Republic of Ireland V Turkey, Italy, Costa Rica & Portugal - May/June 2014

[gastric]

Just a few comments as I watch Nigeria vs. Bosnia. Whatever system we play, it is imperative that we use players who can consistently pass the bloody ball. No more players who are all huff and puff (Green for one) and more Hendrick, Hoolahan, McCarthy and Gibson, for example, in midfield. Robbie might have scored another 20 goals if he got the service that many other strikers get. In terms of our depth, what is striking about many of the smaller countries in the WC, is that we have probably more players playing at the highest level of football than other comparable nations. What we lack is technique if anything.

[OwlsFan]

Just a few comments as I watch Nigeria vs. Bosnia. Whatever system we play, it is imperative that we use players who can consistently pass the bloody ball. No more players who are all huff and puff (Green for one) and more Hendrick, Hoolahan, McCarthy and Gibson, for example, in midfield. Robbie might have scored another 20 goals if he got the service that many other strikers get. In terms of our depth, what is striking about many of the smaller countries in the WC, is that we have probably more players playing at the highest level of football than other comparable nations. What we lack is technique if anything.

Didn't Bosnia pass the ball quite well but were ineffective at it and are sitting with 0 points? No point passing the ball for the sake of it. It has to be effective. Hendrick = Championship. Hoolahan = Championship (plus club don't want him). Also I don't think even the Premiership is the highest level of football. I bet Everton will struggle in the Europa League.


That was one thing I really could not understand about Trap dropping Stephen Hunt. He was deadly from set pieces. God knows when McClean and McGeady cross the ball it's likely to go anywhere

Was he not injured and then didn't get back in to the squad as he dropped down a league? No moaning from him though unlike others.

[gastric]

Didn't Bosnia pass the ball quite well but were ineffective at it and are sitting with 0 points? No point passing the ball for the sake of it. It has to be effective. Hendrick = Championship. Hoolahan = Championship (plus club don't want him). Also I don't think even the Premiership is the highest level of football. I bet Everton will struggle in the Europa League.



Was he not injured and then didn't get back in to the squad as he dropped down a league? No moaning from him though unlike others.

I really don't get your point. All I am saying is to build an effective game, you need to be able to pass. You can mention Bosnia as an example, but what about the other nations who have been successful so far in the WC? All have a good passing game. In regard to Hoolahan and Hendrick, they do have a good passing game and the fact they play in the Championship is fine by me. I mentioned that many Irish players play at a high level, I am not saying the Premiership is the best league in the world, more it is of a higher standard than the Hungarian, Chinese, Middle East or Australian leagues where players of comparable nations in the WC ply their trade.

[tetsujin1979]

I'd say tets would have the exact figures. Off-hand, from the 2010 campaign I can remember his assist for you against Italy, Dunne's away at Bulgaria and it was his delivery that led to Dunne's goal at home too, via O'Shea. I think there was another that year but I can't remember.

four assists under Trapattoni - Dunne VS Bulgaria, St Ledger VS Italy at the Euros, and Cox and Andrews VS Italy in Belgium

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Didn't Bosnia pass the ball quite well but were ineffective at it and are sitting with 0 points? No point passing the ball for the sake of it. It has to be effective. Hendrick = Championship. Hoolahan = Championship (plus club don't want him). Also I don't think even the Premiership is the highest level of football. I bet Everton will struggle in the Europa League.



Was he not injured and then didn't get back in to the squad as he dropped down a league? No moaning from him though unlike others.

I disagree. Bosnia finished top of their Qualifying group with 8 W 1 D and 1 L, 12 points above Slovakia in third place - the same Slovakia we patted ourselves on the back for drawing with twice when we stumbled over the line to Euro 2012 Qualification.

They were unlucky to lose to Argentina, when the best player in the world ultimately made the difference between the two teams and they were unlucky to lose to Nigeria; Nigeria's goal was lucky to stand and Dzeko had a perfectly good goal ruled out.

It was a much more valiant exercise than our Euro 2012 campaign when we were just unlucky not to concede double figures against Spain and went down without so much as a whimper against Croatia and Italy.

[DannyInvincible]

I disagree. Bosnia finished top of their Qualifying group with 8 W 1 D and 1 L, 12 points above Slovakia in third place - the same Slovakia we patted ourselves on the back for drawing with twice when we stumbled over the line to Euro 2012 Qualification.

They were unlucky to lose to Argentina, when the best player in the world ultimately made the difference between the two teams and they were unlucky to lose to Nigeria; Nigeria's goal was lucky to stand and Dzeko had a perfectly good goal ruled out.

It was a much more valiant exercise than our Euro 2012 campaign when we were just unlucky not to concede double figures against Spain and went down without so much as a whimper against Croatia and Italy.

Aye, I definitely think Bosnia can feel hard done-by in terms of the decisions going against them. They had some other chances too that they should have converted, but thay have nobody to blame there but themselves. Still, as you say, theirs was a much more valiant effort than our own at the Euros two years ago. We were just all-round bad and had to accept our fate - nothing could have redeemed matters because we simply didn't create anything to provide redemption - whereas some of the Bosnians who fell to the ground in disappointment after the final whistle last night had a right to feel somewhat aggrieved with a sense of "close, but no cigar".

[Stuttgart88]

Bosnia's effort was better than ours no doubt but as usual there's so much nonsense in TOWK's post. Barely a whimper against Croatia? We fought tooth and nail but were short of the standard required. If you're going to bang on about refereeing not favouring Bosnia you can say the same for Ireland against Croatia. Jelavic's goal was highly debatable to say the least and we had a stonewall penalty denied. I saw nothing wrong with Nigeria's goal (assuming the issue is the way the Nigerian winger ghosted past a left back that'd have made Stephen Ward look like Denis Irwin? Not even a hint of a foul for me.)

Now, if Robbie Keane had missed the chances that Dzeko missed I can guess the reaction from some here. He took his legit goal well but looked like a park footballer for the rest. Bosnia's excellent midfielders and the 1G and 2G Bosnians (let's not go there...) they had playing for them had their work wasted by Dzeko and the other big lank who missed a straightforward header.

Quit the self loathing. Spain outclassed us, as they have done to many teams. We shot ourselves in the foot with basic errors and, in my opinion, poor selection and substitutions. We put up a good fight against Croatia and Italy but unfortunately fight was about all we had. Had that Bosnia team been in our group in the Euros they might easily have got null points too. We did beat them just before the tournament.

[SwanVsDalton]

Well it certainly can't be Walters, as the Portugal game yet again proved. He doesn't link up the play, offers no goal threat, has no pace and is poor in the air. He's a battering ram which might have it's purposes but we have to be aspiring better. Whatever about his alleged poor club form, Doyle has been consistently important for Ireland.

It's just a pity that Stokes still hasn't played up front for Ireland. He can consistently score goals against poor teams; he can do it against Gibraltar and Georgia.

Wouldn't agree with that either. Just prior to his dropping from the squad, he was regularly underperforming for Ireland and making little to no impact. I recall quite clearly Doyle being a barnstormer but, for me, that dried up a couple of years ago.

A potent Doyle can be a powerful presence, so I wouldn't rule him out but I'm unconvinced.

[gastric]

Just reflecting on past glories, and one of my favourite games ever was against Cameroon when I felt our reaction after Roygate was amazing. While only a draw. we played nice football and Holland's goal was a beauty. The 2002 side had a nice balance to it with possibly only one possible weakness, Harte at left back which Mick never really dealt with. This side played attractive, passing football and only hoofed it forward when Quinner came on, as in the Germany game. I feel we need to look to this side as an example of how we should and could play. No major stars in that team outside of Robbie and Duff and yet they were competitive throughout the tournament. Anyhow I had a look at the team and did we play 442 or 451 as we started with 5 midfielders or did Duff start upfront alongside Robbie which I vaguely remember to be the case? Either way there certainly was a degree of flexibility in the line up, again something we should consider going forward.

[samhaydenjr]

Just reflecting on past glories, and one of my favourite games ever was against Cameroon when I felt our reaction after Roygate was amazing. While only a draw. we played nice football and Holland's goal was a beauty. The 2002 side had a nice balance to it with possibly only one possible weakness, Harte at left back which Mick never really dealt with. This side played attractive, passing football and only hoofed it forward when Quinner came on, as in the Germany game. I feel we need to look to this side as an example of how we should and could play. No major stars in that team outside of Robbie and Duff and yet they were competitive throughout the tournament. Anyhow I had a look at the team and did we play 442 or 451 as we started with 5 midfielders or did Duff start upfront alongside Robbie which I vaguely remember to be the case? Either way there certainly was a degree of flexibility in the line up, again something we should consider going forward.

If memory serves me correctly Mick did deal with the Ian Harte issue in the Saudi Arabia game after the Saudi right-winger totally gave Harte the run-around in the first half. Mick replaced Harte with Kevin Kilbane, who I believe hadn't established himself as a left-back and was more of a back-up for Duff on the left wing (although I'm open to correction on that) - anyway, the extra attacking edge he brought put the Saudi player on the back foot for the second half and snuffed out the danger he posed.

[Fixer82]

If memory serves me correctly Mick did deal with the Ian Harte issue in the Saudi Arabia game after the Saudi right-winger totally gave Harte the run-around in the first half. Mick replaced Harte with Kevin Kilbane, who I believe hadn't established himself as a left-back and was more of a back-up for Duff on the left wing (although I'm open to correction on that) - anyway, the extra attacking edge he brought put the Saudi player on the back foot for the second half and snuffed out the danger he posed.

Kilbane was already on the left wing. Duffer was playing up front with Keane in 2002.
I think, in that Saudi game, Kilbane moved to left back, Duff moved to the wing and Quinn replaced Harte

[osarusan]

BI saw nothing wrong with Nigeria's goal (assuming the issue is the way the Nigerian winger ghosted past a left back that'd have made Stephen Ward look like Denis Irwin? Not even a hint of a foul for me.)


I think there is an ankle tap on the Bosnian defender as he cuts behind him. It's about 5.20 into the video here.

http://www.matchhighlight.com/latest-goals/world-cup-2014/nigeria-vs-bosnia-herzegovina/

[paul_oshea]

Stutts most of them arent 2gs or 1gs, they left as very young kids.

Ibra is seen as a traitor.

[gastric]

Ye lads in regards to Harte, he did start against the Saudis, but I felt after the German game, Harte should have been dropped. I will always remember the Saudi game, I cycled from London to Brighton for charity that day, after a reasonably big night before. What kept me going was the need to get back to London to watch the game with the other 5 Irish blokes I lived with. Got back to find them drunk and after a few beers I basically feel asleep and missed the end of a pretty ordinary game. Memories!

[Stuttgart88]

I think there is an ankle tap on the Bosnian defender as he cuts behind him. It's about 5.20 into the video here.

http://www.matchhighlight.com/latest-goals/world-cup-2014/nigeria-vs-bosnia-herzegovina/
Still not a foul for me. I saw the contact and can see that it was what put the Bosnia player down but the Nigerian did nothing wrong, he just ran across a trailing foot and was determined to do nothing but get the ball.

[OwlsFan]

Ye lads in regards to Harte, he did start against the Saudis, but I felt after the German game, Harte should have been dropped. I will always remember the Saudi game, I cycled from London to Brighton for charity that day, after a reasonably big night before. What kept me going was the need to get back to London to watch the game with the other 5 Irish blokes I lived with. Got back to find them drunk and after a few beers I basically feel asleep and missed the end of a pretty ordinary game. Memories!

Ireland 3 Saudi Arabia 0 in the World Cup Finals. "A pretty ordinary game" ?? The stuff dreams are made of.

[tetsujin1979]

Ye lads in regards to Harte, he did start against the Saudis, but I felt after the German game, Harte should have been dropped. I will always remember the Saudi game, I cycled from London to Brighton for charity that day, after a reasonably big night before. What kept me going was the need to get back to London to watch the game with the other 5 Irish blokes I lived with. Got back to find them drunk and after a few beers I basically feel asleep and missed the end of a pretty ordinary game. Memories!so you will always remember that you don't remember the game at all?

[paul_oshea]

But still knew it was a pretty ordinary game.

[samhaydenjr]

Ye lads in regards to Harte, he did start against the Saudis, but I felt after the German game, Harte should have been dropped. I will always remember the Saudi game, I cycled from London to Brighton for charity that day, after a reasonably big night before. What kept me going was the need to get back to London to watch the game with the other 5 Irish blokes I lived with. Got back to find them drunk and after a few beers I basically feel asleep and missed the end of a pretty ordinary game. Memories!

What! A game where Ireland takes on "lesser" opposition and wins comfortably with little or no drama - that's not ordinary - that's a once in a lifetime experience to be savoured forever!;)

[samhaydenjr]

Kilbane was already on the left wing. Duffer was playing up front with Keane in 2002.
I think, in that Saudi game, Kilbane moved to left back, Duff moved to the wing and Quinn replaced Harte

Absolutely correct - good memory

[paul_oshea]

I have to say I don't really agree with a lot of oneill says in his analysis of games. Some of it is kinda worrying.

[Charlie Darwin]

Such as?

[DannyInvincible]

I have to say I don't really agree with a lot of oneill says in his analysis of games. Some of it is kinda worrying.

Anything specific or in particular that has concerned you? I've always thought of him as a very astute and coherent analyst of the game.

[Stuttgart88]

He just said that every team in the tournie has a deficiency. I agree.

[paul_oshea]

It's his reading of the defensive line and where players should be etc.3 times now.

fabio keeps calling oneill the boss.but I think oneill is a bit of a bully on this.its funny how he asks fabio and dismisses Ian Wright though.

[DannyInvincible]

Martin is simply reminding Fabio of his place and to respect his (decorated) elders. Smiling Fabio was initially the patronising one. He'd doubted that nimble wee Martin with the glasses had even played the game until Martin revealed he'd actually won two European Cups compared to Fabio's none. I haven't seen them together since that, but I can only assume Fabio is a lot more deferential now.

And would you trust Ian Wright with a question? Any question?

[gastric]

I apologise profusely for not remembering the game properly. Hangover, 60 mile cycle including cycling up that massive hill outside Brighton plus beer at home. Excuses I know, but true! Jeez, you're horrible, harsh critics on here.

[tetsujin1979]

He just said that every team in the tournie has a deficiency. I agree.
I think that's made the tournament amazing to watch

[Charlie Darwin]

Martin is simply reminding Fabio of his place and to respect his (decorated) elders. Smiling Fabio was initially the patronising one. He'd doubted that nimble wee Martin with the glasses had even played the game until Martin revealed he'd actually won two European Cups compared to Fabio's none. I haven't seen them together since that, but I can only assume Fabio is a lot more deferential now.

And would you trust Ian Wright with a question? Any question?
Are you implying they're the same person?

[paul_oshea]

They were together last night, and everytime Fabio makes a comment he says I agree with you Boss, and looks to him.

I saw where he told viera and fabio of the 2 european cups i was watching it, was funny but I dont think they were wholly dimissive, certainly viera wasnt anyway, but they were more siding with eachother. It was initially because the night before martin disagreed with viera, and he didnt like that viera had disagreed with him, he kinda blew it up into something. I've always felt a bit uncomfortable watching martin on ITV/BBC when doing the analysing, like he is a little sore and trying to control things.

The defensive line thing was about playing offside, and also about defending from crosses, I took the same view as viera and fabio on 2 seperate occassions but oneill blamed the defenders who were trying to play offisde. He also blamed paulinho or whoever was standing on the near post for cameroons goal for not cutting out the cross, and marcelo and luiz for not keeping an eye on the ball rather than the player. He had a point on both but I don't think it was as straightforward as that. I'd worry that what he is telling the players is different from what they hear day in day out at club level and hence will cause confusion and players will end up in no mans land in games, like Stutts suggested for the Turkey and Serbia games. We looked all at sea, especially the likes of coleman who normallly has decent positional sense and awareness.

[DannyInvincible]

Are you implying they're the same person?

Like Clark Kent/Superman maybe...


I saw where he told viera and fabio of the 2 european cups i was watching it, was funny but I dont think they were wholly dimissive, certainly viera wasnt anyway, but they were more siding with eachother. It was initially because the night before martin disagreed with viera, and he didnt like that viera had disagreed with him, he kinda blew it up into something. I've always felt a bit uncomfortable watching martin on ITV/BBC when doing the analysing, like he is a little sore and trying to control things.

I got the distinct impression from the way he spoke and how Vieira and Fabio reacted with coy laughter that Martin was alluding to something that had been exchanged off-camera. It seemed they'd been unaware of his record and perhaps doubted his footballing clout as a result. Of course, Martin was very keen to correct any lack of knowledge. I hadn't seen the night before, but maybe that contributed too.

[SwanVsDalton]

They were together last night, and everytime Fabio makes a comment he says I agree with you Boss, and looks to him.

I saw where he told viera and fabio of the 2 european cups i was watching it, was funny but I dont think they were wholly dimissive, certainly viera wasnt anyway, but they were more siding with eachother. It was initially because the night before martin disagreed with viera, and he didnt like that viera had disagreed with him, he kinda blew it up into something. I've always felt a bit uncomfortable watching martin on ITV/BBC when doing the analysing, like he is a little sore and trying to control things.

I never think he comes across as sore, just forthright. They're all pros, it's just banter. I think their interactions are generally quite warm, if spiky. Bit like RTE, in the sense the panel can go for each other's throats on-camera but can leave that at the door and go for a pint too.


The defensive line thing was about playing offside, and also about defending from crosses, I took the same view as viera and fabio on 2 seperate occassions but oneill blamed the defenders who were trying to play offisde. He also blamed paulinho or whoever was standing on the near post for cameroons goal for not cutting out the cross, and marcelo and luiz for not keeping an eye on the ball rather than the player. He had a point on both but I don't think it was as straightforward as that. I'd worry that what he is telling the players is different from what they hear day in day out at club level and hence will cause confusion and players will end up in no mans land in games, like Stutts suggested for the Turkey and Serbia games. We looked all at sea, especially the likes of coleman who normallly has decent positional sense and awareness.

I only saw the Cameroon goal analysis, but I agreed with him. Don't think it was too controversial an opinion.

As for what players might hear day-to-day, players are going to hear different things from all their managers. Ultimately O'Neill has been hired to manage his way and if what he says is different from what a player hears at club level, so be it. He can't account for what 20 different managers are telling his players, he has to manage them to play together and to a set game plan. And I can't see him giving them advice that's totally at odds with conventional football wisdom.

[Stuttgart88]

I have doubts about MON's methods being appropriate for modern international football but I think no matter how much the game changes the basics of good defending never really do. Nor do the basics of organisation, where O'Neill has good form.

I've been impressed by Strachan's utterances the few times I've heard him. A particularly interesting exchange came yesterday following Rooney's comment (hypocritical - just ask ask Sol Campbell or Bastien Schweinsteiger) about England not diving enough like, say, Uruguay. Strachan gave his recollection of playing Uruguay in the Mexico 86 WC, saying he couldn't fathom how they could play in such a dishonest manner. Then a few days later the Scots players visited a Mexican slum and Strachan said he had never seen poverty anything like it, not even in Scotland's sink estates. Winnning football games was a way out for these people and bearing this in mind it's just not right to expect they'll have the same sporting values that emanated from the British schools system in Victorian times. I agree and much as diving annoys me, critics of football fail to recognise just how the game permeates the poorest levels of society all over the world.

[paul_oshea]

Winnning football games was a way out for these people

It has nothing to do with that at all. Its not like its a way out and they will do anything like diving in a football match. These people don't have the same moral values as they are brought up differently, its about survival and they lack the basic moral code and value distilled in those brought up and not dragged up. Look at the colombian team of 94, nearly all bar escobar were rascals and from bad areas, but escobar was always a gentleman.

The most distinct one was when viera and oneill disagreed about playing the offisde and not playing it, the 2 central defenders were in sync for australia and moved out together, the left back stayed and was keeping an eye on the run(of robbeni think), but he had clear vision of the two central defenders, he should have stepped forward, he didn't and kept robben onside. Big mistake, it reminded me of watching the line since oneill took over, its all over the shop, there is no straight line, players are not in sync.

If oneills idea behind this was you cant trust the offisde and you cant trust that the officials to make the correct decision i could agree somewhat but this wasnt the case, but he sided with the individual where the other 3 were in sync, and funnily enough the left back had the best view of all.

And yes he cant teach them but if 20 managers are in tune with playing the sameway in the backline and he tries to distill his theory on them they will be all at sea like we have seen in the past.

[Charlie Darwin]

I didn't think it was possible but Paul O'Shea has just put diving to win a free kick down to bad parenting.

[paul_oshea]

Haha, not quite but the point that strachan was making and stutts was making was not as simplistic as a footballing way of life. Its a way of life.

[CraftyToePoke]

I'd imagine there would be some fairly tough neighbourhoods in post communist and post conflict eastern Europe, Baltic and former Soviet block places. Those lads don't roll around on the grass. I think Strachan was wide there.

[Stuttgart88]

Nonsense. There was no poverty under communism. You have fallen for the usual western economic propaganda.

I think Strachan has a point. That's not to say middle class kids don't cheat (Robben) or that all street urchins are cheats or even that all cheats are street urchins, but I think there's probably a relationship. The same social conditions that lead to gang culture are, in my estimation, more likely to produce a player with little hesitation to take a dive than a kid who learnt to play his sport in a half decent school. Not all kids in extreme poverty get sucked into gangs (good parenting and all that), but extreme poverty is one factor that causes gang culture, for example.

Of course none of us is a sociologist so none of us really knows, but Strachan's point sounds sensible to me and, after all, he was there.

[paul_oshea]

I dont know why i spelt robben like that, i profusely apologise!

[DannyInvincible]

Funnily enough, I happened to write this piece (http://backpagefootball.com/is-the-dark-art-really-as-exotic-as-some-like-to-pretend-is-it/37468/) on the issue of diving being less alien than some might think after Ashley Young stirred a fair bit of controversy with his play-acting two years ago.


It has nothing to do with that at all. Its not like its a way out and they will do anything like diving in a football match. These people don't have the same moral values as they are brought up differently, its about survival and they lack the basic moral code and value distilled in those brought up and not dragged up. Look at the colombian team of 94, nearly all bar escobar were rascals and from bad areas, but escobar was always a gentleman.

Who lacks a basic moral code? Those from deprived or impoverished ("bad"?) backgrounds? What a load of nonsense. Are you saying Escobar was one of the few in that 1994 Colombian squad from a privileged background, and that's why he also happened to be its only gentleman?... Not just nonsense, but offensive nonsense.

Cycling is a sport that has been dogged with rampant cheating down through the years. It's very much a sport of the white privileged class. Explain its suspect values... Are the materially-impoverished African countries any more or less prone to simulation in football than their counterparts from more affluent continents? Of course not.

Some of human history's greatest oppressors, exploiters and swindlers were anything but deprived. They were from the empires of wealth, power and glory spreading their "British values from British schools" and the like around the globe. If anything, they were the ultimate experts in deception. They used their cunning to conceal their sins behind veneers of moral crusade and cultural generosity. Much like the US does today - the world's "moral guardian" - purporting to be spreading freedom and democratic values around the globe. Poverty itself is the criminal symptom of imperial abuse, conquest and globalisation. To claim the impoverished lack the basic moral code of the privileged is an insult to the victims of elite oppression throughout human history. To be honest, it sounds like veiled (or unwitting, to give the benefit of the doubt) xenophobia/socio-cultural superiority to me; this notion that we in the developed/privileged world are more moral and well-mannered than "they" are. Of course we'll conveniently tell ourselves our values are always superior to theirs. If they're lacking something in the deprived world, maybe it's the deceptive subtlety and sophistication possessed by successful swindlers in the developed world.

Diving, or cheating, is a vice of which humans/footballers are universally guilty. Its performance is not limited to only those from developing societies. The likes of Damien Duff, Frank Lampard, Thomas Müller, Arjen Robben and Jürgen Klinsmann; all happy divers when the opportunity presented or presents itself. Irish players, English players, American players, German players, Italian players; none are immune. Cheating occurs in all sports, because it's something that humans do when the stakes are high enough to motivate or "warrant" it. It's rooted in human self-interest. The higher the stakes or the more competitive the contest, the greater the chance of someone, irrespective of their socio-cultural background, utilising deceit if they think they can get away with it. Professionalisation and increased competition has obviously contributed to such behaviour, but it's perhaps the ruthless "win at all costs" business-like ethos permeating modern football and sport that provides the primary breeding ground for this evident contempt for one's opponents and the game itself; as it goes, "if it's profitable, it's justifiable".

[paul_oshea]

Suarez bit chellini because he would do anything to get out of a slum and make it in football? I think not.

enjoy your theoretical bubble di, ask anyone from south America what to expect from these places and they will tell you the same, obviously not every single one is predisposed but it's the majority socio-economic related...

[Stuttgart88]

Paul, you have a terrible habit of creating stupid straw men to try and make a point. I didn't relate slums to acts of wanton violence. I related slums to some players lacking the same sporting values that people from relatively privileged backgrounds expect.

Suarez bit Chiellini because he's a scumbag. What's the root cause of Suarez being a scumbag? Who knows?

What does your second paragraph mean, especially the last line? I've read it 5 times over and have no idea whether you're contradicting yourself or not. And what's your sample size of "anyone in South America"?

[DannyInvincible]

Suarez bit chellini because he would do anything to get out of a slum and make it in football? I think not.

I wasn't arguing that at all.


enjoy your theoretical bubble di, ask anyone from south America what to expect from these places and they will tell you the same, obviously not every single one is predisposed but it's the majority socio-economic related...

Which places? South American slums? And predisposed to what exactly? Immoral behaviour (behaviour we don't like, in other words)? Morally-suspect behaviour is not the preserve of the impoverished classes.

[Charlie Darwin]

Paul, you have a terrible habit of creating stupid straw men to try and make a point. I didn't relate slums to acts of wanton violence. I related slums to some players lacking the same sporting values that people from relatively privileged backgrounds expect.

Suarez bit Chiellini because he's a scumbag. What's the root cause of Suarez being a scumbag? Who knows?

What does your second paragraph mean, especially the last line? I've read it 5 times over and have no idea whether you're contradicting yourself or not. And what's your sample size of "anyone in South America"?
Paul knows everyone in South America. All the real South Americans who go to football games and live in poverty.

[CraftyToePoke]

Nonsense. There was no poverty under communism. You have fallen for the usual western economic propaganda.

I have fallen for nothing. And in any event said post communist. So there.

[osarusan]

I don't really buy the argument that there is a correlation between the kind of upbringing you had and the kind of sporting behaviour you expect (or is expected of you).

Some players will cheat because it will help them win. They will do it regardless of where they're from. Some players won't. I doubt there will be a greater percentage of those who will coming from disadvantaged childhoods.

As Danny I said, there is a win-at-all-costs attitude amongst loads of sports. Sports which are both more and less accessible to the poor. This attitude leads to some sportspeople taking PEDs, faking blood injuries, paying to have rivals stabbed. If you raise the stakes enough, then some sportspeople are going to go to any lengths to succeed.

In terms of diving, if they get away with it, who cares? Who cares if it costs another team a place in a world cup or other tournament? Who cares what fans of other teams think? The majority of these fans who are so outraged would probably defend a dive by a player from their team just as blindly as those fans they criticize.

Any moral highground that British players or fans might have once had is long gone, if it ever existed, because they've seen how effective and rewarding this kind of behaviour can be, and have embraced it as a part of their footballing culture.

[SkStu]

Unreal the amount of complete and utter horsesh!t that's posted on this forum these days.

[BonnieShels]

Unreal the amount of complete and utter horsesh!t that's posted on this forum these days.


The correlation of the "higher moral ground" and a Posh treatise on "why he knows better" is becoming inseparable.

[Eminence Grise]

Sociology and behaviouralism be damned. It's all about hunger to succeed.

And Suarez is obviously hungrier than most...

[DannyInvincible]

Unreal the amount of complete and utter horsesh!t that's posted on this forum these days.

I was relieved to see you'd liked my horsesh!t. :o