ESPN's 30 for 30: Ceasefire Massacre

[DannyInvincible]

ESPN's 30 for 30 documentary on the Loughinsland massacre was broadcast last night. Has anyone seen it yet or does anyone know where it might be viewable/available online?

[geysir]

Pirate Bay is a good source for downloading the 30 for 30 ESPN series, for sure that episode will be available there soon.

[DannyInvincible]

Found it on PB, although it's been uploaded to Dailymotion now as well:


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1se2tc_sequence-01_news#from=embediframe

Not had a chance to watch it yet.

[Crosby87]

Yeah these soccer episodes are only a half hour. As I said in the TV section, the first one was Hillsborough the second one was Maradona at the Mex WC, both I thought were very good.

[DannyInvincible]

The Hillsborough one was full-length, but I do agree it was excellent and well worth a watch.

Edit: For anyone interested, you can watch the Hillsborough one here: http://cloudyvideos.com/ujxzttbur265

[DannyInvincible]

Got a chance to watch this last night. In contrast to the lengthier Hillsborough episode, which I found compelling and profoundly moving, I thought this one was quite brief and somewhat superficial in the sense that it never really scratched beneath the surface. The time constraint never really gave it the chance. As a result, it was difficult to feel emotionally involved despite the fact I was watching nostalgic Irish footballing scenes juxtaposed with pictures of Irish tragedy. Not to forget, of course, those early shots of the idyllic Irish countryside flush with rainbow, mist and missing only thatched cottages with leprechauns by the door...

It's littered with niggling minor inaccuracies, exaggerated insinuations (as if 1994 was our first World Cup qualification, beating Italy was the greatest ever moment in Irish sport and the massacre was a primary factor in our inability to win another game at the tournament) and over-simplifications here and there, somewhat typical of a lot of US commentary on the Troubles and obviously to aid the flow of Alex Gibney's narrative. The Good Friday Agreement was still years away when the massacre occurred, but Gibney would nearly have you think that the north was on the brink of peace in 1993/1994 until Loughinsland put a spanner in the works. It also overplays the significance of US involvement in the peace process, with Irish-American businessman Bill Flynn explicitly suggesting that progress towards peace would never have occurred had the talks not been rubber-stamped by and given the "key blessing" of the US government. Indeed, the very second shot in the episode's introductory sequence shows Bill Clinton speaking from the White House, as if of some pivotal significance to the subject matter.

From this US-centric perspective, the ESPN interviewer of Flynn, whose father happened to have emigrated to the US from Loughinsland, even suggested that there is "one line of thought" out there, somewhere undefined, that the massacre had been carried out by the UVF in collusion with British state forces as a way of getting back at or sending a warning to Flynn, the "interfering American outsider", for his "influential" role in trying to broker peace. Indeed, it has long been somewhere between commonly suspected and well-known there was collusion at play, but I hadn't really been familiar with Flynn at all until watching the documentary; was he really such a major player in the peace process? To possibly confirm my doubts over his significance, however, Flynn bluntly stated that he'd never heard wind of this aforementioned theory before when asked for his thoughts on it and so it was left at that. It's inclusion just seemed to come out of left field and struck me as contrived.

As the 1993 qualifier in Belfast is covered, Alan McLoughlin features in a funny interview, from inside Windsor Park after his goal helped us qualify, dedicating the goal to all the supporters in the pubs and clubs "back in Ireland". Where he thought he was, I'm not sure; maybe still on cloud nine? :p

Interestingly, Niall Quinn also mentions how Alan McDonald, who was NI's captain that night and from the Protestant half of Belfast, entered the Ireland dressing room after the game and gave a "fantastic speech" about how the team should go on and proudly represent the whole island in the US that coming summer. McDonald must never have realised he could have chosen to play for us even back in those days!

[SkStu]

Don't get me started on McDonald.

(Thanks for the review, not as excited about watching it now though :( )

[DannyInvincible]

Ah, hope I didn't ruin it for you. It's decent, albeit limited. It doesn't really shed any new light on the massacre itself or anything, but, at the very least, it's interesting to see how Irish events are being portrayed to an American/international audience.

Bah, I'm just realising I've committed the same typo of misspelling Loughinisland three times in this thread. :confused:

What did McDonald do, if I may ask? Is this the story about him and Kevin Gallen at QPR?

[geysir]

Ah, hope I didn't ruin it for you. It's decent, albeit limited. It doesn't really shed any new light on the massacre itself or anything, but, at the very least, it's interesting to see how Irish events are being portrayed to an American/international audience.

Bah, I'm just realising I've committed the same typo of misspelling Loughinisland three times in this thread. :confused:

What did McDonald do, if I may ask? Is this the story about him and Kevin Gallen at QPR?

First you ruin it, then you kill it stone dead with faint praise.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

It really amazes me how ingrained and aggressive American bigotry is towards Irish people and how nobody really bats an eyelid. I mean has there ever been a positive or normal portrayal of Ireland or Irish people on American TV?

These people can't genuinely think Ireland is some third world country with cottages made of mud, where people do nothing but drink and fight, leprechauns are running around and people only have ginger hair? Right?

I wonder if any other nation would accept such dramatic stereotypes of their country being so ingrained; like Italians all being in the mafia and eating spaghetti, Spanish people all playing flamenco guitars and wearing sombreros or Scottish people all wearing kilts and playing bagpipes.

[geysir]

It really amazes me how ingrained and aggressive American bigotry is towards Irish people and how nobody really bats an eyelid.
There'a a huge difference between stereotyping and expressing aggressive bigotry.


I mean has there ever been a positive or normal portrayal of Ireland or Irish people on American TV?
Robbie Keane

[DannyInvincible]

I mean has there ever been a positive or normal portrayal of Ireland or Irish people on American TV?

Well, there was Captain Planet saving Belfast...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQJrovKgrTw

Actually, on second thoughts, the accents in that aren't all that convincing; the Belfast accent is much more ridiculous!


These people can't genuinely think Ireland is some third world country with cottages made of mud, where people do nothing but drink and fight, leprechauns are running around and people only have ginger hair? Right?

My family were in a restaurant in New York a few years ago and told the serving waiter that they'd flown over from Ireland. He was genuinely stunned that Ireland had an airport, never mind a few, and wasn't actually one big, hilly farm. I'd be pretty hopeful such ignorance isn't widespread, however. I would imagine all countries have proportionately-similar levels of people guilty of ignorance, if you know what I mean. Ignorance isn't a uniquely American trait. It's a common human trait. It's just that American ignorance often receives greater exposure as American culture and its media are so dominant in Western society. And why would they be expected to possess profound knowledge of Ireland anyway? The place will rarely register in the sphere of attention of your average American, just the same as how there are plenty of countries and cultures around the globe of which we'd have little knowledge and understanding.


I wonder if any other nation would accept such dramatic stereotypes of their country being so ingrained; like Italians all being in the mafia and eating spaghetti, Spanish people all playing flamenco guitars and wearing sombreros or Scottish people all wearing kilts and playing bagpipes.

The above stereotypes, along with silly Irish stereotypes, still commonly feature in modern Western popular culture though, whether we or these nations like it or not. The ESPN commentary of our game versus Italy in 1994 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C412zEI4azg) was ridiculous bordering on insulting, with constant reference being made to the "luck of the Irish" in patronising fashion. After "Roy" Houghton of "Ashton Villa" scored his "chipper", one of the commentators, in analysing the goal, even described us as "England, once again, going with the long ball"; see from 08:45 in the video linked. Similarly, I recall an American commentator telling us "Irish eyes are smiling" when Robbie Keane scored his first goal for LA Galaxy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Dv-MI38ZU).

Do we tolerate Irish stereotypes any more than other nations tolerate crass or insulting stereotypes supposedly relating to their identities though? What do you suggest be done other than dismissing such ridiculousness with laughter?

[BonnieShels]

I was in North Carolina last week and I may as well have come from Outer Space to be honest and this was in a University town (Chapel Hill where Duke is).

I've had one inquiry here in Ottawa from a Canadian about "how bad the Troubles" still are in Ireland.

The thing is, for us and other smaller nations, we are a blip in the ocean; albeit a fairly influential blip, but a blip nonetheless. Most contact with Irish people may elicit these bizarre (to us) queries but you have to consider that only for these people are talking to an Irish person then and there they would not have probably thought about the country at all.

Given how crappy Danny thinks it is I may be able to stomach it so.

[bennocelt]

We do play up the Oirishness as well sometimes to be fair

[BonnieShels]

We do play up the Oirishness as well sometimes to be fair

Completely; I don't disagree with that. In fact since I moved here I've used it to my advantage.

[DannyInvincible]

The thing is, for us and other smaller nations, we are a blip in the ocean; albeit a fairly influential blip, but a blip nonetheless. Most contact with Irish people may elicit these bizarre (to us) queries but you have to consider that only for these people are talking to an Irish person then and there they would not have probably thought about the country at all.

Irishness is something we know and are every day of our lives, but, as you suggest, for most people outside of or unrelated to Ireland, it'll be a mere novelty; something they'll encounter only rarely and usually by chance rather than by design. There's plenty of ignorance of Ireland even here in England. I've encountered people who thought I could get a bus home (sans ferry) to Ireland or who thought Glasgow was the Irish capital. I'm often mistaken for Scottish. In fact, I was in a pub one time and was asked what part of Scotland I was from by this guy when he heard me speak. Before I got a chance to correct him, his buddy butted in to admonish him; "What?! That's not a Scottish accent, mate! He's Scouse." :(


I've had one inquiry here in Ottawa from a Canadian about "how bad the Troubles" still are in Ireland.

Some seem to have this impression that the whole country was in war-torn turmoil, or that the south was at war with the north. In fact, the synopsis for the Ceasefire Massacre trailer on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r38Vu7DDk64) inexplicably reads as follows:


In 1994, violence is at an all-time high between Ireland and Northern Ireland while Ireland looks to qualify for the World Cup.


Given how crappy Danny thinks it is I may be able to stomach it so.

I did give it faint praise, to be fair. :p

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

While we are on the topic of Americans stubbornly insisting that we all have red hair even though Irish people with red hair make up a tiny minority of our country, Scotland has the highest amount of red haired people per capita, red hair originated in Scandinavia and there are the same amount of people (give or take) with red hair and fair hair for that matter in any English speaking country - let's see how many red haired footballers we can come up with from non-English speaking countries.

Fernando Aristeguieta - Nantes (Venezuelan)
John Arne Riise - Fulham (Norwegian)
Jeremy Mathieu - Valencia (French)
Davide Biondini - Sassuolo (Italian)
Alessandro Gazzi - Torino (Italian)
Sergio - (Retired) (Spanish)
Matthias Sammer - (Retired) (German)

That's what I got off the top of my head. I know there is more.

[bennocelt]

While we are on the topic of Americans stubbornly insisting that we all have red hair even though Irish people with red hair make up a tiny minority of our country, Scotland has the highest amount of red haired people per capita, red hair originated in Scandinavia and there are the same amount of people (give or take) with red hair and fair hair for that matter in any English speaking country - let's see how many red haired footballers we can come up with from non-English speaking countries.

I am not so sure about that, I read somewhere we did have the most red heads per population that anywhere else, either way we are fairly pasty, I always get noticed for my really white skin when abroad

[BonnieShels]

Maybe you wouldn't be so pasty if you laid off the smack. :P

I tried watching it but couldn't get over the first 5 minutes.
Gonna try again.

[DannyInvincible]

I see Off the Ball had spoken to the documentary's producer, Trevor Birney, during the week: http://www.newstalk.ie/off-the-ball-remember-the-loughinisland-massacre

Podcast available here: http://www.newstalk.ie/player/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/Off_The_Ball_Highlights/51928/2/Loughinisland_30_for_30

The interview with Birney, who is Irish himself, is actually more nuanced and insightful than the documentary itself.

[BonnieShels]

I just watched it. Unwatchable tripe. I'm sure it's okay for those less versed but it was cringeworthy. Avoid.

[Predator]

As the 1993 qualifier in Belfast is covered, Alan McLoughlin features in a funny interview, from inside Windsor Park after his goal helped us qualify, dedicating the goal to all the supporters in the pubs and clubs "back in Ireland". Where he thought he was, I'm not sure; maybe still on cloud nine? :pI had to listen to that clip twice, I wasn't sure I was hearing correctly!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Look at IrishCentral.com if you want a skewed N.American view of the 'Auld Sod'. Actually, don't.
And they should know better!

[bennocelt]

Look at IrishCentral.com if you want a skewed N.American view of the 'Auld Sod'. Actually, don't.
And they should know better!

Thats an awful site

[Crosby87]

Yeah that site doesn't speak for us. They do these top ten lists to get a rise out of you and they are never accurate. They claim you take naps in a bog after you get lost when you leave a pub. I don't even know what a bog is.

Anyway yeah the Nancy Kerrigan Tonya Harding 30/30 is better than that one. To think you could get that close to a pro athlete during the US Championships that you could walk into the arena with a crobar, hit the #1 ranked skater as she comes off the ice in the knee, then run away and not get caught for awhile...that would NEVER happen now.

[Metrostars]

The Two Escobars one from a few years ago is also very good. Trailer:

PHzixowbbYU

[Junior]

While we are on the topic of Americans stubbornly insisting that we all have red hair even though Irish people with red hair make up a tiny minority of our country, Scotland has the highest amount of red haired people per capita, red hair originated in Scandinavia and there are the same amount of people (give or take) with red hair and fair hair for that matter in any English speaking country - let's see how many red haired footballers we can come up with from non-English speaking countries.

Fernando Aristeguieta - Nantes (Venezuelan)
John Arne Riise - Fulham (Norwegian)
Jeremy Mathieu - Valencia (French)
Davide Biondini - Sassuolo (Italian)
Alessandro Gazzi - Torino (Italian)
Sergio - (Retired) (Spanish)
Matthias Sammer - (Retired) (German)

That's what I got off the top of my head. I know there is more.

Freddie

http://www.youaremygooners.com/uploads/1/2/9/2/12927176/6032988_orig.jpg

Or perhaps you're talking collars and cuffs?

[DannyInvincible]

If someone asked me to name a red-haired footballer, the first that would spring to mind would be an American; Alexi Lalas. Perhaps surprisingly, he is of Greek extraction.

Does Valderrama count?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTb8aZ1CcAAtCUQ.jpg

[BonnieShels]

The Two Escobars one from a few years ago is also very good. Trailer:

PHzixowbbYU

That is a wonderful film.

Loved every minute.

[Crosby87]

The Petrovic one about Yugoslavia and his relationship with Divac is the tops.

[BonnieShels]

I think that's one of the original few I've yet to see. But I can imagine.

[Crosby87]

You would love it.

[Crosby87]

I mean has there ever been a positive or normal portrayal of Ireland or Irish people on American TV?


One of the great portrayals of an Irishman in American cinema, I think you would agree, Is Seamus McFly. And It's (Back To The Future III) on TV all the time. There is one caveat though, one that Francis Ford Coppola often includes in his lectures about the effect the Irish have had on many classic films, even to an Italian American like himself. You see, Seamus McFly is played by Michael J Fox, who is lending his skills to a dual role. Since his other character, Marty McFly, has the same last name as Seamus, it can be gathered that Seamus is his Great Grandfather on his Paternal side. However, Lea Thompson plays Seamus wife, (Marty McFly's great great Grandmother). She also plays Marty's mother in the two prequels to BTTF III. This makes no sense. Lea Thompson (as Marty's mother) would not look exactly like Marty's great great grandmother on his paternal side, because her blood lines would come from his maternal side. His mother would not have been (likely) related to Seamus McFly or his wife. Ms Thompson is known to be easy to work with, and the director wanted her to have a roll, but it is essentially an error. But, that aside, I'm sure you would agree that Seamus, who was based on an Irish rebel forced to flee Ireland around 1885, was and is a positive portrayal of an Irish person within an American medium. In fact, many of my Irish American friends have Seamus tattoos and they take great pride in showing them off to Irish people they meet in holding cells after being jailed for fighting other bar patrons.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130223052847/bttf/images/thumb/4/49/SeamusMcFly.jpg/250px-SeamusMcFly.jpg (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130223052847/bttf/images/4/49/SeamusMcFly.jpg)

[BonnieShels]

First rate Crosby

[geysir]

About time he wrote something decent.

[gspain01]

I thought the documentary was OK. Some simple errors as has been pointed out but still interesting.

Loughinisland occurred a few weeks before the first IRA ceasefire. So the claim that Northern Ireland was close to peace at the time of the massacre is valid imo. The Bill Flynn claim is interesting albeit unlikely and contrived a little maybe to include another U.S. angle. The main theory was that it was retaliation for the INLA killing of 3 people 2 days earlier in Belfast.

It was a horrific attack on innocent people watching a football match on tv. However it was one of many many atrocities carried out on innocent people in Northern Ireland. I think it would be a bit much to claim it affected the team's performance in subsequent games.

We played in Belfast in November 1993 & November 1994 (pre and post ceasefire). The attitude of fans down here was totally different. Only a handful of fans went to the 1993 game (less than 50 I reckon). We had easily 1,000+ in 1994. I went across the border many times to watch football in the 80's and 90's incl the ICF a few months before the 93 game. I never had an issue but November 93 was far more tense than any other occasion I can recall (I couldn't comment on the early 70's) due to Greysteel and the Shankill Road massacre. I took precautions then that I never did on other occasions such as very limited driving after dark and staying near Belfast whereas I came back after the 88 & 94 games. There were fears that the nutjobs on either side could target football fans. I really struggled to offload tickets at face value (£10) when fans pulled out a few days beforehand. Now I do believe some of the events in the stadium were overblown but that is a different story. Even Ray's claim re being told not to sit near the windows of the bus followed by a shot of the team bus with plenty of window seats occupied.

I found out the following morning from the taxi driver taking me to the airport. We had a massive party in New York after the Italy game and I don't think anyone knew.

Italy may well be our best ever win but we had already beaten Germany away and Holland away that year and were ranked 6th in the world. It was not that big a shock. It wasn't expected but we had knocked out the European Champions in qualifying. Losing to Holland in the second round was also a mild surprise. I think it is fair to say almost everyone expected us to lose to Italy in 1990 but 94 was a different story. T would class the win over England in 1988 to be the greatest moment in Irish Sporting history closely followed by Romania in Genoa.

[BonnieShels]

I thought the documentary was OK. Some simple errors as has been pointed out but still interesting.

Loughinisland occurred a few weeks before the first IRA ceasefire. So the claim that Northern Ireland was close to peace at the time of the massacre is valid imo. The Bill Flynn claim is interesting albeit unlikely and contrived a little maybe to include another U.S. angle. The main theory was that it was retaliation for the INLA killing of 3 people 2 days earlier in Belfast.

It was a horrific attack on innocent people watching a football match on tv. However it was one of many many atrocities carried out on innocent people in Northern Ireland. I think it would be a bit much to claim it affected the team's performance in subsequent games.

We played in Belfast in November 1993 & November 1994 (pre and post ceasefire). The attitude of fans down here was totally different. Only a handful of fans went to the 1993 game (less than 50 I reckon). We had easily 1,000+ in 1994. I went across the border many times to watch football in the 80's and 90's incl the ICF a few months before the 93 game. I never had an issue but November 93 was far more tense than any other occasion I can recall (I couldn't comment on the early 70's) due to Greysteel and the Shankill Road massacre. I took precautions then that I never did on other occasions such as very limited driving after dark and staying near Belfast whereas I came back after the 88 & 94 games. There were fears that the nutjobs on either side could target football fans. I really struggled to offload tickets at face value (£10) when fans pulled out a few days beforehand. Now I do believe some of the events in the stadium were overblown but that is a different story. Even Ray's claim re being told not to sit near the windows of the bus followed by a shot of the team bus with plenty of window seats occupied.

I found out the following morning from the taxi driver taking me to the airport. We had a massive party in New York after the Italy game and I don't think anyone knew.

Italy may well be our best ever win but we had already beaten Germany away and Holland away that year and were ranked 6th in the world. It was not that big a shock. It wasn't expected but we had knocked out the European Champions in qualifying. Losing to Holland in the second round was also a mild surprise. I think it is fair to say almost everyone expected us to lose to Italy in 1990 but 94 was a different story. T would class the win over England in 1988 to be the greatest moment in Irish Sporting history closely followed by Romania in Genoa.


What does that mean?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Think he means the 90% of locals who weren't interested, as I recall.

[DannyInvincible]

I think he's referring to knowledge of the massacre, as in most of our supporters at the game were naturally celebrating the result into the wee small hours but didn't realise what had happened in Loughinisland until the next day.

[gspain01]

I was referring to knowledge of the massacre. We were out most of the night and nobody in those days would have had a mobile phone.

[Crosby87]

Gspain, didnt you end up in drag that night? I seem to remember the taxi drivers not wanting to take us anywhere because of that.

[bennocelt]

True, even in Ireland the massacre didnt register with me for a few days, which is mad when you think about it. Just didnt hear about it till much later

[gspain01]

Gspain, didnt you end up in drag that night? I seem to remember the taxi drivers not wanting to take us anywhere because of that.

Not that I remember. ;)

My decision to fly south the morning after the game wasn't the brightest in hindsight. I think it was an 8am flight via Philly.

[BonnieShels]

Think he means the 90% of locals who weren't interested, as I recall.


I think he's referring to knowledge of the massacre, as in most of our supporters at the game were naturally celebrating the result into the wee small hours but didn't realise what had happened in Loughinisland until the next day.


I was referring to knowledge of the massacre. We were out most of the night and nobody in those days would have had a mobile phone.

Thanks guys. The way I was initially reading it made no sense. It felt like you'd skipped over details about flying from Belfast.

[DannyInvincible]

A Guardian review of Alex Gibney's 'No Stone Unturned', a new feature-length documentary about the Loughinisland massacre: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/oct/06/no-stone-unturned-review-alex-gibney-documentary-northern-ireland-troubles-uvf

[DannyInvincible]

Another piece by Sean O'Hagan on Alex Gibney's new documentary on the Loughinisland massacre: https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/nov/03/why-was-there-a-cover-up-film-maker-alex-gibney-on-a-case-of-cold-killing-in-county-down

Here's the official trailer:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqelW7Rhi-4