O'Shea and Miller start in midfield tonight

[eirebhoy]

For those of you who can't choose which match to watch I thought I'd let you know that O'Shea will start in the centre and Miller on the right for United tonight. Finnan doesn't start for Liverpool.

[tricky_colour]

Yea Finnan starts on the bench, hadly surprising as LIverpool
won at Fulham without him.
It will be nice to see how Millar and O'Shea get on in the midfield
and whether they are both on still on the pitch at full time!

[thejollyrodger]

Miller had a very quite start but started to come into the game a lot more. He looks good on the ball, neat and tidy as they say, still too early to judge him IMO.

[eirebhoy]

That performance was a typical O'Shea performance, not bad but nowhere near Man Utd's standards.

Miller did well, should get another start soon enough.

[Superhoops]

....a typical O'Shea performance, not bad but nowhere near Man Utd's standards......
After early promise eighteen months/two years ago, he has just not progressed. I fear if he stays at MU he will turn into another Phil Neville, a decent enough utility player, who can fill in several positions but not good enough to be first choice in one regular position. Ferguson has played him left back, centre back, midfield. What is his best position? I don't think even he knows.

This chopping and changing is definitely affecting his form for Ireland. He is probably only 4th choice centre back for Ireland, if that. At best, he is 5th or 6th choice for a midfield berth. It is only our lack of a genuine left back that is keeping him in. I think Richard Dunne would be a better choice as he has better defensive skills than O'Shea, something from which Damian Duff is likely to benefit from.

I have suggested before that O'Shea might do a job for Ireland up front. He has probably been more effective for MU in their opponents penalty box than in their own. It would also give us an option of a bigger man up front if the Robbie/Clinton route does not work. Recently we have depended on Gary Doherty to play this role and although Doherty can never be faulted for effort, I think O'Shea offers more.

Perhaps O'Shea, and consequently Ireland, would benefit from him moving away from MU! For Ireland's sake I want him to succeed and that will only happen if he is given a run in a settled position, something that does not look likely at MU.

[McCanada]

I agree about O'Shea being 'built' for striker...It always appeared to me that most any other team except a massive one like ManU would have looked at the raw materials : Great size, decent ball skills, pace - and would have seen him as striker material. If he were for an Everton or Fulham, we very well may have been talking him up as an international striker, but at his age, I can't see such a conversion taking place.

He's got all the skills for centre-back, but I feel he's not suited to the fast- paced English game...Much like our man Hartey, he may be best suited for the continent; Where Harte is slow afoot, it appears (at least to me) that O'Shea is a little slow, or indecisive upstairs.

[thejollyrodger]

O Shea looked like he put in another average performance. I cant see him settling in on 1 postion, defintely not left back because of Heinza (or however its spelt) and he doesnt look good enough in the centre of the park to get a automatic start.

O Shea looks ok now, but for his own development and for the good of Ireland he should look about moving to another club where he gets regular first team football in one position.

[eirebhoy]

I have suggested before that O'Shea might do a job for Ireland up front. He has probably been more effective for MU in their opponents penalty box than in their own.
O'Shea must be one of the worst headers of the ball in the premiership for his height bracket. He goes up for the vast majority of set pieces for United and has only scored 2 goals. I don't know if you could put it solely down to his heading, probably more to do with positioning. Look at someone like Bobo Balde of Celtic, he wins the vast majority of balls when he goes up to the opponents box.

Just a couple of point on Miller, he regularly loses possession from behind and he also needs to be more aggressive. I don't understand how a player could dive and Miller just walks off like he actually fouled him, I'd be screaming at the player like O'Shea was tonight.

[gspain]

I thought Miller had a good game altohugh lookied a bit lost in the first half out on the right.

O'Shea was ok but not the player of 2 seasons ago. Still our best option at loeft back although I'd bring Hartey back as backup.

[Superhoops]

O'Shea was ok but not the player of 2 seasons ago. Still our best option at loeft back although I'd bring Hartey back as backup.

IMO, the main role a full back is to defend. Among the primary skills a good defender must have are (a) the ability to turn - for the ball played in or the man running in behind you, (b) the ability to tackle (c) the ability to attack the ball (d) the ability to pick up an opponent and (e) to refrain from ball watching. I would suggest that neither O'Shea nor Harte can put ticks in many (if any) of these boxes.

In about the last 10/15 games Harte played for us, every team had him worked out early and the main threat from opponents always came down their right wing, remember Iran in WC play-offs and our four games in Japan/Korea!

The same is happening with O'Shea. Against France, their only threat came from their right side, how many times did Duff end up defending in our last third of the field?

I still think Richard Dunne or even Alan Maybury are better option at LB.

[1MickCollins]

After early promise eighteen months/two years ago, he has just not progressed. I fear if he stays at MU he will turn into another Phil Neville, a decent enough utility player, who can fill in several positions but not good enough to be first choice in one regular position. Ferguson has played him left back, centre back, midfield. What is his best position? I don't think even he knows.

This chopping and changing is definitely affecting his form for Ireland. He is probably only 4th choice centre back for Ireland, if that. At best, he is 5th or 6th choice for a midfield berth. It is only our lack of a genuine left back that is keeping him in. I think Richard Dunne would be a better choice as he has better defensive skills than O'Shea, something from which Damian Duff is likely to benefit from.

I have suggested before that O'Shea might do a job for Ireland up front. He has probably been more effective for MU in their opponents penalty box than in their own. It would also give us an option of a bigger man up front if the Robbie/Clinton route does not work. Recently we have depended on Gary Doherty to play this role and although Doherty can never be faulted for effort, I think O'Shea offers more.

Perhaps O'Shea, and consequently Ireland, would benefit from him moving away from MU! For Ireland's sake I want him to succeed and that will only happen if he is given a run in a settled position, something that does not look likely at MU.

I agree and have said the same things in the past, I think he has plateaued at ManU, he needs the room to grow and a move could be the making of him if he can decide on a position. Fact is each time I see him he impresses me less and less.

[Peadar]

He looks good on the ball, neat and tidy as they say,

Nothing "neat and tidy" about that stupid challenge which earned him a yellow card! :rolleyes:
Had to laugh at Ronaldo giving out to O'Shea for hitting a brutal cross.

Arsene Wenger will be a happy man if this Man Yoo team turn up on Sunday.

[thejollyrodger]

on the ball i said.
as for tackling. I would rather see him doing it and picking up the odd yellow card than ball watching Josh style.

[cullenswood]

I agree that at United Sheasy will never be a first choice left back (Heinze looks like a class act), right back (Neville will probably be one of those players that plays until he is 40) or centre back (Fergie definitely doesn't trust him there, and is about 5th choice there.

He is getting a good few games in midfield lately, and if he starts there on Sunday (which I very much doubt he will) then it would be reasonable to assume that Fergie sees him there in the long term, and he should get his finger out, and start concentrating, and try and make himself into a top class centre midfielder.

I dont think, however, that he will be a regular anywhere at ManU, so he should take the plunge and leave, and get first team ball, in any postion. It would be a hard decision, but he would reap the rewards in the long term.

[Colm55]

Reading all the above on JOSH there's little more to add but I thought Liam Miller had a great second half, he saw little of the ball in the first half as the ball was not played out to him as much. During the second he was winning ball, holding it up, getting back to help G Neville out when Prague were attacking, he was also getting crosses into the box, he wasn't afraid to let the czech team know he was there and I was left wondering when AF decided to introduce Ronaldo to the game, if he felt Miller was contributing more then Giggs, thus substituting Giggs ? ?

[Donal81]

I don't understand why there is so much criticism being applied to John O'Shea. He clearly hasn't amazed us like he did a few seasons ago but take things in context. He's a good player who is still very, very young and is still learning. He has his flaws but what's to say these can't be remedied? Sometimes, posts on this website in relation to O'Shea are as reasonable as those insisting that Robbie Keane is crap. Players are paid huge wages and Irish players represent us so they should be held up to criticism but there is no excuse for creating some sort of bandwagon. He's a good player with faults and he's not as bad as some people seem to be saying. Give him some time, for f*ck's sake.

[Stuttgart88]

I don't understand why there is so much criticism...
He's a good player with faults and he's not as bad as some people seem to be saying. Give him some time, for f*ck's sake.
Hear Hear.

I thought he looked really good as right back against Poland in that boring friendly. I've no problem whatsoever with him at left back, I'd be happy with him as cover at centre-back and here's hoping he can develop into a central midfielder like McGrath & Lawrenson have done in the past.

[Superhoops]

John O'Shea......... He's a good player who is still very, very young and is still learning..........Give him some time, for f*ck's sake.
He is 23 and will be 24 when this season over. Not sure how much time you envisage he needs but most 'special' players have made their mark by this age.

When he came into the MU team two seasons ago and started so spectacularly, most people, myself included, thought O'Shea was one of the players around which future Irish teams would be built. I had previously seen him play several times for our U-21's and after he returned to MU from his loan spell at Royal Antwerp? he certainly looked a class player.

In these two years we have seen several players progress and blossom into half decent players, Andy O'Brien and Andy Reid for starters, yet O'Shea appears to have gone backwards. The big question is why? Is he not good enough? Is his role at MU stiffling his development? Hence the reason for the debate and not for having a pop at him.

I hope he proves myself and all the other doubters wrong!

[drummerboy]

He is 23 and will be 24 when this season over. Not sure how much time you envisage he needs but most 'special' players have made their mark by this age.



How old do you reckon Paul McGrath was when he made his ROI debut? As far as I can remember he was about 25-26.

[thejollyrodger]

Josh is only going to develop as a player, gain confidence etc in one position. He has to nail down one position unless he want to be another "gary neville jack of all trades, master of none".

If he isnt getting a regular start in the same position in Man Utd then I think he should look elsewhere. 24 isnt too old but he isnt 19 either. He should make a decision by the end of this season by the latest for his own good IMO ;)

[Superhoops]

How old do you reckon Paul McGrath was when he made his ROI debut? As far as I can remember he was about 25-26.
He was 25 when he got his first cap in 1985, having joined MU in 1983?.

McGrath's route into top flight football was completely different from O'Shea's. If O'Shea turn out to be even half as good as McGrath he will be a big success.

[Donal81]

[QUOTE=Superhoops]He is 23 and will be 24 when this season over. Not sure how much time you envisage he needs but most 'special' players have made their mark by this age...In these two years we have seen several players progress and blossom into half decent players, Andy O'Brien and Andy Reid for starters, yet O'Shea appears to have gone backwards. The big question is why? Is he not good enough? Is his role at MU stiffling his development? Hence the reason for the debate and not for having a pop at him. QUOTE]


Jesus, 23 years of age. Players tend to reach their peak several years after an explosive but unsustainable start to their careers. Keano became a true legend of football in the 1999-2002 seasons, leading up to the Saipan world cup. He'd been with Man U for over 5 years at this point and was certainly a lot older than 23. While O'Shea is obviously not of Keane's calibre, he's still learning and, I believe, will become a better player in time, I don't think he's levelled off at Man Utd. Andy O'Brien and Andy Reid have shown real potential but who is still playing for what was up until very, very recently one of the strongest teams in the world? I'm not saying he's brilliant or a future leader of Man U or Ireland but he's a good player who still has bags of potential, which is important to remember.

[eirebhoy]

I didn't want to open a new thread for this but is anyone watching the Chelsea match on Sky? I just found out that RTE are showing highlights of the Arsenal match so I won't get to see how Duff does. I'll be watching Celtic, if anyone's watching Chelsea let us know how Duffer does. I hate not getting to see him play, surely more people would want to see Duffer than Arsenal. :mad:

Cheers.

[thejollyrodger]

Im watching the Celtic match too. Terrible shame that they arent showing the Chelsea match. Another shame is why dont they show the best match on tonight - Barca Vs Milan !!! :confused:

[eirebhoy]

Duff set up the second goal from a free kick.

Duff can feck off for the moment though, Come on Celtic!!!

[zinedineontour]

Duff set up the second goal from a free kick.

Duff can feck off for the moment though, Come on Celtic!!!

How the duffer is doing is a lot more important than a second rate scottish side

[Peadar]

Come on Celtic!!!

The most consistant team in the Champions League.
Conceded 3 in every game so far. :p

[Stuttgart88]

I was at the Chelsea match last night. Duff was OK, but not one of his better games. He protects the ball well and got bundled over for free kicks a few times as a result. Sometimes a bit leniently.

He was subbed after about 75 mins though the game was pretty much won by then. He put in a great ball for Gudjohnson's goal. He had a great opportunity to shoot in the first half but opted to take the ball on a bit further instead.

The pattern of the game was interesting. Chelsea went ahead without even trying, an easy goal from a corner. They then had a few chances but Moscow gradually took a grip on the game. Like the English national side Chelsea conceded possession easily & could only put 3 passes together without running out of options. The Russians could keep the ball forever but couldn't get past a very good defence. When they did the Chelsea 'keeper saved everything. He looks a real class act, as does John Terry. Bridge (the answer to England's left sided problem!) was rubbish.

Other than their defence Chelsea didn't really impress me. Kezman was a disaster.

Did McGeady feature at all last night?

[inexile]

mcgeady came on as a sub last night didnt see how he did but it was 2-0 at that stage good to see him getting a run out

[Colm55]

Did McGeady feature at all last night?

He did indeed, came on in place of Juniniho in about the 70th minute, not long enough to make much of an impression seeing as celtic were down and out at that stage, but i thought he had a few good touches, looked confident on the ball and has plenty of potential which can only develop given his tender age of 18. I was recently informed by some celtic fans who are actually scottish that the general concensus is that he is the next big thing at celtic!

[eirebhoy]

How the duffer is doing is a lot more important than a second rate scottish side
I support Ireland about 10 times more than I do Celtic but you are crazy if you think the performance of one Irish player is more important than watching your team in the CL.

BTW, Celtic are a top rate Scottish team, second rate European team. :) Thats enough on Celtic for a while though. :(

[Peadar]

I was recently informed by some celtic fans who are actually scottish that the general concensus is that he is the next big thing at celtic!

That's Hartson off his pedestal then! :p :D

[fergalr]

I was at the Chelsea match last night. Duff was OK, but not one of his better games. He protects the ball well and got bundled over for free kicks a few times as a result. Sometimes a bit leniently.

He was subbed after about 75 mins though the game was pretty much won by then. He put in a great ball for Gudjohnson's goal. He had a great opportunity to shoot in the first half but opted to take the ball on a bit further instead.

The pattern of the game was interesting. Chelsea went ahead without even trying, an easy goal from a corner. They then had a few chances but Moscow gradually took a grip on the game. Like the English national side Chelsea conceded possession easily & could only put 3 passes together without running out of options. The Russians could keep the ball forever but couldn't get past a very good defence. When they did the Chelsea 'keeper saved everything. He looks a real class act, as does John Terry. Bridge (the answer to England's left sided problem!) was rubbish.

Other than their defence Chelsea didn't really impress me. Kezman was a disaster.

I was over at the game as well and agree totally with all of the above. Have to add that Duffer worked very hard tracking back all night - his opposite number was a handful. As noted, he wasted one great opportunity to shoot - if he has one weakness its his lack of goals.

[Peadar]

if he has one weakness its his lack of goals.

Isn't that part of the requisite criteria to be a Chelsea player this season?

[eirebhoy]

I was over at the game as well and agree totally with all of the above. Have to add that Duffer worked very hard tracking back all night - his opposite number was a handful. As noted, he wasted one great opportunity to shoot - if he has one weakness its his lack of goals.
He scored 6 last season. He's just not suited to the way Mourinho is playing him IMO. I remember saying last season that Duff is one of the most consistent player in world football, I wouldn't say that now.

[Slash/ED]

if he has one weakness its his lack of goals.

I'd have said Duffs goal average for a winger is very impressive. Not this season mind you but this ones barley started, overall it's excellent.

[eirebhoy]

In his last season with Blackburn he got 11 goals in 30 games.

[tricky_colour]

Well he won't be getting many for less than 1 goal a game Chelsea
I wouldn't think. (8 goals in 9 games).