View Full Version : Dundalk Fined For Palestine Flag at Euro Game
bennocelt
26/08/2014, 5:21 PM
Ok on now to the next conflict.......Syrian flags anyone?
DannyInvincible
26/08/2014, 6:20 PM
True, but it seems from previous fines they willfully accept them (Unless I am wrong). And if they accept this fine then why are they even bothering appealing it?
I don't know if it's willful or not - I don't know who'd be happy to receive a fine - but what can they do other than accept such fines really? They're in no position to refuse to pay. (I think UEFA already deduct it from their competition bonus anyway.) They can appeal the fine all they like but the end result will most likely be the same; they'll eventually have to accept the fine and might even have thrown further money down the drain on any appeal. If a club takes part in UEFA competition, they explicitly acknowledge UEFA's authority and accept the over-riding application of UEFA's governing and disciplinary regulations. The only other option is to refuse to participate in UEFA competitions or cause some serious bother between the FAI and UEFA, thereby possibly risking domestic punishment also. What other options are there to resolve these supporter issues without blaming the supporters concerned and banning them from Oriel Park?
ATFC-1887
28/08/2014, 11:33 AM
Dundalk fined 20000 euro for Palestine slag vs Hadjuk Split
"Palestine slag" Oh god
nigel-harps1954
28/08/2014, 2:07 PM
"Palestine slag" Oh god
Be honest, you were waiting for someone else to point that out..
"Palestine slag" Oh god
Mistake or have we been discussing a completely separate topic for the last 8 pages?
ATFC-1887
28/08/2014, 4:10 PM
Be honest, you were waiting for someone else to point that out..
No...Somebody already did, but i didn't notice until now.
geysir
28/08/2014, 10:29 PM
I'd say the rule is more self-interested than progressive; UEFA seek to promote as neutral and apolitical an image and governing arena as possible, lest potentially-provocative imagery were to deter sponsors and investment. Offend nobody; be everyone's friend; that's the mantra. As for my own opinion of the rule, it's a terribly numbing and sanitising one that neuters football crowds and disarms them of their human sentiments, character, qualities and emotions. What are football teams really if not channels through which the human identities of their fans can be expressed? Since when did a football match have to be such a blandly cordial affair? What is and isn't objectively fit for a sporting event anyway? In an ideal world, waving Palestine flags at a Europa League qualifier would be no problem, even if orchestrated by clueless, ignorant idiots with little knowledge of the Middle Eastern conflict. I say, let fans display what they want and if something falls foul of the law of the land, then the law of the land can deal with it. It's a regressive UEFA law, that is; it stunts and chokes expression within stadia to a degree that not even the law of the land does. Need UEFA really make it their business? Is that practical?
The issues here are not the few expressions of political causes that one might come across on occasion, it's the pervasive rot of racism and fascism that infects the atmosphere at football stadiums. if you want to rid the game of all expressions of racism and fascism, even their cynical sanitised political versions, then you have to ban all political expressions not appropriate to a sporting event and I really fail to see how that should have a negative effect on atmosphere.
If at game in the 6 counties, you see a banner with the loud initials KAT displayed then you'd think that means Kill All Taigs, then you go up close and and see in small letters in the corner, Keep Antrim Tidy.
So what does not fall foul of the law, does not equate to acceptable mandatory standards of decency and respect.
What's legal does not define the standards of morality that we want at a sporting event, which is a non political, multi cultural event.
Within those UEFA limitations there is plenty of scope to express whatever but it's not a place to demonstrate your political cause no matter matter how worthy you feel your cause to be.
TheBoss
29/08/2014, 3:14 AM
The daft thing about this situation is that when fans of Celtic held a Pro-Palestinian stance in 2009 against Hapoel Tel-Aviv at Celtic Park, fans were urged by some groups to wave Palestinian flags in the stadium and many did, search the web yourselves if you want to see them but what did UEFA do?, absolutely nothing.
Nah Nah Nah Nah
29/08/2014, 8:11 AM
nevermind what I had posted here.....
GypsyBlackCat
29/08/2014, 8:16 AM
The daft thing about this situation is that when fans of Celtic held a Pro-Palestinian stance in 2009 against Hapoel Tel-Aviv at Celtic Park, fans were urged by some groups to wave Palestinian flags in the stadium and many did, search the web yourselves if you want to see them but what did UEFA do?, absolutely nothing.
Judging by the statement by Dundalk it looks like UEFA have said Israeli and Palestinian flags are considered 'political' this season due to the current conflict.
White Horse
29/08/2014, 8:27 AM
Judging by the statement by Dundalk it looks like UEFA have said Israeli and Palestinian flags are considered 'political' this season due to the current conflict.
The Israelis and Palestinians have been in confict for almost 70 years. There is nothing different about the current phase of this long standing conflict.
There is no point in looking for logic in the UEFA position.
colonelwest
29/08/2014, 9:49 AM
Legia fans, a great bunch of lads:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwJchdXCcAAgpGY.jpg
Interesting to see what UEFA do over this and the other massive banner at the game last night
Legia fans, a great bunch of lads:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwJchdXCcAAgpGY.jpg
Interesting to see what UEFA do over this and the other massive banner at the game last night
Misprint. Their actually just big fans of talcum powder.
And don't like astronomy.
Or Sting.
Or messy hair.
In fact if your hair is messy, you should cover it up, like with a hood or something.
Sean South
29/08/2014, 12:05 PM
Legia fans, a great bunch of lads:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwJchdXCcAAgpGY.jpg
Interesting to see what UEFA do over this and the other massive banner at the game last night
That's a old photo maybe 7 or 8 years old now. This is what they had last night.
https://scontent-a-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t1.0-9/10577180_858459204204659_5126755518706169681_n.jpg
Sligo Rovers and Derry were lucky uefa didn't fine them must have been a dozen Palestine flags and a banner saying solidarity with Gaza at the Derry game vs that Welsh club
DannyInvincible
29/08/2014, 1:34 PM
that Welsh club
Aberystwyth had poppies on their jerseys also.
redobit
29/08/2014, 1:48 PM
Whats the 6<1 on the banner about?
Charlie Darwin
29/08/2014, 1:50 PM
6 is less than 1. They scored six goals to Celtic's one and lost the game.
White Horse
31/08/2014, 9:57 AM
Trade union firebrand Brendan Ogle has come to the defence of Dundalk Football Club fans who unfurled a Palestinian flag at a European match and landed the club with a massive €18,000 fine from Uefa. And Mr Ogle - a season ticket holder and lifelong fan of the club - has issued a formal complaint to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland (BAI) against RTE and the station's soccer pundit Richard Sadlier.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ogle-flies-flag-for-palestiniansupporting-soccer-fans-30549643.html#sthash.PsXTtwij.bn7OEKxm.dpuf
Getting ridiculous at this stage.
jinxy lilywhite
31/08/2014, 10:45 AM
its a ****ing joke ffs
I don't see his point really. the sindo has confirmed with uefa that we have gotten the fine. so that dispels the conspiracy theories from the SSA.
as for sitting with suits- ST were invalid for the match so he choose to sit with the suits rather than show solidarity.
would love to know were people like him were in 2012 when we were rock bottom and needed publicity to help our plight. he was nowhere to be seen.
outspoken
31/08/2014, 5:40 PM
http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/29005409?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Linfield fined 15,000 I think it said for unprohibated standing at Europa league game. UEFA stuck for cash or something?
wonder88
31/08/2014, 7:21 PM
The Broadcasting Act crossed my mind as well after seeing Sadlier's contribution. There was a recent complaint upheld in relation to a discussion on same sex marriage on rte Mooney Show(I think).It was clear that soccer republic programme was one sided and did not give those who expressed solidarity with the people being bombed in Gaza any opportunity to put their case. Instead they were called "not real fans"
It was clear that rte news had a certain line on the war on Gaza, you would not know who fired the shells which killed many civilians in the UN schools by looking at the news on rte tv for example.
I think the producers on soccer republic forgot that they work for a public funded/owned broadcaster. As for Sadlier he works for the Sindo also; a private company who can and do take sides in debates as they have in this conflict/war. Very amateur behaviour from both Sadlier and soccer republic to not realise that they were operating under the broadcasting act.
DannyInvincible
31/08/2014, 7:50 PM
The Broadcasting Act crossed my mind as well after seeing Sadlier's contribution. There was a recent complaint upheld in relation to a discussion on same sex marriage on rte Mooney Show(I think).It was clear that soccer republic programme was one sided and did not give those who expressed solidarity with the people being bombed in Gaza any opportunity to put their case. Instead they were called "not real fans" and did Sadlier say they were drunks also?
It was clear that rte news had a certain line on the war on Gaza, you would not know who fired the shells which killed many civilians in the UN schools by looking at the news on rte tv for example.
I think the producers on soccer republic forgot that they work for a public funded/owned broadcaster. As for Sadlier he works for the Sindo also; a private company who can and do take sides in debates as they have in this conflict/war. Very amateur behaviour from both Sadlier and soccer republic to not realise that they were operating under the broadcasting act.
What did RTÉ broadcast or Sadlier say exactly that was in breach of any duties either had under the Broadcasting Act? What case do the perpetrators have that wasn't aired? They broke the rules and knew full well they were doing so.
Sadlier said of those who waved the flags: "The problem here is a small group of of people - I don't like calling them fans - have completely stitched up the club." He advised to "stop calling them supporters" before stating they should be banned from football for life for willfully and deliberately defying the club whilst knowing their actions would result in heavy punishment. He said nothing about them being drunks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sGQ8iCGksw
The SSA only care for the old freedom-of-speech chestnut when it suits them then, is it?...
wonder88
31/08/2014, 8:58 PM
My mistake, he did not say they were drunk, it was on twitter maybe the suggestion was made, that is why I put ?. Edit it now.
The case Ogle is making is that there should be an opposite point of view put in the discussion. Sometime freedom of speech means having to listen to what many people consider silly or stupid arguments.
DannyInvincible
31/08/2014, 9:16 PM
The case Ogle is making is that there should be an opposite point of view put in the discussion. Sometime freedom of speech means having to listen to what many people consider silly or stupid arguments.
Does the Broadcasting Act stipulate that such balance is necessary? Maybe it does; I've not read it.
What is the opposing argument anyway?
Eminence Grise
31/08/2014, 9:46 PM
AFAIK, the BAI complaints mechanism that Ogle is using applies to news and current affairs programming, not sports. Sadlier was asked for his view on a football matter - the UEFA fine and its implications for Dundalk - not for his views on the middle east, thereby keeping the discussion firmly away from news and current affairs. I'd be surprised if the complaint was entertained, but how the code was interpreted in the Mooney case was very unexpected. It's led to a great deal of uncertainty and allows anybody to gripe if they feel that balance is missing from a broadcast, even where none is needed (like a concert or book review for instance).
pineapple stu
03/09/2014, 12:54 PM
St Johnstone fined the same amount for the same "offence" (http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1186-september-2014/11837-st-johnstone-s-fine-for-palestine-flag-disproportionate)
Consistent at least.
disgruntled
08/09/2014, 8:42 AM
The problem here is not that Dundalk were fined but the people who caused them to be fined.
By all means show support for whatever cause you want but be prepared to accept responsibility for your actions.
citybone
08/09/2014, 7:53 PM
The problem here is not that Dundalk were fined but the people who caused them to be fined.
By all means show support for whatever cause you want but be prepared to accept responsibility for your actions.
Palestine are a FIFA and AFC member. Its not like they were waving Kosovo or Northern Cyprus flags (which would be much more confrontational)
The Legia display is right. Uefa care more about €€€ than football. This is a huge financial setback for small club's like Dundalk and Inverness.
colonelwest
08/09/2014, 8:53 PM
The problem here is not that Dundalk were fined but the people who caused them to be fined.
By all means show support for whatever cause you want but be prepared to accept responsibility for your actions.
Certain people and their social media soapboxes have gone oddly into radio silence about the whole thing since it came out about the similar fines to other clubs, didn't see that one coming at all!
bennocelt
09/09/2014, 7:18 AM
Certain people and their social media soapboxes have gone oddly into radio silence about the whole thing since it came out about the similar fines to other clubs, didn't see that one coming at all!
Eh? Think you miss the point, again. The fines for all the listed clubs are stupid, even Legia.
White Horse
09/09/2014, 8:10 AM
Eh? Think you miss the point, again. The fines for all the listed clubs are stupid, even Legia.
There are two separate issues.
Firstly, the UEFA position is ridiculous. Secondly, the supporters who raised the flag knowing that Dundalk would be fined were reckless and did not have the best interest of the club at heart.
bennocelt
09/09/2014, 8:22 AM
There are two separate issues.
Firstly, the UEFA position is ridiculous. Secondly, the supporters who raised the flag knowing that Dundalk would be fined were reckless and did not have the best interest of the club at heart.
Depends on your viewpoint
Eh? Think you miss the point, again. The fines for all the listed clubs are stupid, even Legia.
I think you're missing the point. Stupid or not, everyone knows the score before they put them up. Legia are clearly OK with paying that fine (as you can't do a display like that without club knowledge/assistance). Dundalk aren't OK with it, as they tried to stop the flags being shown
bennocelt
09/09/2014, 9:08 AM
I think you're missing the point. Stupid or not, everyone knows the score before they put them up. Legia are clearly OK with paying that fine (as you can't do a display like that without club knowledge/assistance). Dundalk aren't OK with it, as they tried to stop the flags being shown
Was a Palestine flag at the hurling the other day, wonder did anyone make a complaint?
I am sure you know that supporter groups on the continent have a lot of leeway. Certainly in Basel the ultras have pretty much free reign over what they can and cant do. Just look at the final game of last season, or the walk through Bern to the stadium on cup final day. Crikey, was mad.
But in dear old Ireland we love silly rules dont we!
its a ****ing joke ffs
would love to know were people like him were in 2012 when we were rock bottom and needed publicity to help our plight. he was nowhere to be seen.
It would actually make you sick. We had the same craic for the last few years, every chancer was a "lifelong fan".
Wont be a sign of them until we win the league again, in another 30 years.
Dodge
09/09/2014, 10:22 AM
Was a Palestine flag at the hurling the other day, wonder did anyone make a complaint?
I am sure you know that supporter groups on the continent have a lot of leeway. Certainly in Basel the ultras have pretty much free reign over what they can and cant do. Just look at the final game of last season, or the walk through Bern to the stadium on cup final day. Crikey, was mad.
But in dear old Ireland we love silly rules dont we!
It's not about the rule, it's about the ability to pay the fine!
You're not comparing UEFA rules to the GAA are you?
White Horse
09/09/2014, 10:49 AM
You're not comparing UEFA rules to the GAA are you?
A 20 stone man invades the pitch to "remonstrate with the ref" during a big match. The game is held up while he is restrained and taken down by six stewards. The man is now a folk hero and feted everywhere he goes in Mayo.
if this was football, he would be banned for life. The two sports are very very different.
outspoken
09/09/2014, 1:26 PM
I see a bohs fan had a Palestine flag with him in Sligo last night (didn't really display it to be fair) and one of the stewards was pointing at it but nothing after that, not that there's anything wrong with having it at a league game I'd just say LOI clubs are a little edgy about the subject at the minute.
colonelwest
09/09/2014, 1:51 PM
Eh? Think you miss the point, again. The fines for all the listed clubs are stupid, even Legia.
Not at all, it seems yourself and a few others seem to be doing just that. It simply boils down to two things:
1) Time and a place
2) You play in UEFA competitions, you play by their rules.
Anything else is soapboxing and superflous and has long since gone past the border of look at me, attention seeking territory. Not from you now mind, I mean them, and they have a long and varied history of doing that exact thing.
Your defence of it seems to be on the basis of ah sure it's grand, work away and do as you like. In that case I hereby grant Dundalk FC 6 points for a win and away goals count as quintuple.
Now unfortunately I can't very well make that happen as I have absolutely no authority to rewrite the rules, but sure it'll be grand and it's perfectly acceptable just because I said so and fcuk everyone else who does play by the rules and regulations.
bennocelt
09/09/2014, 2:04 PM
Not at all, it seems yourself and a few others seem to be doing just that. It simply boils down to two things:
1) Time and a place
2) You play in UEFA competitions, you play by their rules.
.
Not really, they dont own football
Otherwise its a difference of opinion.
Not really, they dont own football
Otherwise its a difference of opinion.
Dundalk do have the option of not entering the Europa League and flying as many flags as they want...
colonelwest
09/09/2014, 2:35 PM
Not really, they dont own football
Otherwise its a difference of opinion.
http://badsentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Surprised-Patrick-6.gif
Dundalk do have the option of not entering the Europa League and flying as many flags as they want...
Hopefully we wont be playing in the Europa League next season.
Hopefully we wont be playing in the Europa League next season.
Good point. Does anyone know who runs the UEFA Champion's League?
Charlie Darwin
09/09/2014, 5:33 PM
Good point. Does anyone know who runs the UEFA Champion's League?
The GAA I think.
ArdeeBhoy
09/09/2014, 5:57 PM
UEFA & Legia are *******s...who deserve all the flack that comes their way.
Dundalk, St.Johnstone & Celtic shouldn't be compared to those morons.
DannyInvincible
09/09/2014, 10:04 PM
But in dear old Ireland we love silly rules dont we!
How might Dundalk have more appropriately dealt with the matter though? They can't just decide to ignore competition rules without punishment or opting out of UEFA competition. I'd take the flag-wavers a bit more seriously were they to acknowledge responsibility for their actions and (somehow) cover the fine they cost their club. The fact is they left Dundalk up sh*t creek. Why should Dundalk tolerate a few selfish idiots intent on repeatedly breaching regulations without any concern for the repercussions?
Not really, they dont own football
Is there another confederation governing football and organising professional competition in Europe to which Dundalk can instead align themselves?
NeverFeltBetter
10/09/2014, 12:35 AM
It seems we have reached a clear divide between those who acknowledge that tournament organisers make rules and clubs follow them, for better or worse, and those who have a more liberal interpretation of how the real world works.
Come off it lads. Dundalk are in no position to thumb their nose at UEFA over an issue like this, which seems to be what you want them to do.
Charlie Darwin
10/09/2014, 12:42 AM
I think most people here would agree that it's a very heavy fine for something that many of us don't think should be contentious, but nevertheless Dundalk were prepared to abide by UEFA's rules and they are unfortunately paying a heavy price for the obstinance of a small number of their fans. It's a harsh lesson for the club but I would be surprised if they'll be so accommodating to a small group who have shown flagrant disregard for the interests of their hometown club. In hindsight, they should have confiscated the flag and, if that wasn't agreeable, they should have thrown the fans out, but we can all sympathise with the people within the club who wanted to give them a fair chance to support their club in a big game.
GypsyBlackCat
11/09/2014, 11:41 AM
Not really, they dont own football
Otherwise its a difference of opinion.
They own the UEFA Europa League competition. It's UEFA's competition. Once you agree to enter, you argee to abided by UEFA's rules.
Here's an example. My local night club don't own fun. But if I went in and started dancing on the tables after begin warned not to, I'd be barred. Why? Because it's their club and their rules.
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