Republic of Ireland V Serbia - Wednesday, 5th March 2014 - Friendly

[SwanVsDalton]

He's not being maligned... a perceived flaw in his game is being discussed rationally. Nobody is saying, "to hell with that Long, he couldn't finish his dinner". As far as I have seen, everybody agrees he's a smashing player but it's a shame he can't be a bit more clinical, as he's clearly got the ability to take more chances that he does.

That attempted chip made me hope Roy gives him a boot up the hole. Strikers like Suarez, Van Persie and Robbie get to try things like that because they've banked up enough goodwill, but not Shane. Just put it in the net, think of chipping the keeper later. I'd love for someone to sit down our strikers (bar Robbie) and just say 'goals!' over-and-over again, Clockwork Orange style.

[Fixer82]

I think it may have been good for Long to miss those chances. Especially in a friendly. He might give himself the kick in the hole he needs to stop the fancy sh!t and just score the goal. I'm talking about the third chance more so. He showed great pace to get into the position for the second effort.

But had he scored that chip he might always go for the fancy dan stuff

[Fixer82]

One thing I think we definitely learned from the game is we don't have much strength in depth.
When Hoolahan went off there was nobody to replace him and his type of play. Meyler, Walters, Murphy, Keogh, Ward are all nearly good enough for international football but not quite I fear. All good grafters but don't have that extra special ability needed

[Stuttgart88]

I agree Fixer, especially with your appraisal of those players, though maybe it's worth mentioning that Gibson, Brady and Reid will be back (fingers crossed) for the proper stuff - and ideally the end of season games (Brady just had a serious groin op so probably not May/June, dunno about Gibson).

Dunne, O'Shea, SSL and probably Clark can enhance the centre of defence. Each is a cut above Keogh and Delaney probably is too. I trust MON with centre-backs. I expect Pearse may get another shot soon too.

Clark, a PL regular, is likely to be given a chance to claim the left back role.

Wilson might yet find a home in midfield if he is crowded out of the CB role. He looks like he likes being on the ball.

McGeady should play better with club games under his belt. Coleman is unlikely to be as sloppy as on Wednesday. Long's finishing won't get worse and Keane still has a big role to play.

I think there is still a case for optimism and also a little bit of wriggle room to tolerate an injury or two.

[paul_oshea]

I'm begining to wonder why O'Shea was brought in and Dunne not. A few snippets from O'Neill suggests he doesn't think Dunne is physically able for it anymore, perhaps we are all wrong and Dunne might not be recalled at all and hence why he was trying to see his best CB pairing. I hope thats not the case but I am a little confused as to what O'Neills thinking is here.

[Stuttgart88]

I genuinely think Dunne will figure early on if fit. He has played regularly at QPR (ever present?) and has a hard run of games coming up, hence his rest. I think MON will recognise that his experience and leadership ought to help us defend corners better and just generally enhance centre of defence. JOS is also important but had played a cup final on the Sunday.

Whilst Keogh didn't fluff his lines he did nothing to suggest he should be anything more than 4th or 5th choice by September.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't think Dunne will play barring an emergency.

[back of the net]

Has there been any explanation by the management as to why our midfield were so deep and why were so poor in the second half?

Serbia are a very decent side - but christ we gave them all the in the world on the ball in the second half - shocking stuff

[tricky_colour]

Has there been any explanation by the management as to why our midfield were so deep and why were so poor in the second half?

Serbia are a very decent side - but christ we gave them all the in the world on the ball in the second half - shocking stuff

It could be that we started too fast amd the players were knackered out by the end.
I think the Irish rugby team had a habit of doing this which may have returned recently.

Or maybe they are not eating enough chips pre-match.

Long was having his chips on the pitch whcih tends to back that theory up.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Taken from a three minute forum search...









Maybe you wouldn't call that drum-beating, but when a poster brings up a player repeatedly (from pre-squad announcement to during the match), then I think it's justified for anyone to say 'hmmm, I think TOWK rates Daryl Murphy'. It's was particularly noticeable to me because I don't rate him. ;)

It's fine you know, if you like the player - no problem. But your posting goes beyond merely reporting what Murphy's saying.

As for the rest of your post, I don't agree but that's largely been gone over. In terms of movement, I think in most games Walters runs and constant availability for the ball allows Robbie/Shane/whoever to get an extra bit of space in behind. Walters likes to show short or wide, he (usually) is able to hold the ball up and give the other striker space to move into. I also think he's a mite smarter, as a player, than most give him credit for. If you disagree, well that's fine too.

I'd have been happy to see Stokes come on, and I'd agree with anyone who was a bit horrified by the prospect of Walters and Murphy together. Strange one. Maybe, as someone mentioned, this court case was affecting him.

On the Doyle front, I'd have him in the squad. Five strikers if we can afford it - Robbie, Shane, Doyle, Walters, Stokes. But there's a huge question mark as to whether he'll ever be effective as he once was. And if O'Neill and Keane decide to go forward with a one-up-front attack, then five strikers (and Doyle) in a squad might be bankrupt.

One of those comments was in response to someone saying Adam Rooney is better than Daryl Murphy.

Another was about David McGoldrick. I said "Penny for the thoughts of" because he's an Irish striker and I wonder what he would think about his teammate (who plays in the same position) and someone who has tenuous links to our country declaring. Murph encouraged it so what does my opinion matter on that?

"Why not just call up Daryl Murphy?" God knows what context that comment came out of. I was probably rambling on about Cox or Walters and Murphy was incidental to the point.

The final Murphy related comment. Of course I'm going to comment on him and give my thoughts on his call-up. There were no other call-ups to debate.

So I'm not a fan of Murphy. But yes, he is hardly any worse then Keogh, Cox, Sammon, Walters, Folan or Best and he can play in two positions.

Walters. I just judge him on his lack of goals, inability to cross the ball, poor passing, poor heading, poor touch, poor pace and his making me smh when counter attacks go to waste because he isn't intuitive enough, show for the ball or offer pace.

He is a workhorse and it has its merits when used properly but he was starting games he shouldn't have been starting in positions he wasn't suited to.

He reminds me of Kilbane. He runs all day and the fans like him, and he can be hard for defenders to deal with because he never gives up but by God it has its limitations.

And I can believe I may be hard on Walters but people are similarly hard on Murphy and Sammon before him. Murphy only has the one start at the end of the day. Long too. People go on about his goalscoring rate but he has 11 in 44, which is a record of 1 in every 3 odd starts.

Yes he missed sitters and yes it's frustrating but his movement was excellence and his awareness and pace made those chances (along with Hoolahan). Would we get those chances with Keane? Be realistic. If Keane scores (and I'm not saying he won't) it will be tap ins.

And speaking of wasted chances, I can think of chances Keane should have put away in Slovakia and France directly off the top of my head.

[Stuttgart88]

Of course Keane has wasted chances but only a twit would deny he is a more reliable goalscorer than Long or any other forward option. He had a shocker all round in Slovakia and in his favour, Lloris had an exceptional game in each leg of the play off.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Of course Keane has wasted chances but only a twit would deny he is a more reliable goalscorer than Long or any other forward option. He had a shocker all round in Slovakia and in his favour, Lloris had an exceptional game in each leg of the play off.

Of course. It's a catch 22. Long scored one and made another several chances for himself. Keane is not capable of creating those chances for himself. And it is not cut and dry that Keane would have scored those goals either. As someone already pointed out, they are not the kind of goals that he scores.

[Charlie Darwin]

They may not be "the kind of goals that he scores" but he certainly is deadly in one on one situations, as exemplified by this goal away to Macedonia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aRMRR2Wk7E#t=64

Even for goals that Long does score one on one, I've never seen him exhibit that level of calm in a one on one.

[mark12345]

I agree Fixer, especially with your appraisal of those players, though maybe it's worth mentioning that Gibson, Brady and Reid will be back (fingers crossed) for the proper stuff - and ideally the end of season games (Brady just had a serious groin op so probably not May/June, dunno about Gibson).

Dunne, O'Shea, SSL and probably Clark can enhance the centre of defence. Each is a cut above Keogh and Delaney probably is too. I trust MON with centre-backs. I expect Pearse may get another shot soon too.

Clark, a PL regular, is likely to be given a chance to claim the left back role.

Wilson might yet find a home in midfield if he is crowded out of the CB role. He looks like he likes being on the ball.

McGeady should play better with club games under his belt. Coleman is unlikely to be as sloppy as on Wednesday. Long's finishing won't get worse and Keane still has a big role to play.

I think there is still a case for optimism and also a little bit of wriggle room to tolerate an injury or two.

All very true. But I've come to the conclusion, as we start off another campaign under new management, that we just don't play football the way it should be played. Forget about the goals scored for or against us on Wednesday last. What about the 85 minutes or so of other football, where Serbia held the ball for as long as they wanted and we chased it around like we usually do. And then when we won possession back we gave it away just as quickly. A recipe for another two years of pure frustration if you ask me. That is unless Martin and Roy go back to the basics with out team as a whole (some lads are capable of playing possession football but too many are not). We have to eliminate the long ball game. I would start (as Real Madrid used to do when they suffered a damaging defeat) by starting from scratch again against a low ranked team (say League of Ireland) and build up the passing movements against them. And carry on from there with the opposition getting stronger every time. Of course there is going to be no time for that now, but that is what's needed. It is going to be a balancing act of trying to teach our lads how to possess and shield the ball while trying to get results at the same time. Martin and Roy were brilliant at it themselves, so if anyone can do it they can.

[SkStu]

He's not being maligned... a perceived flaw in his game is being discussed rationally. Nobody is saying, "to hell with that Long, he couldn't finish his dinner". As far as I have seen, everybody agrees he's a smashing player but it's a shame he can't be a bit more clinical, as he's clearly got the ability to take more chances than he does.

Fair enough. Though I think you've taken my post more negatively than was intended. I just think his strengths don't get the same attention as his flaws by many here.

[Crosby87]

But Stu, The ladies call him "Long Shane."

[tricky_colour]

Walters got a goal to day so his shots per goal will drop from 10 to about 7.5

It was penalty though, something which distorts the figures significantly.

[Charlie Darwin]

All very true. But I've come to the conclusion, as we start off another campaign under new management, that we just don't play football the way it should be played. Forget about the goals scored for or against us on Wednesday last. What about the 85 minutes or so of other football, where Serbia held the ball for as long as they wanted and we chased it around like we usually do.
If you watch the game again you'll discover that this never happened. The final possession stats were 54%-46% in favour of Serbia, an edge they built up in the second half. In the first half, possession was about 60%-40% in Ireland's favour. People see what they want to see.

[Stuttgart88]

Mark, Rome wasn't built in a day as they say. For parts of games we are already playing better football than before. As Junior notably said here a few months ago, there will always be some huff and puff in our football.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Even in the Trapattoni era, often we would play 10-15 minutes of very good football and then we retreat into our shells and bend over for the opposition - regardless of quality - for the final 70-75 minutes.

[Stuttgart88]

Long scored one and made another several chances for himself. Keane is not capable of creating those chances for himself.
No. Long scored one and had two set up for him by Hoolahan. Long did not set those chances up for himself. You can argue that Long's persistence set up his goal, but so too did Keane's persistence put us ahead against Sweden. Sweden, the same country that Long ballooned a great chance over the bar against in Stockholm and inexplicably failed to square a ball to an unmarked Keane when we were 1 down in the home leg. If it was Keane who fluffed his lines like Long has in the last year he'd be slaughtered here.

Let's not also forget the header from 8 yards at home to Austria at 2-1 up that Long hit straight at the keeper when he had 95pc of the goal to hit. It was as bad as Keane's headed misses against the Czechs and Slovaks at home, and Long is a far better header of the ball. If I was to be a dick I'd say that Long cost us the win at home to Austria by that miss and also by being a petulant tw@t and he cost is a draw at home to Sweden by not seeing a pass that you'd slaughter a LOI player for not seeing.

Here's a challenge for you: go to youtube and dig me out as many Long one on one goals you can find at any level in his whole career. Also go to youtube and dig me out any one on one situation only at international level by Keane ( I.e, ignoring any coolly dispatched one on one in your Mickey Mouse league) in the last couple of years.

Catch 22 is an unsolvable dilemma. I like to think there is a way of solving this dilemma. I'm not arguing for Keane over Long - not one bit - but I want to point out the huge degree of sophism you are employing.

Charlie D was bang on. Keane knows how to take those one on ones. Sure he makes a balls of some but he knows what to do in those situations. Nothing is "cut and dry" but they are the type of goals he does score these days. They probably weren't the type of goals he scored in his first 7 or 8 years as a pro when his one on ones were poor.

They are also the type of chances that Long has made a very nasty habit of not even remotely looking like scoring lately. I'd be more forgiving if he tried to round the keeper and fail but against Georgia he looked fazed by the amount of time he had and last Wednesday he badly failed to appreciate how much additional time he had. I think it's as close to "cut and dry" as one could imagine that Keane would have shown more composure.

And just for those who think I'm being harsh: I think Long is a super player. I love the guy and what he brings and I think he has more in him.

[Stuttgart88]

Even in the Trapattoni era, often we would play 10-15 minutes of very good football and then we retreat into our shells and bend over for the opposition - regardless of quality - for the final 70-75 minutes.
We often scored very early under Trap. We usually played OK until we went ahead. I think there is already a noticeable change in attitude and desire the do the right thing. As I said Rome wasn't built in a day and the baby steps taken by King and O'Neill are steps in the right direction. I hope we can keep the streetwiseness that Trap brought while looking to be more positive for longer.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I am completely unconvinced by Keane's performances against teams like Germany and Poland over the last several years and his goalscoring record against them is not sufficient enough to start him based on that.

Shane Long brings so much more to the table. Keane has him on goals - you have got me dead to rights there but that's it. His overall contributions are not good enough and I think there are more tangible benefits to having Long, Doyle and others playing to their own strengths rather than trying to do mule work for Keane.

Long may miss sitters but his record of 11 in 44 or 1 in every 2.5 starts is fine and if he gets a run of starts in competitive games, I am confident the goals will come.

And I think you are doing a bit of a disservice to Long and not giving him enough credit for those two chances that were set up by Hoolahan. It was excellent acceleration, excellent positioning and excellent touch. We have already seen against Serbia the kind of understanding players like Long and Reid can create.

And also a bit harsh to blame Long for the Austrian draw. It was Trapattoni's fault for leaving on two lumbering forwards when we were holding on to a lead and the utter disconnect between Sammon and the rest of the team.

Don't think I'm being hard on Keane. He will be 34 when the qualifiers start, he is not playing in a good league, his Irish performances reflect that.

He will always be a threat against teams like Georgia, Gibraltar and maybe Scotland who have muck defenders. It was proven in that goal against Macedonia.

I think fundamentally, Long, Long/Hoolahan, Long/Reid or Long and Doyle/Walters is the way to go against Germany and Poland. The only thing Keane has on Long is a better goalscoring record but the likelihood of Keane scoring against Germany or Poland is not good enough to forego all we would get pursuing another option/s.

[tetsujin1979]

I am completely unconvinced by Keane's performances against teams like Germany and Poland over the last several years and his goalscoring record against them is not sufficient enough to start him based on that.

Shane Long brings so much more to the table. Keane has him on goals - you have got me dead to rights there but that's it. His overall contributions are not good enough and I think there are more tangible benefits to having Long, Doyle and others playing to their own strengths rather than trying to do mule work for Keane.

Long may miss sitters but his record of 11 in 44 or 1 in every 2.5 starts is fine and if he gets a run of starts in competitive games, I am confident the goals will come.

And I think you are doing a bit of a disservice to Long and not giving him enough credit for those two chances that were set up by Hoolahan. It was excellent acceleration, excellent positioning and excellent touch. We have already seen against Serbia the kind of understanding players like Long and Reid can create.

And also a bit harsh to blame Long for the Austrian draw. It was Trapattoni's fault for leaving on two lumbering forwards when we were holding on to a lead and the utter disconnect between Sammon and the rest of the team.

Don't think I'm being hard on Keane. He will be 34 when the qualifiers start, he is not playing in a good league, his Irish performances reflect that.

He will always be a threat against teams like Georgia, Gibraltar and maybe Scotland who have muck defenders. It was proven in that goal against Macedonia.

I think fundamentally, Long, Long/Hoolahan, Long/Reid or Long and Doyle/Walters is the way to go against Germany and Poland. The only thing Keane has on Long is a better goalscoring record but the likelihood of Keane scoring against Germany or Poland is not good enough to forego all we would get pursuing another option/s.
Keane's Irish performances while playing in a league that isn't good won him Irish player of the year just last week

[Stuttgart88]

(Responding to TOWK) And I largely agreed with that opinion in a post I made earlier today.

I will continue to point out the sophism laden in your posts, much like a barrister in court shouting "objection". Make your point fairly and squarely but avoid trying to throw in nonsense like Keane doesn't score one on ones. As for admiring how Long found the space for those chances I think nobody would deny that Keane is a master at that business. If your main forward can't make a run for a midfielder then you'd wonder why he's your main forward.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

And I largely agreed with that opinion in a post I made earlier today.

I will continue to point out the sophism laden in your posts, much like a barrister in court shouting "objection". Make your point fairly and squarely but avoid trying to throw in nonsense like Keane doesn't score one on ones. As for admiring how Long found the space for those chances I think nobody would deny that Keane is a master at that business. If your main forward can't make a run for a midfielder then you'd wonder why he's your main forward.

You can't just use the Macedonia game as one example though. The France game would be a better example. I am debating the merits of Keane automatically starting games against teams like Germany. He would be first name on even my teamsheet against teams like Macedonia where his plus points would outweigh his minus points.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not just using the Macedonia game as evidence. Check what I said.

Lloris made some great one on one stops against Keane, Duff and Whelan against France. Credit the goalkeeper. I'd say that it was the previous blocks by Lloris that prompted Keane to try and round him. Lloris is known as a "quick off his line keeper". Long looked hapless one on one against Georgia and Serbia. I think there is enough evidence to show that Keane is way more trustworthy in that situation than Long. Everything else I largely agree with.

I'm bowing out until tomorrow now, missing too much telly.

[DeLorean]

Bump.

[DeLorean]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H8Hgbgkz94

[DeLorean]

Closed thread.