Football Pyramid

[Green]

Question lads,

Why do the Junior and Intermediate League across the country not feed in to the football pyramid and ultimately promotion to the sse Airtricity League?

Is it too costly for the club's or are the leagues's pretty happy the way thing's are?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Both?

[Charlie Darwin]

Both?
That's the simple answer. The fact is the leagues have never been under the same structure and it seems to suit most people to keep it that way.

[NeverFeltBetter]

What is the benefit to those junior clubs thinking of trying to move up to the national level? The registration fee, doing up the ground, all the increased costs of being at that higher level in terms of club upkeep, wages, etc. Most of the clubs have a very small catchment area, so will face a battle to draw in the crowds to sustain such an endeavour and that's if they aren't competing with an established LOI club (how'd think Pike Rovers get on in Limerick for example? What kind of support could they get across the city?). The results don't go their way as they frequently don't for such clubs, the crowds will melt away.

So, best case scenario, they struggle around the First Division for as long as they can, SD Galway style. Worst, they go out of business completely. Why would they risk that when they can stay where they are, comfortable and not threatened weekly with extinction? Right now, the LOI is simply not attractive to new clubs.

[Charlie Darwin]

Well, even stripping away the costs, I don't think it's a particularly attractive position for junior clubs to be in. The big LSL, MSL etc. clubs are big fish in a small pond right now. It's no secret that clubs like Malahide United have budgets as big as some League of Ireland clubs. They're comfortable where they are and they don't want their position jeopardised. If they really wanted to enter the league, they'd push for it. As it stands, the only clubs who actively seek LOI membership are from areas where there isn't a great junior league structure.

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Over to you Legendz.....

[Macy]

It's no secret that clubs like Malahide United have budgets as big as some League of Ireland clubs. They're comfortable where they are and they don't want their position jeopardised.
And they don't have the same regulation/ attention they may get in the LoI.

As with tackling the issues with underage football, the FAI structure is goosed, and those currently in control of the FAI ain't going to be the Turkeys that vote for Christmas by taking it on as that's their power base.

[Stuttgart88]

That's exactly it Macy. Sad but true. I'd love if someone could instigate an Oireachtas inquiry into our football governance. They were concerned enough with the GAA deal with Sky for the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications (whose remit includes sport, and not just in the sense that sport is a TV product) to immediately call the GAA in to justify its action.

The equivalent in the UK, the DCMS, held a year long inquiry into English football governance. It was very thorough and very critical, though Scudamore has resisted some of its recommendations.

It would be in the public interest on several fronts, not least because the state provides funding via the ISC. Instead all I ever hear from a politician is guff from Enda Kenny every few years about a 32 county football team and the FA playing Ireland every year for charity.

[NeverFeltBetter]

A political avenue is a dead end. The GAA has more voters attached to it.

[Sheridan]

The juniorballers, like the schoolboy regime, are too attached to their personal fiefdoms to have any interest in relinquishing their influence. If you thought LOI was run by shameless chancers, you should take a look at the scum of the earth who inhabit the lower echelons.

[legendz]

Over to you Legendz.....
lol, yeah sure big fish and small ponds etc. as those who are part of the LoI family keep saying.
A triangle will be more likely than a pyramid! No A championship club suffered financial difficulties. Should have been merged with the first division below an expanded premier and all that less stringent fudgy criteria etc... :)

[luiz]

I will take the chance and ask you lads who knew what the League of Ireland was before 2008 about Home Farm.

They have a stadium decent enough to play in the First Division. They've been around for decades so they probably used to have a fan base by then. What led them to withdraw from the league, and wouldn't they be the most suitable name among the LSL teams to come back?

[Mr A]

They split from the Home Farm Everton entity that would later become Dublin City as the costs of being semi pro were not adding up for them.

They probably could return to the LOI as an amateur set up, but I'm not sure they'd see any value in it.

[NeverFeltBetter]

That's just it. What is the incentive for these clubs? It's not financial so....prestige? Of being in the national league? Not very persuasive.

[peadar1987]

That's probably the greatest part of the problem. It's a big financial risk to enter the LOI, lots of travel expenses, the entry fee, possible ground improvements etc. Most amateur clubs are happy winning trophies and not spending much. Small ponds and all that.

If there ever is an integrated pyramid (and I'm not sure there will be), it will need to be significantly different to what we have now. Probably regionalised below the top flight to reduce travel expenses, reduced ground requirements and so on.

[Mr A]

Travel expenses are a much over hyped element of costs for clubs. We probably travel more than the vast majority of clubs in the league, are not running a large budget and they're still not a massive chunk of our outgoings.

[Macy]

Ground improvements is also over hyped - standards for the 1st are pretty bloody low (whatever about the standards they are supposed to be).

[NeverFeltBetter]

How many people do the best Junior clubs get at games on average? Some of the attendances in the First are very shocking, so if they had a workable stadium and could incur the travel expenses, a lot would then come down to how many fans they could get to games on a regular basis.

[Dodge]

I will take the chance and ask you lads who knew what the League of Ireland was before 2008 about Home Farm.

They have a stadium decent enough to play in the First Division. They've been around for decades so they probably used to have a fan base by then. What led them to withdraw from the league, and wouldn't they be the most suitable name among the LSL teams to come back?
They never really had a fanbase to be fair. Over the years the LOI team split from the LSL/schoolboy set up and the gap just kept getting wider and wider. By the mid 90s they were almost completely seperate clubs.

They changed to Home Farm Everton in 1995/96, and onto Home Farm Fingal in 1999/2000. After 2000/01 the committee had enough and jacked it in. Ronan Seery spotted the opportunity and created Dublin City as a completely separate club but playing out of Whitehall. Some of the players were the same but no one incolved in Home Farm was involved with Dublin City.

Home Farm had always kept their LSL set up so there were no changes there. As Dublin City and Sporting Fingal have shown, there's no room for any more Dublin teams so I can't see them being bothered by the LOI again

[Sheridan]

Home Farm were virulently opposed to any involvement in the league post the Home Farm Fingal split (the use of the name was just a means of legitimising HFF's presence in the league). They even turned down funding from the FAI for a total modernisation of Whitehall and its guaranteed use as Ireland's youth international venue, because it was tied into formalising a link with Dublin City. Their business model is all about hoovering up talented teenagers from the Dublin nursery clubs and trying to sell them abroad.

Re: Junior attendances. No non-senior club in Ireland attracts regular three-figure crowds.

[gufcfan]

Travel expenses are a much over hyped element of costs for clubs. We probably travel more than the vast majority of clubs in the league, are not running a large budget and they're still not a massive chunk of our outgoings.

This is it. Even clubs running on a shoestring will only spend a small percentage on travel costs. It's a nonsense argument in my opinion. Every Euro a club brings in over the course of a year is hard graft, but this blinkered focus by some on travel costs being the big evil defies logic.


Ground improvements is also over hyped - standards for the 1st are pretty bloody low (whatever about the standards they are supposed to be).

Standards in the FD are low, yes, and the FAI have shown they are perfectly happy to admit teams with sub-standard facilities.

[legendz]

That's just it. What is the incentive for these clubs? It's not financial so....prestige? Of being in the national league? Not very persuasive.

I suppose prestige is a part to play in it. Non-league clubs aren't exactly dominating the league and FAI cups. Lol is the highest level. If a region is looking to develop the game, entering a team in the national league might seem a natural step.
Interesting comments on travel costs.

[Mr A]

Prestige does indeed matter. I spoke to the chairman of Mervue after they left the league and he said while they'd be paying for it for years it was still worth joining the league for the profile of the club.

[Titan]

The only way we will have a pyramid in this country is if we physically bring one over from Egypt!
Or if UEFA insist on it. Would be good but no appetite from junior clubs. They're too good for us.

[nigel-harps1954]

The FAI need to grab football by the balls in this country and start it all from scratch again. Leave the various junior and intermediate leagues to run their own leagues if they want, but provide them with no funding. Instead, extend an offer to every single club in the country to join into the new pyramid system.
With promotion and relegation from each division, each club must meet certain criteria before gaining entry to the next division. Affiliation fees would reduce with each drop in division.

1. Premier Division (12 teams)
2. First Division (12 teams)
3. Second Division North (10 teams)
3. Second Division South (10 teams)
4. Ulster Senior League (10 teams)
4. Leinster Senior League (10 teams)
4. Connaught Senior League (10 teams)
4. Munster Senior League (10 teams)
5. Regional Lower Leagues (Based on current junior system, incorporating current intermediate clubs who don't make their respective divisions)

As we all know, however, the FAI won't ever do this, or anything similar to help growth of football in Ireland.

[Nesta99]

Simple enough! To win a various division gains $! Revolution -divide up CEO's wage among his intermediete powerbase, see how quick they would stick if there was monies available beyond FAI, and into the LoI.

[legendz]

8 first teams took part in the A championship over it's 4 year existence. The current first division has less than 8 first teams. An opportunity seems lost there.

[nigel-harps1954]

8 first teams took part in the A championship over it's 4 year existence. The current first division has less than 8 first teams. An opportunity seems lost there.

Scrapping the A Championship is the worst decision made in Irish football in the past 20 years.

[gufcfan]

Not a peep out of Ruud Dokter in ages.

[Macy]

As we all know, however, the FAI won't ever do this, or anything similar to help growth of football in Ireland.
It wouldn't have the support of the "footballing public". I stumbled upon a thread on boards.ie that was sparked by Brendan Rodgers saying that 16 is too old for players from Ireland to go over to England. It is getting plenty of support, with plenty more saying we should export children to Spain or Holland instead. Those saying we have to put the structures in place here are very much in the minority and getting argued against.

[DannyInvincible]

... Brendan Rodgers saying that 16 is too old for players from Ireland to go over to England. It is getting plenty of support, with plenty more saying we should export children to Spain or Holland instead.

An Irish solution to an Irish problem...

[Stuttgart88]

Not a peep out of Ruud Dokter in ages.
Why should there be? He rightly identified some obstacles at the outset, but it's the FAI's job to shape the whole structure of the game. As pointed out above, no major change is likely.

[Stuttgart88]

Invite ten EPL B teams into the LOI. English football doesn't want them, but our public seemingly does! We get more money, Greg Dyke gets his wish. Best placed Irish team wins the league.

[citybone]

The FAI need to grab football by the balls in this country and start it all from scratch again. Leave the various junior and intermediate leagues to run their own leagues if they want, but provide them with no funding. Instead, extend an offer to every single club in the country to join into the new pyramid system.
With promotion and relegation from each division, each club must meet certain criteria before gaining entry to the next division. Affiliation fees would reduce with each drop in division.

1. Premier Division (12 teams)
2. First Division (12 teams)
3. Second Division North (10 teams)
3. Second Division South (10 teams)
4. Ulster Senior League (10 teams)
4. Leinster Senior League (10 teams)
4. Connaught Senior League (10 teams)
4. Munster Senior League (10 teams)
5. Regional Lower Leagues (Based on current junior system, incorporating current intermediate clubs who don't make their respective divisions)

As we all know, however, the FAI won't ever do this, or anything similar to help growth of football in Ireland.

I largely agree but go straight from Prem Division to First Division North and south and down to provincial leagues so.

1. Premier Division (12 team)
2. First Division North (12 team)
2. First Division South (12 team )
3. Leinster Senior League (10 team)
3. Munster Senior League (10 team)
3. Ulster Senior League (10 team)
3. Connacht Senior League (10 team)
4. Leinster Senior League North (10 team)
4. Leinster Senior League South (10 team)
etc.

Another Problem would be that the Intermediate and junior clubs are currently on the Winter football unlike Senior Football could be changed in 2 or 3 years but im guessing most of these clubs would fight this too.

[Macy]

Another Problem would be that the Intermediate and junior clubs are currently on the Winter football unlike Senior Football could be changed in 2 or 3 years but im guessing most of these clubs would fight this too.
If that was the sticking point, even the most ardent supporters of summer football would surely suck up a switch back? Even the PFAI insisted on a LoI break to allow players a holiday, it's unrealistic to expect lower level clubs and players to give up their summers imo.

[nigel-harps1954]

Ulster senior league is a summer league and the proposed Connacht senior league was supposed to be summer far as I know.

[wonder88]

How is the Ulster Senior league doing Nigel ? Have any clubs dropped out, is standard higher than local football that non-LoI clubs play, is it expensive to take part (i.e. are players/managers paid)?

[legendz]

The FAI need to grab football by the balls in this country and start it all from scratch again. Leave the various junior and intermediate leagues to run their own leagues if they want, but provide them with no funding. Instead, extend an offer to every single club in the country to join into the new pyramid system.
With promotion and relegation from each division, each club must meet certain criteria before gaining entry to the next division. Affiliation fees would reduce with each drop in division.
As we all know, however, the FAI won't ever do this, or anything similar to help growth of football in Ireland.
I largely agree but go straight from Prem Division to First Division North and south and down to provincial leagues so.
Another Problem would be that the Intermediate and junior clubs are currently on the Winter football unlike Senior Football could be changed in 2 or 3 years but im guessing most of these clubs would fight this too.If the FAI were to make some change, I'd suggest invite all clubs who can meet the premier criteria into an expanded Premier. Have a regionalised tier below it with criteria similar to the defunct A Championship, featuring those unable to obtain a premier licence, B teams and other clubs entering at that level. Let the rest be a natural growth. With a level where clubs can join, it's down to clubs/regions themselves from there really to make the efforts. With the big fish in small ponds that the FAI do not want to cause stormy waters in, it seems the only option.

[nigel-harps1954]

How is the Ulster Senior league doing Nigel ? Have any clubs dropped out, is standard higher than local football that non-LoI clubs play, is it expensive to take part (i.e. are players/managers paid)?


Few clubs have dropped out, it's not in the greatest of shape, but there's still some very strong clubs in it. much higher standard than Donegal League though.
Also, it's no secret around here, the likes of Letterkenny Rovers are paying out bigger wages than Harps are.

[sadloserkid]

Few clubs have dropped out, it's not in the greatest of shape, but there's still some very strong clubs in it. much higher standard than Donegal League though.
Also, it's no secret around here, the likes of Letterkenny Rovers are paying out bigger wages than Harps are.

How many (if any) non-Donegal clubs are in it? Or does it represent a province in the same way that the Munster Senior League does?

[donnrua]

How many (if any) non-Donegal clubs are in it? Or does it represent a province in the same way that the Munster Senior League does?
The MSL is in bad need of a name change - the not-so-senior Cork junior player merry-go-round would be my suggestion!

[Mr A]

Derry are the only non Donegal club and they play their games in Buncrana!

[nigel-harps1954]

How many (if any) non-Donegal clubs are in it? Or does it represent a province in the same way that the Munster Senior League does?

There was talk of Sligo Rovers being invited to include a reserve team in it this season.

With Cavan/Monaghan being the only others who could be included, aside from the distance between games, football there is pretty weak. There's only seven teams in the Cavan/Monaghan League, most of which play their FAI Junior Cup games in the Donegal/Inishowen section, and truthfully, none of them ever get very far. You could possibly state a case for something like a Cavan Town and Monaghan united team to join the Ulster Senior League, but it wouldn't go down well here really.

[gufcfan]

Derry City Reserves are the only non-Donegal team.

http://i.imgur.com/GiWiPnp.png

[legendz]

How are Fanad Utd getting on these days? They made a late run to be part of the final edition of the abandoned tier.

[nigel-harps1954]

How are Fanad Utd getting on these days? They made a late run to be part of the final edition of the abandoned tier.

Not so good these days really. They're concentrating much more on youth now, but they're not half as successful as they were in previous years. Don't think they'd add anything to League of Ireland football the more I think about it. I'd have considered it in the past, but really, they're just too far away from anywhere to have any sort of impact.

[Sam_Heggy]

The USL may not be flourishing but they didn't win the Inter-pro's last season at a canter.

Cavan/Monaghan league was asked if they wanted to enter sides but they turned it down. Otherwise it'd be tough to add in any other areas as they would be IFA clubs.

[Green]

So the concensus here then seems to be that people are happy the way things are....

[Charlie Darwin]

So the concensus here then seems to be that people are happy the way things are....
I think the consensus is that the people who matter are happy the way things are.

[Green]

I think the consensus is that the people who matter are happy the way things are.

That is what I meant. Should have phrased it better.