Alan Cawley on Oriel Park Pitch

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/irish/2014/0422/610286-cawley/

[mcgonigle]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/irish/2014/0422/610286-cawley/


How original from Cawley! There's a lot wrong with that piece but I couldn't be bothered anymore...

[Mr A]

Giving this its own thread rather than clogging up the stadium work thread with it.

[White Horse]

At least Alan Cawley has played on Oriel Park. Therefore, I give his arguments more credence than the lazy journalism that many pundits trot out.

The one think that irks me is his incorrect statement that the pitch is not being properly maintained. In the last two years, the pitch has received weekly maintenance in order to ensure that it is in the best possible matchday condition. This doesn't come cheap, so it is an incorrect allegation that Dundalk FC are being negligent with maintenance.

The pitch is due for replacement in the next couple of years and it would be great too see a return to grass. That would cause a problem in Dundalk as Oriel Park is a community resource that is used by other clubs and organisations. Clubs like to talk about community this and community that. However, being a real community club means sharing your facilities and the biggest facility is the football pitch.

[avvenalaf]

Take a wee trip west and see how Rovers can produce a proper football pitch AND community facilities.

[White Horse]

Take a wee trip west and see how Rovers can produce a proper football pitch AND community facilities.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/irish-soccer-league/2012/1221/359997-sligo-welcome-sports-capital-grant-funding/

It is well understood how the facilities were produced. Fair play to all involved in putting the funding together.

[bluewhitearmy]

At least Alan Cawley has played on Oriel Park. Therefore, I give his arguments more credence than the lazy journalism that many pundits trot out.

The one think that irks me is his incorrect statement that the pitch is not being properly maintained. In the last two years, the pitch has received weekly maintenance in order to ensure that it is in the best possible matchday condition. This doesn't come cheap, so it is an incorrect allegation that Dundalk FC are being negligent with maintenance.

The pitch is due for replacement in the next couple of years and it would be great too see a return to grass. That would cause a problem in Dundalk as Oriel Park is a community resource that is used by other clubs and organisations. Clubs like to talk about community this and community that. However, being a real community club means sharing your facilities and the biggest facility is the football pitch.

Weekly maintenance is that enough though? Is it the right kind of maintenance? From what I'm told these pitches need specific maintenance so if it is not receiving that then he is right. The pitch is not in a good condition its not in the best condition one of those pitches can be in so clearly the work being done on it is not enough or not being done properly.

[gormacha]

Well maintained or not, artificial pitches are a joke.

The only one I've ever seen behave remotely similarly to grass is the one the Portland Timbers play on, and even that isn't that great. Their surface is FieldTurf. What is the surface at Oriel?

An NFL research panel found that the incidence of serious knee and ankle injuries (especially ACL injuries) are 88% higher on artificial turf. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4988136

[Ezeikial]

Giving this its own thread rather than clogging up the stadium work thread with it.

It would be helpful if you could also number these Oriel pitch threads.

Please wake me up if anyone says anything new

[Longfordian]

It would be helpful if you could also number these Oriel pitch threads.

Please wake me up if anyone says anything new

I love the Oriel Park pitch!

[Charlie Darwin]

The one think that irks me is his incorrect statement that the pitch is not being properly maintained. In the last two years, the pitch has received weekly maintenance in order to ensure that it is in the best possible matchday condition. This doesn't come cheap, so it is an incorrect allegation that Dundalk FC are being negligent with maintenance.
But if it's being properly maintained, why is it still so bad? The only conclusion you can draw is that the surface is so incredibly awful that even proper maintenance can't make it halfway playable. There's a pretty good reason why Oriel was ranked below every First Division pitch - some of which you wouldn't let your dog run about in - when the PFAI were doing the pitch ratings surveys. Nobody likes playing on it and nobody likes watching teams play on it. Except for Dundalk fans, for some godforsaken reason.

[Sheridan]

Point 1: Oriel pitch clearly has a case to answer. No other UEFA-approved surface I've seen in any professional European league looks as threadbare and discoloured as Oriel.

Point 2: Alan Cawley's columns make Mark O'Neill-Cummins look like the second coming of Marcel Proust.

[Dodge]

Is the weekly maintenance the half time watering?

[White Horse]

But if it's being properly maintained, why is it still so bad? The only conclusion you can draw is that the surface is so incredibly awful that even proper maintenance can't make it halfway playable. There's a pretty good reason why Oriel was ranked below every First Division pitch - some of which you wouldn't let your dog run about in - when the PFAI were doing the pitch ratings surveys. Nobody likes playing on it and nobody likes watching teams play on it. Except for Dundalk fans, for some godforsaken reason.

Most people derive their opinion from it's appearance on television. For some reason, it looks dreadful on camera.

I travel to most away games so I see Dundalk play on grass and on the 3G pitch. I have seen much worse surfaces than Oriel Park this season. For example, the pitch in Athlone looked fine to the naked eye. However, there were numerous examples of strange bounces that players on both sides misjudged. I was in UCD a couple of weeks ago and Dundalk players mentioned afterwards that they were forced to play a more aerial game as they couldn't play their normal quick passing game on the deck as the ball was bobbling all over the place.

A couple of season ago, the issue was player injury. However, Dundalk's record of muscle injuries and strains is the best in the league.

I am not an advocate of artifical surfaces and would like to see a grass surface in Oriel Park. However, I also tire of criticisms that are nothing other than ill informed prejudice.

[Dodge]

However, I also tire of criticisms that are nothing other than ill informed prejudice.

Sure, people criticizing the pitch are the ones with prejudice. Not the Dundalk fans...

[Charlie Darwin]

For example, the pitch in Athlone looked fine to the naked eye. However, there were numerous examples of strange bounces that players on both sides misjudged.
Just like at Oriel.


I was in UCD a couple of weeks ago and Dundalk players mentioned afterwards that they were forced to play a more aerial game as they couldn't play their normal quick passing game on the deck as the ball was bobbling all over the place.
Just like at Oriel.

[GCdfc]

Of course we should go with the CSKA solution just to make it appealing to the eye as most judgements about the pitch are based.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/23/cska-moscow-spray-pitch-manchester-city

[adamd164]

He's definitely right in the second part of that article about the fixtures.... Our game away to Limerick, by far the closest derby, was scheduled for a regular Monday night earlier in April. Absurd.

The fixtures don't have to be randomly drawn, everyone plays each other anyway. They should be used to maximise attendances.

[Dodge]

He's definitely right in the second part of that article about the fixtures.... Our game away to Limerick, by far the closest derby, was scheduled for a regular Monday night earlier in April. Absurd.

The fixtures don't have to be randomly drawn, everyone plays each other anyway. They should be used to maximise attendances.
Isn't it preferable to have Limerick away on a Monday (for travelling purposes) than say Derry or Sligo?

Fully agree that current approach to fixtures is lazy but it's not as simple as having big games on Good Friday

[seand]

Sure, people criticizing the pitch are the ones with prejudice. Not the Dundalk fans...

Surely everyone is prejudiced in some way (apart from me).

Anyway, we're ignoring the big issue with the Dundalk pitch.... how does it affect Shamrock Rovers fans and their pitch invasions? Do they have different tactics when invading a grass pitch in celebration of a suprise late equaliser at other venues?

[CuanaD]

He's definitely right in the second part of that article about the fixtures.... Our game away to Limerick, by far the closest derby, was scheduled for a regular Monday night earlier in April. Absurd.

The fixtures don't have to be randomly drawn, everyone plays each other anyway. They should be used to maximise attendances.

I think we could go a little further on that one too - if Dundalk are home to Drogs on Good Friday, why not have the opposite fixture on Easter Monday too - Derry v Sligo followed by Sligo v Derry on Monday etc.
That would instantly add to the excitement of a Total Football Derby Weekend & give the opportunity to link ticket sales - things like 'buy home & away tickets & get free coach travel/free scarf/whatever'

[Ezeikial]

I was in UCD a couple of weeks ago and Dundalk players mentioned afterwards that they were forced to play a more aerial game as they couldn't play their normal quick passing game on the deck as the ball was bobbling all over the place.






Just like at Oriel.

What a comedian (you are joking, aren't you?)

The only aerial hoofball I have seen at Oriel Park this season came from Rovers.

Whatever about other issues, the pitch facilitates playing passing football.

[pineapple stu]

I think we could go a little further on that one too - if Dundalk are home to Drogs on Good Friday, why not have the opposite fixture on Easter Monday too - Derry v Sligo followed by Sligo v Derry on Monday etc.
They used to have that back in the 90s. I think the complaint was that if you had a couple of players missing for, say, a two-match ban or a short-term injury, playing a title rival twice in three days would put you at an extra disadvantage.

[Charlie Darwin]

What a comedian (you are joking, aren't you?)

The only aerial hoofball I have seen at Oriel Park this season came from Rovers.

Whatever about other issues, the pitch facilitates playing passing football.
Not sure why you'd think that's a joke. Dundalk fans here often complain about teams going to Oriel and playing long ball football. Anybody who watched the Rovers Setanta game could see why Rovers were going long - any pass along the pitch that went further than a few yards hopped up in the air, and both teams were affected. It facilitates passing football in the sense that anything other than a short pass is unpredictable.

[White Horse]

Anybody who watched the Rovers Setanta game could see why Rovers were going long - any pass along the pitch that went further than a few yards hopped up in the air, and both teams were affected. It facilitates passing football in the sense that anything other than a short pass is unpredictable.

Complete rubbish.

The ball runs quickly when the pitch is properly watered. However, it runs stright and true and doesn't bobble.

There was an issue a couple of seasons ago with the ball bobbling. However, this was due to the rubber pellets forming into clusters due to lack of brushing. The pitch is now brushed every week.

[Charlie Darwin]

I saw the ball bobbling a week ago. It might suit Dundalk as it encourages a short passing game because it's unpredictable.

[Ezeikial]

Not sure why you'd think that's a joke. Dundalk fans here often complain about teams going to Oriel and playing long ball football. Anybody who watched the Rovers Setanta game could see why Rovers were going long - any pass along the pitch that went further than a few yards hopped up in the air, and both teams were affected. It facilitates passing football in the sense that anything other than a short pass is unpredictable.

My conclusion on your series of post is that either

a) you are trolling
b) you are deluded
or
c)you are too busying making over 10,000 posts to actually go to or understand football

Only Rovers played aerial hoofball in Oriel so far this season

[PartySaint]

Only Rovers played aerial hoofball in Oriel so far this season

I'm pretty sure if I checked back through threads (obviously not going to bother) Dundalk fans will be accusing whatever team they were playing at home against that week of 'hoofing' the ball

[Charlie Darwin]

My conclusion on your series of post is that either

a) you are trolling
b) you are deluded
or
c)you are too busying making over 10,000 posts to actually go to or understand football

Only Rovers played aerial hoofball in Oriel so far this season
Correct on all three Zeke. I acknowledged at the time that Rovers played hoofball and it was awful to watch. I also commented that the pitch was terrible, because it was, and outside of Dundalk most people recognise that.

[Louth4sam]

Correct on all three Zeke. I acknowledged at the time that Rovers played hoofball and it was awful to watch. I also commented that the pitch was terrible, because it was, and outside of Dundalk most people recognise that.

Why did Rovers stop playing hoof ball when they were chasing the game last Friday? Did the pitch suddenly become playable?

[oriel]

I would personally prefer if we played on a grass surface,hence my signature (for quite a long time) however I do agree with a point above, I think by Whitehorse, it does for some reason look really bad on tv. I made a point at looking at it up close at the last Rovers game and it looked surprisingly good.

The source of income would be a loss if it ever was changed back, the local winter league being one area for example that make a good contribution yearly, however the club must be paying a fair bit on maintenance also.

I'm not sure what options the club have if it was to change back to grass, Nov to Feb are obviously not good grass growing months, so if they did change they would have to follow the same process that clubs in UK do when they replace their entire pitch.

The loss of income from rentals would need to be factored in, as would not having it being made readily available for community events, and although as i said my personal preference would be grass, I also do not accept the current pitch is near as bad as some are making out.

[Ezeikial]

I'm pretty sure if I checked back through threads (obviously not going to bother) Dundalk fans will be accusing whatever team they were playing at home against that week of 'hoofing' the ball

Limerick, Bohemians and Derry were the other teams that have visited Oriel Park in the league so far this season. All 3 came with a defensive approach, but only Shamrock Rovers adopted a strategy of aerial hoofball.

In away games only Drogheda had a preference for 'direct football'

[dundalkfc10]

Correct on all three Zeke. I acknowledged at the time that Rovers played hoofball and it was awful to watch. I also commented that the pitch was terrible, because it was, and outside of Dundalk most people recognise that.

Why did Rovers play hoofball against us in Tallaght then in the 1st leg of the Setanta Cup, Do Rovers not like Tallaghts surface either or is it just a fact ya play hoofball in most games and not just in Oriel, or is it just against Dundalk?

[Charlie Darwin]

Why did Rovers play hoofball against us in Tallaght then in the 1st leg of the Setanta Cup, Do Rovers not like Tallaghts surface either or is it just a fact ya play hoofball in most games and not just in Oriel, or is it just against Dundalk?
In the first half, Dundalk put us under so much pressure we couldn't string a pass together. Second half Rovers played a short passing game, albeit a pretty ineffective one.

[Mr_Parker]

Well maintained or not, artificial pitches are a joke.

The only one I've ever seen behave remotely similarly to grass is the one the Portland Timbers play on, and even that isn't that great. Their surface is FieldTurf. What is the surface at Oriel?

An NFL research panel found that the incidence of serious knee and ankle injuries (especially ACL injuries) are 88% higher on artificial turf. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4988136

Didn't realise that American football was played on artificial surfaces designed for soccer.

Anyway, much better to look at the research of those looking into injuries caused to soccer players who found claims of increased injuries to be rubbish.

[Mr_Parker]

Point 1: Oriel pitch clearly has a case to answer. No other UEFA-approved surface I've seen in any professional European league looks as threadbare and discoloured as Oriel.


You do realise that UEFA don't approve such surfaces?

[geysir]

Should there be a pristine grass pitch at Oriel, it would be advantage Dundalk, visiting teams will be found wanting, the league would be won before September.

Is there not some other space in Dundalk where the plastic can be moved to?

[jinxy lilywhite]

Interesting article on the DFC mag re the OP pitch.
This is the most rigourisly tested pitch in the country and it passes each and every time without fail.
Its is trested in 19 points on the pitch and each time for the bounce of the ball, ball roll, resistance (ability of a player to change direction without causing stress on ligaments or if too low causes slips, shock absorption to test the pitch isn't too soft or hard, and vertical deformation to test of players stress on ankle ligaments.
Each year the pitch is required to pass a FIFA 1 star and it has done every year to participate in the LOI
For European football we are required to pass a FIFA 2 star. This has been passed by FIFA licensed Independent testing company Labosports.

The fact of the matter is that OP is the most stringently tested pitch in Ireland. For some of the cabbage patches I have seen this year around the country these pitches would not pass the tests that we have to undertake every year.

The club is well within the rules of the game for this surface and has passed every test given. People either need to put up or shut up.

Does it give us an advantage? I hope so but it gives us an advantage no more that what Dalymount does for Bohs, Tallaght for Rovers, Inchicore for Pats, United pk for Drogheda, showgrounds for Sligo, Carlisle for Bray, Belfield for UCD, Brandywell for Derry, X for Cork, Lissywollen for Athlone, Thomond for Limerick.

I think we should talk more about the long grass in Tallaght that slows down the ball, the slope in the Brandywell and the the mounds around the goal area in Dalymount,

[Dodge]

People either need to put up or shut up.
Put up what?

[Nesta99]

Not a fan of the gimmicks on MNS/Soccer Republic but Free Kick Kings did show the unpredictable bounce of the Dalymount pitch.

[GCdfc]

Not a fan of the gimmicks on MNS/Soccer Republic but Free Kick Kings did show the unpredictable bounce of the Dalymount pitch.

The Dalymount pitch should get it's own thread now!

[mcgonigle]

Put up what?

Stats to show it's an advantage to Dundalk I presume.

A poster (and author of 'C'Mon the Town') put up a post over on orielweb analyzing all home games since our return to the premier division claiming that the pitch is of less advantage to Dundalk than most clubs home pitch is to them.

The fact is that some people will never like the pitch no matter how many tests it passes or how many stats are produced. Some people simply don't like the look of it! Say it looks terrible on telly, in my opinion that has to do with the camera angle and floodlights, look at the below pic taken on Sunday:

2077

Looks ok to me, but again this is just opinion. There are many Dundalk fans who don't like the pitch and would like to see a return to grass. I think the thing that annoys most Dundalk fans is the amount of publicity the pitch gets when there are many poor grass pitches around the league.

Anyway this same discussion will be repeated until the day comes when the pitch is replaced. God forbid we actually won the league with this pitch, people would be calling for an asterisk beside our name in the history books!

[Mr A]

Oh FFS. I didn't realise it has a slope as well. That pitch is worse than Hitler.

[Ezeikial]

Oh FFS. I didn't realise it has a slope as well. That pitch is worse than Hitler.

It is a mechanically controlled tilt - the half time watering in one half only is to camoflage that the slope is switched at half time

[Eminence Grise]

Oh FFS. I didn't realise it has a slope as well.

That you, Jeremy?

[Overthemoon]

:cool:
It is a mechanically controlled tilt - the half time watering in one half only is to camoflage that the slope is switched at half time
Fantastic post

[Nesta99]

That you, Jeremy?

Easy now Sing Li food van is nowhere near the pitch!

[seand]

Lies, damn lies and statistics, as they say, but here are some stats courtesy of Dundalk historian Jim Murphy.



To any body who gets bored by football statistics and to those who are fed up reading about the PITCH, you can all look away.
For everybody else this is my attempt to identify what kind of advantage, if any, does the PITCH provide to Dundalk.

El-pietro [Cork] a recent contributor to oriel web made a very reasoned case about the pitch and its potential advantages to Dundalk as follows:

“I'm just saying... the pitch does have a factor in every game you play there, of course it does, to say otherwise is foolish. You play 16-17 games a season there, plus every training session, every other club plays 1 or 2 games there.

He makes a valid point that …. “maybe if you played on a grass pitch you’d earn a point or two less a season, or 10, or 6, or 30. It’s impossible to know because we don’t have a control to compare you to.”

I’ve examined all Premier League match results over the five seasons since 2009, our first season back in the Premier Division, and this period covers 903 League games.
The first thing to establish is the extent of the ‘home bonus’ during this period. In other words how many more points can a team expect from home games over away games.

The Facts? During these 5 seasons the total number of points won by home teams was 1318, while away teams gathered 1168… meaning that home advantage was worth a grand total of 150 points [1318 less 1168], the equivalent of 30 points per season and worth just under 3 points per team on average.

The annual averages were reasonably consistent, suggesting that the data is fairly robust, as follows:
2009 (average 3.3), 2010 (3.3), 2011 (2.1), 2012 (2.5) and 2013 (3).
And Dundalk? During this same 5 season period we had a home-over-away excess of just 8 points—under 2 per season.
So Dundalk’s home performance at under 2 points on average better than their away average was slightly worse that the League average of 3. In these circumstances the 5-year playing record shows that no home game advantage by Dundalk can be ascertained.

Of course while these are averages, there is considerable variation between the different teams.
So which teams have clocked up the best home results excess over away?
Sligo (+40 points), Shamrock Rovers (+26), UCD (+25), St Pats (+23) and Cork City (+21 from only 3 seasons)—against Dundalk’s 8 !!!.
And the worst? Derry who managed a total of 8 points better away from home, followed by Bray with a -5 score.

So what is about the Sligo Showgrounds that conferred a 40-point home-match benefit in these 5 seasons (8 per season), or what about Cork’s 7 per season home-ground bonus?
Have they a case to answer? What are they feeding the grass in Sligo? Has the Showgrounds ever been drugs tested?
These statistics, of course, will not convince those who ‘don’t like the pitch’ or who saw it once on television and ‘didn’t like the colouring’ or the expert (!!) who says it is the ‘worst pitch in the world’.

[Mr_Parker]

God forbid we actually won the league with this pitch, people would be calling for an asterisk beside our name in the history books!
Shush you. You'll have people from the Irish League demanding that for us winning the league twice in a row. :eek:

[Dodge]

Stats to show it's an advantage to Dundalk I presume.


Ive never once claimed it was an advantage for dundalk. Pats defeat last June there was their first since Dundalk got promoted so I don't think I could be accused of sour grapes either. I'm not against astro pitches either. Cliftonville's is fine for example

Dundalk's is awful though. Glad it passed all the tests etc. it's still awful