Republic of Ireland V Serbia - Wednesday, 5th March 2014 - Friendly

[DannyInvincible]

Someone in Robbie's position and experience of dealing with the media should be more astute about how he says things.

Is that a roundabout admission that you may indeed have misinterpreted the intent behind his words?

[Razors left peg]

Someone in Robbie's position and experience of dealing with the media should be more astute about how he says things. What he said - taken at face value - has obvious connotations.
So because you didnt read his comments properly its his fault?

[geysir]

When it comes to this friendly and the next few, I hope we are not going to enter a typical O'Neill phase of indecisiveness, this time on how we should best utilise the players at our disposal. On that, it's probably a positive that O'Neill has Roy Keane at his side.
They have the potential to be the best management team in our international history.

[dr_peepee]

Disappointed there was no surprise inclusion of a plastic paddy none of us had on the radar. I had expected one..... Watched Murphy a lot at Sunderland. Had really rated him early on but soon parked expectations. Had a decent touch about him, but for someone so big who had a decent heading ability, he was brutal at getting off the ground and/or using his size. Jumped like he had lead in his boots. He had good technique and used that ball reasonably well when you got it too him, but wasn't dynamic or nimble enough to be a an out and out wide player or tenacious and prolific enough to be an out and out forward. Could see him occupying similar Walters type positions on the left, if performing differently in the role. But he'll be cut from the 29 I would think.

[geysir]

I think you have just explained why Murphy doesn't/didn't have decent heading ability.

[Stuttgart88]

Someone in Robbie's position and experience of dealing with the media should be more astute about how he says things. What he said - taken at face value - has obvious connotations.
I think you have high articulacy expectations from a guy who left school at 15 to play football. He's always done his talking on the pitch. Seamus Heaney was the wordsmith.

[BonnieShels]

I think you have high articulacy expectations from a guy who left school at 15 to play football. He's always done his talking on the pitch. Seamus Heaney was the wordsmith.

But Heaney could never do this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLoR1_cNPxg

[dr_peepee]

I think you have just explained why Murphy doesn't/didn't have decent heading ability. Ha!! No...I tried to be careful about wording that. He is s**** at reading the flight, getting off the ground and using his physique, but had decent heading technique when the head and ball occasionally made contact (Cushioned headers and what not) is how I remember it.

[Charlie Darwin]

I think you have high articulacy expectations from a guy who left school at 15 to play football. He's always done his talking on the pitch. Seamus Heaney was the wordsmith.
Robbie is far more articulate than people give him credit for. I think people just hear the accent and dismiss him. There's no real scope for ambiguity in what he said except for that which people try to apply.

[DeLorean]

Sinisa Mihajlovic's 45 years of controversy (http://balls.ie/football/sinisa-mihajlovics-45-years-controversy/)

[paul_oshea]

When it comes to this friendly and the next few, I hope we are not going to enter a typical O'Neill phase of indecisiveness, this time on how we should best utilise the players at our disposal. On that, it's probably a positive that O'Neill has Roy Keane at his side.
They have the potential to be the best management team in our international history.

The best management team in our history without the best resources (we have had) in our history.

[Stuttgart88]

Robbie is far more articulate than people give him credit for. I think people just hear the accent and dismiss him. There's no real scope for ambiguity in what he said except for that which people try to apply.I'm able hear more than the accent, trust me! I'm not saying he's not articulate, I'm saying it's not unreasonable for a footballer to give writers with an agenda scope for printing scurilous headlines. If he was a PR professional I'd have higher standards.

[tetsujin1979]

Hendrick is going to be in the U21 squad: http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/hendrick-to-line-out-for-kings-u21s-30028790.html

[paul_oshea]

I see O'Neill is concenred that no young lads knocking on the door. Trap was lucky there were a few prospects coming through when he started, and through his term granted he failed to utilise them soon enough and back fired, but there really is no one coming through now which is really concerning.

Anyone any idea when the fixtures will be made after the draw? End of March?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

So because you didnt read his comments properly its his fault?

Keane's comments are in the public domain. It was pretty easy to read between the lines imo.

Genuine question. Do you think if Keane was a unused/substitute at the beginning of the next campaign and/if O'Neill wanted to peruse other options/formations for the good of the team, would he put his head down or would he retire and focus on his club career and remaining injury free, which doesn't go hand in hand with the travel entailed.

By all means, he may take a role as substitute.

I certainly don't understand why his comments are being shrugged off as scurrilous paper talk. They came out of his mouth! It wasn't the first time either.

[Yard of Pace]

but there really is no one coming through now which is really concerning.



Really?? What about the Villa lads including Grealish, Sean Murray, Duffy, O'Brien at Derby.....

[tetsujin1979]

Really?? What about the Villa lads including Grealish, Sean Murray, Duffy, O'Brien at Derby.....
Ian Lawlor part of extended squads at City, Sam Byrne out on loan, McEvoy, Hoban back in the first team picture at Watford, Hendrick

[Yard of Pace]

Ian Lawlor part of extended squads at City, Sam Byrne out on loan, McEvoy, Hoban back in the first team picture at Watford, Hendrick

Yep, nothing coming through at all.

[Stuttgart88]

Aaron McCarey now starting at Wolves?

If the point is that none is immediately threatening the incumbents then I'd say that's fair enough. If the point is that he sees nobody in the 18-23 agre group challenging for a squad place in the next two yeras, well I'd be disappointed in such a remark.

Maybe we should get TOWK to interpret as he's the expert in deciphering the real meaning in peoples' remarks and sub-editors' headlines :)

[Stuttgart88]

Genuine question. Do you think if Keane was a unused/substitute at the beginning of the next campaign and/if O'Neill wanted to peruse other options/formations for the good of the team, would he put his head down or would he retire and focus on his club career and remaining injury free, which doesn't go hand in hand with the travel entailed.

By all means, he may take a role as substitute.

I certainly don't understand why his comments are being shrugged off as scurrilous paper talk. They came out of his mouth! It wasn't the first time either.When was the other time?

And hang on: there is the world of difference between a guy aged 35 going on 36 retiring in good grace from international football when he is no longer a key figure and a 32-33 year old threatening to simply quit if he is no longer selected - and, by implication, with more than a whiff of bad grace about it. The latter is how you have chosen to interpret it. He made the remark at least a year ago so the 32-33 y/o bit is wholly relevant.

You really are a sophist of the highest order.

Some scenarios:

(1) If he is dropped by MON during this campaign and quits in a huff I'll hold my hands up. TOWK will be right. If he is dropped in this campaign but stays on TOWK will be wrong.

(2) However, if he is told by MON in this campaign that he is no longer in his plans and he then retires then nobody wins this debate. It remains an unknown.

(3) If he retires at the end of the upcoming campaign at 35, therefore close to 36* at the start of the subsequent campaign, then nobody wins either. His time will have come and gone naturally.

TOWK, would you have the deceny to agree that the sequence above is fair?

* I couldnt be ar$ed to check his birthday again.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Stutts, you are one of the wise sages of this forum. I always value your opinion.

[paul_oshea]

Lads i think thats clutching at straws a bit more than anything, some players might not play for us, others have dubious injury records, and others have been in and out of teams. The players i mentioned were playing premiership football....

These are mainly championship players who even if they blossom still could end up playing championship all their life. Remember Owen garvan huge talk of how well he was doing at Ipswich (championship) whatever happened him? LIkewise chris mccann played a few premiership games and thats it. If we aspire to championship players then ya its really bright...

And even those loanees from PL how many loanees have we seen fall by the way side or just float between championship and league 1. Greg Cunningham anyone?

Yep, nothing coming through at all.

[Stuttgart88]

Stutts, you are one of the wise sages of this forum. I always value your opinion.
Thanks, but that avoids the question!

[paul_oshea]

Aaron McCarey now starting at Wolves?

If the point is that none is immediately threatening the incumbents then I'd say that's fair enough. If the point is that he sees nobody in the 18-23 agre group challenging for a squad place in the next two yeras, well I'd be disappointed in such a remark.

Maybe we should get TOWK to interpret as he's the expert in deciphering the real meaning in peoples' remarks and sub-editors' headlines :)

Oh yey now we look forward to league 2 players. Are we looking for anyone playing first team football under the age of 23 in any league in England?

His point is straightforward enough I reckon(sometimes i wonder how people get so many different interpretations and most mainly wrong) we dont have many players pushing through at PL level like he believed we had when he took over or believed would come through time. As I said the players mentioned previously came through at PL level from a relatively young age. We dont seem to have anyone at that now.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

As long as foreign managers are in vogue in The Premiership, chances of Irish players breaking through are slim to bupkis.

Say what you want about people like Allardyce, McLeish and Hughes; if an Irish player was good enough, they would be given a chance. The more exotic managers just go to their Chairman with a list of two-dozen kids with unintelligible surnames ending in vowels.

Look at how belligerent Benitez was with Keane at Liverpool. Do you think a French or Spanish player with Keane's record would have been treated as spitefully? "You were man of match in papersh. I don't think you were man of match." "I want you to shtay behind for exshtra training sho David N'Gog can teach you positioning." "That's all I want to shay. You can go now."

Look how many chances Wenger had to sign players like Given and Dunne but he went through a gaggle of foreign flops like Almunia and Squillaci. Even John O'Shea would have been a good, realistic signing at one stage or other but never was any interest shown in him but he did sign Mikael F'n Silvestre.

And don't get me started on Garry Cook letting Richard Dunne leave City because he wasn't "marketable" enough. That attitude sums it up.

Roberto Soldado has a name that sounds amusing when you do it in a Spanish accent and roll the r and l's but he is still absolutely p!ss poor at this level.

[peadar1987]

I never knew Benitez was Dutch!

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I never knew Benitez was Dutch!

He kind of pronounces the letter s in a Dutch style.

[paul_oshea]

As long as foreign managers are in vogue in The Premiership, chances of Irish players breaking through are slim to bupkis.

Say what you want about people like Allardyce, McLeish and Hughes; if an Irish player was good enough, they would be given a chance. The more exotic managers just go to their Chairman with a list of two-dozen kids with unintelligible surnames ending in vowels.

Look at how belligerent Benitez was with Keane at Liverpool. Do you think a French or Spanish player with Keane's record would have been treated as spitefully? "You were man of match in papersh. I don't think you were man of match." "I want you to shtay behind for exshtra training sho David N'Gog can teach you positioning." "That's all I want to shay. You can go now."

Look how many chances Wenger had to sign players like Given and Dunne but he went through a gaggle of foreign flops like Almunia and Squillaci. Even John O'Shea would have been a good, realistic signing at one stage or other but never was any interest shown in him but he did sign Mikael F'n Silvestre.

And don't get me started on Garry Cook letting Richard Dunne leave City because he wasn't "marketable" enough. That attitude sums it up.

Roberto Soldado has a name that sounds amusing when you do it in a Spanish accent and roll the r and l's but he is still absolutely p!ss poor at this level.

Ok so here i do that really annoying thing and give an exception as though i have completely blown your point out of the water like all the other posters on here. Martinez.

Then follow the thanks and silly smart comments after to try and build foundations under my well structured exception.

Yours is a good point though.

Isnt soldado propounced soYdado OR central/south american sojdado?

[SwanVsDalton]

I see O'Neill is concenred that no young lads knocking on the door. Trap was lucky there were a few prospects coming through when he started, and through his term granted he failed to utilise them soon enough and back fired, but there really is no one coming through now which is really concerning.

Depends how we define a prospect. In Trap's era, how many PL club prospects came through? Gibson, Clark, Coleman, McClean maybe? After that I think most of the players to emerge were lower league or less touted prospects. And out of previous names out of those I'd only say Gibson and Clark were players that were pegged for bigger things. Coleman and McClean had meteoric rises from the LOI, which is slightly different.

I'd agree the cupboard looks a bit bear. What we wouldn't do for a couple of sure things in the U-21's. McAvoy and Grealish are probably our best hopes at the moment. But situation can change pretty quickly. A couple of LOI players jumping up or unexpected novices hitting a peak run of form Wasn't that long ago that Shane Long was dismissed as lower-level fodder. Some of these U21s may not look up to much now but could turn out to be mainstays in five years.


Anyone any idea when the fixtures will be made after the draw? End of March?

For Euro 2012, the draw took place on 7 February 2010 and the fixtures came out at the end of March, start of April. It would've been by mid-March but the usual attempts to thrash out fixtures between the nations was vetoed by one of our opponents so UEFA drew them from a hat. Presume it'll be similar again.

[SwanVsDalton]

As long as foreign managers are in vogue in The Premiership, chances of Irish players breaking through are slim to bupkis.

Say what you want about people like Allardyce, McLeish and Hughes; if an Irish player was good enough, they would be given a chance. The more exotic managers just go to their Chairman with a list of two-dozen kids with unintelligible surnames ending in vowels.

They get short shrift all right but part of the reason for that is the aul 'British premium' - established Irish players tend to be very expensive. The bidding for Coleman is going to be pretty outrageous.

If Sam Allardyce was managing Man City, he wouldn't be looking at bringing over Kevin Nolan, Matt Taylor and Joey O'Brien no matter how much he likes them.

Bang on with Benitez and Keane though. Did he actually say that about N'Gog? Holy god.

[CraftyToePoke]

Martinez.

The guy did have a journeyman playing career in Britain, which would set him apart from most of the other continental managers coming under scrutiny here.

[Charlie Darwin]

Aaron McCarey now starting at Wolves?

If the point is that none is immediately threatening the incumbents then I'd say that's fair enough. If the point is that he sees nobody in the 18-23 agre group challenging for a squad place in the next two yeras, well I'd be disappointed in such a remark.

Maybe we should get TOWK to interpret as he's the expert in deciphering the real meaning in peoples' remarks and sub-editors' headlines :)
Ikeme is fit again so McCarey is back on the bench, which he'll presumably warm for the foreseeable future as the only other senior goalkeeper at the club.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

They get short shrift all right but part of the reason for that is the aul 'British premium' - established Irish players tend to be very expensive. The bidding for Coleman is going to be pretty outrageous.

If Sam Allardyce was managing Man City, he wouldn't be looking at bringing over Kevin Nolan, Matt Taylor and Joey O'Brien no matter how much he likes them.

Bang on with Benitez and Keane though. Did he actually say that about N'Gog? Holy god.

I was exaggerating the part about N'Gog for extra effect.

Benitez did get Keane to sit down with some guy that never played football before and analyse where he was going wrong in terms of positioning etc... which rankled Robbie no end.

[paul_oshea]

Ah SvD come on you didnt think he really said that? And how would TOWK know?

Ya i remembered it being around end of march/april and a picture of delaney mid march going to a nice hotel for talks. He must spend a lot of time in nice hotels actually.

Fair point CTP, but thats probably the issue here, you go with what you know, Martinez has used both approaches he understands the english game and what kinda players suit it, but he also knows the spanish game. These foreign managers know the foreign games and are more comfortable with foreign players because they know their system, style, personality and what makes them tick. A foreign manager is hardly going to buy a nolan/obrien or noble , players he knows nothing about.

[Stuttgart88]

There was a great documentary on BBC about Swansea's rise. When they took a risk on their player Martinez he told the chairman that he swore he could get out of the lower divisions by playing sophisticated, continental football. It was quite a visionary thing on the part of both club and Martinez.

Wrt the quality of players coming through I'm relaxed on one hand, concerned on the other. I think we'll always produce a bunch of decent enough players but we're relying on luck or a star to emerge.

We can't keep relying on English clubs taking a chance on our better players though, given that they are also now looking at the better underage players from all over the world. We need to change Irish football's institutions and structures so we can be more self sufficient.

[Crosby87]

You mean change Republic of Ireland institutions.

[SkStu]

I have said for a long time that the days of Jack Charltons statement that he would only pick first choice premiership players for the squad (I.e. If you're on the bench or at a lower level you better buck up) are long, long gone. As supporters we have failed to readjust our expectations in the meantime but specifically since the early 00s.

While we will hopefully continue to have a majority of our squad as premiership players, if not automatic starters, we need to accept that a) the rest will be upper Championship level players and b) we should accept and welcome the fact that our prospects in that 17-23 year category will break through at lower divisions. It is just a dose of realism.

And as I've said even longer is that our own destiny would be aided by a thriving domestic league providing a) young, experienced talent to foreign leagues and b) less realistically maybe but a couple of regular options for the senior squad. The responsibility for that falls squarely on the FAI. But let's not belabour that argument too much.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Let's not be overtly dramatic. Netherlands are one of the powerhouses in International football and a sizable chunk of their squad are playing in the Eredivisie, which isn't any better than The Championship outside of 3 or 4 teams. One of their highest profile players is currently in a relegation battle in Germany.

The teams that would be in or around Ireland's level all have players of a similar/lower standard to ours playing at a similar/lower level fleshing out their squads.

If we screw up in this Qualifying campaign, it isn't because we don't have the players.

The players, and everyone else, have to take some responsibility now and rise to the big occasions. It's just a pity that Trapattoni has set belief that we can contend with big teams back another 5 or 6 years.

[Charlie Darwin]

I have said for a long time that the days of Jack Charltons statement that he would only pick first choice premiership players for the squad (I.e. If you're on the bench or at a lower level you better buck up) are long, long gone. As supporters we have failed to readjust our expectations in the meantime but specifically since the early 00s.

While we will hopefully continue to have a majority of our squad as premiership players, if not automatic starters, we need to accept that a) the rest will be upper Championship level players and b) we should accept and welcome the fact that our prospects in that 17-23 year category will break through at lower divisions. It is just a dose of realism.

And as I've said even longer is that our own destiny would be aided by a thriving domestic league providing a) young, experienced talent to foreign leagues and b) less realistically maybe but a couple of regular options for the senior squad. The responsibility for that falls squarely on the FAI. But let's not belabour that argument too much.
I think the problem is that Irish football fans want to see us produce great players but they're not prepared to do their part to see it happen. They want to see the results, not the process. They'll sing James McClean's name from the stands and call Trap senile for not picking him, but they're not interested in watching him tear it up for Derry, or Seamus Coleman for Sligo, etc. I don't have any expectations whatsoever for Keith Fahey bringing in the fans at Pat's, despite the fact any football fan should want to watch that team with our without Fats. That's the fundamental problem in Irish football - people want to see the best, but they don't want to see the transition.

[SkStu]

Amen to that brudder.

It's not the Irish fans fault of course. It would be lovely to be able to rely solely on England to develop our players but unfortunately a combination of serious changes in European football markets and serious shortsightedness and negligence by the FAI has led us down this path.

Where there is culpability is, as you say, a collective failure to acknowledge, adjust and knuckle down.

But let's not belabour this point too much... ;)

[CraftyToePoke]

Let's not be overtly dramatic. Netherlands are one of the powerhouses in International football and a sizable chunk of their squad are playing in the Eredivisie, which isn't any better than The Championship outside of 3 or 4 teams.

Do you compare it to the Championship in terms of profile as a league or the standard of it ?

[Charlie Darwin]

Amen to that brudder.

It's not the Irish fans fault of course. It would be lovely to be able to rely solely on England to develop our players but unfortunately a combination of serious changes in European football markets and serious shortsightedness and negligence by the FAI has led us down this path.

Where there is culpability is, as you say, a collective failure to acknowledge, adjust and knuckle down.

But let's not belabour this point too much... ;)
I'm not sticking up for the FAI, but where exactly is the money supposed to come from? We all see talk about the FAI developing centres of excellence or whatever, but do we expect five home internationals a year to pay for it? The biggest impediment to the success of the Irish football team is the apathy of the fans.

[tricky_colour]

I assume Joey O'Brien is injured. The much maligned Green and Cox maintain their places. Not sure what Daryl Murphy adds. Can't remember when he got his last cap but it was a while ago and his scoring rate is very poor for a striker. Only really Andy Keogh and Conor Sammon miss out from the Trap era although Keogh had been dropped I think from his last few squads. Hendrick isn't starting for Derby (came on as a sub against Wednesday) and had been out with an injury for a while. He'll be back.

Just been looking at his scoring, and decided to look at everyone else relevant as well


Keane...16 in 23 season avg 0.69 career avg 0.36 (excluding galaxy games)
Stokes. 11 in 37 season avg 0.30 career avg 0.37
Cox..... 8 in 31 season avg 0.26 career avg 0.29
Murphy.. 8 in 31 season avg 0.26 career avg 0.16
Doyle... 5 in 32 season avg 0.16 career avg 0.27
Long.... 6 in 26 season avg 0.23 career avg 0.25
Walter.. 3 in 33 season avg 0.09 career avg 0.18

Worth mentioning Coleman has 6 in 33!!
Andy Reid 10 in 36 avg 0.28 career avg 0.12

It's a bit more complicated when you take account of the strength of the league and position played.
So if you are looking for goals you are probably looking at Long Cox, or maybe you just clicked on the wrong link ;)

[SkStu]

I'm not sticking up for the FAI, but where exactly is the money supposed to come from? We all see talk about the FAI developing centres of excellence or whatever, but do we expect five home internationals a year to pay for it? The biggest impediment to the success of the Irish football team is the apathy of the fans.

The FAI used to have money, quite a bit of it. This is not a recent development. I think the shortsightedness of the FAI fuelled and legitimized the apathy of the fans. There's probably no one group to point the finger solely at (except Jean-Marc Bosman ;) )

[tricky_colour]

http://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/ipswich-town/martin_o_neill_explains_reasons_behind_recalling_i pswich_town_s_daryl_murphy_for_republic_of_ireland _clash_with_serbia_1_3344476

It seem Murphy was selected because O'Neil went to Ipswich to see McGoldrick but he got injured
so rather than waste the cost of the trip he got the next best thing.

(I jest somewhat ;))

[gastric]

I'm not sticking up for the FAI, but where exactly is the money supposed to come from? We all see talk about the FAI developing centres of excellence or whatever, but do we expect five home internationals a year to pay for it? The biggest impediment to the success of the Irish football team is the apathy of the fans.

Charlie,

I can't agree with you on the use of the word 'apathy'. People don't buy mediocre products and what Trap offered was very mediocre. Maybe O'Neill can change this by being successful. The LOI needs a absolute makeover as it too is considered to be a mediocre product by many potential supporters. As you implied, there is no money or the potential of money to fund a centre of excellence, unless we can get someone like Denis O'Brien to fund such a venture.

[Stuttgart88]

I do often wonder if it is even within the FAIs power to change Irish football, the power of the entrenched interests is so great. On the other hand I suspect the FAI empowers these interests by leaving them do their thing while the FAI is left alone to do theirs. A Faustian pact between the FAI and the problematic factions.

[paul_oshea]

There will be no political fighting to secure a favourable order of games once the groups are decided in the morning.
Instead, a UEFA system will determine the fixture list later in the day, with matches spread out across what is being styled as the 'Week of Football' – meaning that ties around the continent will be staggered from Thursday to Tuesday for double header windows in the qualifying phase. Ireland could end up involved in qualifiers on Sunday and Monday nights, a major departure from the norm.

[Crosby87]

Dunne call up short lived?
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/richard-dunne-s-return-looks-set-to-be-short-lived-for-ireland-1.1699183

[SwanVsDalton]

Ah SvD come on you didnt think he really said that? And how would TOWK know?

It's Rafa - I'd believe anything with that guy! Thought it might've been public knowledge that slipped by me.


There will be no political fighting to secure a favourable order of games once the groups are decided in the morning.
Instead, a UEFA system will determine the fixture list later in the day, with matches spread out across what is being styled as the 'Week of Football' – meaning that ties around the continent will be staggered from Thursday to Tuesday for double header windows in the qualifying phase. Ireland could end up involved in qualifiers on Sunday and Monday nights, a major departure from the norm.

So the fixtures out by tomorrow evening then? Quick turnaround. I'd forgotten about this 'week of football' idea, will be interesting to see how this looks.