view expressed here is that people should stay quiet while around 500 children (including 4 playing ball on the beach) are slaughtered in Gazza? That club should appeal this decision I hope. People might want to look up David Norris contribution in the Seanad recently on youtube.

Exactly. Funny how some here immediately blame the fans first, rather then UEFA. it says a lot
All eyes on Ajax, wonder how many Israeli flags to be spotted.

[gufcfan]

Can't believe the fans who are turning on their own before looking at what UEFA are doing.

[outspoken]

So the view expressed here is that people should stay quiet while around 500 children (including 4 playing ball on the beach) are slaughtered in Gazza? That club should appeal this decision I hope. People might want to look up David Norris contribution in the Seanad recently on youtube.

Wouldn't surprise me if this case gets quite a lot of media attention, could even work in dundalks favour

[Longfordian]

The rules being stupid is a different argument to the fans being stupid/selfish for proceeding to display the banners knowing that they could cost the club a lot of money. If they want to make a political protest then fair play to them but do it in one of the many other places where nobody will be fined thousands of euros for them doing so. If it was LTFC I'd be furious with the fans who had already been warned.

[colonelwest]

So the view expressed here is that people should stay quiet while around 500 children (including 4 playing ball on the beach) are slaughtered in Gazza? That club should appeal this decision I hope. People might want to look up David Norris contribution in the Seanad recently on youtube.

The crowd in question wouldn't be able to find Gaza on a map or have a discussion on the topic longer than two sentences, plus they probably think he's played for England. Time and a place. You can be pretty much guaranteed these people haven't put a cent to the Red Cross appeal for Palestine or any humanitarian relief effort there (or anywhere else) either. As for David Norris and his wonderful oration in the Seanad, odds on not a sinner amongst them has seen that as well.

They were told before the game what the story was and still went ahead, they were told what would happen after it was taken down at the request of the match delegate and displayed them again several times. These boys and their glorious leader care nothing for the club they say they support and the consequences it faces from their actions, in fact a cynic might look at it that due to a lot of previous between their leader and the club that he's deliberately causing mither and sticking the knife in to get back at some people. All they care about is a bag of cans, and trying to be like Green Street.

Now there's a few decent lads in that group that I know of who put a hell of a lot of work into the tifo's, banners, songs etc and who are genuinely there for the support of the club, the football and create a good atmosphere but there's a lot of them who are only there for the wannabe hoolie "experience" who give those other lads a bad name.

[Kiki Balboa]

Absolute Joke by UEFA.

There is plenty of examples of Racism across Europe every week, (european and domestic) yet this fine is more ?? never mind that this was just a simple and small show of support over a clear humanitarian issue.

[bluewhitearmy]

Whether UEFA are wrong or not ( which I think they are) Dundalk fans have every right to be annoyed that some of their own continued to act in a way that they had been told would cost the club money and by doing so could cost the club quite a lot. They had made their point having been asked to take them down they should have.

Wonder 88 you are talking nonsense imo there is no-one complaining about the point the flags were there to make and it is quite clear that is not the issue.

[Charlie Darwin]

If I'm reading the Dundalk statement right, they were fined not only for the flag but for fans standing up. That is beyond petty from UEFA.

[dundalkfc10]

If I'm reading the Dundalk statement right, they were fined not only for the flag but for fans standing up. That is beyond petty from UEFA.

Was fans standing behind the goals, who it seems wouldnt move when asked by stewards, so stewards justs aid **** it instead of arguing with them and let them stay there! These lads would be middle aged men who stand around there so they are just as much to blame as the SSA and their Palestine flags!

[bennocelt]

Was fans standing behind the goals, who it seems wouldnt move when asked by stewards, so stewards justs aid **** it instead of arguing with them and let them stay there! These lads would be middle aged men who stand around there so they are just as much to blame as the SSA and their Palestine flags!


Why didnt you go over and tell them to take it down?

[Nesta99]

In relation to the fine for people standing behind the goal, if stewards made a half assed effort to move these people then the club has to bear some responsibility for not employing people who would do the job properly especially on a european night. It is not as if it hasnt been highlighted before that the cost of fines incurred would go a long way toward proper stewarding that would prevent problems.

I dont know why the flag wasnt confiscated to be returned after the match if the attitude of the ssa was apparent when they were asked to move it.

The leader of the ssa kids is like a cartoon character, i witnessed him being asked for a ticket stub to get back in to Oriel during a match few years back, the look on his face was comical with pure disbelief that the security guy didnt know him and didnt let him just walk on in to the players and officials entrance.

[Nesta99]

Exactly, of course the club and FAI will bend the knee.

According to this flying a Palestinian flag looked well below a lot of the casual racism on show at a good few clubs
http://www.farenet.org/news/incidents-reported-fare-july-2014/

'
17 July 2014 – UEFA Europa League: Dundalk FC v HNK Hajduk Split
Ivorian Hajduk winger, Jean Evrard Kouassi, was subject to racist chants performed by a group of Dundalk fans.
Details of the incident were passed to UEFA for action.'

First i've heard of this and must have been such a big deal that its not been mentioned anywhere else??

[Charlie Darwin]

First I've heard of it too. The player seemingly didn't make any complaint or else we'd have heard about it. It was presumably a member of the public reporting to Fare.

[Kiki Balboa]

The player Dived in the first half and was booed for the rest of the game.

[DannyInvincible]

So the view expressed here is that people should stay quiet while around 500 children (including 4 playing ball on the beach) are slaughtered in Gazza? That club should appeal this decision I hope. People might want to look up David Norris contribution in the Seanad recently on youtube.

That's all well and good; Norris made a terrificly spirited contribution in the Seanad and this particular regulation is a stupid, subjectively-enforced one, but if you want to take part in UEFA competition, unfortunately, you have to play by all of UEFA's rules. The UEFA official at the game asked Dundalk to get rid of the flags, but that wasn't done. Hence, Dundalk have been fined in accordance with said stupid rule.

What's the difference, though, between a group of Dundalk fans waving Palestine flags and, say, Celtic fans waving Irish tricolours, or Ajax fans waving Israel flags? They're all inherently political statements, but how do UEFA decide which political statements are appropriate and which are inappropriate/worthy of punishment?

Lucky UEFA didn't spot the Ché Guevara flag in the Showgrounds when Rosenborg visited!


There must be some method of determining appropriate punishment in these kinds of cases. Does anybody know what the method is?

Pretty sure it's just left to the whim of UEFA's disciplinary body. The relevant regulation is exceptionally vague and ambiguous.


I guess it's impossible, but is there any chance that legally, Dundalk can go after these clowns for the money?

Don't see how the flag-wavers would be legally liable, to be honest. The flag-wavers, although inconsiderate of their club's obligations, weren't breaking any law, to the best of my knowledge. Unless they were in breach of some specific terms of entry... It was Dundalk's sole responsibility under UEFA's rules to ensure that no such display occurred inside the stadium though. The club failed to ensure that.

[Nesta99]

The player Dived in the first half and was booed for the rest of the game.

Was about to suggest that this might have been the issue.

[oriel]

The fine by UEFA is completely unreasonable, and it appears to be broken down under 'offensive or inappropriate flag' and then on another area of fans standing. I have to say I didn't notice those standing, but to get from the turnstile and the ground toilets to the shed side, you need to walk behind the town end goal. So is there a fine now built in if any supporter stopped or didn't walk fast enough. This just sounds ridiculous. If they watched the match from there and weren't moved, it's a problem of stewarding control, however this must have been a very limited few who did watch from behind the goal.

With regards to the flag, yes we know its a national flag but its also deemed to be taking one side in a conflict and much that it annoys me to see what is happening over there, a football found and especially in UEFA match is not where this type of protest should be taking place.

Im quite sure the club can demonstrate that they got agreement with these guys to take down the flag before ko, and tried to do all they could, and this should be used in their appeal and hopefully a reduced fine. This still doesn't take away the excessive fine that UEFA came out with and also the big problem the club have with a very small minority who watch games in the shed side and who appear to be hellbent on contributing fine after fine to the club.

[oriel]

Was about to suggest that this might have been the issue.

And he was eventually booked for a very late challenge towards the end of the match.

[Charlie Darwin]

The player Dived in the first half and was booed for the rest of the game.
Let's hope the footage doesn't get doctored :p

[geysir]

If I'm reading the Dundalk statement right, they were fined not only for the flag but for fans standing up. That is beyond petty from UEFA.
I think the rule around political messages is a progressive one.

Article 16 - Order and security at UEFA competition matches
(e) 'the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of apolitical, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature;'

If you want all right wing, racist, fascist symbols/flags be banned from football grounds then Uefa rightfully has to ban all expressions that do not fit at a sporting event.
Uefa can't have a bias. Also the fine can't be just porportional depending on sympathies with one wing or another.
Robbie Fowler got fined for his show of support at one game for the Liverpool dockers.
That list of incidents reported to Fare during July 2014. (http://www.farenet.org/news/incidents-reported-fare-july-2014/) does not carry any weight of veracity or proof. Just because something is on that list does not mean it happened, nor does it mean there is proof that it happened, eg the Dundalk incident mentioned
Overall, it's a rational price to pay in order to rid football grounds of expressions of hate and racism.

In Dundalk's case, it's somewhat farcical that they pay the same fine as Real Madrid would for the same infringement. Isn't there some country that inflicts motoring offence fines in proportion to earnings?

[Eminence Grise]

Germany, I think, Geysir.

Surely it's legally possible to make it a condition of entry that fans indemnify their club for any of their actions that cause the club to be fined? Maybe it's something that needs to be done on a league basis.

[dong]

I guess that's the away end upgrade shelved for another few years?

[Nesta99]

Article 16 - Order and security at UEFA competition matches
(e) 'the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of apolitical, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature;

This is so broad it could really include anything. Celtic jerseys at a Republic of Ireland v say England or Scotland could be deemed offensive by some under political, religious, or provocative terms. Celtic fans using the tricolour (im not picking on celtic) at european games. I understand the principle and necessity of such rules but a mockery of the rules happens with obvious inconsistency eg when overt racism recieves token attention.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think the rule around political messages is a progressive one.

Article 16 - Order and security at UEFA competition matches
(e) 'the use of gestures, words, objects or any other means to transmit any message that is not fit for a sports event, particularly messages that are of apolitical, ideological, religious, offensive or provocative nature;'

If you want all right wing, racist, fascist symbols/flags be banned from football grounds then Uefa rightfully has to ban all expressions that do not fit at a sporting event.

And this includes national flags?

[geysir]

And this includes national flags?
The flag waving of Palestinian flags was interpreted as a political message and inappropriate to the game.
There is no hard and fast, rigid interpretation of the statute and Uefa have their own standards of reasonable proof.
If this was a regular enough event at a Dundalk game, Dundalk fans with Palestine ethnicity who are also promoting their ethnicity, then that would be grounds for an explanation to the Uefa observer or if it went further - solid grounds for an appeal.
Offhand I can think of old Rangers fc who successfully appealed a Uefa fine, their fans getting with giving fascist salutes to Israeli fans, something to do with the old tradition of the red hand of ulster defence, pulled out of nowhere.

[bennocelt]

And what about the poppy on the jersey thing with England.
Would I be stopped from entering the ground if I had a Palestinian badge on?

[Nesta99]

Offhand I can think of old Rangers fc who successfully appealed a Uefa fine, their fans getting with giving fascist salutes to Israeli fans, something to do with the old tradition of the red hand of ulster defence, pulled out of nowhere.

That was just cheeky!!

So on the basis of ethnicity the tricolour at Celtic games could be overlooked even if it is provocative. Should have told the delegate that we have a couple of palestinian fans - i doubt he would have asked to meet them and is about as legit as the rangers bluff