Winsor Park and a tri-colour

[lopez]

Yeah, but surely they were doing Portadown, Crues or anyother club with a large section of Unionist support no favours either by giving Linfield two extra home games a year. Is it really because Linfield are the establishment club or was there any 'logical' reason given by the IFA for their action?There is a slight difference here as it wasn't the IFA that were in charge of deciding where fixtures would be played (unless they were cup games) but the IL. As you point out you can't just spin the old 'bigots' line on this as other 'loyalist' clubs continued to play at Cliftonville. Perhaps, as DG claimed earlier in another thread, and you put in a nutshell, Linfield are NI's establishment club, getting unfair advantage, no matter what the religion of the club they are playing are.

[gspain]

There is a slight difference here as it wasn't the IFA that were in charge of deciding where fixtures would be played (unless they were cup games) but the IL. As you point out you can't just spin the old 'bigots' line on this as other 'loyalist' clubs continued to play at Cliftonville. Perhaps, as DG claimed earlier in another thread, and you put in a nutshell, Linfield are NI's establishment club, getting unfair advantage, no matter what the religion of the club they are playing are.

It was the RUC not the league or IFA that stopped Linfield playing at Solitude. The police quoted security concerns.

Linfield are/were the establishment club usual complaints from other fans re referee bias etc but ditto for Shamrock Rovers up until recently.

The club are certainly not sectarian now and have had many RC players indeed fielded mor erCs than Prods v Ballymena in August 94.

[Pat O' Banton]

It was the RUC not the league or IFA that stopped Linfield playing at Solitude. The police quoted security concerns.

Linfield are/were the establishment club usual complaints from other fans re referee bias etc but ditto for Shamrock Rovers up until recently.

The club are certainly not sectarian now and have had many RC players indeed fielded mor erCs than Prods v Ballymena in August 94.

I had heard that this was the reason but was still curious why other sides (particularly Portadawn after their 'fans' stoned the Cliftonville Buses in 1996/1997[?]) were less of a security concern to the police than Linfield fans would be.

(BTW was at first Cliftonville match a couple of weeks back and the general standard of refing seem awful)

[gspain]

I had heard that this was the reason but was still curious why other sides (particularly Portadawn after their 'fans' stoned the Cliftonville Buses in 1996/1997[?]) were less of a security concern to the police than Linfield fans would be.

(BTW was at first Cliftonville match a couple of weeks back and the general standard of refing seem awful)

Bad blood between Cliftonville and Portadown back into the 80's if not before. However you would have killed the club if you started banning other teams.

Agreed the general standard of refereeing in the Irish League is awful - apart from the 1st division here the worst I've seen. :D

[Pat O' Banton]

Bad blood between Cliftonville and Portadown back into the 80's if not before. However you would have killed the club if you started banning other teams.

Agreed the general standard of refereeing in the Irish League is awful - apart from the 1st division here the worst I've seen. :D

Then again the ref seemed at least to spot potential leg break tackles (even if he seemed not to think that potentially putting someone out of the game for months warrented a yellow card) unlike Mike Riely and his linesman the following day at Old Trafford -yes the ManUre Arsenal game and yes I am still bitter!

[lopez]

The ironic thing about Northern knuckle heads
waving a Union Jack is that the failed political entity
that is the North. is not respresented on the flag and
our Patron Saint is.You'll be surprised how some of Unionists will argue that the St Pat's Cross (I prefer the Fitzgerald Saltire) represents them. Personally I couldn't care less what does. The Rainbow flag in honour of their hero on the white horse perhaps? The supporters of two Scottish League clubs heavily display Irish flags in what is a foreign league. People should accept any Northern club with large unionist support their right to do likewise. You'll soon find that any w*nkers not there for the footy will drift away back to unlawful orange marches, drugdealing, UB40 concerts and watching football in Govan while the true supporters of someone like Linfield will be left to follow their club in a civilised manner.

BTW, not that you'll find too many Unionists at any Northern St pat's parades. Too many tricolours for them which they also argue are unrepresentative of them. And of course they're right. Peace between Catholic and Protestant is something totally alien to this type of Northern citizen. :p

[Pat O' Banton]

Now that was always a dodgy thing in my book. I still can't understand why the Cliftonville home games against Linfield had to be moved to Battenburg Park, I mean if they couldn't play them at home, for whatever the reasons given, why weren't the games moved to a neutral venue. In effect Linfield were given an advantage firstly over Cliftonville by never having to play them away then secondly over the rest of the league by having two extra home games. Anyone know the IFA's reasoning for this?

There is an answer (admitedly with a Cliftonville slant) given here http://www.geocities.com/theredgazette/main , click on paronia.

[hudhastings]

i think there would be a little unrest if a lot of Union flags appeared at the cross


remember the booing of god save the queen at the u19 international a few week ago!


God save the quenn and the facist regeme.
what a song,

[MikeNI]

The ironic thing about Northern knuckle heads
waving a Union Jack is that the failed political entity
that is the North. is not respresented on the flag and
our Patron Saint is.

The Union Jack is comprised of the flags of St Patrick, St Andrew,
and Saint George all intermingled.

And ironically again Northern Unionists are represented
on the Irish tri-color via the Orange band band, white being
for peace, and green for us leprechauns.

So they swear allegience to a flag which does no acknowledge them
and spit at a flag which does.

has the flags and emblems act in the North passed by anal retentive unionists
which banned the flying of the tri-color (which recognises them) being rescinded under the terms of the good Friday aggreement?

Samuel old son, if you want to go on a rant about 'Northern knuckle heads' the least you could do is get even a basic grasp of the allegiances and identites of people in NI.

Saying that the St Patrick's Cross does not represent NI Unionsts is just plain wrong.

And for all your attacks on Unionists for rejecting the Tricolour even though it has an orange band, nationalists too reject the Union Flag even though the St Patricks cross was included to represent Ireland.

And finally, the Flags and Emblems Act was gone long before the Good Friday Agreement.

[MikeNI]

Yes,but the 'Butcher's apron' is a flag of occupation,representative of an archaic concept;How is the Tricolour?

Even if I accept what you say, which I don't, how has that got anything to do with what I said in the first place? :confused:

[MikeNI]

You posted a response trying to belittle Samuel's comments......

I don't need to belittle Samuel comments - they do that job pefectly well on their own. He tries to belittle the identity of NI Uninists by callign anyone whose allegiance is to the Union Flag a 'knuckle head' then goes on to demonstrate he has completely failed to grasp the 'identity' issue.



not trying to attack you personally, :rolleyes: but you're obviously not understanding why the UJ is so offensive,FFS!

I do understand why nationalists would find it offensive. Just as many unionists might find the Tricolour offensive for their own reasons. However I think that a a bit of respect for other people's allegiances and identities would go a long way.

[ShelsTim]

Ah, good ol' peace and reconciliation, eh?

Just for personal knowledge which teams are safe to bring the tricolour to and which are not. Are Cliftonville the only catholic/nationalist team up North. Forgive my ignorance of my country.

[MikeNI]

Ah, good ol' peace and reconciliation, eh?

Just for personal knowledge which teams are safe to bring the tricolour to and which are not. Are Cliftonville the only catholic/nationalist team up North. Forgive my ignorance of my country.

To qualify it a bit, Cliftonville are the only club with a significant support which is also seen as predominantly Catholic/nationalist.

I wouldn't think you'd have much problem taking a tricolour to the away end at Windsor or the Oval. Of the other teams that actually have many fans these days and you could actually play in the Setanta Cup over the next few years, that leaves Portadown and Coleraine - both might be seen as a bit 'dodgy' but to be honest I wouldn't think most would be too bothered about Shels fans coming up with a tricolour.

[WindmillWarrior]

I don't need to belittle Samuel comments - they do that job pefectly well on their own. He tries to belittle the identity of NI Uninists by callign anyone whose allegiance is to the Union Flag a 'knuckle head' then goes on to demonstrate he has completely failed to grasp the 'identity' issue.



I do understand why nationalists would find it offensive. Just as many unionists might find the Tricolour offensive for their own reasons. However I think that a a bit of respect for other people's allegiances and identities would go a long way.

Very well said mate. Sums it up nicely.

[Troy.McClure]

Samuel old son, if you want to go on a rant about 'Northern knuckle heads' the least you could do is get even a basic grasp of the allegiances and identites of people in NI.

Saying that the St Patrick's Cross does not represent NI Unionsts is just plain wrong.

And for all your attacks on Unionists for rejecting the Tricolour even though it has an orange band, nationalists too reject the Union Flag even though the St Patricks cross was included to represent Ireland.

And finally, the Flags and Emblems Act was gone long before the Good Friday Agreement.

Where are people finding a problem with this? Just common knowledge as far as I can see.

To be honest I dont see why people are getting so wound up. Fair enough most southerners have concerns about bringing a tri colour to the north as extreamests are not uncommon there but why should people be so wound up over a union jack at a football match in Ireland? Havent people moved on yet? How people in Ireland have no problem buying Man U or Arsenal shirts or traveling accross the sea to watch them play and get up tight about british people waving union jacks confuses me.


Flynninio

if linfield come to the cross there will be war.these cnuts are just biggots who will wreak havoc.and i doubt the cork crowd will stand for it. i for one will not accept there orange *******s trying it on.

1) How many Linfield fans have you ever met and how did they come accross as biggoted?
2) How many games have you been to in the north?
3) Why will there be war at the X?
4) Why do you doubt that the Cork corwd will 'stand for it'
5) Have you ever heard of Dunfield?

[rebelcorkbhoy]

i cant believe that someone has just asked a question why does someone else think linfield are bigots. there fans are one third of the blues brothers. them the rangers casuals and the chelsea headhunters. just visit the headhunters site and you will see the connection between the 3 and how much they hate the irish. linfield are also the non biggoted team who play rangers every year in a friendly (loyalist celebration) where a loyalist flute band play triumphantly before the game. not bigots me ******

[A face]

Dont have time to read through all of this but i'll have a shot off this one


i cant believe that someone has just asked a question why does someone else think linfield are bigots.

What do you mean you cant believe, what is wrong with asking ... and contesting what make be wrong or a sweeping gereralisation.

Can we not do that now .... are you not prepared to have someone question anything that might go against what you have made you mind up on already.


there fans are one third of the blues brothers. them the rangers casuals and the chelsea headhunters. just visit the headhunters site and you will see the connection between the 3 and how much they hate the irish.

Come here ... step back a while now and think about that ..... Are ALL Linfield fans like that. You are going to get a couple of fools everywhere .. and there just happen to be 3 sets of like minded fools in contact (at least you claim this anyway) .... so you tar them all with the one brush.

Think about it ..... these fools dont even support the game.

One thing about you argument .... you dont appear at all open minded, and you'd have to question that. Anyone with a sense would have to question it.


linfield are also the non biggoted team who play rangers every year in a friendly (loyalist celebration) where a loyalist flute band play triumphantly before the game. not bigots me ******

Ah ... hello ... Ireland are playing Celtic soon in a friendly .... how is that looked upon ??? Is that also going to be deemed biggoted ???

Cork City play Lausanne a few years ago at the cross and there was a pipeband there playing triumphantly before the game ..... Are we deemed biggots now ???


Hold back a while head ... and dont be reading into all you hear at all

And the other bloke what asked would "City fans stand for it" ..... Where are you going fella ... where in gods name do you think you are. What in gods name gives you the idea that you dont have to behave in public, act that **** all for the sake of Cork City .... If you start trouble or anyone like ya starts trouble ... then you should get banned for life. It is muppets like you that will give the Setanta cup a bad name.

[lopez]

...what is wrong with asking ... and contesting what make be wrong or a sweeping gereralisation. Can we not do that now .... are you not prepared to have someone question anything that might go against what you have made you mind up on already.
:confused:

You are going to get a couple of fools everywhere .. and there just happen to be 3 sets of like minded fools in contact (at least you claim this anyway) .... so you tar them all with the one brush.
:confused: :confused:

One thing about you argument .... you dont appear at all open minded, and you'd have to question that. Anyone with a sense would have to question it.
LOL. From the poster who sweepingly describes ALL 'Sell-Thick' fans as muppets and Brits.

Ah ... hello ... Ireland are playing Celtic soon in a friendly .... how is that looked upon ??? Is that also going to be deemed biggoted ???
That's it my son. Don't forget to mention your favourite British club. :rolleyes:

Rebelcorkbhoy: Linfield used to play Shamrock Rovers quite a lot in pre season friendlies during the summer in the nineties. That hardly makes the club sectarian although their practice of not signing Catholics in the eighties and before was. Celtic play Rangers four times a year - they played them four times a year even when they also refused to sign Catholics (which, call me a cynic, was to Celtic's advantage) - and took an allocation for supporters (thus lining the pockets of this 'sectarian' club with Catholic money).

An A*se: Good post. Just try following some of your own advice! :p

[rebelcorkbhoy]

lopez me oul buddy who brought celtic in to this. i only posted that linfield are a bunch of loalist bigots. btw a face you are a clown. ireland are playing celtic in a testomonial game. can you imagine the uproar if the wolf tones were to play pitchside before during and after. starting with go on home british soldiers. but you reckon its all right for linfield to do this with rangers every year cause celtic are playing ireland in a friendly. wipe your mouth your talking sh*t

[A face]

btw a face you are a clown. ireland are playing celtic in a testomonial game.

So ... that does take from my point !! :rolleyes:


you reckon its all right for linfield to do this with rangers every year cause celtic are playing ireland in a friendly. wipe your mouth your talking sh*t


They can do what ever the fcuk they want .... why shouldn't they, why should it upset you so much ..... for something you have so little regards for ... you seem to get really worked up about it. How does it impact on you exactly.

For what its worth ... i see the point you are trying to make, but view it in a different way. You and others of the same mind-set will not look at the whole picture or at least try and be objective about it. (i am not singling you out on your own, just making a point)

[Plastic Paddy]

Oh the sheer delicious irony of you berating someone else for holding a narrow view of one team's supporters without regard for the diversity within. I can hardly type for laughing at you. Sheer ****ing poetry, son. Beautiful. :D :D :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: PP

[Plastic Paddy]

I wasn't responding to you Sammy, old son, but since you've posted this, I feel I have to.


Diversity my ********-narrow sectarian views should be encouraged. Take the Old Firm-they talk about stamping out sectarianism-but if it wasn't for the fact that they hate each other and look on matches betwwen Celtic and Rangers as an affirmation of their superiority (if the win) then there would be no-one going to the matches

Utter, utter nonsense. Both the opinion you express and the judgement you draw are so wide of the mark it's almost funny. "Narrow sectarian views should be encouraged". Post of the week. Given contributions elsewhere, that's quite an accolade. "There would be no-one going to the matches". Garbage. OF league games account for selling the best part of a quarter of a million seats a year combined, and that's without the cup matches. You cannot seriously be suggesting that any more than a small minority go to the games because of their deep-seated hatred of the oppposition? Most - believe this or not - simply go to watch a passionate football match. It might not have occurred to you that for many supporters, of both Celtic and Rangers alike, view this as a city derby. Nothing more. And that's despite what the media would like us to believe.


the question we should be asking is why testemonials are allowed for players that have been extremly well paid for their limited talents. The concept of testemonials was first introduced when pro players in Britain were on just above the minimum industrial wage. These days we have millionaires quing up to stick their snouts in the trough one last time-its obscene.

Credit where it's due. I agree wholeheartedly with this point in respect of Premiership footballers. Those lower down the food chain may actually derive real benefit from such recognition, but for those at the top, it reeks of exploitation. Niall Quinn's action (in donating the take from his game to charity) should have opened the debate on this right up; unfortunately, it's not in the interest of those that ultimately benefit from such fixtures (the unholy trinity of players, agents and sponsors) to follow his lead.

:D PP

[lopez]

lopez me oul buddy who brought celtic in to this.You weren't the one who brought Celtic into it, but you brought Rangers in.

i only posted that linfield are a bunch of loalist bigots.Do Linfield discriminate against Catholics? Are all their supporters members of C Coy.? Can we describe Rangers in such terms instead? In an ideal world Linfield would like to have a fanbase including the bit between the Shankill and the Lisburn Road to choose from, but the world isn't and Linfield doesn't. Being a club with overwhelming if not exclusive unionist support is often beyond the club's control in the 6C when you see streets divided on politico/religious grounds by a mini version of the Berlin Wall. As for this so-called Loyalist love in, so what? Unionists not allowed to watch football now or play against clubs with huge support in the 6C?

[Troy.McClure]

RebelCorkBoy and Flynnio, what are ye're thoughts on Dunfield seeing as ye know so much about Linfield? :confused:

[A face]

RebelCorkBoy and Flynnio, what are ye're thoughts on Dunfield seeing as ye know so much about Linfield? :confused:

Man ... they haven't a frickin' clue ... wasting you time in askng !!



Celtic and Rangers alike, view this as a city derby. Nothing more


Yeah ... and how does the Glasgow City council view it and the social problems incurred as a result :D ...... like a frickin' tea party i suppose. Some of their minutes and related document make interesting reading .... but i'm sure you see that as ... how did you put it again .... utter, utter nonsense


Sure ... tis only a game of ball, who cares what problems are left behind, the tax payer will pick up the tab, no worries !! Everything is just frickin' dandy !! :eek:

[A face]

So small bhoy,Can you enlighten us on Cork Hibs-CELTIC derby games of yore(& whether they passed off peacefully).......I doubt it,on both counts! ;)

If you are referring to me (bhoy??) .....

We'll i wasn't old enough so that is one count excluded ;)

The second ... yeah, no problems, nothing to the point where it devalued the price of housing etc. ;)

[eoinh]

The ironic thing about Northern knuckle heads
waving a Union Jack is that the failed political entity
that is the North. is not respresented on the flag and
our Patron Saint is.

The Union Jack is comprised of the flags of St Patrick, St Andrew,
and Saint George all intermingled.

And ironically again Northern Unionists are represented
on the Irish tri-color via the Orange band band, white being
for peace, and green for us leprechauns.

So they swear allegience to a flag which does no acknowledge them
and spit at a flag which does.

has the flags and emblems act in the North passed by anal retentive unionists
which banned the flying of the tri-color (which recognises them) being rescinded under the terms of the good Friday aggreement?

The flag of St. Patrick was "made up" to fit on the pre-1801 union jack. There was really no flag of St. Patrick that represented Ireland. The flag that is regarded as most representing Ireland was a Harp on a green or blue background. Its actually on the Monarchs standard in Britain. Most Protestants in the North are Presbyterian but up until fairly recently those who held most sway in the North and South before partition tended to be Church of Ireland. For COI members Saint Patrick is as important to them as it is to Roman Catholics, witness the large amount of COI churches and parishs in Ireland (both north and south) called Saint Patricks.

If, hopefully there is a united Ireland sometime in the future im sure deals will be done and comprises will have to be reached. I would wager one thing though. The future flag of Ireland will not be the union jack or the tricolour. The "Harp" may make its return. I could see Amhran na bhFiann being ditched as well with that stupid rugger song being introduced.

[rebelcorkbhoy]

lopez i would still have to say that linfield are a loyalist biggoted club. if they were not why are they playing rangers nearly every year with a flute band and orange men leading both teams out. imagine if city got a pre-season friendly with celtic and lennox booked gerry adams and the wolf tones to lead both sides out. then cork city would be a sectarian club and the people who run would be bigots lennox included. so look at these facts and yes linfield are a bigoted club.

[gspain]

lopez i would still have to say that linfield are a loyalist biggoted club. if they were not why are they playing rangers nearly every year with a flute band and orange men leading both teams out. imagine if city got a pre-season friendly with celtic and lennox booked gerry adams and the wolf tones to lead both sides out. then cork city would be a sectarian club and the people who run would be bigots lennox included. so look at these facts and yes linfield are a bigoted club.

Since the end of WW1 I believe Linfield have met Rangers 5 times

1930
1955
1984
2002
2003

I may have missed 1 or possibly 2 but this hardly constitutes nearly every year. Do you want to list the date sof any other games you know?

I very much doubt that a band in Orange regalia led the teams out at of the last 3. Do you have any source for this?

BTW Bohemians also met Rangers 5 times since the end of WW1 and quite a few times before that too.

[lopez]

lopez i would still have to say that linfield are a loyalist biggoted club. if they were not why are they playing rangers nearly every year with a flute band and orange men leading both teams out. imagine if city got a pre-season friendly with celtic and lennox booked gerry adams and the wolf tones to lead both sides out. then cork city would be a sectarian club and the people who run would be bigots lennox included. so look at these facts and yes linfield are a bigoted club.I'd agree with Gary. I'm no expert on Linfield but I think his list is about right and it hardly suggests an annual tradition. I interviewed Linfield's then chairman David Campbell (ironically on the subject of an all-Ireland football competition) in the nineties for an Irish newspaper in Britain. Together with his enthusiasm for the revival of this competition, he stated that the club had three players from the 26C at the time and southern clubs came up for friendlies and testimonials. I confessed that (in the pre internet days) I hadn't heard much of these games and he stated (truthfully) that they would get publicity in England if there was a riot. There is a whole lot of truth about this because I remember watching the Dundalk v Linfield kick-off in August 1979 on the news and it was the first time I had ever heard of the club.

I find it hard to accept that Linfield play Rangers with a flute band and especially with a troop of the Loyal Orange Order in attendance. A (Scottish) pipe band perhaps, and while this may be construed as narrowly ethnic (as narrowly as Irish dancers at our Amsterdam game with Holland in 2000), I can't see the problem. Even if there is a flute band - Limerick had a loyalist flute band for this years St Patrick's day - I'd ask who was playing (members of the UVF, UDA etc.) and what songs they are playing (The Billy Boys).

If this has ever happened then you must have a newspaper source of it. E.g: The Irish News Online would, I doubt, let this pass (nor would the BT) without comment. As for playing Rangers marking them as sectarian, that's ludicrous.

[rebel army no1]

are city even playing linfield, and if they are where? :eek:

[eoinh]

Unionists would be better off in a United Ireland or an agreed Ireland--at present with the Tory party in Britain virtually unelectable they are sidelined in Westminister because basically their numbers are so small and labour
seems destined to be in a permanent majority-hence no more hung
parliments and the chance to extract concessions. However if there was a United Ireland the Unionist (who wouldn't be Unionist then of course) vote would carry a lot of weight. In fact it would change the political landscape of Ireland. Their natural allies of course would be the fine girl party
Finn Gael- Fianna Fail would probally twin with Sinn Fein, and labour the Sdlp.
Parnell (a protestant) argued all this over a hundred years ago. Unfortunately no one listened and we are left with a border that serves no geographical, cultural, economic, or political purpose.Lord save us if they introduce that pathetic rugby anthem as our offical anthem-elevator music.

Very true

[CollegeTillIDie]

Linfield are not the worst offenders on this island regarding sectarianism by a long chalk. They played Catholic players from the early part of the 20th century right up to the dawn of the troubles. Even during the troubles Catholics worked for the club in administration etc when it was deemed too dangerous for the players concerned to sign them.Roy Coyle broke the mould in 1988 by signing to Two Catholics from North and West Africa respectively,
Moustafa Khamal and Antoine Coly broke the mould. Subsequently, players such as Dessie Gorman and Pat Fenlon played for the club.
So in spite of their supporters antics the club itself has a relatively good record on this issue.

Compare that with another club in the North famous for having players from the Sythe playing for them. Portadown have a former Loyalist terrorist on their board of directors or did up to quite recently if that is no longer the case.

[paudie]

are city even playing linfield, and if they are where? :eek:

Setanta Cup draw not made yet but at least one EL club from City, Shels and Longford will be playing Linfield home and away in it.

[gspain]

I believe Linfield didn't sign any RCs from 1950-1988 - plenty before and plenty since. The club never had any sectarian rules or policies but may well have had an unwritten one.

Portadown have never been a sectarian club and have always had many RC players despite being in a mainly Protestant town. We played them twice in the 80's. Indeed I was at an away game in 1993 and a fan upon hearing my accent introduced himself, we started chatting and he indicated that he was a Catholic and a fan and that the team had always been open. A few months previous albeit due to injuries and suspensions 9 of the 13 players that togged out were RC.

In the height of the troubles in 1972 they also went to Cork to play Hibs in Austin Noonan's testimonial.

The Portadown current officers are listed below

President: Noel Dalzell
Director: Roy McMahon (Chairman)
Director: David Jameson (Vice-Chairman)
Director: Bobby Jameson
Director: Cyril Connolly
Director: Ronnie Stinson
Director: Mark McKinney
Secretary: Lewis Singleton
Treasurer: Trevor Marshall
Commercial Executive: Bill Emerson
Football Community Officer: Steven Wright
Health & Safety Officer: Ronnie Thompson
Chief Steward: John Harvey
Club Chaplain: Rev. Jim Rea

This is public information. Perhaps you'd care to name which one had a Loyalist Terrorist conviction and the nature of the offence and if they are still active in terrorism. Again convictions are public knowledge and public information.

There was a Loyalist terrorist using the Scoial Club as a drinking den with his buddies for some time and the club did have problems in trying to get rid of them.

Irish League football is far from perfect with regards to sectarianism. There have been a number of unfortunate incidents however this has not been promoted by any of the clubs and that is a key distinction. NI has sectarian lunatics in both communities and football is widely played in both communities.





Linfield are not the worst offenders on this island regarding sectarianism by a long chalk. They played Catholic players from the early part of the 20th century right up to the dawn of the troubles. Even during the troubles Catholics worked for the club in administration etc when it was deemed too dangerous for the players concerned to sign them.Roy Coyle broke the mould in 1988 by signing to Two Catholics from North and West Africa respectively,
Moustafa Khamal and Antoine Coly broke the mould. Subsequently, players such as Dessie Gorman and Pat Fenlon played for the club.
So in spite of their supporters antics the club itself has a relatively good record on this issue.

Compare that with another club in the North famous for having players from the Sythe playing for them. Portadown have a former Loyalist terrorist on their board of directors or did up to quite recently if that is no longer the case.

[lopez]

Top post Gary, and the better for using sourced information.

I was at the November 1994 game in WP and I was sttting next to a bloke with his friends/relatives. Unlike those around him he was subdued most of the game (not cheering for NI - but NI fans didn't have much to cheer that night - but not joining in the abuse). I was in the Bot on the Malone Road afterwards and spotted him at the bar and got talking and it turned out he was a Republic fan from Portadown. He also supported Portadown regularly which kind of surprised me. He seemed dismissive of my reaction saying he'd never had any problems at the club and didn't even add that he had to keep his head down or anything like that. To prove the point that it's not all black and white in the IL, I got talking to a friend of a friend who then outside the Bot met this 'loyalist' he knew that 'ran', to use the expression, with the more unsavoury elements of Cliftonville. He was OK, but the two mates he turned up with were on the moody side, almost causing it to kick off when one called the friend of a friend, 'Seamus'.

[lopez]

You're all dreaming lads. Simplification of the highest order. Unionists want to remain British because that is what they are. Being born in Ireland makes no difference no more than being born in Britain does to the 2G. 'Logic' doesn't come into it. If it did then me and the other 2G men and women on this site would be singing about 'three hyenas on my chest', crying in our Bishop's L*nger every four years complaining about (what is it now?) 38 years of hurt, for what is, on paper, a more successful side than Ireland. Instead we vote in foreign elections - if we can be bothered - while remain being disenfranchised in our own country.

As for unionists, the majority of Irish wanted independence of some form, and anyone disagreeing should have been big enough to either accept that - it's not like they were Jews being taken over by the Nazis - or move to their 'homeland'. But it wasn't to be, and through the threat of force of arms they managed to split the country. Any future all-Ireland state will have to accept huge autonomy for Unionists, including such sensitive areas as policing and education, that is the writ in Spain at the moment and will be extended in due course to other 'new' EU members with sizeable minorities like Latvia and Slovakia and, if by some chance they get in, Turkey. This was recognised by people like Dev and Ruiri O'Bradaigh but there is nothing but silence on the subject at the moment, SF ditching 'Eire Nua' in the seventies to a more centralised (and unworkable) Ireland. The (internal) border will have to remain but it will be IMO a small price worth paying for Ireland to be finally independent.

[eoinh]

I agree with you Lopez. But i was simply looking at things from "a logical Point of view".

i actually think regional government would be a very good idea. Everbody knows that current national policy is really dublin policy. Look at the way our health service or transport policy is developed.

I think regional assemblies for Ulster, Leinster, Connaught and Munster would be a good idea.

It works well in places like Switzerland, Austria and Germany. Why not here?

Regional Assemblyman Jackie Healy Rae has a nice ring to it.

[lopez]

i actually think regional government would be a very good idea. Everbody knows that current national policy is really dublin policy. Look at the way our health service or transport policy is developed.I agree with that. So as to remove the cost of more beuracracy, county councils should be dissolved. Also I want to campaign for Kepakland to get back it's status as the fifth province. :eek:

[dcfcsteve]

As a northern Catholic I'd love to see Unionism take it's head out of the sand and use it's current numerical position of strength to strong-arm a good deal for the 6 counties within a new pan-island federal Irish state. They won't have the choice any more within 20yrs time, so better facing up to it now. Unfortunately, we all know that won't happen until it's too late.

And I could see Belfast giving Dublin a serious run for it's money as an economic powerhouse in a single country. Belfast has always been a hive of ingenuity and entrepreneurialism. Would be much more competitive between the two than, say, Manchester currently is in relation to London.

Up the northerners, regardless of creed....! :D

[dcfcsteve]

You imply that being born in Britain might incline a person toward singing- three
skids marks on my shorts-etc but using your argument then why aren't the Scots and the Welsh singing it. It was Dev that included articles two and three into our constitution which laid claim to the North-i e pending the re-integration of the "national territory" the Dail will legislate for 26 counties-
The political reality is that most parties (including Britain) have signed up to the Good Friday agreement and the Brits have agreed within the terms of the agreement that the North will remain British for as long as the majority of people there choose to remain British. But as said previously the cenus figures
in the North indicate that Catholics will be in a majority in the neat future.
What then will Unionists refuse to accept the will and self determination of the majority of Irish people on this island for the second time in a hundred years? this would be a recipe for civil war.... Someone once said that not all Catholics are nationalist and prefer to remain British-but not all Protestants
are Unionist either.


Sadly the goal posts are moving. Whereas the agreed talk used to be of remaining in the UK until a majority of the population of Northern Ireland actively chose otherwise, some Unionist politicians have subtly changed the emphasis of this in recent years onto a requirement for a majority within each community. i.e. feck the nationalists if they're in a majority - unless the majority of the new minority agree to change as well, it shouldn't happen. Madness. Fortunately neither the British nor Irish governments would accept that classical Unionist gerrymandering of the concept of democracy...

[Duncan Gardner]

Fortunately neither the British nor Irish governments would accept that classical Unionist gerrymandering of the concept of democracy...


If some future election sees nationalists at 51%, there might not be instant end to partition some assume. London or Dublin might get cold feet, unionist paramilitaries could up the ante. The 'majority of both sides' fudge might then be used as an excuse for intertia, realpolitik or craven giving in to terrorism...

as a northern Catholic I'd love to see Unionism take it's head out of the sand and use it's current numerical position of strength to strong-arm a good deal for the 6 counties within a new pan-island federal Irish state. They won't have the choice any more within 20yrs time


They probably will. Nationalists will still be rather less than 50% of the population (41- 42% in recent elections).

But as said previously the census figures in the North indicate that Catholics will be in a majority in the near future


I read them as saying 'Catholic' numbers will top out at around 46- 47% between 2015-2020. The nationalist slogan is wishful thinking, not political reality!

It works well in places like Switzerland, Austria and Germany. Why not here?


It wouldn't work so well in Valais, Karnten or Mecklenburg-Vorpommern if anyone suggested any of them join a different country?

Any future all-Ireland state will have to accept huge autonomy for Unionists


Would this be so different from the current relationship between North and South (broadly, everyone in both can choose how much or little they co-operate with the other)? Why not accept a mutually co-operative relationship. Like Switzerland, Austria or Germany, eh?

Would they admit that it would serve there community a lot better if they were part of an agreed Ireland a carrying the electoral clout of circa one million people voting into a population of 5 million on this island- rather than the present situation where their voice is negligable voting into a population of over 50 million in Britain?


No. The whole point of having electoral clout is using it to achieve your political objectives. Not to give up a favoured minority position with plenty of autonomy, for a less favoured one with less autonomy!

However if there was a United Ireland the Unionist...natural allies of course would be the fine girl party Finn Gael- Fianna Fail would probally twin with Sinn Fein, and labour the Sdlp


OK, notionally...not all unionists share FG's conservativism. The SDLP are much more likely to merge with a fellow nationalist party, FF. I wouldn't rule out a FF-SF coalition (ie, don't believe Bertie).

Unfortunately no one listened and we are left with a border that serves no geographical, cultural, economic, or political purpose


Except that it separates two separate countries. The Belgian/ Dutch, Swiss/ Norwegian or even Czech/ Slovak borders serve little more economic, cultural or geographical purpose than the Irish..

"It certainly won't be anything like a Linfield- Rangers loyalist love-in"...What details am I suppose to add, hombre?


I assumed you'd agree that, while Linfield- Rangers wouldn't exactly be a quiet night out, it's unlikely to be openly confrontational. NI- England may well be, alas.

[lopez]

You imply that being born in Britain might incline a person toward singing- three
skids marks on my shorts-etc
:D :D :D . I like it. If you've seen my regular past posts you'd know I wouldn't imply such a thing. The suggestion within this thread is that Unionists should see themselves as Irish merely by being born in Ireland.

but using your argument then why aren't the Scots and the Welsh singing it.
Despite the hype, unionism is still strong in Scotland (around 50%), as seen by the 'skid marks' at Ibrox. 100 years ago it was much stronger with Tory MPs dotted around the 'country'. As for Wales, where does Keith 'Fat Les' Allen, from 'World in Motion' and 'Vindaloo' fame, and described as 'English' in a biog from The Guardian, come from? Swansea (David Baddiel's birthplace is unobtainable on the internet but I've heard rumours he was born in Cardiff-He's listed in www.famouswelsh.com). Compare this with Ireland's history viz a viz Britannia and the current desire of unionists for independence (1.5%: There's far more Protestants want to become part of an all-Ireland state).

It was Dev that included articles two and three into our constitution which laid claim to the North-i e pending the re-integration of the "national territory" the Dail will legislate for 26 counties...
Dev always knew that a 6C parliament had to remain. See John Bowman's: De Valera and the Ulster Question 1917-1973.

But as said previously the cenus figures in the North indicate that Catholics will be in a majority in the neat future. What then will Unionists refuse to accept the will and self determination of the majority of Irish people on this island for the second time in a hundred years? this would be a recipe for civil war....
Seeing that 33 to 40% of the population brought down the Stormont government civil war is quite likely. The point is that if the numbers lead to an all-Ireland state, something will need to be done not to alienate Unionists (had Stormont done this with Catholics, 3.5K lives might still be alive today). Extensive autonomy covering everything except external border control and defence should be handed over. Even some foreign affairs (like NI remaining in the commonwealth and the rights of the NI population to British citizenship) should be handed over.

Someone once said that not all Catholics are nationalist and prefer to remain British-but not all Protestants
are Unionist either.NI is about nationality not religion. However RC unionists have been discriminated from much of public life and until recently there has been rarely any UUP members who were Catholic (FFS, there's a FP member of SF in Coleraine council). It's hard to say if Catholic unionists actually feel British or are just unionist for financial reasons.

And I could see Belfast giving Dublin a serious run for it's money as an economic powerhouse in a single country. Belfast has always been a hive of ingenuity and entrepreneurialism. Would be much more competitive between the two than, say, Manchester currently is in relation to London. Up the northerners, regardless of creed....!
Dublin and Belfast could be like many city relations in Europe because of their relative size (Munich and Hamburg in the old WG, Amsterdam and Rotterdam, Madrid and Barcelona, Turin and Milan in Northern Italy.)

Sadly the goal posts are moving. Whereas the agreed talk used to be of remaining in the UK until a majority of the population of Northern Ireland actively chose otherwise, some Unionist politicians have subtly changed the emphasis of this in recent years onto a requirement for a majority within each community. i.e. feck the nationalists if they're in a majority - unless the majority of the new minority agree to change as well, it shouldn't happen. Madness.
Trimble was on about a Unionist veto on re-unification a few years ago. It didn't surprise me at all seeing Unionism's history re 'democracy'.

The 'majority of both sides' fudge might then be used as an excuse for intertia, realpolitik or craven giving in to terrorism...
As in 1914.

The whole point of having electoral clout is using it to achieve your political objectives. Not to give up a favoured minority position with plenty of autonomy, for a less favoured one with less autonomy!
Up until recently Unionism relied on being the balence of power in slim majorities in Westminster (like the IPP a century before). No slim majority; no influence. With 20% of the Irish vote this would rarely be the case in Ireland. It could also mean that parties may split along socio-economic lines within Unionism rather than who's the best at being British.

OK, notionally...not all unionists share FG's conservativism. The SDLP are much more likely to merge with a fellow nationalist party, FF. I wouldn't rule out a FF-SF coalition (ie, don't believe Bertie).
Good point.

Except that it separates two separate countries. The Belgian/ Dutch, Swiss/ Norwegian or even Czech/ Slovak borders serve little more economic, cultural or geographical purpose than the Irish..
Take it you mean Swedish/Norwegian. ;) The one thing that strikes in W Europe is the clear distinction between countries (thanks it must be said to Stalin's population transfers). Even between the two Basque towns of Hendaye and Irun, the perceptions of nationality is a distinct them and us. Between Holland and Germany, few on either side (save a few Nazis perhaps) wants to join the other. That's not the case along much of the Irish border. It takes about 20 miles into a small statelet to find any significant community of unionists. The examples you give are therefore disingenuous (as you know well). They describe clear cut borders between two nations, despite all being one country at some time in the past. Nowhere is there a significant area where almost 50% of the whole population in any region wants to join a neighbouring country and where this is greatly higher percentage that do in counties/provinces/cantons along a national border. Within the new EU states, the closest examples are between Sovakia and Hungary, Latvia/Lithuania and Russia and perhaps Slovenia and Italy. (I'd even add the partition of Tyrol between Austria and Italy within the old EU as the nearest to the irredentism of Ireland. Certainly in my experience, the Belgian Flemish nationalists - despite the same language, and in parts, religion - hate the Dutch with a vengeance and are like Basques seeking independence rather than an anschluss).

[Duncan Gardner]

Take it you mean Swedish/Norwegian. ;)

Indeed!

The one thing that strikes in W Europe is the clear distinction between countries (thanks it must be said to Stalin's population transfers)

Up to a point. Plenty of Germans in Alsace (Wenger played in the local kreisliga as a kid), Schleswig, even in Upper Silesia (where Miroslav Klose hails from, hence the unusual name).

It takes about 20 miles into a small statelet to find any significant community of unionists

Waterside (one of two effectively separate neighboring towns) is but six miles from the border. Your point is fair though slightly exaggerated. Mine's not disingenous- I'm happy to accept the border was unfairly drawn, not that it shouldn't exist per se. As you know...

I'm off awhile. A pleasant and peaceful holiday to all!

[lopez]

The one thing that strikes in W Europe is the clear distinction between countries (thanks it must be said to Stalin's population transfers)

Up to a point. Plenty of Germans in Alsace (Wenger played in the local kreisliga as a kid), Schleswig, even in Upper Silesia (where Miroslav Klose hails from, hence the unusual name).

And I'm sure there are a few French in Saar too. Both Alsace and Schleswig (the Danish bit) were under German rule for little over half a century between them. Enough for a stream of 'planters' to be settled (like Turkish Cyprus) but not enough time for 'nation building.' It might be all a bit of a myth by the French, but there weren't too many pleased in Alsace-Lorraine to being re-united to the reich once again. Going into Poland, Bohemia and Austria is a different matter. The loss of German lands and cities (Danzig the most famous) and the failure to allow rump German speaking Austria to join with Germany was a malicious and (in view of WW2) possibly a stupid act. However, despite the virtual demolition of German society in what is now Poland, I'm sure plenty of German names remained. Me and Sylvo met a taxi driver with one in Auschwitz (not sure if once part of Austrian Galicia or German Silesia) in April although he was ignorant from whom he picked it up from. Anyway, with the unscrupulous manner that Germany hands out citizenship (Kebabsarbeiter geboren sind im Reich: Nein. Vielen gut fussballers von Africa mit keine Deutsche blut: Ja ) I'd take any Miroslav's German credentials with a large amount of salt, hombre. An old Nazi membership card of a father or grandfather was sufficient for Soviet Germans to get citizenship when the USSR fell apart.


It takes about 20 miles into a small statelet to find any significant community of unionists

Waterside (one of two effectively separate neighboring towns) is but six miles from the border. Your point is fair though slightly exaggerated. Mine's not disingenous- I'm happy to accept the border was unfairly drawn, not that it shouldn't exist per se. As you know...

Well, I'm sure that the partition of Derry into two cities is not unthinkable, but until then, it's one city with a nationalist majority. It's also a nationalist majority within four of NI's six counties. Even the statelet's capital is now majority nationalist. I was thinking more of Portadown and Enniskillen - Unionist major towns even if situated in Catholic majority counties- when I was coming up with the 20 mile figure.


I'm off awhile. A pleasant and peaceful holiday to all!Shona nollaig agus un feliz ano nuevo.

[BobbySands]

As part of the Anglo Irish agreement the republic did away with the articles in the constitution claiming juristiction over the north. This copperfastened the two country/one island concept. Setanta cup is nonsense. Why not play against the Icelandic or Macedonian champs. Build a wall along the border and leave the likes of Paisley, Peter Robinson and Frank Carson up to their own devices.

[Troy.McClure]

Setanta cup is nonsense. Why not play against the Icelandic or Macedonian champs.

LOL :D

Good to see someone getting back(ish) on topic anyway

[lopez]

LOL :D

Good to see someone getting back(ish) on topic anywayTroy. Big up to responding to such a post. LOL: A freestater with the moniker of BS. You couldn't make it up. :mad:

[Cosmo]

And back to the point.

Their should be an agreement between all clubs involved that Union Jacks and Tricolours should be banned at all the setanta cup matches. If they don't do this all clubs involved are just plain stupid.

As regards Portadown. We played them in a preseason friendly last season. 3 of us up went up. Went to the pub in the ground where you've to 'buzz' to get in. Probably shouldnt have gone in as we werent made feel very welcome and got one comment 'dirty fenian scum' directed at me. Left then.

After the match though we went into the other bar in the ground. A few dodgy heads but got talking to a few of them and they were grand (a bit of good humoured rangers/ celtic slagging). Made us feel very welcome and got a few free pints and they dug out some old programmes for us!!

You're always going to get the headers at it though. Last time Drogs played Linfield in our old stadium, the Lourdes Stadium, a local politician ran around the race track around the pitch with a burning Union Jack.

[paudie]

And back to the point.

Their should be an agreement between all clubs involved that Union Jacks and Tricolours should be banned at all the setanta cup matches. If they don't do this all clubs involved are just plain stupid.


Whether to ban UJ's & tricolours or not is a tough one. If clubs try to enforce it by stewards taking flags off fans entering the ground it could cause more trouble than it would prevent.

Clubs playing each other should certainly agree rules for home and away fans re chanting, flags etc well in advance.

I think Glentoran fans were advised by their own club not to bring UJ's to the Brandywell for the recent friendly.