Republic of Ireland V Turkey, Italy, Costa Rica & Portugal - May/June 2014

[pineapple stu]

We're going to drop down to 440 points, the FIFA rankings page says. That'd be 77th, but there's other teams' results to come in as well. El Salvador are going to lose half their points apparently, going from 481 to 234. Must have had a good tournament this time last year that's getting written down. Bolivis will drop below us as well.

But not sure why people are paying so much attention to the world rankings when they're usually ridiculed?

There were positives from the Portugal game; our defence being a shambles was unfortunate but fixable as has been noted. In midfield in particular, we've shown a big improvement on recent years. No point ignoring that.

[paul_oshea]

You're right as always Paul. The whole thing was a disaster. O'Neill will have learnt nothing and will not have benefitted from spending a long time with the players, nor will the players have learnt anything about O'Neill's plans and methods. We have no better players who didn't make the trip. When it comes to playing Georgia we might as well have let the players go to Iboza with their friends and families, and we might as well cancel the Oman friendly too.

I said positive, not learnt. O'neill learning all he wants is a good thing, obviously ensures he selects the correct players and positions come September, or at least we hope it does. We don't know what O'Neill is thinking, he brought on 4 forwards, left 1 proper full back in the second half so for all we know he could have learnt nothing, september will show us that, but the here and now we know that a new partnership/understanding developed between Hendrick and Meyler, and they got a lot of gametime and showed they can work decently, in patches at least, with hoolohan and look to play a fluid passing game.

[Stuttgart88]

Personally, I'm not trying to sugar coat anything and truth be told I'm pretty deflated by the whole thing. But it's also got to be said that we put out a de facto B team against Portugal, with several players starting who probably won't even make the squad in the autumn, let alone the team.

If we had only played the first 3 games I'd be feeling better. Turkey was flat and pretty poor for the most part. Italy was very promising and I hear Costa Rica was good at times, and especially when we had our better players playing late on. The reality is that the FAI chased money by going to the US. A two game trip to Europe would have been far better.

I'd like to see more signs of organisation even among the lesser players and I've yet to see it. We don't defend corners well and we have given away goals when a defender hadn't held the same line as the rest of the defence (Coleman and Wilson). My understanding is that at Sunderland O'Neill relied on a lot of goals from outside the box during his best spell of results but when these dried up the results dried up. I have a fear that O'Neill's best days may be behind him but none of us knows. Jack's first year in charge was pretty poor all round and only the kind of luck that we'd never had before got us through (Belgian keeper brain fart in Brussels, Gary Mackay...). We even had to come from behind to beat Luxembourg 2-1 in Dublin and drew at home to both Belgium and Scotland. I'm not sure an Irish manager would survive those results these days.

And didn't Mick go 6 games before getting a win? He had to do a lot of chopping and changing and experimentation before arriving at something that worked pretty well for the most part. People appreciated that it was WIP and cut him some slack.

[Closed Account 2]

But not sure why people are paying so much attention to the world rankings when they're usually ridiculed?



The trouble is, as bad as the methodology is, world and european rankings are used when it comes to seeding for groupings in qualification. If you are high in the rankings you are more likely to get a kind draw (such as Norway did a few years ago), but if you slip down them you are more likely to get a hard draw. And there is a danger of it becoming a virtuous circle, your ranking is bad so you get a hard draw, the hard draw means you have less "winnable" games and so you cant get back up the rankings and you end up stuck in a rut.

[Closed Account 2]

And didn't Mick go 6 games before getting a win? He had to do a lot of chopping and changing and experimentation before arriving at something that worked pretty well for the most part. People appreciated that it was WIP and cut him some slack.

Seven in fact:

Dublin Russia 0-2
Prague Czech Republic 0-2
Dublin Portugal 0-1
Dublin Croatia 2-2
Rotterdam Netherlands 1-3
Boston United States 1-2
New Jersey Mexico 2-2

Although when you look at the results in the context of how well some of those teams did / were doing at the time, only really the Russia and USA matches stick out.

[geysir]

Of course there were positives from the game, it's not sugarcoating to note the positives, amongst the chaos created by the mistakes from a barely 2nd string back 4 and O'Neill's substitutions.
The positives of what O'Neill has been trying will stand to us much better in the qualifiers. The negatives are repairable.
NI travelled all the way across to Chile to park the bus, what would we have learnt by parking the bus to prevent a defeat against a classy team in a pre WC friendly? At least we travelled the distance to play a game that will stand us in good stead later in the games that matter.

We use to hoof the ball all the time, why did we hoof it? because we would lose the ball in our half and pay the price. Now we are not hoofing it, but have lost the ball in our own half and paid the price for the first 3 goals against a classy team.
We won't beat Scotland and Poland by playing a hoofball game, or beat them by going a goal up and sitting back, or letting them have the space to play all the football in our home games. We have to play a different game, it takes a bit of practice to reverse habits of a lifetime.

[Gather round]

NI travelled all the way across to Chile to park the bus, what would we have learnt by parking the bus to prevent a defeat against a classy team in a pre WC friendly?

We (NI) learnt in the two games in South America that a couple of inexperienced youngsters aren't fazed by international football. We already know that many of our more experienced are nearing retirement or not committed to turning up, so that small benefit is worthwhile.

Whereas your ambitions are higher, to beat teams like Turkey and Portugal regularly. Even with a weakened side in a friendly, there must be some value in a narrow defeat rather than a rugby score conceded against such opposition.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not sure our ambitions are so deluded as to be aspiring to beat Portugal regularly! Staying ahead of NI is more like it.

I'd agree with you in the main though. Positives can be taken even when you have to go looking for them. I'm very hopeful that Craven Cottage was more representative of what we're really like than NJ.

[mark12345]

Of course there were positives from the game, it's not sugarcoating to note the positives, amongst the chaos created by the mistakes from a barely 2nd string back 4 and O'Neill's substitutions.
The positives of what O'Neill has been trying will stand to us much better in the qualifiers. The negatives are repairable.
NI travelled all the way across to Chile to park the bus, what would we have learnt by parking the bus to prevent a defeat against a classy team in a pre WC friendly? At least we travelled the distance to play a game that will stand us in good stead later in the games that matter.

We use to hoof the ball all the time, why did we hoof it? because we would lose the ball in our half and pay the price. Now we are not hoofing it, but have lost the ball in our own half and paid the price for the first 3 goals against a classy team.
We won't beat Scotland and Poland by playing a hoofball game, or beat them by going a goal up and sitting back, or letting them have the space to play all the football in our home games. We have to play a different game, it takes a bit of practice to reverse habits of a lifetime.

Very, very well said.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Why are people getting so worked up about slipping down the rankings? We were seeded second in the Euro 2016 draw and got a nightmare of a group. If we are ranked third or fourth we could end up getting an easier group down the line.

Bottom line, we are going to have to start beating half decent teams soon or we won't qualify for anything. It's over three qualifying campaigns since we even beat a team on Scotland's level.

Euro 2012 was an anomaly. It's not often that a team bumbles their way to qualification without beating a direct rival.

[SwanVsDalton]

Jack's first year in charge was pretty poor all round and only the kind of luck that we'd never had before got us through (Belgian keeper brain fart in Brussels, Gary Mackay...). We even had to come from behind to beat Luxembourg 2-1 in Dublin and drew at home to both Belgium and Scotland. I'm not sure an Irish manager would survive those results these days.

And didn't Mick go 6 games before getting a win? He had to do a lot of chopping and changing and experimentation before arriving at something that worked pretty well for the most part. People appreciated that it was WIP and cut him some slack.

Couple of key pars there. This process was always going to be very painful. Who knows what will happen with O'Neill, but the truth is the squad needs shaken up, the system torn up and all under a manager completely new to international football.

No one said it was going to be easy.

[paul_oshea]

Of course there were positives from the game, it's not sugarcoating to note the positives, amongst the chaos created by the mistakes from a barely 2nd string back 4 and O'Neill's substitutions.
The positives of what O'Neill has been trying will stand to us much better in the qualifiers. The negatives are repairable.
NI travelled all the way across to Chile to park the bus, what would we have learnt by parking the bus to prevent a defeat against a classy team in a pre WC friendly? At least we travelled the distance to play a game that will stand us in good stead later in the games that matter.

We use to hoof the ball all the time, why did we hoof it? because we would lose the ball in our half and pay the price. Now we are not hoofing it, but have lost the ball in our own half and paid the price for the first 3 goals against a classy team.
We won't beat Scotland and Poland by playing a hoofball game, or beat them by going a goal up and sitting back, or letting them have the space to play all the football in our home games. We have to play a different game, it takes a bit of practice to reverse habits of a lifetime.

I agree with most of that, but it takes more than just practice it takes player ability too. We all look fine collectively passing it around in our own half under little pressure, but the full backs and Centre backs don't seem to enjoy those tight spaces and or wingers aren't expert at it either.

Wilson is a ball player and coleman is a ball player, wilson especially when he is in the centre, but the others arent, and you need full backs who go forward to be comfortable with that. I don't really think too much of McClean and think he has progressively got worse for us, I also don't think he is completely comfortable with that kinda tight passing, turning and triangular passing. We have hoolahan in the middle who definitely is, hendrick and meyler both showed an ability to turn into the space(you know the space that doesnt exist in whelans head) and also let the ball run by them into the space from a pass, instead of stopping, trying to control the ball and then make a sideways or backwards pass. Overall id say we have 3/4 players of 11 who are comfortable-good playing this game, but the rest I don't really believe are. Where is that video of spain playing really tight passes with the tiny goals, they look awesome, we probably dont even do that in training! I still cant quite fathom how our players cant play that game, how its not coached and how they dont practice it in training, or maybe they do and aren't very good at it.

[DeLorean]

Remember when McClean got that standing ovation at Lansdowne... Jayney.

[SwanVsDalton]

Remember when McClean got that standing ovation at Lansdowne... Jayney.

That was a Trap protest standing ovation. Less to do with McClean and everything to do with the perception of a player getting shunned in classic Trap stylee.


Where is that video of spain playing really tight passes with the tiny goals, they look awesome, we probably dont even do that in training! I still cant quite fathom how our players cant play that game, how its not coached and how they dont practice it in training, or maybe they do and aren't very good at it.

Can't see them being very good at it. There's only a handful of teams in the world that are.

[DeLorean]

That was a Trap protest standing ovation. Less to do with McClean and everything to do with the perception of a player getting shunned in classic Trap stylee.

Well yeah, it was because this prodigy had finally gained the recognition he deserved, having burst on the scene a full two months earlier.

[Stuttgart88]

And of course they practice it. All teams do. I commented years ago that I saw Sunderland v QPR doing that exercise pre-match at QPR. Kavanagh and Elliott were brilliant at it. Surprisingly, Miller was dreadful. There was a video of Ireland doing similar in their Polish training camp in 2012. We moved it around beautifully.

Of our XI I'd say Coleman, Wilson, McCarthy and Gibson have no problem moving it around well. Hoolahan can do it, plus more. Meyler and Hendrick both seem comfortable doing what O'Neill wants and I really think McGeady looks reborn under O'Neill. Brady and Pilkington are both ball players and while McClean is primitive, he does have something that could threaten the group teams bar Germany. It was he who set up Quinn on a plate against Italy, no?

O'Neill also wants a midfielder to be able to carry the ball too, not just quick passing. This is a taller order for some of our players.

I don't expect perfectly fluent football but I do hope to see us using it better than in recent years and I think it's what we need to do but there'll always be a primitive component to our play.

I think expecting us to be Spain all of a sudden is stretching it!

[SwanVsDalton]

while McClean is primitive, he does have something that could threaten the group teams bar Germany. It was he who set up Quinn on a plate against Italy, no?

Set up Quinn and just moment before crossed for McGeady's free header. McClean's decision making remains poor, his crossing is ludicrously hit and miss, but he has more attacking intent than most in our squad and preoccupies defenders.

[DeLorean]

He should be useful as a Stephen Hunt type impact player but I think we have better players to start. Walters could also be a very useful sub option and I hope that's what he is.

[paul_oshea]

I'm not expecting us to be spain but all the teams we play against, i was going to say at our own level but i havent seen el salvador ; ), who are a 3rd seed or above in the european/continent can do it. Even costa rica looked like they could control it better than us. We should still be able do it at a level that is on a par with other nations, but we can't even do that. I wanted to ask that question to oneill and keane the last day but i was more concenred around the psyhcological aspect of his management.

Oh stutts, i thought you were listening very intentively, especially when your hero John Delaney was talking as you asked me to shutup as i was interuppting you from listening to his insightful speech. But what oneill was saying and keane to a lesser extent was that robbie is at the age now where we can't rely on him as much and he doesn't have the legs to play the lone man anymore or hold up like say long, i also want to remind them he was only 33 but let them away with the 34/35 thing. He specifically mentioned that he would give him 1 full game and some time in and another game. He also mentioned that wes was also a player who arrived late on the scene and doesn't have an awful lot of time left - or something to that effect.

I reckon long gets the nod for big games against the likes of germany away and keane is sprung from the bench, who knows maybe even doyle.

[Stuttgart88]

Paul you were talking incessantly during everything until I told you to shut up!

And yes, that's what I thought they said alright. It was alarming that they didn't know Keane's age. After the last few games if they think Wes hasn't got the legs anymore then we can give up.

[paul_oshea]

No I was given some home truths about what he was saying. It was only during delaney. He always makes it into his own little show.

Ya i was surprised and shocked at that, supporters knowing more than them on a few things.

I'm getting awful depressed with this world cup fever and no ireland there. :(

[Stuttgart88]

No I was given some home truths about what he was saying. It was only during delaney.
He was first up. I told you to shut up and you did. That's why you were quiet during everything else. :)

[ken foree]

Paul if you're looking for positives during the recent spare of matches perhaps I can offer: for the first time in ages we actually looked as fit as the opposition and had what appeared to be real pace throughout the team, ward/mcclean/walters excepted.

[Stuttgart88]

Good to see ken back posting regularly again.

[paul_oshea]

He was first up. I told you to shut up and you did. That's why you were quiet during everything else. :)

No, the sky guy was.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Let's take a moment to remember our fallen comrades.

Colbert Report
Kingdom
Murfinator
Worm

Gone but not forgotten.

[paul_oshea]

How do you remember all those TOWK?

I hope mypost is gone, and can most certainly be forgotten, he had no clue whatsoever about football.

[ken foree]

Hey thanks stutts! - had a son who's nearly five now so an enforced hiatus of all things foot.ie for quite some time!

[ken foree]

Eirebhoy - truly gone truly not forgotten :(

[OwlsFan]

I understand that only three times have we conceded 5 or more goals since 1982: Germany, Cyprus and Brazil (1982). That is the measurement of the hammering by Portugal.

The embarrassing standing ovation for McLean as far as I recall had little to do with Trap but a Nordie declaring for us.

It is not an anomaly, TheOneWhoKnocks, for a team to qualify when it goes a campaign unbeaten away from home. How come you remember those not contributing any more? What was your former name?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Not sure what you are trying to imply but I was a lurker. Never heard of them before, no?

And when you look back at threads, those names - and their reasonably high post counts - pop up a lot so it's strange for them to fall off the precipice as it were.

I know why Worm left but I don't know about the others.

[Stuttgart88]

I think it was genuinely an anomaly to do so well away yet so badly at home!

I think our points per game totals were lower than usually would secure second place.

[Stuttgart88]

No, the sky guy was.
He was the compere. Delaney was the first proper speaker, or put another way, the first guy I was interested in listening to. I can listen to you anytime. I usually choose not to though :)

[peadar1987]

How do you remember all those TOWK?

I hope mypost is gone, and can most certainly be forgotten, he had no clue whatsoever about football.

But he had an invaluable knowledge of Dublin's public transport network.

[DeLorean]

I think it was genuinely an anomaly to do so well away yet so badly at home!

The results were basically the same at home as they were away from home. Our performances were better away from home because teams were more inclined to come on to us, whereas at Lansdowne it was generally just a stand-off between two pretty unambitious teams. An anomaly, yes... but an understandable one.

[Charlie Darwin]

El Salvador looked pretty good against Ivory Coast last week. Really should have snook a draw.

It strikes me that a player like McClean might be a bit redundant for Ireland. If we're playing overlapping full backs we probably don't need wingers, as apart from Bayern Munich I can't really think of any big side who play with attacking full backs and wingers. I like the idea of having Hendrick ahead of Coleman and McGeady on the other side - two guys who'd be comfortable coming inside and allowing the overlapping full back to do his job, but also able to do the defensive job.

[Stuttgart88]

I guess the anomaly is that Trap's away record was the best of any Irish manager ever, but his home record was the worst. The results may have been the same - in fact a fraction better away because of Moscow and Sweden at home - but ultimately it shows the limitation of being hard to beat. Hard to beat must be the minimum.

OwlsFan, nobody denies show crap Tuesdays performance was and how chaotic the shape of the team was towards the end. The only thing being disputed is how significant the hammering was. The glass half full approach would be to say hopefully not very significant because it's all WIP and we'll never pick an all tier 2 back 5 again.

[Charlie Darwin]

The embarrassing standing ovation for McLean as far as I recall had little to do with Trap but a Nordie declaring for us.
What? It most certainly did not have anything to do with his background. He was a good player who had burst on the scene and most people wanted to see him on the pitch, end of.

[Grafter]

Wasn't Conor Sammon in the squad for the 4 games? Where did he get to? Injured?

[Charlie Darwin]

He came on against Italy then missed the US games to get married. No commitment (except to his wife).

[pineapple stu]

The trouble is, as bad as the methodology is, world and european rankings are used when it comes to seeding for groupings in qualification. If you are high in the rankings you are more likely to get a kind draw (such as Norway did a few years ago), but if you slip down them you are more likely to get a hard draw. And there is a danger of it becoming a virtuous circle, your ranking is bad so you get a hard draw, the hard draw means you have less "winnable" games and so you cant get back up the rankings and you end up stuck in a rut.
Are they not still done on the basis of points average per qualifying tournament? (I know the play-offs are done by world ranking alright)

Anyways, there's 18 months to go and lots of points to be earned in qualifying games, which would quickly drown out a few friendly defeats.

Slipping to fourth seed is an obvious concern of course.

[Stuttgart88]

Are they not still done on the basis of points average per qualifying tournament? (I know the play-offs are done by world ranking alright)

Anyways, there's 18 months to go and lots of points to be earned in qualifying games, which would quickly drown out a few friendly defeats.

Slipping to fourth seed is an obvious concern of course.the seedingfor the European qualification groups for the 2014 World Cup was made on basis of FIFA rankings as at 2011

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/01/44/46/23/2014fwc_drawprocedures_europe_en.pdf

[Closed Account 2]

I don't think it's been set in stone yet as to how they will set it, but it for the 2014 qualification it seems they used the July 2011 World Ranking:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA)#Seeding

Based on that it might be our World Ranking as at this time next year which is used. The draw seems to take place on the 25th July in Leningrad (I think they brought forward the draw for WC2014 and did a big draw for all confederations on the same day in Rio, which meant UEFA teams had rankings taken before the full Euro 2012 qualification was complete, which seemed to benefit Norway due to them playing their difficult Euro 2012 qualifiers at the end of the calender and so these were not on their seedings).

If this is the case we are in a spot of bother as 71 in the World Rankings would put us in pot 5 (if we project this back onto the WC2014 seedings, we would be below Armenia and above Finland). I dont think we will end up in pot 5 (our ranking should pick up slightly and also there are more non-UEFA teams padding out the upper rankings now) but pot 4 seems fairly likely. We have the following games between now and then to improve:

(h) *Oman
(a) *Georgia
(h) *Gibraltar
(a) *Germany
(a) *Scotland
(h) *Poland
__________________ Will Count to WC2018 ranking
(h) *England
(h) *Scotland
___________________ Might count
(a) *Gibraltar
(h) *Georgia
(h) *Germany
(a) *Poland
___________________ Won't Count for WC2018

Should we make 3rd place for 2016 qualification (and assuming we arent the "best" 3rd place) then all of those games upto and including Poland away will affect our ranking prior to the draw for those playoffs.

[pineapple stu]

That's all fair enough so; thanks.

[Closed Account 2]

To be honest it's a pain we couldnt swap the home and aways of Germany. I don't see us winning in the Ruhr or if im honest even getting a point (even if the ghost of Ernst Happel was in charge of us), but there is a chance we could get a point at home to Germany if we were lucky which could have given us a boost in terms of ranking (to say nothing of morale) ahead of the WC2018 draw.

[Charlie Darwin]

My scientific analysis of the World Cup campaign has yielded compelling evidence that we have a better chance of getting a result against the Germans in Germany than in Ireland.

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting words from O'Neill here

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/international/2014/0611/623216-forde-focuses-on-euro-2016-campaign/


My interpretation is that he wanted to look at players even if it's to show they're not good enough. Some showed just that.

He says some spots are still up for grabs. I'd say that's left back, which may necessitate a change to centre back, one central midfield spot, one wide spot and the centre forward spot. Maybe keeper too.

He says the squad options aren't huge, but one or two changes are possible. I think there's more than that. McCarthy is certain to return. Other additions from the summer tour could (should) be Andy Reid, Stephen Nobhead, SSL, McGoldrick, O'Brien, Gibson, Brady, Clark, Stokes and maybe Given as a wild card? Realistically, all of these bar Given would be a shoo in if fit, notwithstanding the Stephen Ireland situation. Maybe McShane over Pearce.

Who's at risk of those who turned up in May/June? I'd say Kelly, Ward, Pearse, Keogh, Cox, Sammon and Green.

If O'Neill only decides to play one up front he may not choose 5 forwards. Long and Doyle should be certainties. That makes two from Walters, Stokes and Keane. That'd be an interesting call!

I think Quinn might keep his place.

I think O'Neill likes Ward regardless of the Portugal showing but let's see.

[OwlsFan]

What? It most certainly did not have anything to do with his background. He was a good player who had burst on the scene and most people wanted to see him on the pitch, end of.

And every debutant gets a standing ovation? No but I think McGeady got a similar one. Spot the link? End of..

Stutts, not every one is denying how crap Tuesday's performance was. One contributor said it was "brilliant" in parts. The only point I am making is because of the hostility generated in many sections towards Trap (rightly or wrongly), the current management is being given a lot of leeway. Stan for example would have been laughed out of the place if he had 4 centre forwards on at the end of a game. However, what's done is done and as we all agree all that really matters (excluding rating points and the historical record) is how we get on in the competitive games.

It will be fascinating to see how O'Neill sets up the team for the away game in Georgia. 4-4-2 worked away from home under he who dare not be mentioned (but not at home). Interesting times.

[Charlie Darwin]

Who's at risk of those who turned up in May/June? I'd say Kelly, Ward, Pearse, Keogh, Cox, Sammon and Green.
I think you're seeing what you want to see with respect to left-back. Like you, I think O'Neill just likes Ward. He's an average enough defender but he can get up and down all day which gives us balance as Coleman does the same on the opposite flank.

As for the named players being at risk - at risk of what? Apart from Ward, I wouldn't have thought any of them were guaranteed squad members to begin with, so losing out wouldn't necessarily be a huge chance from normal.


And every debutant gets a standing ovation? No but I think McGeady got a similar one. Spot the link? End of..
Clinton Morrison got one too but it was apropos of nothing other than he was a talented player doing well and the fans wanted to see him on the pitch. There was some controversy when he was left out of the initial squad and elation when got a chance to come on and make his case for inclusion in the Euro squad a few days later. It was as much relief he was getting a run-out as anything.

[Stuttgart88]

I suppose my point related to O'Neill's comment that he can't just magic up players to improve a squad that lacks depth. My point is that those I mentioned should all be expected to make way for the others I selected, and in my opinion the squad would actually be materially enhanced. I'd prefer O'Neill to have highlighted how many decent players were missing rather than playing the an beal bocht card.