View Full Version : Fox Hunting
sligoman
06/11/2004, 2:41 PM
Around 150,000 people are expected to turn out across Britain today for the start of the new fox-hunting season in a show of defiance over the proposed ban on the sport.
More than 300 hunts are meeting in England, Scotland and Wales, with supporters more determined than ever that this will not be their last hunting season.
MPs have voted in favour of an outright ban on hunting with hounds and ministers have threatened to use the Parliament Act to give them supremacy over the Lords, which has voted to allow registered hunts to continue.
But Darren Hughes, from the Countryside Alliance, said hunt supporters were confident that growing support for their cause would ensure the sport survived.
Read it all on www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13246817,00.html
What are your opinions on this? I agree that it should be banned.
TheJamaicanP.M.
06/11/2004, 2:59 PM
:mad: I would definitly like it to be banned. Cruelty on behalf of the social elite.
Closed Account 2
06/11/2004, 3:02 PM
Ban it, too cruel
Pat O' Banton
06/11/2004, 11:09 PM
The idea that entertainment should be in the form of the death of another living thing is bizzare to say the least.
For all those who argue it isn't cruel; imagine being chased for a couple of thosand yards knowing that if you were caught you were going to die. Finally your still live shattered body being ripped apart by a pack of dogs. Not cruel? catch yourself on. Shows a certain sickness in the mind of anyone who finds 'entertainment' in the hunt.
And any supporter don't give any crap arguements about pest control because you know them to be dubious to say the least.
Find myself in the unusual position of backing Sligoman, any chance of a pole on this?
sligoman
07/11/2004, 4:26 PM
Find myself in the unusual position of backing Sligoman, any chance of a pole on this?
Why is it unusual that you are backing me Pat? :D
liamon
08/11/2004, 8:40 AM
The idea that entertainment should be in the form of the death of another living thing is bizzare to say the least.
First off, I've no real interest in any blood "sport". I'm not one to spend my weekends out in the cold, unless there is football involved. But I think your argument also applies to fishing and shooting. To ban one and not all is daft.
Yet, would people want it taken this far?
I doubt it. Why is there a difference?
I think this is due to the fact that people are no longer closely connected to the countryside and to wildlife. Packs of animals chase and kill others everyday. It's totally natural. And animals die every day to give us pleasure. We don't need to eat steak, we could live on plants. We eat meat coz it gives us pleasure. No one cares about this unnecessary death.
To be frank, I personally don't care if a few foxes, rabbits or trout die. They're only animals and people have hunted them for millenia. What right have you to tell another individual to stop this behaviour now? For many people, not just rich landowners, these pursuits provide entertainment and social interaction.
After the world goes veggie, I'll listen to an argument in favour of outright bans. Until then, I'm not bothered.
Pat O' Banton
08/11/2004, 9:43 AM
Packs of animals chase and kill others everyday. It's totally natural. And animals die every day to give us pleasure. We don't need to eat steak, we could live on plants. We eat meat coz it gives us pleasure. No one cares about this unnecessary death.
I am a vegetarian (I suddenly feel as smug as a ManUre fan :eek: ) so that does colour my jugement. I wouldn't really mind if the 'sports' you mentioned above were banned, but my point was also in the absolute cruelty and terror that a fox must undergo before its death and the fact that this is what people call entertainment. If people really do enjoy the thrill of the chase wy not do drag hunting, one can only presume because they get a certain thrill in watching something be ripped apart while still alive, pretty sick in my book.
Poll now added.
Personally, I'd rather ban the toffs that go fox hunting, and their stupid suits etc. rather than because of the cruelty aspect (as I suspect is the overriding emotion of most of the "Labour" MP's that support the ban).
Other points I think are relevant are:
1) Urban dwellers telling the country dwellers how to live their lives. It's very similar to the whole planning debate over here, where the city people want to keep the countryside "pretty" for their day trips there.
2) If you ban fox hunting what is next? Fishing? When conservation is a major role of any angling club. It's yet more nanny statism (expect Ireland to follow suit soon)
3) Is hunting with hounds really that different from hunting with a gun? Is it really less cruel to risk a fox getting a flesh wound and dying after several days of agony?
4) Foxes are vermin. People wouldn't have a problem hunting rats in a similar way.
Pat O' Banton
08/11/2004, 10:12 AM
Poll now added.
Personally, I'd rather ban the toffs that go fox hunting, and their stupid suits etc. rather than because of the cruelty aspect (as I suspect is the overriding emotion of most of the "Labour" MP's that support the ban).
Other points I think are relevant are:
1) Urban dwellers telling the country dwellers how to live their lives. It's very similar to the whole planning debate over here, where the city people want to keep the countryside "pretty" for their day trips there.
2) If you ban fox hunting what is next? Fishing? When conservation is a major role of any angling club. It's yet more nanny statism (expect Ireland to follow suit soon)
3) Is hunting with hounds really that different from hunting with a gun? Is it really less cruel to risk a fox getting a flesh wound and dying after several days of agony?
4) Foxes are vermin. People wouldn't have a problem hunting rats in a similar way.
The vermin agrguement is fairly limited. If this was really a pest control issue won't a more effecient way be found to control fox numbers greater number of traps, sterilisation etc.
Anyway surely you lot across the water should be against the ban as it is likely to result in an influx of gits regularly to the hunts that take place in Ireland.
Country dwellers have no worries about forcing things like the change of clocks (which always coincide with an increase in the amount of road deaths) on urban dwellers.
It is cruel, and it is wrong. Its little better than a fella going out to kill a cat simply because he likes mice.
Hunted foxes are not used as a food source, its just a "pleasure" killing. Thats not to say that if it were for food would make it any better.
I dont believe that people should be allowed to legally participate in such barbaric 'sports'.
liamon
08/11/2004, 11:04 AM
Hunted foxes are not used as a food source, its just a "pleasure" killing. Thats not to say that if it were for food would make it any better.
.
A lot of "hunted" fish don't get eaten either. Should we ban fishing?
liamon
08/11/2004, 11:08 AM
I am a vegetarian ....do drag hunting, one can only presume because they get a certain thrill in watching something be ripped apart while still alive, pretty sick in my book.
Fair dues on the veggie thing. At least you're consistent.
As for watching things getting ripped apart, why do David Attenborough and Co. always show the lions ripping zebra apart? Coz we like to watch it. Hence - Society is sick. Conclusion - ban society!
Now, off to Kerry for a night of clubbing..... ;)
Now, off to Kerry for a night of clubbing..... ;)
:D
Any apologies for the fact it now seems that it was a virus that killed the seals, and the "bullet/nail" marks were actually seagulls? Didn't think so, too busy hugging a tree somewhere...
^^^^^
If its the Thrill Of The Chase, well play hide and seek or something, killing an animal for fun isnt an option IMO.
A lot of "hunted" fish don't get eaten either. Should we ban fishing?
I believe fish caught that arent for for eating should be thrown back.
Pat O' Banton
08/11/2004, 12:41 PM
No it's not, it's a pleasure hunting. People don't go to horse races salivating at the thought of seeing the jockeys whip the horses. People don't go to football matches for the thrill of seeing injuries. And people who hunt are not some weirdos who get their kicks from watching the fox dying, it's the thrill of the chase...
Is whipping horses or players getting injuries the point of Horse racing or football. The point of hunting is to watch an animal get killed.
So you would have no problem if the fox was just savaged, but left alive? Fish are thrown back, but only after their battle to avoid being dragged by a hook into an alien environment. I don't think they're offered any counselling for post traumatic stress either...
Don't think they're savaged either Conor, just exhausted. The number of repeat catches of fish show it doesn't do long term damage.
The vermin agrguement is fairly limited. If this was really a pest control issue won't a more effecient way be found to control fox numbers greater number of traps, sterilisation etc.
Not really the point I was trying to make. It's the one place they fall down on, trying to justify it as anything other than a sport, where they don't actually catch that many.
The point I was trying to make is if it was rats that were being hunted, by "ordinary" people, I doubt anyone would care. Foxes are the lovable rogues of city wildlife who occasionally raid and empty bins, in the countryside they are vermin that kill for fun.
Pat O' Banton
08/11/2004, 1:19 PM
No, it's not. The point of hunting is the hunt. Would have thought the name of the sport would give a clue.
Why not drag hunt instead then?
Aberdonian Stu
08/11/2004, 1:57 PM
Being a UCD fan I have no issues with the social elite but I don't like fox-hunting because it isn't a fair fight. So ban it.
So you would have no problem if the fox was just savaged, but left alive? Fish are thrown back, but only after their battle to avoid being dragged by a hook into an alien environment.
Don't think they're savaged either Conor, just exhausted. The number of repeat catches of fish show it doesn't do long term damage.
There was my answer. Macy got there first.
Admittedly fishing can be seen as being barbaric also, but personally, I just cant see the buzz is seeing a fox get ripped limb from limb!
Jim Smith
08/11/2004, 2:01 PM
:D
Any apologies for the fact it now seems that it was a virus that killed the seals, and the "bullet/nail" marks were actually seagulls? Didn't think so, too busy hugging a tree somewhere...
Do you have a source for this? I'm not doubting you, just interested.
ccfcman
08/11/2004, 2:07 PM
I for one reckon fox-hunting and murder are similiar, its illegal to murder a man, its illegal to kill a dog, surely its illegal to kill a fox?
Do you have a source for this? I'm not doubting you, just interested.
Read it in Ireland on Sunday. Going through the papers to find the best TV guide, honest...
Apparently all the bodies tested so far have died of natural causes, a virus to be specific. Some of the bodies have been sent abroad for further tests. One bullet shell found near the bodies, but no evidence of bullets in any of the seals. The holes that were supposedly bullet holes, or nails through baseball bats are thought to be actually from seagulls having a feast on the dead bodies. Again, the disembowelled seals seem to the result of the Seagulls having their lunch, and is apparently a common effect found on washed up bodies.
So basically, according to the story, the seal protection groups ran with the story with no evidence to back their claim, and got it totally wrong.
I for one reckon fox-hunting and murder are similiar, its illegal to murder a man, its illegal to kill a dog, surely its illegal to kill a fox?
Vets must be shÃtting themselves. Even if the law is passed it won't be illegal to kill a fox, or even hunt them. Just not with dogs.
Jim Smith
08/11/2004, 2:16 PM
Read it in Ireland on Sunday. Going through the papers to find the best TV guide, honest...
Thanks, I doubt I'll ever fall asleep on the beach again :eek:
Don Vito
08/11/2004, 3:12 PM
:mad: I would definitly like it to be banned. Cruelty on behalf of the social elite.
As part of the social elite I dont want to see it banned-its a great day out. Couldnt manage without the hunt ball either.
Got a bit of a fright when I opened this thread at first.......thought you guys were callin for a ban on fox hunting in the likes of Tramco and Bondi Beach!! :D
Got a bit of a fright when I opened this thread at first.......thought you guys were callin for a ban on fox hunting in the likes of Tramco and Bondi Beach!! :D
Well hounds should be banned from all clubs...
No.
Not all laws are the same for animals and humans.
they are also allowed to vote and marry other humans. There are no laws allowing animals do likewise.
Oh Really??? (http://www.marryyourpet.com/) :p
The point of fox hunting is the pleasure of seeing an animal torn apart simply because some its cousins decided to help himself to a chicken or two in the past without paying for it. Perhaps we could do the same to some of the hunters on the pretext that their cousins did likewise in various countries around the world.
Vermin: Then shoot the things on sight. BTW, why were foxes imported back into Britain during the nineteenth century when numbers began to drop drastically?
Pest control: I've just come down the M40 here and lost count of the number of flattened foxes. That argument is a crap one.
All 'country' folk love it: Speaking as someone on the edge of the country, I can testify that all is not hunky dorey with the yokels. Apparently they don't like a pack of hounds suddenly mistaking their Tiddles bushy ginger tail for that of Mr. Fox
Toffs sport: Well firstly I'd define a 'sport' as something where all participants are willing. That rules out foxhunting, fishing, coursing and horse racing although I'd concede that flat racing is more beneficial to the horse than not. Secondly, we've had bull baiting, rat catching and numerous other 'working class' pastimes banned in Britain in the past three centuries. I can't remember the person who said this, but the basic line was that puritans who decided to ban these sports were more interested in eliminating the fun they gave the spectators rather than the cruelty to the animals. The RSPCA, when originally founded in the early to mid 19C was keen to ban WC cruelty to animals while turning a blind eye to toffs' cruelty. It is as Oscar Wilde said, it is 'the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable.'
No, it's not. The point of hunting is the hunt. Would have thought the name of the sport would give a clue.
Then theres nothing stopping people going hunting with some kind of paint gun. You get the thrill of the chase and you dont need to kill anything.
Read it in Ireland on Sunday. Going through the papers to find the best TV guide, honest...
Apparently all the bodies tested so far have died of natural causes, a virus to be specific. Some of the bodies have been sent abroad for further tests. One bullet shell found near the bodies, but no evidence of bullets in any of the seals. The holes that were supposedly bullet holes, or nails through baseball bats are thought to be actually from seagulls having a feast on the dead bodies. Again, the disembowelled seals seem to the result of the Seagulls having their lunch, and is apparently a common effect found on washed up bodies.
So basically, according to the story, the seal protection groups ran with the story with no evidence to back their claim, and got it totally wrong.
Just thought I better point out that they're now adamant they were killed by humans, well they were on the last word last night anyway. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what the investigation turns up....
Anyone see the episode of Ali G where Borat meets the animal rights protestors and starts telling them how funny it is to see a dog dancing on a plate that's being heated? Come on, it WAS funny...
And gets out his lucky bear claw?
GavinZac
09/11/2004, 9:58 AM
they're only animals....
lopez
09/11/2004, 10:36 AM
Bring 'em all back I say. And badger baiting too.
Anyone see the episode of Ali G where Borat meets the animal rights protestors and starts telling them how funny it is to see a dog dancing on a plate that's being heated? Come on, it WAS funny...Didn't he say that it was favourite show in Kazakhstan and the dog looked like Princess Margaret. :D Top class TV.
liamon
09/11/2004, 11:18 AM
they're only animals....
And therein lies the source of the problem.
Modern urban dwellers are so detached from nature that they no longer understand how it works. All that they see is this lovely, rose tinted version, with cuddly rabbits nibbling grass, deer prancing around, foxes looking adorable.
Hence, they have an over-exaggerated view of the "feelings" of animals.
Nature is cruel. Get over it. They're only animals.
IMO, people seem to care more about the ISPCA than the ISPCC.
Aberdonian Stu
09/11/2004, 12:15 PM
I agree with pest control but this isn't a fair fight, simple as that. You wouldn't put a flyweight in with Lennox Lewis would you? And even if they are just animals (and beleive me I love to eat animals) surely some degree of sportsmanship should be introduced. Hell if I know how but these odds only guarantee one winner.
Hell if I know how but these odds only guarantee one winner.
No they don't, hence sod all foxes are killed by hunting with hounds. Most of them escape, albeit after a chase.
At least there has been less hysteria here than in England, where more time and energy has been expended defending the fox than tackling serious problems.
Hmmmm, the Government in this country probably taught Blair and Co how to cover the real issues with headline grabbing tinkering, but that's a debate for another day.
Bottom line in the UK is that the Labour MP's are out to screw the upper classes*, which is kinda ironic considering the way New Labour out tories the tories....
*this is a good thing, however I'd rather they screwed them with taxes not over a hobby.
but they are...only animals...
Like ourselves. Like ourselves they feel pain.
But unlike ourselves most animals kill only for food.
And therein lies the source of the problem.
Modern urban dwellers are so detached from nature that they no longer understand how it works. All that they see is this lovely, rose tinted version, with cuddly rabbits nibbling grass, deer prancing around, foxes looking adorable.
Hence, they have an over-exaggerated view of the "feelings" of animals.
As anyone interested in nature will tell you the urban environment is filled with animal life as well.
BTW if you think that the moden rural Ireland is the actual natural system that would be there without mans interference youre living in a dream world.
Hmm where are all those trees?
Most climate change is due to mans interference with nature. What you sow you will reep.
In the past in Ireland there have been deliberate attempts to eradicate species. Myxymitosis (sp?) with rabbits just resulted in foxs turning to different prey. The irony being that those who suffered worst where farmers, when foxs turned their attention more to prey like farmyard chickens.
This may sound like a stupid question but is there much wildlife in Ireland. I know the traffic is lighter but I just don't see the same ammount of road kill there as in Britain, while I've only seen a rabbit in the wild in West Cork. Round my way I've see deer knocked down, let alone the usual mammals. Badger baiting? I've only seen them dead by the side of the road and at least two workmates have complained about the damage done to the front of their cars after knocking over these animals. As for the absence of trees in Ireland, blame the Tans. It's all there in the rant of Cyclops (aka the Citizen) in Joyce's Ullyses. :D
BTW, who's suppose to eat the foxes? Was it the wolf? Almost extinct in Western Europe apart from a few remote parts of Northern Spain and Northern Scandinavia.
A face
09/11/2004, 9:49 PM
C'mere ... does anyone know if fox burgers are any good ?? or even a seal club burger !!
But unlike ourselves most animals kill only for food.
Ironically, foxes are one of those animals that kills for fun.
liamon
10/11/2004, 8:21 AM
[QUOTE=eoinh]...
BTW if you think that the moden rural Ireland is the actual natural system that would be there without mans interference youre living in a dream world.
...[QUOTE]
I never said it was a natural ecosystem, but it's a lot closer to one than anything you find in the middle of a housing estate in Dublin.
A knackers horse running wild, stray cat and a few pigeons sh*tting everywhere? Lovely.
My point is that people value animals rights as if they were equal to human rights. Hell, some people even claim it's murder. YEah, can't see anyone getting life over that one.
I think this is because the individuals are now divorced from the reality of dealing with animals on a farm setting. We slaughter them every day coz it gives us pleasure to eat them and it's fine. But when we kill them for pleasure, it's wrong. Either way, it's killing to provide us with pleasure. We don't need to do either.
And even then, it's only wrong if we kill them with dogs (completely natural hunting thing!). It's fine if we do it with guns or fishing rods.
Hypocrisy. All the vegetarians on here can complain away, The rest of you, go hang your heads in shame.
As for making it a fair fight, how fair is the fight when you have a fishing rod and the prey weighs only a fraction of your weight? Get real.
One I never see alive is a hedgehog though. Do they really exist alive, or do they just enter the world as flattened dark objects on roads?
Actually, never come across them myself here either. However, Samson the dog tends to escort any animals off the premises fairly quickly though ;)
Ironically, foxes are one of those animals that kills for fun.
Well farmers dogs sometimes have a nasty habit of killing sheep, but you don't see any cross country chases after rover as a result of it.
...Hypocrisy. All the vegetarians on here can complain away, The rest of you, go hang your heads in shame...You're right. I just wish I could give up the bacon sarnies. :(
[QUOTE=Conor74]Deer numbers around thse parts seems to have gone through the roof in recent years. Seeing a deer used to be pretty surprising, now people have to drive carefully at night in case one of them decides to wander onto the road. They're all over the place...and getting cheeky with it too.
So whats this drive carefully at night craic all of a sudden cause of deers, did yer not drive carefully at night before they showed up then.
Well farmers dogs sometimes have a nasty habit of killing sheep, but you don't see any cross country chases after rover as a result of it.No. Farmer Palmer just gets his gun out and shoots the f*cker. Which is what should happen with the foxes.
I've seen Hedgehogs around too. They used to come in and nick the cat food and rattle the plates at night where I used to live, but they too are mostly flattened on the road. For some reason they just like to sleep there. I stopped the car one night and gently kicked one off the road. Of course, didn't thank me for it. :o
liamon
10/11/2004, 8:33 AM
Actually, never come across them myself here either. However, Samson the dog tends to escort any animals off the premises fairly quickly though ;)
That's cruel. :mad:
Ban Samson now!
Better again, charge him with attempted assault and lock him up for 5 years.
[QUOTE=Conor74]Nah, at nighttime you could cut loose because you could see the lights of an approaching car and be well warned of trouble.
And there's me wondering how come there's so much carnage on the roads. :rolleyes:
Found this on another mb.... :D
Herb-Grilled Fox Recipe (serves four)
Ingredients:
Chunks of skinless fox meat (6 to 8 ounces each), trimmed and rinsed
"Fleur de Sel" salt and freshly ground black pepper
Crushed red chili flakes
3 cloves garlic, minced
2 tablespoons each chopped fresh rosemary and flat-leaf parsley
1/4 cup fresh lemon juice, plus 4 lemon wedges for serving
1/4 cup extra-virgin olive oil; more for drizzling
Directions:
Lightly wet a chunk of fox with cold water and place it between two sheets of plastic wrap. Pound it into a broad, flat sheet about 1/4-inch thick, using a meat hammer, the side of a heavy cleaver, or a skillet. Pound the other chunks the same way and arrange them on a baking sheet.
Generously season each chunk on both sides with salt and pepper and a pinch or two of chili flakes. Sprinkle both sides with the garlic and rosemary. Drizzle both sides with the lemon juice and olive oil and pat into the meat with your fingertips. Refrigerate the chunks for 20 minutes while you prepare the grill.
Heat a salamander to high or prepare a hot charcoal fire. Brush and oil the grill grate.
Arrange the fox chunks on the grill grate and grill until cooked and firm to the touch, 1 to 2 minutes per side. (Use a long, wide spatula to move and turn the chunks.) Transfer the chunks to a platter. Drizzle with olive oil, sprinkle parsley over and serve immediately with lemon wedges for squeezing.
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